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ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!

Greetings @Johann

The verses tell us what God has given us, and that we who believe on the Name of Jesus, may know we have eternal life and believe in Jesus Name.

But as we also know, ALL scripture is God breathed, so to be saved in the first place we must be Born Again of water (baptism) and Spirit (from above). We must have repented, we must have crucified our old self and declared our faith, with our lips and from our heart.

As for the word believe on its own, this is open to many thoughts, even the devil believes there is Jesus, he even tried to tempt him but failed.

This is why it is so important to accept ALL scripture and never focus on one set of scriptures against another. John 15 is a lovely chapter, Jesus preaches, as he does in parable form, He gives a very clear picture, we are grafted in and can be pruned out.

To believe OSAS, is to excluded what Jesus tells us in John 15.

To accept all scripture is God breathed, which it is, is to know clearly when we have repented and given our all to God through Jesus, we are grafted into the vine, we are promised salvation, but we must continue to abide in Christ, to remain in his love, to obey his commands and bear fruit, good fruit, for God from whom all blessings flow.

In His Love

Greetings @Johann

I am saying, those who refer to OSAS are incorrect and that it is dangerous to think such, even worse to preach it.

The reason I confirm my disagreement to the idea of OSAS, is clear, John 15:1-17 tells me otherwise.

We are grafted into the vine when born again from above, but as Jesus clearly states we can be pruned out of the vine. There are no half way points, we are in the vine or we are not, we have received the promise of salvation or due to OUR falling away into sin, we do not bear fruit for God do are cut out.

To reply to your question about my salvation; I am sure of my salvation, I love the Lord as much today as I did from day one of giving my life to Him, I believe in my heart I love Him more today than I did thirty years ago.

How can I be sure of my salvation? Because Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, I come to God through Him, I love the Lord more than my wife, myself, our children or anything else. I follow God’s Word, constantly searching the scriptures, yes I make errors and sin but I am forgiven. I abide in Christ and He abides in me, I try as much as I can to bear good fruit for the father through Jesus. Simply put, all of us who do these things daily have no concern for our salvation. How can we be 100% sure, his spirit reveals it to our spirit, and God has said it in His Word.

The only ones that need to be concerned are, the totally lost souls, and those who gave their life to the Lord and do not abide in Him, who do not follow and obey His commands, those whose love has grown cold, those who no longer bear good fruit.

Once the sap does not run through the branches God will prune them out. Why does the sap stop running through the branch? Because of sin, the sap in Jesus parable refers to the Righteous Holy Spirit, abiding with our spirit, but if we return to sin, we are not abiding in Christ, the fruit stops, the branch, which could be our branch if we fall away from abiding in Christ and into sin, has to be pruned out so as not to affect the who vine.

Jesus’ parables are amazing, so graphical, he gives us a picture so clear we cannot but fail to see The Truth He speaks, thank you Lord.

Shalom my friend

Jesus loves you I do too

Which immediately bring these scriptures to mind...
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


For we are His workmanship
A reason why no man should glory. If we are God's workmanship, our salvation cannot be of ourselves. His is emphatic. His workmanship are we.
Created (κτισθέντες)
See on Joh_1:3. The verb originally means to make habitable, to people. Hence to found. God is called κτίστης creator, 1Pe_4:19, and ὁ κτίσας he that created, Rom_1:25. Compare Rev_4:11. Κτίσις is used of the whole sum of created things, Mar_10:6; Rom_8:22.
Afore prepared (προητοίμασεν)
Rev, more correctly, prepared. Made ready beforehand. God prearranged a sphere of moral action for us to walk in. Not only are works the necessary outcome of faith, but the character and direction of the works are made ready by God.
That we should walk
In order that; to the end that.
Vincent.

Shalom to you and family
Johann
 
That is the key point brother, is it not.

Gods will not forsake us, it is we who could forsake him, and some do.



Amen sister, continually believe on Him, from faith to faith. That is to abide in the vine, continually. He abides in us, we must abide in Him. He will not forsake us, but we could forsake Him!

If we do not abide in Him, we are abiding more in the world, we are abiding more in sin. The fruit in the vine starts to reduce and decay.
We are warned, the Father will cut away these unfruitful members, they will be removed, thrown away to wither and be burnt.

He has not forsaking us, it is because we who were grafted into the vine, to abide, obey and bear fruit, have instead chosen to abide less, obey less and as a result we no longer bear the good fruit we did.

The Father has no option but to cut out the unproductive parts because if he doesn’t the vine as a whole could suffer, he prunes out the bad to encourage the good.

Thanks be to God
'Every man's work shall be made manifest:
for the day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.'
(1Cor. 3:13-15)

Hello @Brother Paul,

Thank you for your response.

The 'word' quoted above is clear that the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, who has been saved by God's grace, will be judged according to his service, and that there is the possibility of suffering loss, but that is in regard to reward. The gift of life that has been given by God to Him, will not be taken away from him, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). He will live, that is assured, but he may not reign.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
'Every man's work shall be made manifest:
for the day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.'
(1Cor. 3:13-15)

Hello @Brother Paul,

Thank you for your response.

The 'word' quoted above is clear that the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, who has been saved by God's grace, will be judged according to his service, and that there is the possibility of suffering loss, but that is in regard to reward. The gift of life that has been given by God to Him, will not be taken away from him, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). He will live, that is assured, but he may not reign.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Without repentance (ametamelēta). See note on 2Co_7:10 for this word (a privative and metamelomai, to be sorry afterwards). It is not ametanoēton (Rom_2:5) from a privative and metanoeō, to change one’s mind. God is not sorry for his gifts to and calling of the Jews (Rom_9:4.).

It is revealed in fire (en puri apokaluptetai). Apparently “the day” is the subject of the verb, not the work, not the Lord. See 2Th_1:8; 2Th_2:8. This metaphor of fire was employed in the O.T. (Dan_7:9.; Mal_4:1) and by John the Baptist (Mat_3:12; Luk_3:16.). It is a metaphor that must not be understood as purgatorial, but simple testing (Ellicott) as every fire tests (the fire itself will test, to pur auto dokimasei) the quality of the material used in the building, of what sort it is (hopoion estin), qualitative relative pronoun. Men today find, alas, that some of the fireproof buildings are not fireproof when the fire actually comes.


Shalom
Johann
 
'Every man's work shall be made manifest:
for the day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.'
(1Cor. 3:13-15)

Hello @Brother Paul,

Thank you for your response.

The 'word' quoted above is clear that the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, who has been saved by God's grace, will be judged according to his service, and that there is the possibility of suffering loss, but that is in regard to reward. The gift of life that has been given by God to Him, will not be taken away from him, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). He will live, that is assured, but he may not reign.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Greetings,

I am reminded of the passage where we are informed that there are vessels for honour and dishonour.

Is that similar to what you are sharing, Sister?


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings all,

stony, shallow ground and weeds, thorns and cares,
Are those perhaps some who may have said, YES! but turned away. even though they had received?

==============
I notice a slight mix up with words in the thread.
Does Believe/Belief = Faith?

I am reminding of those whom our Lord praised commended for their faith.... were they saved?

Likewise, let us not forget that while the Pharisees and other members of the council etc, believed and had faith, they also were found wanting.

If nothing else, while writing and posting, consider yourselves and see if you are found wanting in any area of your commitment to serve the Lord and therefore decide, do you love Him?

I notice that we discuss faith and obedience and belief but not a shed about love. Is something missing?

Not all who serve do so for love sake.

Talking to youngsters, recently, about doing things.... and it surely applies to grown ups if it is relevant to children...
... when we do something for our Father, is it that He will be pleased with us or... that we might make Him pleased?

Post in the bond of peace


Bless you ....><>
 
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Greetings all,

stony, shallow ground and weeds, thorns and cares,
Are those perhaps some who may have said, YES! but turned away. even though they had received?

==============
I notice a slight mix up with words in the thread.
Does Believe/Belief = Faith?

I am reminding of those whom our Lord praised for their faith.... were they saved?

Likewise, let us not forget that while the Pharisees and other members of the council etc, believed and had faith, they also were found wanting.

If nothing else, while writing and posting, consider yourselves and see if you are found wanting in any area of your commitment to serve the Lord and therefore decide, do you love Him?

I notice that we discuss faith and obedience and belief but not a shed about love. Is something missing?

Not all who serve do so for love sake.

Talking to youngsters, recently, about doing things.... and it surely applies to grown ups if it is relevant to children...
... when we do something for our Father, is it that He will be pleased with us or... that we might make Him pleased?

Post in the bond of peace


Bless you ....><>
1Co 13:1 IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God's love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
1Co 13:3 Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or in order that I may glory, but have not love (God's love in me), I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
1Co 13:5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
1Co 13:6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
1Co 13:7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
1Co 13:8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
1Co 13:9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
1Co 13:10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
1Co 13:12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].
1Co 13:13 And so faith, hope, love abide [faith--conviction and belief respecting man's relation to God and divine things; hope--joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love--true affection for God and man, growing out of God's love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.
AMPC

Gal_5:6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.

Gal_5:13 For you, brethren, were [indeed] called to freedom; only [do not let your] freedom be an incentive to your flesh and an opportunity or excuse [for selfishness], but through love you should serve one another.

Gal_5:14 For the whole Law [concerning human relationships] is complied with in the one precept, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Lev_19:18]

Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

Eph_1:4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

Eph_1:5 For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]--

Eph_1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (the people of God),

Eph_2:4 But God--so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,

Eph_3:17 May Christ through your faith [actually] dwell (settle down, abide, make His permanent home) in your hearts! May you be rooted deep in love and founded securely on love,

Eph_3:18 That you may have the power and be strong to apprehend and grasp with all the saints [God's devoted people, the experience of that love] what is the breadth and length and height and depth [of it];

Eph_3:19 [That you may really come] to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!

Eph_4:2 Living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.

Eph_4:15 Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

Eph_4:16 For because of Him the whole body (the church, in all its various parts), closely joined and firmly knit together by the joints and ligaments with which it is supplied, when each part [with power adapted to its need] is working properly [in all its functions], grows to full maturity, building itself up in love.

Eph_5:2 And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance. [Eze_20:41]

Eph_5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Eph_5:28 Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.

Eph_5:33 However, let each man of you [without exception] love his wife as [being in a sense] his very own self; and let the wife see that she respects and reverences her husband [that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates, and esteems him; and that she defers to him, praises him, and loves and admires him exceedingly]. [1Pe_3:2]

Eph_6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love joined with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

Eph_6:24 Grace (God's undeserved favor) be with all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with undying and incorruptible [love]. Amen (so let it be).

Php_1:8 For God is my witness how I long for and pursue you all with love, in the tender mercy of Christ Jesus [Himself]!

Php_1:9 And this I pray: that your love may abound yet more and more and extend to its fullest development in knowledge and all keen insight [that your love may display itself in greater depth of acquaintance and more comprehensive discernment],

Php_1:16 The latter [proclaim Christ] out of love, because they recognize and know that I am [providentially] put here for the defense of the good news (the Gospel).

Php_2:1 SO BY whatever [appeal to you there is in our mutual dwelling in Christ, by whatever] strengthening and consoling and encouraging [our relationship] in Him [affords], by whatever persuasive incentive there is in love, by whatever participation in the [Holy] Spirit [we share], and by whatever depth of affection and compassionate sympathy,

Php_2:2 Fill up and complete my joy by living in harmony and being of the same mind and one in purpose, having the same love, being in full accord and of one harmonious mind and intention.

Php_4:1 THEREFORE, MY brethren, whom I love and yearn to see, my delight and crown (wreath of victory), thus stand firm in the Lord, my beloved.

Col_1:4 For we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus [the leaning of your entire human personality on Him in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness] and of the love which you [
have and show] for all the saints (God's consecrated ones),

Col_1:8 Also he has informed us of your love in the [Holy] Spirit.

Col_1:13 [The Father] has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

Col_2:2 [For my concern is] that their hearts may be braced (comforted, cheered, and encouraged) as they are knit together in love, that they may come to have all the abounding wealth and blessings of assured conviction of understanding, and that they may become progressively more intimately acquainted with and may know more definitely and accurately and thoroughly that mystic secret of God, [which is] Christ (the Anointed One).

Col_3:14 And above all these [put on] love and enfold yourselves with the bond of perfectness [which binds everything together completely in ideal harmony].

Col_3:19 Husbands, love your wives [be affectionate and sympathetic with them] and do not be harsh or bitter or resentful toward them.

1Th_1:3 Recalling unceasingly before our God and Father your work energized by faith and service motivated by love and unwavering hope in [the return of] our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [1Th_1:10]

1Th_3:6 But now that Timothy has just come back to us from [his visit to] you and has brought us the good news of [the steadfastness of] your faith and [the warmth of your] love, and [reported] how kindly you cherish a constant and affectionate remembrance of us [and that you are] longing to see us as we [are to see] you,

1Th_3:12 And may the Lord make you to increase and excel and overflow in love for one another and for all people, just as we also do for you,

1Th_4:9 But concerning brotherly love [for all other Christians], you have no need to have anyone write you, for you yourselves have been [personally] taught by God to love one another.
1Th_4:10 And indeed you already are [extending and displaying your love] to all the brethren throughout Macedonia. But we beseech and earnestly exhort you, brethren, that you excel [in this matter] more and more,

Absolutely corrrect @Br. Bear

Question is...do we daily "love" each other as we should?
Are we keeping in step 24/7 in the Holy Spirit?
Some transparency would be appreciated, as I am one of those who have a problem with "temper" issues and are not walking in the sphere of the Ruach 24/7....unless some here have already obtained sinless perfection, or perfection in all spheres of their lives?

Shalom
Johann
 
For we are His workmanship
A reason why no man should glory. If we are God's workmanship, our salvation cannot be of ourselves.

Greetings brother

Salvation is of God, totally.
Ephesians 2:4-7

I believe the context of the seven letters to the seven churches, is to show that not one is right with God, each was different, some were worse in God’s eyes than another, in fact only one came closing to being right in God’s eyes, the others were far from right. That should be a warning to each section of the ekklesia, there is hot or cold, no lukewarm, if we are not hot for God he will spew us from his mouth, how graphic is his explanation, to actually make God sick, that shows us how vile sin is in God’s sight.

Jesus describes our situation, when abiding, obeying and following his teaching as grafted into the vine, but warns as hot is opposite to cold, righteousness is opposite to sin, the consequences of failing to abide, obey and bear fruit, is to be pruned out of the vine, cut out, thrown out and burned.

In short if we are not walking with Christ, we are walking with the devil, there is no lukewarm, if we are not ‘practicing righteousness’ we are practicing, participating in sin.

Shalom
 
Greetings brother

Salvation is of God, totally.
Ephesians 2:4-7

I believe the context of the seven letters to the seven churches, is to show that not one is right with God, each was different, some were worse in God’s eyes than another, in fact only one came closing to being right in God’s eyes, the others were far from right. That should be a warning to each section of the ekklesia, there is hot or cold, no lukewarm, if we are not hot for God he will spew us from his mouth, how graphic is his explanation, to actually make God sick, that shows us how vile sin is in God’s sight.

Jesus describes our situation, when abiding, obeying and following his teaching as grafted into the vine, but warns as hot is opposite to cold, righteousness is opposite to sin, the consequences of failing to abide, obey and bear fruit, is to be pruned out of the vine, cut out, thrown out and burned.

In short if we are not walking with Christ, we are walking with the devil, there is no lukewarm, if we are not ‘practicing righteousness’ we are practicing, participating in sin.

Shalom
I fully concur with this short, powerful statement Brother Paul.
I keep my comments short and brief, for a reason.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 
'Every man's work shall be made manifest:
for the day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.'
(1Cor. 3:13-15)

Hello @Brother Paul,

Thank you for your response.

The 'word' quoted above is clear that the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, who has been saved by God's grace, will be judged according to his service, and that there is the possibility of suffering loss, but that is in regard to reward. The gift of life that has been given by God to Him, will not be taken away from him, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). He will live, that is assured, but he may not reign.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Greetings Chris,

It is true we will be judged, believers and unbelievers will both be judged; believers for all they have done for the Lord, bearing fruit in accordance with righteousness to bring Glory to God; unbelievers, which includes those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins.

Who is disobedient?
Every man, woman and child on earth, regardless of age, colour, tongue or tribe, Jew or gentile.

We are saved by Grace through Faith, it is a gift from God so we cannot boast or take credit for it.

Who can truly understand the mind of God?

How unsearchable are his judgements and his ways past finding out.

For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become his counsellor?
Or who has first given to him and it shall be repaid to him?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be Glory forever. Amen
Romans 11:33-36

In His Love
 
Greetings,

I am reminded of the passage where we are informed that there are vessels for honour and dishonour.

Is that similar to what you are sharing, Sister?


Bless you ....><>

You brought up a great point, the doctrine of election,...

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2Ti_2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Is the doctrine of election biblical?

Shalom
Johann
 
Greetings,

I am reminded of the passage where we are informed that there are vessels for honour and dishonour.

Is that similar to what you are sharing, Sister?


Bless you ....><>
'Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are His.
And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver,
but also of wood and of earth;
and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
If a man therefore purge himself from these,
he shall be a vessel unto honour,
sanctified, and meet for the master's use,
and prepared unto every good work.
(2Tim. 2:19-21)

Hello @Br.Bear,

I had not thought of that, but yes, thank you.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris
 
You brought up a great point, the doctrine of election,...

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2Ti_2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Is the doctrine of election biblical?

Shalom
Johann

Guess I will answer this myself....

ELECTION (Gk. eklogē, “choice,” a “picking out”).
Bible Meaning. This word in the Scriptures has three distinct applications. (1) To the
divine choice of nations or communities for the possession of special privileges with
reference to the performance of special services. Thus the Jews were “a chosen nation,” “the
elect.” Thus also in the NT, bodies of Christian people, or churches, are called “the elect.”

(2)
To the divine choice of individuals to a particular office or work. Thus Cyrus was elected of
God to bring about the rebuilding of the Temple, and thus the twelve were chosen to be
apostles and Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles.


(3) To the divine choice of individuals to
be the children of God, and therefore heirs of heaven.
It is with regard to election in this third sense that theological controversies have been
frequent and at times most fierce. Calvinists hold that the election of individuals to salvation
is absolute, unconditional, by virtue of an eternal divine decree.


Arminians regard election as
conditional upon repentance and faith; the decree of God is that all who truly repent of their

sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

But every responsible person
determines for himself whether or not he will repent and believe. Sufficient grace is bestowed
upon everyone to enable him to make the right decision.



The Calvinistic View.

The Westminster Confession, the standard of the Church of
Scotland and of the various Presbyterian churches of Europe and America, contains the
following statement: “God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His
own free will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby
neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the
liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. Although God
knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not
decreed anything because He foresaw its future, or as that which would come to pass upon
such conditions. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory some men and
angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death.
These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained are particularly and unchangeably
designed, and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or
diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of
the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel
and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere
free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of
them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving Him thereto; and all
to the praise of His glorious grace. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by
the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.
Therefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are
effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season; are justified,
adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other
redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect
only. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His
own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His
sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for
their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.”
In support of this doctrine several arguments are made by Calvinistic theologians: (1)
According to the Scriptures election is not of works but of grace; and that it is not of works
means that it is not what man does that determines whether he is to be one of the elect or not.
For the descendants of Adam this life is not a probation. They stood their probation in Adam
and do not stand each one for himself. (2) The sovereignty of God in electing men to
salvation is shown by the fact that repentance and faith are gifts from God. These fruits of His
Spirit are the consequences and signs of election and not its conditions. (3) The salvation that
is of grace must be of grace throughout. The element of works or human merit must not be
introduced at any point in the plan. And that would be the case if repentance and faith were
the conditions of election. (4) The system of doctrine called Calvinistic, Augustinian, Pauline,
should not be thus designated. That though taught clearly by Paul, particularly in Rom. 8:9, it
was taught also by others of the writers of sacred Scripture, and by Christ Himself. Reference
is made to Matt. 11:25–26; Luke 4:25–27; 8:10; John 6:37, 39; etc. (5) That the sovereignty
of God is evidenced in dispensing saving grace is illustrated also in His establishing the
temporal conditions of mankind. Some are born and reared in the surroundings of
civilization, others of barbarism. And precisely so some are blessed with the light of the
gospel, while others, dwelling in pagan lands, are deprived of that light and consequently are
not saved.
This system of strict Calvinism above outlined has received various modifications by
theologians of the Calvinistic school. The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in
the United States of America, May 1903, adopted the following: “We believe that all who die
in infancy, and all others given by the Father to the Son who are beyond the reach of the
outward means of grace, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who works
when and where and how He pleases.”

The Arminian View.

The Arminian view of election has been in recent years more
generally accepted than formerly, even among denominations whose teaching has been
Calvinistic or indefinite upon this point. This view grounds itself, in opposition to Calvinism,
upon the universality of the atonement and the graciously restored freedom of the human
will. Election, accordingly, is not absolute but conditional, contingent upon the proper
acceptance of such gifts of grace as God by His Spirit and providence puts within the reach of
men. Inasmuch as this subject involves the character and method of the divine government
and the destiny of the entire race, the following should be said: (1) According to the
Arminian doctrine the purpose of God to redeem mankind was bound up with His purpose to
create. The Lamb of God was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8, KJV,
NIV). God would not have permitted a race of sinners to come into existence without
provision to save them. Such provision must not be for only a part but for the whole of the
fallen race. To suppose the contrary is opposed to the divine perfections. To doom to eternal
death any number of mankind who were born in sin and without sufficient remedy would be
injustice. (2) The benefits of the atonement are universal and in part unconditional. They are
unconditional with respect to those who, through no fault of their own, are in such a mental
or moral condition as to make it impossible for them either to accept or reject Christ. A
leading denomination emphasizes the doctrine that “all children, by virtue of the
unconditional benefits of the atonement, are members of the kingdom of God.” This principle
extends to others besides children, both in heathen and Christian lands. God alone is
competent to judge the extent to which, in varying degrees, human beings are responsible,
and therefore the extent to which the unconditional benefits of the atonement may be applied.
(3) The purpose or decree of God is to save all who do not, actually or implicitly, willfully
reject the saving offices of the Lord Jesus Christ. Among those who have not heard the
gospel may exist “the spirit of faith and the purpose of righteousness.” Thus even those who
have no knowledge of the historic Christ virtually determine whether or not they will be
saved through Christ. They to whom the gospel is preached have higher advantages and more
definite responsibilities. To them, repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
are the conditions of salvation. (4) Upon all men God bestows some measure of His grace,
restoring to the depraved will sufficient freedom to enable them to accept Christ and be
saved. Thus, in opposition to Calvinists, Arminians assert that not only Adam, but also his
depraved descendants are in a stage of probation.
In behalf of this doctrine the following is argued: (1) That the whole trend of the
Scriptures is to declare the responsibility of men and their actual power to choose between
life and death. (2) That the Scriptures explicitly teach that it is the will of God that all men
should be saved. Only those perish who wickedly resist His will (1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; John 5:40;
Acts 7:51; etc.). (3) That the Scriptures declare the universality of Christ’s atonement, and in
some degree the universality of its benefits (Heb. 2:9; John 1:29; 3:16–17; 1 Cor. 15:22;
Rom. 5:18–19; and many other passages). (4) That the doctrine of unconditional election
necessarily implies that of unconditional reprobation; and that is to charge God with cruelty.
(5) That unconditional election also necessarily implies the determinate number of the elect, a
point that Calvinists hold, though they admit that they have for it no explicit teaching of
Scripture. To the contrary, the Scriptures not only generally but particularly teach that the
number of the elect can be increased or diminished. This is the purport of all those passages
in which sinners are exhorted to repent, or believers warned against becoming apostate, or to
“make certain about His calling and choosing you” (Matt. 24:4, 13; 2 Pet. 1:10; etc.). (6) That
the Scriptures never speak of impenitent and unbelieving men as elect, as in some cases it
would be proper to do if election were antecedent to repentance and faith and not conditioned
thereby. (7) That the whole theory of unconditional election is of the same tendency with
fatalism. (8) That the logic of unconditional election is opposed to true evangelism. (9) That
the essential features of the Arminian doctrine of election belong to the primitive and truly
historic doctrine of the church. Augustine was the first prominent teacher of unconditional
election, and he, regardless of the logical inconsistency, granted that reprobation is not
unconditional. This doctrine of Augustine was first formally accepted by the church in A.D.
529, in the Canons of the Council of Orange, approved by Pope Boniface II. The prominence
of unconditional election in the theory of Protestantism is due largely to the influence and
work of John Calvin, who, at the age of twenty-five, wrote his Institutes, in which he not only
set forth the Augustinian doctrine of unconditional election, but also taught unconditional
reprobation. John Wesley and his followers were responsible in a large degree for reviving
and developing the doctrine of Arminius.
The limits of this article do not permit an examination of the contested passages of
Scripture. For that, the reader should refer to works of systematic theology and to the
commentaries. E.MCC.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: R. Watson, Theological Institutes, 2 vols. (1843), 2:311–35, 370; J. Miley,
Systematic Theology, 2 vols. (1892), 2:260–63; W. R. Cannon, The Theology of John Wesley
(1946), pp. 90–106; H. H. Rowley, The Biblical Doctrine of Election (1950); J. Calvin,
Institutes of the Christian Religion, Library of Christian Classics (1960), 3:21–24; B. B.
Warfield, Biblical and Theological Studies (1952), pp. 270–333; G. C. Berkouwer, Divine
Election (1960).

Shalom
Johann
 
Reply#110 - Brother-Paul said,

It is true we will be judged, believers and unbelievers will both be judged; believers for all they have done for the Lord, bearing fruit in accordance with righteousness to bring Glory to God;

unbelievers, which includes those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins.
'I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
.. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away:
.... and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it,
...... that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
.. Abide in Me, and I in you.
.... the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
...... except it abide in the vine;
........ no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches:
.. He that abideth in Me and I in him,
.... the same bringeth forth much fruit:
...... for without me ye can do nothing.
........ If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
.......... and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.'
(John 15:1-6)

Hello @Brother-Paul,

In regard to the last sentence of your first paragraph (above), ' ... unbelievers, which include those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins' (quote).

* The illustration of the Vine and the branches finds its realization in the Lord and His chosen. The Lord is the true Vine, (not the Type) Those who are likened to branches that 'abide', are called 'disciples' (John 15:8), while those chosen ones who abide are called 'friends' (15:14): and fruitfulness leads to answered prayer.

* The Vine in OT typology represents Israel:- 'Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt' (Psa. 80:8 & Isaiah 5:1-7). Israel failed to fulfil the glorious purpose of their calling, but in this as in all else Christ is the answer and the fulfilment. He is the 'true' vine, of which failing Israel was but the shadow.

* It is a fact that the branches of the vine, are frail and useless for anything other than bearing fruit (Ezek. 15:3-5). In the light of this, the words, 'Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away' needs to be examined. Do the words, 'taketh away', mean that it is cut away? No, for the words, 'taketh (it) away' means 'raiseth', and is translated more than 40 times, 'take up', or 'lift up', etc., Take away is a secondary meaning. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch: but suggests patient care, raising the branch, training it, lifting it into the air and the sunshine, so that it will become fruitful. While the branches that bear fruit are purged that they may bring forth more fruit.

* To assume that the words, 'taketh away,' refers to unbelievers being 'pruned out' of the Vine, as you suggest: and thereby being subject to 'judgement', as you imply, I do not believe to be correct.

* The words, 'Ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you', indicate the spiritual interpretation of the 'pruning' or 'purging', as supplied by the Lord Himself: Every believer is once and forever cleansed. The, 'withered branch,' in (15:6) looks especially to Judas, for they were not all clean, as our Lord said with reference to Judas in (John 13:11):- 'For He knew who should betray Him; therefore said He, "Ye are not all clean."'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:
Any scripture references?
"he will live...but he may not reign?
Hello @Johann:

'For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 6:23)

' It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him,
we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
He cannot deny Himself.
(Tim. 2:11-13 )

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
'I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
.. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away:
.... and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it,
...... that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
.. Abide in Me, and I in you.
.... the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
...... except it abide in the vine;
........ no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches:
.. He that abideth in Me and I in him,
.... the same bringeth forth much fruit:
...... for without me ye can do nothing.
........ If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
.......... and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.'
(John 15:1-6)

Hello @Brother-Paul,

In regard to the last sentence of your first paragraph (above), ' ... unbelievers, which include those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins' (quote).

* The illustration of the Vine and the branches finds its realization in the Lord and His chosen. The Lord is the true Vine, (not the Type) Those who are likened to branches that 'abide', are called 'disciples' (John 15:8), while those chosen ones who abide are called 'friends' (15:14): and fruitfulness leads to answered prayer.

* The Vine in OT typology represents Israel:- 'Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt' (Psa. 80:8 & Isaiah 5:1-7). Israel failed to fulfil the glorious purpose of their calling, but in this as in all else Christ is the answer and the fulfilment. He is the 'true' vine, of which failing Israel was but the shadow.

* It is a fact that the branches of the vine, are frail and useless for anything other than bearing fruit (Ezek. 15:3-5). In the light of this, the words, 'Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away' needs to be examined. Do the words, 'taketh away', mean that it is cut away? No, for the words, 'taketh (it) away' means 'raiseth', and is translated more than 40 times, 'take up', or 'lift up', etc., Take away is a secondary meaning. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch: but suggests patient care, raising the branch, training it, lifting it into the air and the sunshine, so that it will become fruitful. While the branches that bear fruit are purged that they may bring forth more fruit.

* To assume that the words, 'taketh away,' refers to unbelievers being 'pruned out' of the Vine, as you suggest: and thereby being subject to 'judgement', as you imply, I do not believe to be correct.

* The words, 'Ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you', indicate the spiritual interpretation of the 'pruning' or 'purging', as supplied by the Lord Himself: Every believer is once and forever cleansed. The, 'withered branch,' in (15:6) looks especially to Judas, for they were not all clean, as our Lord said with reference to Judas in (John 13:11):- 'For He knew who should betray Him; therefore said He, "Ye are not all clean."'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Nicely done!

It shall help thee greatly to understand scripture
If thou mark not only what is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after.

Miles Coverdale.

Johann.
 
'I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
.. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away:
.... and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it,
...... that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
.. Abide in Me, and I in you.
.... the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
...... except it abide in the vine;
........ no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches:
.. He that abideth in Me and I in him,
.... the same bringeth forth much fruit:
...... for without me ye can do nothing.
........ If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
.......... and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.'
(John 15:1-6)

Hello @Brother-Paul,

In regard to the last sentence of your first paragraph (above), ' ... unbelievers, which include those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins' (quote).

* The illustration of the Vine and the branches finds its realization in the Lord and His chosen. The Lord is the true Vine, (not the Type) Those who are likened to branches that 'abide', are called 'disciples' (John 15:8), while those chosen ones who abide are called 'friends' (15:14): and fruitfulness leads to answered prayer.

* The Vine in OT typology represents Israel:- 'Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt' (Psa. 80:8 & Isaiah 5:1-7). Israel failed to fulfil the glorious purpose of their calling, but in this as in all else Christ is the answer and the fulfilment. He is the 'true' vine, of which failing Israel was but the shadow.

* It is a fact that the branches of the vine, are frail and useless for anything other than bearing fruit (Ezek. 15:3-5). In the light of this, the words, 'Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away' needs to be examined. Do the words, 'taketh away', mean that it is cut away? No, for the words, 'taketh (it) away' means 'raiseth', and is translated more than 40 times, 'take up', or 'lift up', etc., Take away is a secondary meaning. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch: but suggests patient care, raising the branch, training it, lifting it into the air and the sunshine, so that it will become fruitful. While the branches that bear fruit are purged that they may bring forth more fruit.

* To assume that the words, 'taketh away,' refers to unbelievers being 'pruned out' of the Vine, as you suggest: and thereby being subject to 'judgement', as you imply, I do not believe to be correct.

* The words, 'Ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you', indicate the spiritual interpretation of the 'pruning' or 'purging', as supplied by the Lord Himself: Every believer is once and forever cleansed. The, 'withered branch,' in (15:6) looks especially to Judas, for they were not all clean, as our Lord said with reference to Judas in (John 13:11):- 'For He knew who should betray Him; therefore said He, "Ye are not all clean."'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris


Interesting comment Chris, thank you.

I am assuming you are referring to Ezekiel 3 as taken from the Hebrew.

This needs further investigation of what Jesus actually said in the Greek, I think.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

We have TAKETH away for not bearing fruit and PURGETH for the bearing of fruit.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is WITHERED; and men GATHER them, and CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE, and they are BURNED.

Cast into the fire and burned, I feel the need to look deeper, I feel there is more in what Jesus says, but for me it will have to be tomorrow.

Thank you for what you have shared sister.

Jesus loves you I do to
 
In regard to the last sentence of your first paragraph (above), ' ... unbelievers, which include those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins'

If they are cast out and burned, as Jesus says, they cannot be in and cast out the two are opposites.

Jesus makes a clearly defined line, in or out, no lukewarm, he refers to the two differences as extremes, and tells us of the advantages of each.

To assume that the words, 'taketh away,' refers to unbelievers being 'pruned out' of the Vine, as you suggest: and thereby being subject to 'judgement', as you imply, I do not believe to be correct.

I am not suggesting Chris, I am referring to what Jesus is actually saying. The only assumption made is that if a person is not in the vine, having been cast out, they are subject to judgement as a none believer as their are only two options at the judgement.

Jesus’ use of parables is amazing, he can give us a most colourful picture and still make things black and white.

I will look into this tomorrow, I have done all I can for today.

It is good to talk, to share in love, to generate further interest in the scripture, the Truth is in The Word.

Bless you
 
Nicely done!

It shall help thee greatly to understand scripture
If thou mark not only what is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after.

Miles Coverdale.

Johann.

WWWWWH

WWJD, WWJS

Very true
 
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