ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!

[Br. Bear]

will our fruit remain or is it to be burned by fire.... do unto others, Brethren, as you would have them do unto you.

Does you life live on or will it perish at your death.

Those saved will have at least remnants of life to be counted up after the dross is purged.

How do we live our life and is it as a light shining in the darkness, not quenched but eternal and foreordained to bear the fruit of Him Who has called us?

think on these things as you interact with one another

Bless you ....><>

 

[Johann]

OSAS is and always has been ‘False doctrine’

Those who claim that a person is once saved always saved fail to take the most important message in The Word of God. ‘ALL Scripture of God breathed’

ALL Scripture is given us by the Holy Spirit, through the prophets, through Jesus and through the apostles. No cherry picking verses, ALL Scripture is Gods breathed, every word, every sentence, every paragraph, every chapter, every book and letter, all testaments.

John 15

If a person fails to accept Jesus’ words, that God, who grafts us into the vine can also graft us out, then they are not accepting God’s Word, they are choosing what they have been taught or, are choosing to believe some words and verses over others. Not recommended.

Shalom

I guess then a person can be sealed..unsealed...sealed...and unsealed again and again.....


Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:13 In Moshiach you also, having heard the message of HaEmes, the Besuras HaGeulah of Yeshu'at Eloheinu which is yours, having also come to emunah, received your chotam (seal) in Moshiach with the Ruach Hakodesh of havtachah (promise),
Eph 1:14 Who is bestowed as an eravon (pledge) of our nachalah (allotted inheritance, TEHILLIM 16:5-6), with a view to the Geulah of Hashem's own possession, to the tehilat kavod (praise of glory) of Him.
OJB.



..and I don't think Paul had that thought in mind.
εσφραγισθητε
G4972
V-API-2P<<<<<Look this up.
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Any case, If I believe in OSAS, and you don't, why should this bring a division between us?

Why can't believers in Christ not walk in unison on CF's?
God bless
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings @Johann

There is no division between us my friend unless one or both of us allow it. Peace be with us.

SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

Therefore if ALL SCRIPTURE is God breathed, as Timothy tells us, given to him by the power of the Holy Spirit, it is God’s Word, we must accept ALL SCRIPTURE even if we understand it not.

John 15 is very clear, God is the root from which all blessings flow, Jesus is the vine which is with the Father as he is connected directly to the root, the Father. He said, I and the Father are one.

When we are born again from above, the Holy sap (Spirit), flows from God, the root; through Jesus, the vine; to the saved soul, the branches, so that we can abide in Him and He in us.

Jesus says…
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for WITHOUT ME you can do nothing. John 15:5

We have to be graphed into the vine, and when we are born again from above we are grafted in, connected from root, to vine to branches. We are to abide in Christ for Him to abide in us, we are also to bear fruit for God through Jesus.

By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. John 15:8

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10

So Jesus says clearly, we are to keep His Commandments and bear fruit, what if we don’t?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Once saved always saved, Jesus says the opposite here, if we who are in the vine, graphed (sealed), do not bear fruit, we are not abiding in Him the world is getting a hold of us, we will either and God who cares for the vine will prune us out of his kingdom!!!

Jesus makes things clear from the very beginning…

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me ‘that does not bear fruit’ HE TAKES AWAY; (See verse 6) and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

If we are born again from above, grafted into the vine, keep the Lord’s Commandments and bear fruit we have nothing to worry about, we have received the promise of being saved and look forward to our salvation which is, in Him, and as we abide in Him, God will prune us to bear even more fruit for Himself.

These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. John 15:11

If we don’t we can be cut out, cast out, of the vine, this is what Jesus is saying, in John 15:1-17

If we say OSAS we are going against Jesus’ words to us, if we say OSAS we are not accepting ALL God’s, we are choosing verses that better suit our thinking, and not accepting what Jesus is clearly telling us.

And everything Jesus says, good or bad, like it or dislike it, is said in Love.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
You are My friends ‘IF’ you do whatever I command you.
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; (We only know if we continue to abide in Him) but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should GO AND BEAR FRUIT, and that YOUR FRUIT SHOULD REMAIN, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
These things I command you, that you love one another. John 15:13-17

Put OSAS aside, it is false thinking, we are to accept ALL SCRIPTURE, as it is ALL God breathed. In John 15 Jesus had a lot to say, everything He said was in Love, even the point we can be pruned from the vine, cut out and burned.

In His Love

Brother Paul

 

[Johann]

Greetings @Johann

There is no division between us my friend unless one or both of us allow it. Peace be with us.

SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

Therefore if ALL SCRIPTURE is God breathed, as Timothy tells us, given to him by the power of the Holy Spirit, it is God’s Word, we must accept ALL SCRIPTURE even if we understand it not.

John 15 is very clear, God is the root from which all blessings flow, Jesus is the vine which is with the Father as he is connected directly to the root, the Father. He said, I and the Father are one.

When we are born again from above, the Holy sap (Spirit), flows from God, the root; through Jesus, the vine; to the saved soul, the branches, so that we can abide in Him and He in us.

Jesus says…
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for WITHOUT ME you can do nothing. John 15:5

We have to be graphed into the vine, and when we are born again from above we are grafted in, connected from root, to vine to branches. We are to abide in Christ for Him to abide in us, we are also to bear fruit for God through Jesus.

By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. John 15:8

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10

So Jesus says clearly, we are to keep His Commandments and bear fruit, what if we don’t?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Once saved always saved, Jesus says the opposite here, if we who are in the vine, graphed (sealed), do not bear fruit, we are not abiding in Him the world is getting a hold of us, we will either and God who cares for the vine will prune us out of his kingdom!!!

Jesus makes things clear from the very beginning…

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me ‘that does not bear fruit’ HE TAKES AWAY; (See verse 6) and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

If we are born again from above, grafted into the vine, keep the Lord’s Commandments and bear fruit we have nothing to worry about, we have received the promise of being saved and look forward to our salvation which is, in Him, and as we abide in Him, God will prune us to bear even more fruit for Himself.

These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. John 15:11

If we don’t we can be cut out, cast out, of the vine, this is what Jesus is saying, in John 15:1-17

If we say OSAS we are going against Jesus’ words to us, if we say OSAS we are not accepting ALL God’s, we are choosing verses that better suit our thinking, and not accepting what Jesus is clearly telling us.

And everything Jesus says, good or bad, like it or dislike it, is said in Love.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
You are My friends ‘IF’ you do whatever I command you.
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; (We only know if we continue to abide in Him) but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should GO AND BEAR FRUIT, and that YOUR FRUIT SHOULD REMAIN, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
These things I command you, that you love one another. John 15:13-17

Put OSAS aside, it is false thinking, we are to accept ALL SCRIPTURE, as it is ALL God breathed. In John 15 Jesus had a lot to say, everything He said was in Love, even the point we can be pruned from the vine, cut out and burned.

In His Love

Brother Paul

@Brother Paul
I hear what you are getting at, but the Perfect Tense in our salvation is secure.
The Grammar Of Salvation
1. The voice of a verb tells whether a thing is acting or being acted upon. The active voice indicates that a thing itself is acting; the passive voice indicates that a thing itself is being acted upon by another, it being passive in the action.

Active Passive
He swallowed the fish. He was swallowed by the fish.
We know God (Gal 4:9). We are known of God (Gal 4:9).
Then shall I know (I Cor 13:10). As also I am known (I Cor 13:10).
He accepted God. He is accepted with God (Ep 1:6).
2. The tense of a verb tells the timing of the action. Past, present, and future tenses are obvious to most everyone.

Past Present Future
They ran to school. They run to school. They will run to school.
She loved the saints. She loves the saints. She will love the saints.
They were begotten. They are being begotten. They will be begotten.
Who was born. Who is being born. Who will be born.
3. The perfect tense means an action was completed, or perfected, some time before the given tense and is still true in the given tense. Perfect tense exists for past, present, and future.

Past Perfect Present Perfect Future Perfect
They had run to school. They have run to school. They will have run.
She had loved the saints. She has loved the saints. She will have loved.
They had been begotten. They have been begotten. They will have been begot.
Who had been born. Who have been born. Who will have been born.
4. Verb order has nothing to do with timing, if the verb tenses indicate otherwise.

Verb Order
The man that won the sit-up contest had run five miles. (He ran first)
They reported all that the chief priests had said unto them (Acts 4:23).
The elders at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God (Acts 8:14).
He found a certain man, which had kept his bed eight years (Acts 9:33).
They cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid (Josh 10:27).
I John 5:1 “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”
The man that “believeth” [present tense] “is born” [perfect tense, passive voice] of God.

The grammar declares by verb tenses that the man was born of God before he believed.
Therefore, believing the gospel about Jesus Christ is evidence and proof of regeneration.
If you make it conditional, you must also require love and righteousness (I Jn 2:29; 4:7).
But love and righteousness are evidence of regeneration (I John 3:7,10,14; III John 1:11).
By comparing this verse to I John 4:7 and I John 3:14, you can clearly see it is evidence.
By reading more than the sound bite, we see other verbs proving evidence (I John 4:15).
And we can also verify that evidence is indicated here by reading I John 5:4 and 5:13.
Modern usage would write, anyone believing Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.
Those who make these statements to be conditional are ignorant or liars. Let God be true!
Check Greek verbs in A.T. Robertson, Berry’s Interlinear, J.M. Pendleton, here, or here.
I John 4:15 “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”
Remember the rule that order of verbs does not matter, for the tenses determine priority.
The act of faith, in confessing Jesus as Son, is clearly in the future tense, “shall confess.”
The result of regeneration, indwelling by God, is in the present tense, “God dwelleth.”
John taught that God already dwells in any person that confesses Jesus is the Son of God.
Confessing Jesus is the Son of God is evidence of union with God, not a condition for it.
John 5:24 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
What tenses are “heareth,” “believeth,” “hath,” “shall not come,” and “is passed”?
The one hearing and believing (present tense) is already in possession of eternal life.
The one hearing and believing (present tense) shall not come into future condemnation.
The one hearing and believing (present) has already been passed by the perfect tense.
Modern usage would write, the man that believes has been passed from death unto life.
A believer has been passed from death to life, owns eternal life, and will not be damned.
This verse by itself is a wonderful lesson in salvation grammar by its variety of tenses.
Of course, the verse is read, quoted, and preached as a sound bite for decisional salvation.

Check Greek verbs in A.T. Robertson, Berry’s Interlinear, J.M. Pendleton, here, or here.
John 1:12-13 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
What are the verb tenses of “received,” “gave,” “believe,” and “were born”? Love them!
“Received him” is past tense as transition from John 1:11 in John’s historical account.
John brought past tense to the present by explanatory “even” and present tense “believe.”
Jesus “gave” [past tense] power to be God’s sons to those that “believe” [present tense].
Those who “believe” [present tense] “were born” [past tense] of God – the true order.
The action of birthing them by God had been perfected, or completed, before their belief.
Only this construction and understanding agrees with the descriptive facts of John 1:13.
Only this construction and understanding agrees with the rest of New Testament doctrine.
It is a travesty that men only quote and preach John 1:12, though it is but half a sentence.
For expositional details of John 1:12-13.
1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
Only those who “are saved” (perfect tense, passive voice) perceive the gospel as glorious.
Those perishing do not profit by hearing the gospel; it is foolishness to them (II Cor 4:3).
The language is clear – a perfect tense “are saved” and a present tense “is” perceived – indicates that salvation occurred prior to the gospel being perceived as the power of God.
Paul used verb tenses here to show the gospel only benefits those already saved (called).
God must call a man in order for the gospel to make sense to that man (I Cor 1:22-24).
It is a travesty men use this verse as if the gospel were the conditional means of salvation.
For details of I Corinthians 1.
Ephesians 1:6 “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”
This text has to do with justification, not regeneration; but is it conditional at all?
Paul taught that our salvation is dependent on being accepted, not by accepting (Eph 1:6).
Crucial on Judgment Day is God’s acceptance of you, not yours of Him (Matt 7:21-23).
Here we are dealing with the voice of the verb – are we active or passive in acceptance?
It is the holy God accepting sinners by the merits of His beloved Son’s finished work.
The religious world is clamoring, buying, and seducing sinners to accept Jesus Christ.
God declared our adoption to result from being made acceptable to Him in Jesus Christ.
For more Ephesians 1.
Acts 10:35 “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
This text has to do with justification, not regeneration; but is it conditional at all?
He that feareth (singular, present tense) is accepted with Him (singular, perfect tense).
He that worketh righteousness (singular, present tense) is accepted (singular, perfect).
Thus, a man fearing God and working righteousness has already been accepted by God.
The context shows that Cornelius already had five traits of saved men (Acts 10:1-5).
Being accepted with God through Jesus Christ is the stated key to salvation (Eph 1:6).
If we preach conditions, we violate grace and Scripture (Rom 3:18; I Jn 2:29; 3:7,10).
The only salvation Peter could give Cornelius was conversion (Ja 5:19-20; I Tim 4:16).
Cornelius.
Acts 13:39 “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.”
This text has to do with justification, not regeneration; but is it conditional at all?
All that “believe” (plural, present tense) “are justified” (plural, perfect tense). Glory!
Paul further confirmed the fact by ascribing justification “by him,” that is, by Christ!
Paul argued that justification precedes faith in an evangelistic text about justification.
Salvation phases.

Grammar of Salvation

The Grammar Of Salvation 1. The voice of a verb tells whether a thing is acting or being acted upon. The active voice indicates that a thing itself is acting; the passive voice indicates that a thing itself is being acted upon by another, it being passive in the action. 2. The

letgodbetrue.com

https://www.biblestudymanuals.net/new_testament_greek.htm#:~:text=I)%20NEW%20TESTAMENT%20GREEK%20VERBS

The Perfect Tense
The Kind of Action of the Perfect Tense:
Durative and Punctiliar. Completed action with abiding results.

The Dramatic Perfect
An action completed in the past is conceived in terms of the present time for the sake of vividness. This was a use suited for the orator or the dramatist, and was often used in rhetorical questions. John uses it more than any other New Testament writer. It would be similar to ours, “The first thing you know he has done it.” (It is sometimes referred to as the “Present Perfect.”).

The Intensive Perfect
This use is a strong way of saying that a thing is, denoting an action rather than a state resulting from an action, having the force of an emphatic present. Stress is placed on the existing fact. This is done more forcibly than either the Greek or English present could ever do. This use is primarily used with verbs of senses.

The Extensive Perfect
This use denotes a completed act that has abiding results. It emphasizes that the action took place and still has abiding results. The finished process with its results is expressed, not the existing state. (CF. The Intensive Perfect). This is the most frequent use of the perfect.

The Gnomic Perfect
This use denotes an action that was generally true. It is rare in the New Testament.

The Iterative Perfect
This use denotes repeated action. Completed action is stressed, but something in the context or in the meaning of the word (or both) indicate(s) that the idea of the action was iterative. It is relatively rare in the New Testament.

The Periphrastic Perfect

This use emphasizes an existing state. It is made up of the perfect participle and an auxiliary verb. It does not occur very frequently in the New Testament.

The Future Perfect
This use anticipates an action not yet done, it represents a completed state or condition from the standpoint of future time. It is rare in the New Testament.

© 2017 Luther Walker | All Rights Reserved | ISBN-10: 0-9993211-0-2, ISBN-13: 978-0-9993211-0-2 | This book or any potion thereof may not be reproduced or used in any manner whatsoever without the express written permission of the publisher except for the use of brief quotations in a book review or scholarly journal.

Present Tense
Imperfect Tense
Aorist Tense
Future Tense
Perfect Tense
Pluperfect Tense
SALVATION (THE GOSPEL MESSAGE)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I don't know nothing re the doctrines of OSAS, but the Perfect Tense, Aorist, and Present, Middle Voice, shows me that YHVH will not seal...unseal....seal...unseal again and again the believer in Christ Jesus
Why seal the believer in the first place, if the "sealing" can be "unsealed?"

Doesn't make sense, but this should not bring a "division" among the few genuine believers in Messiah Yeshua.

I do notice that most are in the gospel accounts, quoting scriptures from there, but we have the 13 Pauline Epistles, and the 7 mysteries given to Paul, and a resurrected Messiah.

God bless brother.
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

God let’s us choose what we want to believe, but He also tells us the consequences of not believing, the Truth in His Word, which He has given all mankind, via the Holy Spirit, through the prophets, through Jesus, and through the Apostles, in His Love.

If you wish to believe OSAS, that is your personal choice, scripture confirms, you or I, have nothing to worry about, providing we are born again of water through baptism and spirit from above, and that we bear fruit, ‘for God’, and follow Jesus’ Commands; except possibly answering to the Lord for teaching untruths.

John 15:1-17, we note is not a verse here or a verse there, but an orderly message from Jesus, described in parable form, ‘to give us the picture’, so that we can all clearly understand what Jesus is saying.

Blessed are the little children for their’s is the Kingdom of Heaven.

I believe that OSAS is dangerous talk, it easily gives the wrong impression, that people can follow the world, go to confession and ay oh heaven awaits!

OSAS allows people to think that if they do not bear fruit now, but have in the past, they will go to heaven when they die!

They choose to follow the world and not the creator, they allow the fruit they had to die whilst in the vine, Jesus warns us
that God who tends to the vine will, ‘cut these out, they will wither and be burnt’. There are plenty of warnings of the consequences of following the broad way and not keeping to the narrow path ‘that leads to life eternal’.

In my personal view, based on the considerations some put forward for believing OSAS, and listening carefully to what Jesus kindly and clearly explains, in John 15; I cannot see any reason to believe in OSAS. No one has given explanations that stand up for this thinking, based on all the scriptures, remembering always that, all scriptures are God breathed.

I also believe to choose one scripture over another is dangerous, every word, every verse, every sentence, every book, letter or testament is God breathed. If we choose to accept one section over another, rejecting the first to accept what we feel is right in others, we are in effect saying, we know better than God.

As we all know there are verses that ‘appear’ to conflict, that is why we are told to pray the Holy Spirit to guide us and reveal The Truth to us, we are also told, to search the scriptures, never does it say we are to discard any, or choose one over another.’ All scripture is from God, He knows why every Word that has been included has been included. One day we will know for sure, providing we are still in the vine, still obeying the Commands our Lord has given us. \o/

I respect your views, we share in love, but I cannot accept your reasoning for accepting OSAS.

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

Why seal the believer in the first place, if the "sealing" can be "unsealed?"

This is a bit of a translation issue. KJV and a couple of other say "sealed". But the majority say "marked with a seal".

Ephesians 4:30
(AMPC) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).
(AMPC+) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).
(ASV) And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.
(GNB) And do not make God's Holy Spirit sad; for the Spirit is God's mark of ownership on you, a guarantee that the Day will come when God will set you free.
(GW) Don’t give God’s Holy Spirit any reason to be upset with you. He has put his seal on you for the day you will be set free ⌞from the world of sin⌟.
(HCSB) And don't grieve God's Holy Spirit. You were sealed by Him for the day of redemption.
(ISV) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption.
(KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(MKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.
(NAS77) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NAS95) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NIrV) Do not make God's Holy Spirit sad. He marked you with a seal for the day when God will set you completely free.
(NIV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NLT) And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.
(RV) And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

There seems to be a slight difference between "sealed" as inside a vault or something.
And "marked with" or "identified with" a marking or seal upon you.

I also believe to choose one scripture over another is dangerous, every word, every verse, every sentence, every book, letter or testament is God breathed.

I coudn't have said it better. With that in mind, consider these.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You can't "fall away" from the faith, if you never had the faith to begin with.

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are some in the kingdom, who will gathered "out of His kingdom" and thrown in the furnace of fire.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Some who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit will fall away. It says here they can't repent "again" and crucify Jesus "again". You can't do something again,
unless you've done it at least once already.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Some who have escaped the defilements of the world - by knowledge of Christ. Will become entangled in those things again. It will worse for them, than if they were never saved in the first place.

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Exod 32:32; "But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"
Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Some names will be erased or blotted out from the Book of Life.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus said some will believe for a while, and then fall away.
There a several more verses like these.

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are 3 servants in the Master's house in this story. Two were told "well done good and faithful servant". The third one was thrown out.

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

This is a common verse often used with OSAS. But notice the context here, it starts out with being "free from the love of money", The context here is God will take care of your needs.
Not, you won't lose your salvation. It says here "He has said". Well where did he say that? It wasn't Jesus in the New Testament anywhere. You have to go all the way back to Deut 31:8;

But even though God didn't forsake them, they forsook Him.

Deut 29:25; "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15; "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12; and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13; So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6; Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9; "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Kin 17:16; They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.
2Kin 21:22; So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
2Chron 7:22; "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Chron 12:1; When the kingdom of Rehoboam was established and strong, he and all Israel with him forsook the law of the LORD.
Jer 22:9; "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

 

[B-A-C]

Another frequently used passage.

John 19:30; Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

It is finished, there is nothing left for us to do, right? However in Hebrews it says...

Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:11; Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Even though His work was finished... some failed to enter because of their disobedience.

======================================

Another one.

John 10:27; "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

No one can "pluck" or "snatch" you from Jesus's hand, so you are safe right?

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are "good fish" and "bad fish" in the kingdom. One day Jesus Himself will tell His angels to separate them out.
No one can pluck you from Jesus's hand. But Jesus Himself will have some bad fish thrown into the furnace of fire.

 

[complete]

Another frequently used passage.

John 19:30; Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

It is finished, there is nothing left for us to do, right? However in Hebrews it says...

Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:11; Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Even though His work was finished... some failed to enter because of their disobedience.

'And to whom sware He that they should not enter into His rest,
but to them that believed not?
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.'
( Heb 3:18)

* The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is trusting in Him for full salvation, is not guilty of unbelief. God has begun a work in them and will continue that work until the day of Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.'

Another bad translation?

Hebrews 3:18
(AMPC) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?
(AMPC+) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?
(ASV) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
(BSB) And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed?
(CEV) And who did God say would never enter his place of rest? Weren't they the ones that disobeyed him?
(CSB) And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, if not to those who disobeyed?
(ESV) And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(ESV+) And to whom did he swear that R12they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(GNB) When God made his solemn promise, "They will never enter the land where I would have given them rest"—of whom was he speaking? Of those who rebelled.
(GW) Who did God swear would never enter his place of rest? He was talking about those who didn’t obey him.
(HCSB) And who did He swear to that they would not enter His rest, if not those who disobeyed?
(ISV) And to whom did he swear that they would never enter his rest? It was to those who disobeyed him, was it not?
(KJV) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
(MKJV) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter into His rest, but to those who did not believe?
(NAS77) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(NAS95) And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(NIrV) What people did God promise with an oath that they would never enjoy the rest he planned for them? Wasn't it those who didn't obey?
(NIV) And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
(NKJV) And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
(NLT) And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him?
(RV) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?

apeitheō
ap-i-theh'-o
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
Total KJV occurrences: 16

One goes with the other, you can't have obedience without faith. You can't have faith without obedience.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Allow me, if I may, to throw another consideration into the conversation.

When talking about salvation, what are each scriptures referring to?

Are the various scriptures on the topic referring to…

Salvation of our spirit?
Salvation of our soul?
Salvation of our body?
Or referring to salvation of the three as one?

Can one be saved and not lost? OSAS views think so.

Can one be saved and lose one’s salvation?
OSLS

Can one part of the above be saved and another lost, spirit, soul, body?

Thoughts
Is not the spirit eternal once God’s spirit and our spirit unite?

Has God not got the power to separate the spirit and the soul?

Do we not symbolically, eat his flesh and drink his blood?

Plenty to think about and look into together, do you think?

It could answer some of the overlapping considerations and ideas about OSAS.

Comments submitted for consideration by the admin team.

 

[complete]

Another bad translation?

Hebrews 3:18
(AMPC) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?
(AMPC+) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?
(ASV) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
(BSB) And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed?
(CEV) And who did God say would never enter his place of rest? Weren't they the ones that disobeyed him?
(CSB) And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, if not to those who disobeyed?
(ESV) And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(ESV+) And to whom did he swear that R12they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(GNB) When God made his solemn promise, "They will never enter the land where I would have given them rest"—of whom was he speaking? Of those who rebelled.
(GW) Who did God swear would never enter his place of rest? He was talking about those who didn’t obey him.
(HCSB) And who did He swear to that they would not enter His rest, if not those who disobeyed?
(ISV) And to whom did he swear that they would never enter his rest? It was to those who disobeyed him, was it not?
(KJV) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
(MKJV) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter into His rest, but to those who did not believe?
(NAS77) And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(NAS95) And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
(NIrV) What people did God promise with an oath that they would never enjoy the rest he planned for them? Wasn't it those who didn't obey?
(NIV) And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
(NKJV) And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
(NLT) And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him?
(RV) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?

apeitheō
ap-i-theh'-o
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
Total KJV occurrences: 16

One goes with the other, you can't have obedience without faith. You can't have faith without obedience.

@B-A-C,

Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

* The obedience of faith is to believe on Him Whom God has sent, His only Begotten Son.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

This is the work of God,

Notice Jesus calls this a "work". It's still a work on your part.

 

[complete]

Notice Jesus calls this a "work". It's still a work on your part.

Hello @B-A-C,

The Lord was speaking in response to their question, 'what shall we do, that we might work the works of God?' So naturally He would call 'believing' a 'work'. The opposite of unbelief is to believe. That is what we do when we hear God's word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and believe it. For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation
to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed
from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.'
(Rom 1:16-17)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

#3. ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!
Scriptures for σώξω 'sozo' meaning 'to save' Strong's 4982
Scriptures for σωτηρία 'soteria' meaning 'salvation' Strong's 4991


Once Saved Always Saved Index
Introduction 3
#3.02 God told Ezekiel that the righteous would be lost if he sinned
#3.04 Paul taught that we could believe, suffer and labor in vain
#3.06 Paul taught that we could fall from grace
#3.08 Jesus taught that the branches of the vine could be taken away and cast out
#3.10 Paul taught that the branches could be broken off the olive tree
#3.12 Paul taught that widows could be condemned who cast off their first faith
#3.14 Paul taught that he could be lost
#3.16 One purpose of chastening is to avoid our destruction
#3.18 Names can be blotted out of the book of life
#3.20 Israel, our example, failed to inherit the promised land
#3.22 David temporarily lost his salvation when he sinned
#3.24 Jesus told the churches in Revelation to repent
#3.26 Peter taught that backsliders would be lost
#3.28 Willful sinners who have fully known the truth will be lost
#3.30 The works of the flesh will condemn those who do them
Introduction 3
Once saved always saved? Yes and no! It depends on the point in time that you choose to apply it. Once saved always saved in this life is a false doctrine promoted by numerous Christians, by which they mean that once they believe in Jesus and become a Christian, then they cannot be lost. This comes from a misunderstanding of the basis of salvation. First of all salvation is by grace through faith (Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:5, 2:8), and grace is entered into through faith (Romans 5:2, Ephesians 2:8). So no faith equals no grace, which in turn equals no salvation. Secondly, faith without works is dead (James 2:17, 2:20, 2:26), so a genuine faith must produce works of faith in our lives, and one of these works will be to overcome sin. Anything we have by faith is obviously not manifested yet because faith is "the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Thirdly, salvation in a manifested sense is still future:

(Mark 16:16) "He who believed and was baptized will be saved;"
(Acts 15:11) "But we believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they shall."
(Romans 13:11) "For now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed."
(Philippians 2:12) "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
(1 Peter 1:5) "Who are being kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
(1 Peter 1:9) "Receiving at the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

When we become believers, God gives us "a measure of faith" (Romans 12:3) for our salvation, but we need to maintain that faith, because if we lose it, we will get nothing. Providing then, that we hold on to our faith to the end, we will receive our salvation in a real sense when we are resurrected from the dead at the second coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:50-57; Hebrews 9:28).

(Matthew 24:13) "But he who shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."

This being so we are not saved in a manifested sense when we first become Christians; we only have salvation by a faith which can be lost if we do not continue to follow Jesus and endure to the end. Now if we say, "once saved always saved", and understand that this applies to those who receive their salvation in a manifested sense when Jesus returns, then this would be a true doctrine, because after that we cannot be lost.

(1 Corinthians 5:5) "That his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Thus we shall always be with the Lord."
(Hebrews 9:28) "Christ … who will appear a second time, without sin, for salvation."
(Revelation 19:7) "The marriage of the lamb has come and his wife has made herself ready."
(Revelation 20:6) "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power."

Jesus taught that after a marriage is consummated there should be no separation (Matthew 19:6; Mark 10:9). As the church is his bride, when Jesus returns the marriage will be consummated, "when he is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). There will be no separation of the saved from him after that. If we try to apply "once saved always saved" to people when they first become believers, then it is false. All of the following scriptures will back this up.

#3.02 GOD TOLD EZEKIEL THAT THE RIGHTEOUS WOULD BE LOST IF HE SINNED
EZEKIEL 3:20
20 Again, When a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

EZEKIEL 18:24, 26
24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass which he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he shall die.
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done he shall die.

EZEKIEL 33:12-13
12 Therefore you son of man, say to the children of your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sins.
13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live; if he trusts to his own righteousness, and commits iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it.

EZEKIEL 33:18
18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall even die by it.

Note: These scriptures are really very clear, "When a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, ... he shall die in his sin" (Ezekiel 3:20), "in his trespass which he has trespassed, and in his sin which he has sinned, in them he shall die" (Ezekiel 18:24), "for his iniquity that he has done he shall die" (Ezekiel 18:26), "for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it" (Ezekiel 33:13), "he shall even die by it" (Ezekiel 33:18). No honest Christian should need to go any further than these verses, to know that a righteous man's salvation can be lost if he sins. He cannot remain in sin if he wishes to be saved. Although some may try to pass over these scriptures because they are 'Old Testament', be warned, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16), and "whatever things were written before were written for our learning" (Romans 15:4). Paul said that he believed, "all things which are written in the law and the prophets:" (Acts 24:14), and if he believed them, then we ought to believe them also. Jesus made it clear that nobody could pluck us out of his hand (John 10:28-29), but that refers to us being tested under persecution not to us making a decision to go the wrong way.

#3.04 PAUL TAUGHT THAT WE COULD BELIEVE, SUFFER AND LABOR IN VAIN
1 CORINTHIANS 15:1-2 (Paul)
1 Furthermore, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;
2 By which you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.

GALATIANS 3:4 (Paul)
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain; if it is yet in vain?

GALATIANS 4:11 (Paul)
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

Note: If we can believe and suffer in vain then we can suffer for what we believe, then later lose our belief and be lost. If Paul could labor in vain on the Galatians then they would have to be lost after he had ministered to them and they first believed.

#3.06 PAUL TAUGHT THAT WE COULD FALL FROM GRACE
1 CORINTHIANS 10:12 (Paul)
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he falls.

GALATIANS 1:6 (Paul)
6 I marvel that you are so soon removed from him who called you into the grace of Christ to another gospel.

GALATIANS 5:4 (Paul)
4 Christ has become of no effect to you, whoever you are who are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Note: If "you are fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) then you must be fallen from the way of salvation, because "through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved" (Acts 15:11), "by grace you are saved" (Ephesians 2:5), and "by grace are you saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8).

#3.08 JESUS TAUGHT THAT THE BRANCHES OF THE VINE COULD BE TAKEN AWAY AND CAST OUT
JOHN 15:1-6 (Jesus)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abides in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without me you can do nothing.
6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast out as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Note: Jesus told his disciples, "you are the branches" (v5), and the condition to avoid being cast forth as a branch and burned in the fire, is to abide in him (v6). "Whoever abides in him does not sin" (1 John 3:6), makes it clear that the condition to remain as a branch, that is, on the way to salvation, is that we remove all sin from our lives.

#3.10 PAUL TAUGHT THAT THE BRANCHES COULD BE BROKEN OFF THE OLIVE TREE
ROMANS 11:16-22 (Paul)
16 For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches are broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and the fatness of the olive tree;
18 Do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, you do not bear the root, but the root you.
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear:
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, take heed lest he also does not spare you.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

Note: If we lose our faith after becoming believers through continuing in sin, then we can be figuratively cut off from the olive tree by God. That would mean that we are lost.

#3.12 PAUL TAUGHT THAT WIDOWS WOULD BE CONDEMNED WHO CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH
1 TIMOTHY 5:11-12 (Paul)
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having condemnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Note: Paul taught that younger widows who dedicated their lives to Jesus, and then went back and got married again could be condemned for casting off their faith. Therefore he commanded widows under 60 to be refused to do it. Once saved always saved? Not in this scripture.

#3.14 PAUL TAUGHT THAT HE COULD BE LOST
1 CORINTHIANS 9:27 (Paul)
27 But I keep my body under control, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a reject1.

Note: The exploits of the apostle Paul are well documented in scripture (2 Corinthians 1:8; 4:8-11; 7:5; 11:23-25) and just as we could suffer in vain, he obviously believed that he could also. The Greek word translated 'reject' in this scripture is ἀδόκιμος (Gtr. adokimos) which literally means 'unapproved', and if he could be rejected after what he went through then we can also.

#3.16 ONE PURPOSE OF CHASTENING IS TO AVOID OUR DESTRUCTION
PROVERBS 23:13-14 (Solomon)
13 Do not withhold correction from the child: for if you beat him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from Sheol.

PSALMS 73:12-19 (Asaph)
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Truly I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocence.
14 For all the day long I have been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of your children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I understood their end.
18 Surely you set them in slippery places: you cast them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! They are utterly consumed with terrors.

1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 (Paul)
5 Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 CORINTHIANS 11:32 (Paul)
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

HEBREWS 12:5
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to children, My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are you illegitimate, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterwards it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.

Note: The purpose of chastening is always corrective, to turn us away from sins that could cause us to lose salvation, such as the fornicator at Corinth, or any of the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). Jesus chastens us because he loves us (Hebrews 12:6) so that our end result will be "holiness" (v10) and "righteousness" (v11), thus ensuring our salvation.

#3.18 NAMES CAN BE BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE
EXODUS 32:31-33
31 And Moses returned to Yahweh, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if you will forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray you, out of your book which you have written.
33 And Yahweh said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

PSALMS 69:28 (David)
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not written with the righteous.

PSALMS 109:13 (David)
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

PROVERBS 21:16 (Solomon)
16 The man who wanders out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

REVELATION 3:5 (Jesus)
5 He who overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white clothing; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

REVELATION 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Note: These scriptures show that if we sin against God, or take away from the prophecy of Revelation, we will have our name blotted out of the book of life. The consequences of this are very serious.

(Revelation 20:15) "And anyone not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire."

The lake of fire refers to Gehenna in other places and is commonly called Hell. Anyone who ends up there is not saved.

#3.20 ISRAEL, OUR EXAMPLE, FAILED TO INHERIT THE PROMISED LAND
1 CORINTHIANS 10:5-12 (Paul)
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Nor be idolaters, as some of them were: as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Nor let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day twenty three thousand.
9 Nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents.
10 Nor murmur, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are coming.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he falls.

Note: God first promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 13:14-17), then through Isaac down to Jacob (Genesis 28:13), and then changed Jacob's name to Israel (Genesis 32:28). The first ones to enter into this promise should have been the ones who came out of Egypt with Moses, but after spying out the land (Numbers 13) they refused to fight and take it (Numbers 14:2-4). They were sentenced to die in the wilderness (Numbers 14:29), which they did (Joshua 5:6), and the promise was passed on to their children (Joshua 1:2-4). Our promise today is not a worldly kingdom, but it is entrance into the kingdom of God. However, if we fail to fight the spiritual warfare necessary to overcome sin and follow Jesus Christ, then we also could lose our inheritance just as they did (Galatians 5:19-21). This example disproves "once saved always saved" in this life.

#3.22 DAVID TEMPORARILY LOST HIS SALVATION WHEN HE SINNED
PSALMS 51:9-12 (David)
9 Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from your presence; and do not take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation; and uphold me with your free spirit.

Note: David was described as a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14), but when he was king he committed adultery with Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 11:3-4), and later had him killed to cover up his sin (2 Samuel 11:15). He lost his salvation and the joy that came with it (Psalm 51:12) and only after repentance did he get it back (Psalm 51). He obviously did not believe in "once saved always saved".

#3.24 JESUS TOLD THE CHURCHES IN REVELATION TO REPENT
REVELATION 2:4-5 (Jesus to Ephesus)
4 Nevertheless I have something against you, because you have left your first love.
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come to you quickly, and will remove your lamp-stand out of his place, except you repent.

REVELATION 2:16 (Jesus)
16 Repent; or else I will come to you quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

REVELATION 3:3 (Jesus)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If therefore you shall not watch, I will come on you as a thief, and you shall not know what hour I shall come upon you.

REVELATION 3:15-16 (Jesus)
15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot.
16 So then because you art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

Note: Jesus found fault with five of the seven churches in Revelation chapter 2 and chapter 3 and told them to repent. If they didn't do it the penalties were different for each church, but one thing was in common for all: a willful refusal to repent would lead to loss of salvation. Does "I will spew you out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:16) sound like once saved always saved?

#3.26 PETER TAUGHT THAT BACKSLIDERS WOULD BE LOST
2 PETER 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Note: This scripture teaches that someone who has gone on with Jesus to escape the pollutions of the world should not turn back, or their "latter end is worse with them than the beginning." This is very much in agreement with what Ezekiel taught (Ezekiel 3:20; 18:24-26; 33:12-13; 33:18). It shows it would be better for someone not to become a Christian than to turn back after knowing the truth, and going back to worldly way of life. Paul turned two men over to Satan who did this (1 Timothy 1:19-20). Were they saved?

#3.28 WILLFUL SINNERS WHO HAVE FULLY KNOWN THE TRUTH WILL BE LOST
HEBREWS 10:26-29 (Paul)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He who despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

1 JOHN 5:16-17
16 If any man sees his brother sin a sin which is not to death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for those who sin not to death. There is a sin to death; I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not to death.

Note: Does "a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation" sound like salvation to you? If not the once saved always saved is false according to this scripture. This applies to those who sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, so to people who were on the right path at one time, but willfully chose to forsake Christ and go back into the world. This is likely what John referred to as "a sin to death" (1 John 5:16).

#3.30 THE WORKS OF THE FLESH WILL CONDEMN THOSE WHO DO THEM
GALATIANS 5:19-21 (Paul)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, uncontrolled conduct,
20 Idolatry, use of drugs, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envying, murders, drunkenness, revelry, and such like: of which I telling you before, as I have also told you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: This scripture makes it quite clear that if someone continues committing the works of the flesh after becoming a believer in Jesus, then they will not enter the kingdom of God. That means not saved.

Let's discuss.
Johann

No

 

[Johann]

God let’s us choose what we want to believe, but He also tells us the consequences of not believing, the Truth in His Word, which He has given all mankind, via the Holy Spirit, through the prophets, through Jesus, and through the Apostles, in His Love.

If you wish to believe OSAS, that is your personal choice, scripture confirms, you or I, have nothing to worry about, providing we are born again of water through baptism and spirit from above, and that we bear fruit, ‘for God’, and follow Jesus’ Commands; except possibly answering to the Lord for teaching untruths.

John 15:1-17, we note is not a verse here or a verse there, but an orderly message from Jesus, described in parable form, ‘to give us the picture’, so that we can all clearly understand what Jesus is saying.

Blessed are the little children for their’s is the Kingdom of Heaven.

I believe that OSAS is dangerous talk, it easily gives the wrong impression, that people can follow the world, go to confession and ay oh heaven awaits!

OSAS allows people to think that if they do not bear fruit now, but have in the past, they will go to heaven when they die!

They choose to follow the world and not the creator, they allow the fruit they had to die whilst in the vine, Jesus warns us
that God who tends to the vine will, ‘cut these out, they will wither and be burnt’. There are plenty of warnings of the consequences of following the broad way and not keeping to the narrow path ‘that leads to life eternal’.

In my personal view, based on the considerations some put forward for believing OSAS, and listening carefully to what Jesus kindly and clearly explains, in John 15; I cannot see any reason to believe in OSAS. No one has given explanations that stand up for this thinking, based on all the scriptures, remembering always that, all scriptures are God breathed.

I also believe to choose one scripture over another is dangerous, every word, every verse, every sentence, every book, letter or testament is God breathed. If we choose to accept one section over another, rejecting the first to accept what we feel is right in others, we are in effect saying, we know better than God.

As we all know there are verses that ‘appear’ to conflict, that is why we are told to pray the Holy Spirit to guide us and reveal The Truth to us, we are also told, to search the scriptures, never does it say we are to discard any, or choose one over another.’ All scripture is from God, He knows why every Word that has been included has been included. One day we will know for sure, providing we are still in the vine, still obeying the Commands our Lord has given us. \o/

I respect your views, we share in love, but I cannot accept your reasoning for accepting OSAS.

Shalom

1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

May know (εἰδῆτε)
Not perceive (γινώσκειν), but know with settled and absolute knowledge. See on Joh_2:24.
ειδητε
G1492
V-RAS-2P
οἶδα
to see


Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Subjunctive
Person: second [you+]
Number: Plural


1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Is come (hēkei). Present active indicative, but the root has a perfect sense, “has come.” See exēlthon kai hēkō in Joh_8:42.
An understanding (dianoian). Here alone in John’s writings, but in Paul (Eph_4:18) and Peter (1Pe_1:13). John does not use gnōsis (knowledge) and nous (mind) only in Rev_13:18; Rev_17:9.
That we know (hina ginōskomen). Result clause with hina and the present active indicative, as is common with hina and the future indicative (Joh_7:3). It is possible that here o was pronounced ō as a subjunctive, but many old MSS. have hina ginōskousin (plainly indicative) in Joh_17:3, and in many other places in the N.T. the present indicative with hina occurs as a variant reading as in Joh_5:20.
Him that is true (ton alēthinon). That is, God. Cf. 1Jn_1:8.
In him that is true (en tōi alēthinōi). In God in contrast with the world “in the evil one” (1Jn_5:19). See Joh_17:3.
Even in his Son Jesus Christ (en tōi huiōi autou Iēsou Christōi). The autou refers clearly to en tōi alēthinōi (God). Hence this clause is not in apposition with the preceding, but an explanation as to how we are “in the True One” by being “in his Son Jesus Christ.”
This (houtos). Grammatically houtos may refer to Jesus Christ or to “the True One.” It is a bit tautological to refer it to God, but that is probably correct, God in Christ, at any rate. God is eternal life (Joh_5:26) and he gives it to us through Christ.
Robertson

So, if I understand you correctly, you are not sure re your salvation? If, as you say, OSAS is a false doctrine?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Are you sure about your salvation brother? We all slip and slide, and sometimes, like the prodigal, wandering off into "no mans land"

If I am not sure re my salvation, I have no hope, and can live, eat, and be merry, for tomorrow I might die.

Like I have said before, I don't know what OSAS is and their beliefs, I found this to be true according to Scriptures.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

This is a bit of a translation issue. KJV and a couple of other say "sealed". But the majority say "marked with a seal".

Brother, thank you for the "correction" but I have problems with the AMPC
εσφραγισθητε
G4972
V-API-2P
σφραγίζω
to stamp for security
σφραγίζω
sphragízō; fut. sphragísō, from sphragís (G4973), seal. To seal, trans.:
(I) To seal, close up and make fast with a seal signet such as letters or books so that they may not be read (Sept.: 1Ki_21:8; Isa_29:11; Dan_12:4). Hence, figuratively of lips, to keep in silence, not to make known, with the acc. (Rev_10:4; Rev_22:10; Sept.: Dan_8:26). Generally, to seal or set a seal for the sake of security upon a sepulcher, prison, with the acc. (Mat_27:66; Rev_20:3; Sept.: Son_4:12). Figuratively, to secure to someone, make sure, deliver over safely, in the mid. with the acc. and dat. (Rom_15:28 [cf. Deu_32:34; 2Ki_22:4]).
(II) Generally, to set a seal or mark upon a thing as a token of its authenticity or approvedness; used of persons, with the acc. (Rev_7:3); pass. (Rev_7:4-8). More often of decrees or documents, to attest by a seal (Sept.: Est_8:8, Est_8:10; Job_14:17). Hence figuratively, to attest, confirm, establish, with the acc. (Joh_6:27 [cf. Joh_5:36]), followed by hóti (G3754), that (Joh_3:33). So also of Christians whom God attests and confirms by the gift of the Holy Spirit as the earnest, pledge, or seal of their election to salvation. Mid. with the acc. (2Co_1:22); pass. (Eph_1:13; Eph_4:30).

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
Person: second [you+]
Number: Plural


sphragizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
1d1a) of a written document
1d1b) to prove one’s testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4973

Hence my question, can a believer be "marked" with a seal, unsealed, sealed again. unsealed?

The KJV is my primary study bible, and I prefer the studies of the morphologies as it stands written in scriptures.

As you can see, I know we have been marked with the seal of YHVH

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Notice Jesus calls this a "work". It's still a work on your part.

That is the key point brother, is it not.

Gods will not forsake us, it is we who could forsake him, and some do.

* The obedience of faith is to believe on Him Whom God has sent, His only Begotten Son

Amen sister, continually believe on Him, from faith to faith. That is to abide in the vine, continually. He abides in us, we must abide in Him. He will not forsake us, but we could forsake Him!

If we do not abide in Him, we are abiding more in the world, we are abiding more in sin. The fruit in the vine starts to reduce and decay.
We are warned, the Father will cut away these unfruitful members, they will be removed, thrown away to wither and be burnt.

He has not forsaking us, it is because we who were grafted into the vine, to abide, obey and bear fruit, have instead chosen to abide less, obey less and as a result we no longer bear the good fruit we did.

The Father has no option but to cut out the unproductive parts because if he doesn’t the vine as a whole could suffer, he prunes out the bad to encourage the good.

Thanks be to God

 

[Brother-Paul]

1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

May know (εἰδῆτε)
Not perceive (γινώσκειν), but know with settled and absolute knowledge. See on Joh_2:24.
ειδητε
G1492
V-RAS-2P
οἶδα
to see


Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Subjunctive
Person: second [you+]
Number: Plural

Greetings @Johann

The verses tell us what God has given us, and that we who believe on the Name of Jesus, may know we have eternal life and believe in Jesus Name.

But as we also know, ALL scripture is God breathed, so to be saved in the first place we must be Born Again of water (baptism) and Spirit (from above). We must have repented, we must have crucified our old self and declared our faith, with our lips and from our heart.

As for the word believe on its own, this is open to many thoughts, even the devil believes there is Jesus, he even tried to tempt him but failed.

This is why it is so important to accept ALL scripture and never focus on one set of scriptures against another. John 15 is a lovely chapter, Jesus preaches, as he does in parable form, He gives a very clear picture, we are grafted in and can be pruned out.

To believe OSAS, is to excluded what Jesus tells us in John 15.

To accept all scripture is God breathed, which it is, is to know clearly when we have repented and given our all to God through Jesus, we are grafted into the vine, we are promised salvation, but we must continue to abide in Christ, to remain in his love, to obey his commands and bear fruit, good fruit, for God from whom all blessings flow.

In His Love

 

[Brother-Paul]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are not sure re your salvation? If, as you say, OSAS is a false doctrine?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Are you sure about your salvation brother? We all slip and slide, and sometimes, like the prodigal, wandering off into "no mans land"

If I am not sure re my salvation, I have no hope, and can live, eat, and be merry, for tomorrow I might die.

Like I have said before, I don't know what OSAS is and their beliefs, I found this to be true according to Scriptures.

Shalom
Johann

Greetings @Johann

I am saying, those who refer to OSAS are incorrect and that it is dangerous to think such, even worse to preach it.

The reason I confirm my disagreement to the idea of OSAS, is clear, John 15:1-17 tells me otherwise.

We are grafted into the vine when born again from above, but as Jesus clearly states we can be pruned out of the vine. There are no half way points, we are in the vine or we are not, we have received the promise of salvation or due to OUR falling away into sin, we do not bear fruit for God do are cut out.

To reply to your question about my salvation; I am sure of my salvation, I love the Lord as much today as I did from day one of giving my life to Him, I believe in my heart I love Him more today than I did thirty years ago.

How can I be sure of my salvation? Because Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, I come to God through Him, I love the Lord more than my wife, myself, our children or anything else. I follow God’s Word, constantly searching the scriptures, yes I make errors and sin but I am forgiven. I abide in Christ and He abides in me, I try as much as I can to bear good fruit for the father through Jesus. Simply put, all of us who do these things daily have no concern for our salvation. How can we be 100% sure, his spirit reveals it to our spirit, and God has said it in His Word.

The only ones that need to be concerned are, the totally lost souls, and those who gave their life to the Lord and do not abide in Him, who do not follow and obey His commands, those whose love has grown cold, those who no longer bear good fruit.

Once the sap does not run through the branches God will prune them out. Why does the sap stop running through the branch? Because of sin, the sap in Jesus parable refers to the Righteous Holy Spirit, abiding with our spirit, but if we return to sin, we are not abiding in Christ, the fruit stops, the branch, which could be our branch if we fall away from abiding in Christ and into sin, has to be pruned out so as not to affect the who vine.

Jesus’ parables are amazing, so graphical, he gives us a picture so clear we cannot but fail to see The Truth He speaks, thank you Lord.

Shalom my friend

Jesus loves you I do too