Pre, Mid or Post

[ATP]

The one you quoted me on this page 7.

Cool. My thoughts also......Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur, at the sixth seal. There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars and there will be earthquakes.

Isaiah 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
Rev 6:12-13 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

 

[Chad]

Check out the awesome preaching by the reputable David Jeremiah on the rapture. He believes in pre-tribulation also and explains it in simplicity and truth.

Sermons | Talk Jesus

There are three parts to the video sermon.

 

[ATP]

Check out the awesome preaching by the reputable David Jeremiah on the rapture. He believes in pre-tribulation also and explains it in simplicity and truth.

Sermons | Talk Jesus

There are three parts to the video sermon.

What are your thoughts on post 141.

 

[NoHype]

Who are you addressing to as Pharisees here? Anyone who doesn't agree with you?

False Jews, whether they hide among Christians, or among the true seed of Israel.

 

[NoHype]

May I also introduce you to a very serious problem that your eschatology introduces NoHype.

If you hold to the premise that a temple must exist on the temple mount before Jesus will return. Then it holds also, that
we know that the return of Jesus cannot occur before the third temple is built.

If we know that Jesus cannot return until the building of the third temple is completed. Then we of course know that the
only time period that we need to heed is the time period after this third temple is built. In other words, eat and drink to your
hearts content, and give your slave a good whooping boy, because Jesus is not returning any time soon.

This seems to fly in the face of what Jesus said later in this chapter NoHype.

What actually 'flies in the face' of what Jesus warned us about is believing men's traditions that rejects the very prophecy in Daniel 11:31 involving a standing Jewish temple at the end of this world which involves what Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet discourse.

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Another 'fly in the face' is the stupidity of those who try to claim Antiochus IV already fulfilled that Daniel 11 prophecy about the "vile person" and placing of the abomination that maketh desolate, when around 200 years later, Jesus quoted it as an event for the end of this world!

 

[Samson2020]

I have been asked a lot of questions in this thread but have yet to hear a good answer for my first question in this thread. Who are the flesh bodied people that are dying in the Millennium?

Those people will be those who are born during the millennium, as well as those who survived the tribulation period who are the eventual parents of the
populated earth.
As we see that at the start of the millennium that a man is more rare than fine gold, but at the end of the millennial reign men are as the sands of the sea.
Isaiah 13:9-12
Rev 20:7-8
Rev 22:14-15

 

[NoHype]

Those people will be those who are born during the millennium, as well as those who survived the tribulation period who are the eventual parents of the
populated earth.
As we see that at the start of the millennium that a man is more rare than fine gold, but at the end of the millennial reign men are as the sands of the sea.
Isaiah 13:9-12
Rev 20:7-8
Rev 22:14-15

The future Millennium, i.e. Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect saints will not be in flesh bodies. There's won't be flesh people still making babies then either.

The idea of flesh bodies in the world to come is an old Jewish doctrine by the Jews who do not understand New Testament doctrine about 2 Corinthians 5, and 1 Corinthians 15 concerning the resurrection of both the Just and also of the unjust.

Like Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 on the day of His future coming, all... in the graves will come forth, both those of the "resurrection of life" and those of the "resurrection of damnation". And those 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 still alive on earth will be suddenly 'changed' to their "spiritual body" at the twinkling of an eye. Paul is including the wicked on earth still alive with that 'change' also, as he was pulling from the Isaiah 25 Scripture which shows the veil of this covering (flesh) will be cast off for all... nations.

That is what the idea of death being swallowed up in victory on that day of Christ's future return will be about. Many instead think Jesus victory over death already put that into effect upon His cross, when He only defeated death and the devil on His cross, with the PHYSICAL RESULT that He accomplished by that defeat is still for the world to come when He returns, regarding the redemption of our "spiritual body", which is when He will reign over all His enemies, with Satan locked in his pit prison during that reign of Rev.20.

So in the world to come of Christ's future Millennium reign, there won't be one group of His resurrected elect walking around in spirit bodies, while His elect still alive on earth that are caught up walk around in flesh bodies, nor the wicked still alive still in flesh bodies, with the resurrected wicked in spirit bodies. That's confusion. Everyone... including the wicked unsaved, will be in spirit bodies for the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign. And that means the time of people born in the flesh of today will be over in that world to come.

 

[Samson2020]

The future Millennium, i.e. Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect saints will not be in flesh bodies. There's won't be flesh people still making babies then either.

The idea of flesh bodies in the world to come is an old Jewish doctrine by the Jews who do not understand New Testament doctrine about 2 Corinthians 5, and 1 Corinthians 15 concerning the resurrection of both the Just and also of the unjust.

Like Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 on the day of His future coming, all... in the graves will come forth, both those of the "resurrection of life" and those of the "resurrection of damnation". And those 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 still alive on earth will be suddenly 'changed' to their "spiritual body" at the twinkling of an eye. Paul is including the wicked on earth still alive with that 'change' also, as he was pulling from the Isaiah 25 Scripture which shows the veil of this covering (flesh) will be cast off for all... nations.

That is what the idea of death being swallowed up in victory on that day of Christ's future return will be about. Many instead think Jesus victory over death already put that into effect upon His cross, when He only defeated death and the devil on His cross, with the PHYSICAL RESULT that He accomplished by that defeat is still for the world to come when He returns, regarding the redemption of our "spiritual body", which is when He will reign over all His enemies, with Satan locked in his pit prison during that reign of Rev.20.

So in the world to come of Christ's future Millennium reign, there won't be one group of His resurrected elect walking around in spirit bodies, while His elect still alive on earth that are caught up walk around in flesh bodies, nor the wicked still alive still in flesh bodies, with the resurrected wicked in spirit bodies. That's confusion. Everyone... including the wicked unsaved, will be in spirit bodies for the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign. And that means the time of people born in the flesh of today will be over in that world to come.

Ok,
Explain who these are then.

Rev 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are ended Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS, which
are in the 4 quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea

I agree with you that during the millennial reign those whom are with the Lord have been changed (in the twinkling of an eye) and we shall be like Him.
Thus if we choose to put on a body, like a change of clothes, we can and will.

 

[NoHype]

Ok,
Explain who these are then.

Rev 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are ended Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS, which
are in the 4 quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea

I agree with you that during the millennial reign those whom are with the Lord have been changed (in the twinkling of an eye) and we shall be like Him.
Thus if

Firstly, why don't you actually read... what I wrote in my previous post where you can find answers to that question? I don't offer Scripture evidence to try and prove how smart I am or anything like that.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

 

[NoHype]

I am studying the End Times Prophecy. I thought I was a Pre-Trib believer, but then I studied the Post-Trib viewpoint and now I am confused. I can see both sides of these two beliefs. I understand that Clarence Larkins brought in the Pre-Trib theory. Is he legit?:crazy:

I don't believe your claimed confusion. I don't believe you are being honest, and I'm calling you out for it.

A simple reading of the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Lord Jesus Christ Himself, reveals beyond ALL doubt that His future coming is AFTER... THE TRIBULATION to gather His faithful saints. Anything else is a doctrine of the devil.


Anyone can come to a Christian forum, and claim to be Christian, and spout falsehoods that go against the written Word of God, and claim they are speaking from what God showed them. In reality, a lot of them are listening to 'another spirit' and not God. The Holy Spirit will never, ever, disagree with The Word of God.

So those who say different than what Jesus said there in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, either have 'another spirit' they are listening to, or they are listening to some false preacher that has 'another spirit'. And Apostle Paul warned us about this very thing in 2 Corinthians 11 about those preaching the "another Jesus".

So if a fellow-Christian is not familiar with what Jesus said in that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, I suggest you get on board with study of God's Word, and leave man's word by the wayside.

 

[Samson2020]

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

And this does not happen until AFTER the 1000 yr reign at the second resurrection.
Your time line is messed up.
Those gathered to battle at the end of the millennial reign are those that will be born of those who came through the day of the Lord. Not us but men.

In Isaiah 13 there is a prophecy of the DAY OF LORD in verse 12 it states
"I will make a man more precious that fine gold.............." this signifies that a non believer is still on the face of the earth when the reign begins.

Isaiah 60 is a good chapter for the vision of the coming kingdom.
12- "For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish, those nations shall be utterly wasted."
This is to occur DURING the millennial reign, so who are they of the nations? And where did they come from? As the dead who are not in Christ have
not been raised yet they have no choice but to be those born during the millennial reign.

 

[Samson2020]

A simple reading of the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Lord Jesus Christ Himself, reveals beyond ALL doubt that His future coming is AFTER... THE TRIBULATION to gather His faithful saints. Anything else is a doctrine of the devil.

I agree with this whole heartedly. And it aligns with the opening of the 6th seal. It is what happens to the believers during the 5th seal period they wish
to run from, but why should a dead man run from death? Unless they really aren't dead in the Lord yet?

 

[NoHype]

And this does not happen until AFTER the 1000 yr reign at the second resurrection.

Uh... what?!? That John 5:28-29 Scripture happens on the day of Christ's future return at the END of this PRESENT WORLD. That is when God's Word reveals when Christ's return is, on the 'last day' of this present world. And God's Word calls that day the "day of the Lord" or "day of Christ". How can you not know this? Who are you listening to instead?

Your time line is messed up.

It's the other way around, you are listening to a false preacher, and not staying in The Word of God at all!

Those gathered to battle at the end of the millennial reign are those that will be born of those who came through the day of the Lord. Not us but men.

What?!? Nah, you are confusing the Gog/Magog label. The Gog/Magog gathering at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign is NOT... the same Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38 & 39.

The Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog involves SPECIFIC NATIONS named in that Ezekiel 38 Chapter. That is for the time of Christ's future return on the 'last day' of this present world; that is when Christ's coming of Revelation 19 happens with the battle of Armageddon. That happens on the "day of the Lord" which is the LAST DAY of this world we are in right now. You've either listened to someone preaching that doesn't understand this difference, or you've confused the two events which are at two different times.

In Isaiah 13 there is a prophecy of the DAY OF LORD in verse 12 it states
"I will make a man more precious that fine gold.............." this signifies that a non believer is still on the face of the earth when the reign begins.

Come on, you haven't really studied what that "day of the Lord" is about. In 2 Peter 3:10, Apostle Peter shows that "day of the Lord" is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. Even that Isaiah 13:9-13 Scripture shows it is the day when God will terribly shake this earth again, which is linked with the end of Hebrews 12 about the time of God's consuming fire and shaking of this earth "once more".

Isaiah 60 is a good chapter for the vision of the coming kingdom.
12- "For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish, those nations shall be utterly wasted."
This is to occur DURING the millennial reign, so who are they of the nations? And where did they come from? As the dead who are not in Christ have
not been raised yet they have no choice but to be those born during the millennial reign.

Isaiah 60 is... about the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20 and forward. That time is NOT YET TODAY. Christ's kingdom is here on earth today in SPIRIT only. His physical kingdom to come won't begin here on earth until the final day of this present world when He returns, on the "day of the Lord".

Also, in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul revealed that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and when the deceived at the end of this world begin to say, "Peace and safety", that is when "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Apostle Paul was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets about the "day of the Lord". It is to happen suddenly, at an instant, on the last day of this present world. That event is also what Paul was pointing to in 1 Corinthians 15 with the 'change' at the "last trump" happening "at the twinkling of an eye".

 

[Samson2020]

Isaiah 60 is... about the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20 and forward. That time is NOT YET TODAY. Christ's kingdom is here on earth today in SPIRIT only. His physical kingdom to come won't begin here on earth until the final day of this present world when He returns, on the "day of the Lord".

And that was the point. At the time of the future kingdom here on earth the nations and kingdoms that will not serve Him at that time shall be
utterly destroyed. Thus they are people born after the day of the Lord.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

This is the second resurrection AFTER the 1000 yr reign.

In 28 the word ALL is used, not his ELECT. They were raised 1000 yrs earlier.

For the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 yrs were finished, this is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:5
6- Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection.......

 

[NoHype]

Cool. My thoughts also......Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur, at the sixth seal. There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars and there will be earthquakes.

Isaiah 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
Rev 6:12-13 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Actually, Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, by Jesus' Own Words, is telling us WHEN the rapture will occur...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

And those 2 Scriptures above by Lord Jesus is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Jesus' future coming and gathering of His faithful Church:

In the Matthew 24:31 example, it is a direct link to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 about the 'asleep' saints which Jesus brings with Him from heaven when He comes.

In the Mark 13:27 example, it is a direct link to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 about those still alive who are "caught up".


So Jesus was speaking that directly to His Church while upon the Mount of Olives there with His disciples, the very foundation of His Church per Ephesians 2. When Apostle Paul taught it in 1 Thess.4 he had to have gotten that from Lord Jesus Himself.

Jesus comes AFTER... the "great tribulation", NOT before it.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

It's Pre for me! The Great Tribulation is not the same as trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would suffer through. And, as far as the Great Tribulation goes, I beleive it is after Rapture and we either transformed in a blink of an eye or we are raised imperishable first. In either case we are not subject to the Great Tribulation.

Wow You'll have to explain that one

 

[B-A-C]

The Great Tribulation is not the same as trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would suffer through.

That's true, however the tribulation period in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is clearly spelled out.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

..."a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now"...

What great tribulation could be greater than "the" great tribulation? It certainly wasn't the fall of Jerusalem in 70ad. That lasted six months at most, and affected roughly 50,000 people in one single city with an estimated population of about 200,000.
Hitler killed over 7 million Jews over a period of about 5 years. Hitler would have been much closer to the great tribulation than the siege of Jerusalem in 70ad. In fact, the estimated military deaths alone from World War II are between 20 and 25 million.
A lot of people think it was Nero who was Emperor when Jerusalem was destroyed, but no Nero had already died two years before.

...."but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short"....

Why are elect still here? If it was a pre-trib rapture, wouldn't the elect already be gone?

Also, if the Bible says the tribulation will be two periods of roughly 42 months, or 1,260 days, or a times time and half a time, and the abomination of desolation will last 1,290 days ( Dan 12:11; ) this is about 7 years give or take a few days.
The siege of Jerusalem wasn't even 7 months, much less seven years. The abomination of desolation couldn't have been performed during this time, because the temple wasn't even standing for 1,290 days ( 3 1/2 years ).

Jesus said "every" stone would be overturns ( Matt 24:2; ) this is controversial, because depending on which web site you visit ( it's about 50% / 50% ) the wailing wall was part of the temple. Other's say the wailing wall wasn't part of the temple.
But if it was part of the temple, then either Jesus was wrong about "every" stone being overturned, or else it hasn't happened yet.

 

[B-A-C]

The most commonly quoted passages to support a pre-trib rapture are...

1Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Thes 4:18; Therefore comfort one another with these words.

2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Unlike Matthew 24 and Mark 13, this passage doesn't give us any specific timing. It doesn't say "after" the tribulation like Matt 24:29-31; and Mark 13:24-27; do. But it doesn't say "before" either.
So then it's easy to say it's before ( pre-trib ) because it doesn't say it's after. In fact the only two things that give us any clue to the timing of this are that there will be a great apostasy ( 2Thes 2:3; )
and the man of lawlessness will be revealed ( 2Thes 2:3; ) other than that, we have no timing markers. But it's important to notice here, that even in Thessalonians, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
will not happen until "after" the great apostasy and the man of lawlessness ( the beast ) are revealed. That will be a clue. Once the beast is revealed, then we know the time is close.

2Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

1Thes 4 says the dead in Christ will rise "first". It says Jesus will bring those who have fallen asleep ( they have already died a physical death ) back to life. But 2Tim 2:18; makes it clear
this has not already happened yet. This is important because people try spiritualize the second coming, and say Jesus has already returned. He is in our hearts. That's true, but that was
already true before the books of Thessalonians and Timothy were written, so obviously it's talking about something else. A different kind of return.

Let us take a moment and compare these two passages.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Some people say that Matt 24 is about the second coming, and they say it's different event from the rapture in Thessalonians. But is it? Is there any thing to support that?
There are a lot of similarities. For one thing a trumpet will sound in both passages. ( 1Thes 4:16; and Matt 24:31; ) another things is that the angels will gather up the elect in Matt 24 and Mark 13, and there will be the voice
of the archangel in 1Thess 4:16; Finally both passage say we will meet Jesus in the clouds ( 1Thes 4:17; and Matt 24:30-31; ). So then why do people think these are two separate events?
Some people say, one is talking about gathering people up, and the other is talking about Jesus returning to the Earth. But no it doesn't say that anywhere in these passages. In fact both passages are very similar.
1Thes 4:17; says we will be "caught up" together to meet Jesus in the air. Matt 24:31 says we will be gathered together to meet Jesus in the sky.

There is no evidence that these are two separate events. It's the same trumpet on same day, with the same angels taking us to meet the same Lord in the sky ( or clouds ).
Thessalonians says it won't happen until after the great apostasy and the beast is revealed. Matthew and Mark say it will be "after" the great tribulation. ( Matt 24:31; Mark 13:24; )
Obviously once the tribulation starts, everyone will know who the beast is.

Some people quote this verse...
Matt 24:36; "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
I believe Jesus didn't know when He said that, and it's also possible He doesn't even know now. However...

2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

..since these things will happen first ( even if you're a pre-tribber you can't deny this ). Jesus will know the time is very close.

Matt 24:40; "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Is that passage about the rapture or the second coming? Notice it's in Matthew 24 after the verse that says "after the tribulation".

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Just like in Mark 13, Matt 24, and 1Thess 4, it says here that Jesus will "send forth His angels". In this case, they are not gathering up the saved ( the elect )
in fact quite the opposite. They are gathering up the tares. They are pulling people out of the kingdom of God who are stumbling blocks and continue to live
in lawlessness. ..."they will gather out of His kingdom"... these people and throw them in the furnace of fire.