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[Brian_32]

Thanks for explaining it is very interesting to see the different views of people .. I don't agree with the flesh being in the millennium.. I think when Christ returns we are all change into our spiritual bodies.. But either way it does no harm .. We are all Gods children we may have different views. But we are still on the same side .. I hope you don't take any offense in my statements because that is not my intention at all.. I think it helps studying when you can look at scripture from a different angle and knowing others views gives me new ways to look at scripture .. Thanks again.. God bless!!!

I don't take offense. Its the nature of forums. We have people from different backgrounds, denominations, and viewpoints getting together in one place. I agree that it is good to hear other peoples angle on things because it helps me sharpen my own understanding. By the way, there was once upon a time when I was just as much against the pre-trib Rapture as anyone. I had a change of heart about it after some studying though. I dont pretend to know it all or have it all figured out perfectly. I'm just trying to put it all together just like everyone else

 

[Frony111]

Every verse you mentioned is concerning Jesus's second coming to earth, and has nothing to do with the rapture. It can be argued that the four Gospels, which are primarily concerning Israel, never even mentions the rapture (maybe john 14 1-3 does), but only the Second Coming to earth.

There will be a resurrection at the Second Coming, and I believe it will involve the Old Testament Saints, and those who were saved and martyred during the tribulation. I have doubts that the Old Testament Saints will be part of the resurrection that happens at the Rapture of the Church, but only those who are part of the Church age. Let me ask you, how is someone a part of this Church age? It is by Spirit baptism , , and when did that begin? It began at Pentecost in . Many, including myself, believe that is the Birthday of the Church age as we know it today.

Many people don't realize it, but the four Gospels are still mostly Old Testament because a New Testament doesn't begin until the death of the testator . We see that white sheet of paper in our Bibles that says "New Testament" just before the book of Matthew, but that is not when it begins. Much of the four Gospels is under the law, and concerning Israel. If we fail to distinguish between Israel and the Church, then we will think all Second Coming and Rapture passages are one and the same. I understand the middle wall of partition was broken down in this Church age, but it wasn't like that during the four Gospels , and God will once again continue his program with Israel (which is what Daniels 70th week is all about) after the Rapture of the Church. That's why sounds so Jewish when it speaks of "then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." and "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath" ....its not because it all happened in 70 AD, but its because its gonna happen in the tribulation when good resumes his program with Israel after the Rapture of the Church.

If people that have died are still in the ground waiting for Christ to return how do you interpret 1cor. Chapter 5 vs.6-7 and Ecclesiastes 12 vs7-8 .. Luke 16 the beggar in the bosom of Abraham.. 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 vs 13 where most pre-rapture believers turn.. It would not be comforting to me to think of my loved ones laying in the ground waiting for Christ to return.. Also I don't think God would use newly converted Christians to speak through.. But like I said we may have different opinions but we are still on the same side .. I don't want to offend anyone by my views because it is only my opinion I'm sure I'm wrong on many views that is why I like to see other Christian views.. It helps me study the bible .. Thanks..

 

[Brian_32]

If people that have died are still in the ground waiting for Christ to return how do you interpret 1cor. Chapter 5 vs.6-7 and Ecclesiastes 12 vs7-8 .. Luke 16 the beggar in the bosom of Abraham.. 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 vs 13 where most pre-rapture believers turn.. It would not be comforting to me to think of my loved ones laying in the ground waiting for Christ to return.. Also I don't think God would use newly converted Christians to speak through.. But like I said we may have different opinions but we are still on the same side .. I don't want to offend anyone by my views because it is only my opinion I'm sure I'm wrong on many views that is why I like to see other Christian views.. It helps me study the bible .. Thanks..

If you disagree with me or feel something I'm saying is in error, you are more than free to point it out. I wont get offended in the least. That's why its a discussion forum.

I believe our spirit returns to God at death. Paul speaks of being with Christ at death Philippians 1:23 , but the Bible still clearly teaches a physical, bodily resurrection.

I see no reason why God wouldn't use a newly converted Christian. He sure used Paul after he was newly converted on the road to Damascus.

 

[Frony111]

If you disagree with me or feel something I'm saying is in error, you are more than free to point it out. I wont get offended in the least. That's why its a discussion forum.

I believe our spirit returns to God at death. Paul speaks of being with Christ at death , but the Bible still clearly teaches a physical, bodily resurrection.

I see no reason why God wouldn't use a newly converted Christian. He sure used Paul after he was newly converted on the road to Damascus.

I don't think Paul was converted then he knew scripture very well he just failed to realize that Christ was the Messiah.. Until he was struck down.. Again just my opinion

 

[norapture]

Every verse you mentioned is concerning Jesus's second coming to earth, and has nothing to do with the rapture. It can be argued that the four Gospels, which are primarily concerning Israel, never even mentions the rapture (maybe john 14 1-3 does), but only the Second Coming to earth.

There will be a resurrection at the Second Coming, and I believe it will involve the Old Testament Saints, and those who were saved and martyred during the tribulation. I have doubts that the Old Testament Saints will be part of the resurrection that happens at the Rapture of the Church, but only those who are part of the Church age. Let me ask you, how is someone a part of this Church age? It is by Spirit baptism , , and when did that begin? It began at Pentecost in . Many, including myself, believe that is the Birthday of the Church age as we know it today.

Many people don't realize it, but the four Gospels are still mostly Old Testament because a New Testament doesn't begin until the death of the testator . We see that white sheet of paper in our Bibles that says "New Testament" just before the book of Matthew, but that is not when it begins. Much of the four Gospels is under the law, and concerning Israel. If we fail to distinguish between Israel and the Church, then we will think all Second Coming and Rapture passages are one and the same. I understand the middle wall of partition was broken down in this Church age, but it wasn't like that during the four Gospels , and God will once again continue his program with Israel (which is what Daniels 70th week is all about) after the Rapture of the Church. That's why sounds so Jewish when it speaks of "then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." and "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath" ....its not because it all happened in 70 AD, but its because its gonna happen in the tribulation when God resumes his program with Israel after the Rapture of the Church.

Hey are you blind ?
To say the 4 gospels isn't for the church is herise. St. John 6:53&54
Jesus is referring to the church here or do you thing he was talking about, his real blood and his real flesh
And if you don't eat his body and drink his flesh you have no life in you
His body is the church
And the Spirit is the blood
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
Are not we all partakers by his body ( the church) Have we all not been made to drink in to one Spirit
Did you not read St John 6:54 do you not know what he meant, do you thing he was talking about.
Have you not read this verse Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, watch.
St John 17;whole chapter this is his prayer in the garden
Verse 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Verse 20 Neither pray I for these alone; but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
Now Jesus didn't pray that we would be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil.
So you pray all you like that you will get ruptured out it still won't happen, cause that what Jesus wanted.

I like the way you pull scripture from Isaiah to try to prove something you been taught.
But when I use scripture you come up with accuse .
Like I said before you will add what you have to for you can keep you believes.
And now you will even try to take away The 4 gospel from the church
Just to hold your believes
Besides you can show one verse in the word that says the church is leaving before his coming. Not one , and I challenge you to show me with out it being his coming. And you sure can't show rapture.

 

[Frony111]

Hey are you blind ?
To say the 4 gospels isn't for the church is herise. St. &54
Jesus is referring to the church here or do you thing he was talking about, his real blood and his real flesh
And if you don't eat his body and drink his flesh you have no life in you
His body is the church
And the Spirit is the blood

Are not we all partakers by his body ( the church) Have we all not been made to drink in to one Spirit
Did you not read St do you not know what he meant, do you thing he was talking about.
Have you not read this verse And what I say unto you I say unto all, watch.
St ; whole chapter this is his prayer in the garden
Verse 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Verse 20 Neither pray I for these alone; but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
Now Jesus didn't pray that we would be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil.
So you pray all you like that you will get ruptured out it still won't happen, cause that what Jesus wanted.

I like the way you pull scripture from Isaiah to try to prove something you been taught.
But when I use scripture you come up with accuse .
Like I said before you will add what you have to for you can keep you believes.
And now you will even try to take away The 4 gospel from the church
Just to hold your believes
Besides you can show one verse in the word that says the church is leaving before his coming. Not one , and I challenge you to show me with out it being his coming. And you sure can't show rapture.

I agree no verse says that.. But watch 1st thess. 4 will be mentioned also cor. 52

 

[Brian_32]

I don't think Paul was converted then he knew scripture very well he just failed to realize that Christ was the Messiah.. Until he was struck down.. Again just my opinion

Paul was definitely converted to Christianity. Converted men don't persecute the Church.

 

[Frony111]

Paul was definitely converted to Christianity. Converted men don't persecute the Church.

.

He would if someone claimed to be Jesus and he didn't agree.. If he was not a Christian before struck down.. Why would he care what they said..

 

[Brian_32]

Hey are you blind ?
To say the 4 gospels isn't for the church is herise. St. John 6:53&54
Jesus is referring to the church here or do you thing he was talking about, his real blood and his real flesh
And if you don't eat his body and drink his flesh you have no life in you
His body is the church
And the Spirit is the blood
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
Are not we all partakers by his body ( the church) Have we all not been made to drink in to one Spirit
Did you not read St John 6:54 do you not know what he meant, do you thing he was talking about.
Have you not read this verse Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, watch.
St John 17;whole chapter this is his prayer in the garden
Verse 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Verse 20 Neither pray I for these alone; but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
Now Jesus didn't pray that we would be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil.
So you pray all you like that you will get ruptured out it still won't happen, cause that what Jesus wanted.

I like the way you pull scripture from Isaiah to try to prove something you been taught.
But when I use scripture you come up with accuse .
Like I said before you will add what you have to for you can keep you believes.
And now you will even try to take away The 4 gospel from the church
Just to hold your believes
Besides you can show one verse in the word that says the church is leaving before his coming. Not one , and I challenge you to show me with out it being his coming. And you sure can't show rapture.

First of all, I didn't say the four Gospels isn't for the Church, but much of what Jesus taught was definitely concerning Israel. If you want, I could give you a long list of things Jesus taught that no Christian obeys (including you) or even should or could obey because it involved either a temple or the Mosaic Law Matthew 5:23-24, Luke 5:14. Jesus was born "under the law" Galatians 4:4. I'm not blind, I can read Matthew 10:5-6 very clearly. There is much in the four Gospels that is concerning the Church, and much that isn't, but even that which is to Israel, has application for the Church.

St John 17;whole chapter this is his prayer in the garden
Verse 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Verse 20 Neither pray I for these alone; but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
Now Jesus didn't pray that we would be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil.
So you pray all you like that you will get ruptured out it still won't happen, cause that what Jesus wanted.

What hour is Revelation 3:10 referring to?

 

[norapture]

I agree no verse says that.. But watch 1st thess. 4 will be mentioned also cor. 52

I know but even when they use 1Thessalonians 4:13-18
Verse 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Couple questions
Why do we meet him in the air ?
Why not just rapture us all the way to heaven. So there is a reason.

And also Paul says we which are alive and remain. OK remain to what?

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.
So this is his coming.

Verse 15 now this is why this is not no rapture, cause rapture only means caught up ( after you go thru two three words to come up with the word rapture) Now being caught up is only what happens here not what it is called. Paul plainly calls this THE COMING, he doesn't say A coming , but THE coming.

 

[Brian_32]

Couple questions
Why do we meet him in the air ?
Why not just rapture us all the way to heaven. So there is a reason.

I believe its to gather his Church and show his victory in the very territory of the enemy Ephesians 2:2, Ephesians 6:12

Paul says we which are alive and remain. OK remain to what?

Those who are asleep will "rise FIRST" 1 Thessalonians 4:16, so that means we that are alive and remain will be caught up next "with them" in the clouds immediately after that 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

it is "the coming" for his Church

 

[norapture]

First of all, I didn't say the four Gospels isn't for the Church, but much of what Jesus taught was definitely concerning Israel. If you want, I could give you a long list of things Jesus taught that no Christian obeys (including you) or even should or could obey because it involved either a temple or the Mosaic Law , . Jesus was born "under the law" . I'm not blind, I can read very clearly. There is much in the four Gospels that is concerning the Church, and much that isn't, but even that which is to Israel, has application for the Church.

What hour is referring to?

Let me ask you a Question when the Antichrist comes , would you be tempted to take the mark or number or worship him if you know the scriptures and have his Spirit. I don't believe you would.
Why because like Jesus said for thou hast kept the word of my patience!
But then world will be tempted to take it and will take it

Revelations 13:8 And ALL that dwell upon the earth Shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So this is also why they will be nobody left to live in the thousand year reign.
Because all that's left will worship the beast , so either your name is in the book or you worship the beast.
And we know what happens to them
Revelation 14:9-11

Now do you believe Revelation 3:10 say that you won't have to overcome
No it doesn't but says he that overcometh
But be of good cheer Jesus overcame the world , now he suffered we shall also suffer but he still overcame and we will also

 

[norapture]

I believe its to gather his Church and show his victory in the very territory of the enemy , 2



Those who are asleep will "rise FIRST, 6, so that means we that are alive and remain will be caught up next "with them" in the clouds immediately after that .

it is "the coming" for his Church

That's true cause when he comes is when the church goes Just like when the children was in Egypt the was protected from the plagues but suffer pharaoh wrath..
But when they left (same day)then the Red sea (wrath) fell on the Egyptians
Also Jesus said like it was in the days of Noah until they enter the ark and the Flood (wrath) came , and destroyed them all.
Just like Lot the Same Day Lot went out it rain fire and brimestone (wrath)

So when the church leaves the wrath comes the sameday , this is not the tribulation or great tribulation its his wrath that comes when he comes
Search about his wrath you will see it is when he comes.
Way to many believe the tribulation is his wrath but the wrath is only at his return

 

[norapture]

I believe its to gather his Church and show his victory in the very territory of the enemy , 2



Those who are asleep will "rise FIRST, 6, so that means we that are alive and remain will be caught up next "with them" in the clouds immediately after that .

it is "the coming" for his Church

Brian you said that we that are alive and remain will be caught up NEXT
That's not true it says we will be caught up TOGETHER with them
That dead shall rise first is not to the air they will rise from the dead then we shall be caught up together
1 Corinthians 15:52

 

[norapture]

Also Brian you think this isn't his coming but it is look at the next chapter he is still talk about this event 1Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, ye have no need that I write unto you.
Verse 2 For yousrelves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night.
So the subject in chapter 4 was about THE DAY OF THE LORD,
When is this day?

 

[Brian_32]

That's true cause when he comes is when the church goes Just like when the children was in Egypt the was protected from the plagues but suffer pharaoh wrath..
But when they left (same day)then the Red sea (wrath) fell on the Egyptians
Also Jesus said like it was in the days of Noah until they enter the ark and the Flood (wrath) came , and destroyed them all.
Just like Lot the Same Day Lot went out it rain fire and brimestone (wrath)

So when the church leaves the wrath comes the sameday , this is not the tribulation or great tribulation its his wrath that comes when he comes
Search about his wrath you will see it is when he comes.
Way to many believe the tribulation is his wrath but the wrath is only at his return

It is the Lamb (Jesus) that opens the first seal Revelation 6:1. So anything that occurs as the result of that Revelation 6:16-17, would constitute the wrath of God in my mind. Which would include the tribulation.

 

[Brian_32]

Brian you said that we that are alive and remain will be caught up NEXT
That's not true it says we will be caught up TOGETHER with them
That dead shall rise first is not to the air they will rise from the dead then we shall be caught up together
1 Corinthians 15:52

I know we will be caught up together. That's why I said "with them". However, the dead in Christ will rise first, but we will all gather back to him in the air together.

 

[norapture]

It is the Lamb (Jesus) that opens the first seal . So anything that occurs as the result of that , would constitute the wrath of God in my mind. Which would include the tribulation.

Do you think Revelation is written in order ?
Also why the six seal just before seven the last seal
Because inside the book is the wrath, that's why no man was worthy to open the book.
Revelation 6:17 For the great day if his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand. This is his coming .
So who do you think will be able to stand?

Cause the wrath is at seven same with the trumps REVELATION 11:18 his wrath is come.
The vials is the wrath Revelation 15:1
Verse 8 no man was able to enter the temple till all seven vials , were fulful

 

[Brian_32]

Also Brian you think this isn't his coming but it is look at the next chapter he is still talk about this event 1Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, ye have no need that I write unto you.
Verse 2 For yousrelves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night.
So the subject in chapter 4 was about THE DAY OF THE LORD,
When is this day?

I don't believe the day of the Lord is the subject of chapter 4.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

Paul says "But concerning".....he is changing subjects

 

[norapture]

I don't believe the day of the Lord is the subject of chapter 4.

(ASV) But concerning the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

Paul says "But concerning".....he is
changing subjects

You can not denie Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 that this was talking about the coming

The only thing you can do is add to scripture by saying that there is 2 more comings , but you won't find where in his word it says coming's with a S cause coming is a single event. But good luck finding it
Or maybe 2 raptures but in all truth you just add all that to fit your believes