Question Catholics.

[Luminary]

We are to come out of her and all false denominations. They are all false and we shouldn't be in any. Jesus can be your Teacher and your Church. The way to make Jesus your Teacher and your Church is to get his teachings in the New Testament and do what he says to do. Then he will save you and make himself your Teacher. All denominations teach falseness and you even admit that. We should not belong to any of them. There are no more churches as there were in the Bible times. We have Jesus' words availbalbe to us. Obey his words and be saved.

I can agree with most of this

I would only add that all denominations have a part of the Truth. It was part of the plan. As each one (like a limb) is doing it’s part.(many members-One body- with Christ as the head)

I’m personally not apart of any, as I’m not led to be in (just) One. But if one’s heart is lead to a specific one, then it is not my place to tell them they are wrong. For God places us where we are needed for a purpose. So I cannot judge one for claiming a specific denomination.

But I can say that they are doing things (of) themselves (traditions of men/ imaginations of their brain) instead of letting the Spirit lead it. Which is where all the falsities come in.

 

[Luminary]

@Luminary Which one are you referring to?
I'm not going to get into how the church overall has so many problems. These are but a few and at best a Catholic has only given a weak, fragile answer. Nothing in scripture to back up those few and more.
Given what you've put it doesn't address those few questions. Vague, very broad statements do not answer questions. Surely, if something is commanded by God Himself or through the Apostles there would be such things as well as instructions.
Pretty sure the almighty God Creator, Judge, and Authority doesn't "request".
"If you love me you will keep my commandments."

I refer to the confessing our sins to one another, so we may pray for each other, and our sins forgiven.
( Did you read the passage I gave you?)

But no. We are Not to call any of the Church Father. I agree.
Nor nothing on a rosary. Penances. ritual. Statues. Or praying to Saints for intervention(s) on our behalf.

 

[Luminary]

@Luminary Which one are you referring to?
I'm not going to get into how the church overall has so many problems. These are but a few and at best a Catholic has only given a weak, fragile answer. Nothing in scripture to back up those few and more.
Given what you've put it doesn't address those few questions. Vague, very broad statements do not answer questions. Surely, if something is commanded by God Himself or through the Apostles there would be such things as well as instructions.
Pretty sure the almighty God Creator, Judge, and Authority doesn't "request".
"If you love me you will keep my commandments."

“Surely, if something is commanded by God Himself or through the Apostles there would be such things as well as instructions.
Pretty sure the almighty God Creator, Judge, and Authority doesn't "request".
"If you love me you will keep my commandments."

Not all was written. Else you leave nothing for the Spirit to lead you too or reveal too you!

This was the whole point of Paul’s teachings. Was to teach us how to walk in the Spirit, after we have “died” too ourself. Only then Can God Take the reins within us to be able to lead us too the rest of His Truth.

Of course he requests. And does it through his apostles and disciples. For he works through us, as his vessels that can carry His Spirit upon the Earth.

 

[God's Truth]

I can agree with most of this

I would only add that all denominations have a part of the Truth. It was part of the plan. As each one (like a limb) is doing it’s part.(many members-One body- with Christ as the head)

I’m personally not apart of any, as I’m not led to be in (just) One. But if one’s heart is lead to a specific one, then it is not my place to tell them they are wrong. For God places us where we are needed for a purpose. So I cannot judge one for claiming a specific denomination.

But I can say that they are doing things (of) themselves (traditions of men/ imaginations of their brain) instead of letting the Spirit lead it. Which is where all the falsities come in.

Glad you can agree with most of what I said, thanks. I was raised Catholic and it hurt me deeply to realize it was a waste of my life and that I did not really know God after all. When I searched for Him I thought He was in a denomination, or even the one's who call themselves non denomination, which they really aren't non denominational...I thought one of these denominations must have it right. I studied different denominations and got overwhelmed because there are so many and even after studying them I still wasn't sure if it was really God's Truth or if I was just accepting what their preacher said. Well I decided that I would just get Jesus' teachings in the New Testament and do what he said and that I would be like God's child and that would be good enough for me. The thing is, Jesus saved me in powerful way after I started getting his teaching and just doing them.
I want to help others to know what Jesus revealed to me and it means that I will have to tell people they are preaching wrong to others.
I know not everyone is cut out to do that, and it is hurtful the way people treat me for it, but we are to contend for the faith and correct others.

 

[God's Truth]

Dear God's Truth,
Do you believe you left anything out?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

It sounded to me as if you were standing up for the Catholics calling their brothers 'father', but read your post again and this time to the end. lol

 

[God's Truth]

@God's Truth
Yes. All are wrong in multiple ways and have problems. Here the Catholics stand out for the many things they do and yet there's no commandments or instruction.
I've heard and read that an every growing number of Catholics believe that "pope" is an Anti-Pope" and they don't listen to him or the Vatican.

I was raised what they now call a Traditional Roman Catholic. It is what a Catholic is called who didn't agree with pope John Paul II. The Catholic popes are called infallible, and it was taught that all who went against the Catholic church were condemned. Even Catholics couldn’t go against even one teaching, because it would be like that person went against God Himself. The second Vatican came about because pope John Paul II changed what the popes before him said about having to be in the Catholic church or be condemned---that caused a rift with many Catholics. It caused a rift because the Catholics believe that what their popes say is infallible; therefore, not even another pope can change any teaching of what was taught before them. Now they had a pope doing the unthinkable. John Paul II went against what all the pope's in the past said about having to be in the Catholic church to be a Christian for ecumenical reasons.
That's the way I remember it explained anyway.

Catholic or not that should be HUGE in God's church.

 

[Luminary]

Glad you can agree with most of what I said, thanks. I was raised Catholic and it hurt me deeply to realize it was a waste of my life and that I did not really know God after all. When I searched for Him I thought He was in a denomination, or even the one's who call themselves non denomination, which they really aren't non denominational...I thought one of these denominations must have it right. I studied different denominations and got overwhelmed because there are so many and even after studying them I still wasn't sure if it was really God's Truth or if I was just accepting what their preacher said. Well I decided that I would just get Jesus' teachings in the New Testament and do what he said and that I would be like God's child and that would be good enough for me. The thing is, Jesus saved me in powerful way after I started getting his teaching and just doing them.
I want to help others to know what Jesus revealed to me and it means that I will have to tell people they are preaching wrong to others.
I know not everyone is cut out to do that, and it is hurtful the way people treat me for it, but we are to contend for the faith and correct others.

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. I can feel it! And have been through similar myself.

I would only suggest that when correction is done, that it’s not out of our ego, and based upon what the scripture is actually saying. Like the concept and principle that it’s trying to portray.

Far too often this is missed because of the word usage from its time and culture. As there are many ways to say the same thing.

I’ve been able to tell who really understands and who just quotes because of this.

 

[MedicBravo]

@Luminary Every sin isn't listed but God gave us logic and common sense to easily know ourselves.
You can't infer everything or even a minute idea without something to back it up.
Of the examples I gave, I know they are not in the Bible and yet for some "reason" someone has pulled costly priest clothing, costly "relics" of which there so many fakes floating around, and nothing to back up putting Mary on a pedestal.
Of the 11 who died for their faith they did a lot more than she did. Jesus recognized her role many times as "woman" but also as his mother.
More people aren't leaving God per say but they are leaving denominations and organized religion.

 

[God's Truth]

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. I can feel it! And have been through similar myself.

I look forward to hearing more about your experience, so nice to meet someone who can relate.

I would only suggest that when correction is done, that it’s not out of our ego, and based upon what the scripture is actually saying. Like the concept and principle that it’s trying to portray.

It still shocks me when someone doesn't see it the way I do after I explain it so carefully and give scriptures. It's not ever because of ego, only out of love.

Far too often this is missed because of the word usage from its time and culture. As there are many ways to say the same thing.

Could you give me some examples?

I’ve been able to tell who really understands and who just quotes because of this.

 

[Luminary]

@Luminary Every sin isn't listed but God gave us logic and common sense to easily know ourselves.
You can't infer everything or even a minute idea without something to back it up.
Of the examples I gave, I know they are not in the Bible and yet for some "reason" someone has pulled costly priest clothing, costly "relics" of which there so many fakes floating around, and nothing to back up putting Mary on a pedestal.
Of the 11 who died for their faith they did a lot more than she did. Jesus recognized her role many times as "woman" but also as his mother.
More people aren't leaving God per say but they are leaving denominations and organized religion.

It depends on ‘who’s’ common sense is being used. The Human or the Spirit. And who’s principle is being used. That of God, or of man.
Has nothing to do with inferring. It is revealed, and known. By the Spirit of God.

There is nothing new under the sun. They are modern day (Reformed) Western Pharisee. And a Pharisee will do what a Pharisee always does….

This was already Spoken about. Warned about. And Judged.
God has handed them over to themselves to destroy themselves. It’s only a matter of time. All of us.

 

[Luminary]

I look forward to hearing more about your experience, so nice to meet someone who can relate.

It still shocks me when someone doesn't see it the way I do after I explain it so carefully and give scriptures. It's not ever because of ego, only out of love.

Could you give me some examples?

Wellll

It all started when I was first called(to repentance).

Not sure how it happens for others, but I came to a place where I couldn’t take it anymore. It’s almost like my life flashed before me, and was so heavy that I gave up. Used, abused in every way you can be. Trapped, not able to move for many reasons. Became a manipulater. A liar. A cheater. A thief. By the time I grew up. Eventually ironed all that out, but couldn’t take the ugly of life anymore. The control of others anymore, and I broke.

“I don’t know how to do this anymore” “God (any God!) help me”…or I’m out!!!
On my knees, Razor blade in hand, within 15 min of giving my ultimatum, a knock came upon my front door; A book called experiencing God.

About 2 weeks later, a flyer came in my mailbox, for a “Revelation” Bible study. Wasn’t even my address. So I went. Later to find out it was the SDA. And only 50 flyer went out in the whole City! (Really cool History lesson!)- this is where I learned of the history of the Catholic Church- and the changing of the times…and such stuff)
About 6weeks in, they starting calling for baptism. I was certainly drawn too it, but didn’t want to find myself becoming an SDA. As I didn’t quite agree with everything. Something was holding me back.
Studied with them for a while, but my questions became overwhelming for them, and they eventually faded away (from coming over)

Then I get invited to a non-denominational church. Really nice; went a few times. Tried speaking with one of the pastors, but he shut down With all my questions. I eventually stopped going as a football player came through, gave his testimony, and it turned into throwing NFL signed memorabilia into the crowd.

Then I was invited to a Pentecostal
Church. Went a few times, but when they started speaking “in tongues”, it took everything in me, in all honesty, not to bust out laughing….they were making fools of themselves.

Then the JW came knocking on my door. But then they stop coming too… Actually, the Secretary at my daughters school was a JW. And offered to study with me. That lasted about 3weeks, and they too stopped coming.

Then I was invited to a Baptist Church. So much talk of hellfire and sinners that i couldn’t take it anymore. So I stopped going.

Then the Mormons came knocking. Studied with them for about 2months, and then they stopped coming.

In the process of all of this, I got laughed at, told I would have to go into the childrens room so my daughter wouldn’t interrupt the pastor, ridiculed for all my questions, and Shut down(conversation).

So I went straight to the Scriptures myself. Started in Matt-John for the first 2-3 years. Then went on to the letters the next 2-3 years, then on to revelation. In the process of this, I got this “thirst” for Everything Jesus Christ. If it bore his name, I was reading it. I followed it into Buddism(they have “sutras” of a visit from him), it went into Hinduism(they have temples that bear his name there), Egyptian( from the (g)nostic scriptures,- that were found with the Dead Sea scrolls said to be from the Essenes) and Islam(as he is an esteemed “prophet” within them)

In the process of this, I searched out other branches of Christianity in other parts of the World. Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Roman orthodox…

So at this point, I’m reaching out to those that call themselves by his name. To reason this out together. With his head. (But we have the mind of Christ!) Like we were asked too
…………..

Not everyone will see it like you do. Just like most won’t see it like I do. We all have our different experiences. Grew up with different “programming”. And view everything through our own “filters”. This is why we were asked to “die” to ourself. It’s like a “reboot”. Or “born again”. And to be “raised” on the righetousness of God(or his principles for living) as this allows you to understand his reasoning, this move accordingly! Or know the will of God!
(Mind of Christ!)
……………

Off the Top of my head….

The parable of “new wine skins”…

Is the same as a Zen proverb.
“Empty your cup, so it may be filled”;
(Can’t fill an already full cup!)

 

[God's Truth]

Wellll

It all started when I was first called(to repentance).

Not sure how it happens for others, but I came to a place where I couldn’t take it anymore. It’s almost like my life flashed before me, and was so heavy that I gave up. Used, abused in every way you can be. Trapped, not able to move for many reasons. Became a manipulater. A liar. A cheater. A thief. By the time I grew up. Eventually ironed all that out, but couldn’t take the ugly of life anymore. The control of others anymore, and I broke.

“I don’t know how to do this anymore” “God (any God!) help me”…or I’m out!!!
On my knees, Razor blade in hand, within 15 min of giving my ultimatum, a knock came upon my front door; A book called experiencing God.

About 2 weeks later, a flyer came in my mailbox, for a “Revelation” Bible study. Wasn’t even my address. So I went. Later to find out it was the SDA. And only 50 flyer went out in the whole City! (Really cool History lesson!)- this is where I learned of the history of the Catholic Church- and the changing of the times…and such stuff)
About 6weeks in, they starting calling for baptism. I was certainly drawn too it, but didn’t want to find myself becoming an SDA. As I didn’t quite agree with everything. Something was holding me back.
Studied with them for a while, but my questions became overwhelming for them, and they eventually faded away (from coming over)

Then I get invited to a non-denominational church. Really nice; went a few times. Tried speaking with one of the pastors, but he shut down With all my questions. I eventually stopped going as a football player came through, gave his testimony, and it turned into throwing NFL signed memorabilia into the crowd.

Then I was invited to a Pentecostal
Church. Went a few times, but when they started speaking “in tongues”, it took everything in me, in all honesty, not to bust out laughing….they were making fools of themselves.

Then the JW came knocking on my door. But then they stop coming too… Actually, the Secretary at my daughters school was a JW. And offered to study with me. That lasted about 3weeks, and they too stopped coming.

Then I was invited to a Baptist Church. So much talk of hellfire and sinners that i couldn’t take it anymore. So I stopped going.

Then the Mormons came knocking. Studied with them for about 2months, and then they stopped coming.

In the process of all of this, I got laughed at, told I would have to go into the childrens room so my daughter wouldn’t interrupt the pastor, ridiculed for all my questions, and Shut down(conversation).

So I went straight to the Scriptures myself. Started in Matt-John for the first 2-3 years. Then went on to the letters the next 2-3 years, then on to revelation. In the process of this, I got this “thirst” for Everything Jesus Christ. If it bore his name, I was reading it. I followed it into Buddism(they have “sutras” of a visit from him), it went into Hinduism(they have temples that bear his name there), Egyptian( from the (g)nostic scriptures,- that were found with the Dead Sea scrolls said to be from the Essenes) and Islam(as he is an esteemed “prophet” within them)

In the process of this, I searched out other branches of Christianity in other parts of the World. Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Roman orthodox…

So at this point, I’m reaching out to those that call themselves by his name. To reason this out together. With his head. (But we have the mind of Christ!) Like we were asked too
…………..

Not everyone will see it like you do. Just like most won’t see it like I do. We all have our different experiences. Grew up with different “programming”. And view everything through our own “filters”. This is why we were asked to “die” to ourself. It’s like a “reboot”. Or “born again”. And to be “raised” on the righetousness of God(or his principles for living) as this allows you to understand his reasoning, this move accordingly! Or know the will of God!
(Mind of Christ!)
……………

Off the Top of my head….

The parable of “new wine skins”…

Is the same as a Zen proverb.
“Empty your cup, so it may be filled”;
(Can’t fill an already full cup!)

Oh thank you, I enjoyed that so much, so funny it is so much like my experience in many ways with all the different denominations and searching for God's Truth.

As for the Buddhism, etc. that you spoke about...about four years before my mom got sick and died, she was a Catholic but accidentally got into non Christian teachings, it started with Vernon Howard, and then Scientology book Dyanetics , and then Taoism, Buddhism, Wisdom of the Idiots, etc. She was really proud of all the many books she had read and would try to teach me things she learned and she would beg me to read her books. She didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with being a Catholic and reading these books on the side.

One day she was teaching me something from one of her books and I asked her if she really believed all that? She just stared at me kind of strange and then I said because it sounds like they got it from the Bible, you might as well just believe in the Bible.

Even though I was a Catholic and told not to read the Bible without a priest or a nun to explain it, I used to sneak the family Bible in my room from the time I was 10 years old. I believed in God and knew Jesus was the only way, even though I didn't yet have understanding of the scriptures until after I was saved.
I did believe it was wrong though to go outside of the Bible.

I'm so glad to be able to discuss with you and hope that doesn't hurt your feelings that I don't have any interest in the other beliefs and wisdom people think there is in them. You really brought a lot of memories back to me about my mom. She died when I was 24 years old and it was a shock to me and in fact, the Catholic priest not getting to the house in time to give her the last rites is the night I realized the Catholic religion didn't know how to get saved and they didn't know God. That night I went in my room and I told God that I wanted His Truth and not some religion's truth. That is when I began my search for Him.

 

[Luminary]

Oh thank you, I enjoyed that so much, so funny it is so much like my experience in many ways with all the different denominations and searching for God's Truth.

As for the Buddhism, etc. that you spoke about...about four years before my mom got sick and died, she was a Catholic but accidentally got into non Christian teachings, it started with Vernon Howard, and then Scientology book Dyanetics , and then Taoism, Buddhism, Wisdom of the Idiots, etc. She was really proud of all the many books she had read and would try to teach me things she learned and she would beg me to read her books. She didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with being a Catholic and reading these books on the side.

One day she was teaching me something from one of her books and I asked her if she really believed all that? She just stared at me kind of strange and then I said because it sounds like they got it from the Bible, you might as well just believe in the Bible.

Even though I was a Catholic and told not to read the Bible without a priest or a nun to explain it, I used to sneak the family Bible in my room from the time I was 10 years old. I believed in God and knew Jesus was the only way, even though I didn't yet have understanding of the scriptures until after I was saved.
I did believe it was wrong though to go outside of the Bible.

I'm so glad to be able to discuss with you and hope that doesn't hurt your feelings that I don't have any interest in the other beliefs and wisdom people think there is in them. You really brought a lot of memories back to me about my mom. She died when I was 24 years old and it was a shock to me and in fact, the Catholic priest not getting to the house in time to give her the last rites is the night I realized the Catholic religion didn't know how to get saved and they didn't know God. That night I went in my room and I told God that I wanted His Truth and not some religion's truth. That is when I began my search for Him.

Thank you for sharing that! It is very nice to be able to speak with others that are firm in their faith, and can’t be moved by what anyone says. Ones who can be open hearted to others experiences! And no hard feelings

I believe this comes with maturity. For we are all certainly at different levels. Not only as a human, but also within His Truth! (Or Spiritually)

I’m one who respects where one is. My temper, only comes out when Scripture is used against another(using gods words to judge another, especially one of his own!!!) or one who twists it to fit their own fancy….Inferno!!!!! Especially ignoring what’s right in front of their face, and will go to another passage (or cherry pick a verse) that would seem to “over ride” or speak against what your trying to point out! Grrrrrrr…lol
So frustrating!!! And heart wrenching!!! Stomach turning!!!! Head Hurting!!!

Through all of my searching, I have been hit with so many “insights”.
Like what it meant to be “the end times”. What he TRULY did!!!!!!!!!
What “death through Adam; Life through Christ” really means. Why it had to be Jesus to bear our sins. Even seeing How not all that is said to be from him, is really from him. And the purpose for it.
Completely changes Everything.

It also allowed me to see that there really is only One Truth. That is certainly spoken in Every religion on the Planet. No matter how different it looks on the outside.
(Purpose for that also!)
Just like how different we all look on the outside. Yet on the inside, we all bleed red, and have the same spark of life within us all. Human!
And it IS the same God, as he created This entire planet. And gave a piece of himself, to each part. And gave us the “rein” to do with it as we pleased. Until Jesus…..

But, this cup is so full, that it overflows…lol….And just as Jesus said:
12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine.


And as Paul said,
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food…

I can only go so far, until we all reach maturity(In Christ) and put away childish things.

 

[Curtis]

We have put into context what Jesus is saying and not just take scripture to make it say what it doesn't. Who was Jesus talking about?

Mat 23:2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
Mat 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

Jesus was referring to the religious leader who never practiced what they taught. They loved to be called father, rabbi, teacher.
To be a father (which is equal to being an elder, or teacher) It is required you actually not only communicate the Gospel message but be an "example" of how to live it. The religious leaders of Jesus's day did neither so these are the ones you do not call father.

What did the early Church say and do?

Act 7:2 And Stephen said: “Brothers and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,

Act 22:1 “Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you.”

Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

1Co 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 

[God's Truth]

Thank you for sharing that! It is very nice to be able to speak with others that are firm in their faith, and can’t be moved by what anyone says. Ones who can be open hearted to others experiences! And no hard feelings

I believe this comes with maturity. For we are all certainly at different levels. Not only as a human, but also within His Truth! (Or Spiritually)

I’m one who respects where one is. My temper, only comes out when Scripture is used against another(using gods words to judge another, especially one of his own!!!) or one who twists it to fit their own fancy….Inferno!!!!! Especially ignoring what’s right in front of their face, and will go to another passage (or cherry pick a verse) that would seem to “over ride” or speak against what your trying to point out! Grrrrrrr…lol
So frustrating!!! And heart wrenching!!! Stomach turning!!!! Head Hurting!!!

Through all of my searching, I have been hit with so many “insights”.
Like what it meant to be “the end times”. What he TRULY did!!!!!!!!!
What “death through Adam; Life through Christ” really means. Why it had to be Jesus to bear our sins. Even seeing How not all that is said to be from him, is really from him. And the purpose for it.
Completely changes Everything.

It also allowed me to see that there really is only One Truth. That is certainly spoken in Every religion on the Planet. No matter how different it looks on the outside.
(Purpose for that also!)
Just like how different we all look on the outside. Yet on the inside, we all bleed red, and have the same spark of life within us all. Human!
And it IS the same God, as he created This entire planet. And gave a piece of himself, to each part. And gave us the “rein” to do with it as we pleased. Until Jesus…..

But, this cup is so full, that it overflows…lol….And just as Jesus said:
12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine.


And as Paul said,
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food…

I can only go so far, until we all reach maturity(In Christ) and put away childish things.

I am curious to get into debates with you and read your debates with others. I don't tell people they are not saved, I do tell them they have false doctrines and misunderstandings. That could be very hard for some people to hear and might bring out the worst in them. It can be frustrating for sure.

 

[God's Truth]

We have put into context what Jesus is saying and not just take scripture to make it say what it doesn't. Who was Jesus talking about?

Mat 23:2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
Mat 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

Jesus was referring to the religious leader who never practiced what they taught. They loved to be called father, rabbi, teacher.
To be a father (which is equal to being an elder, or teacher) It is required you actually not only communicate the Gospel message but be an "example" of how to live it. The religious leaders of Jesus's day did neither so these are the ones you do not call father.

Jesus says plainly that they are BROTHERS in Christ.

It is never right to call your brother in Christ a father.

What did the early Church say and do?

Act 7:2 And Stephen said: “Brothers and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,

Act 22:1 “Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you.”

Paul is noting that there were fathers and brothers in the crowd.

We can say people are fathers and brothers, we are not to label a brother in Christ as a father in Christ.

Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

That is about Abraham.
Abraham was not our brother in Christ.

1Co 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Paul never told anyone to call him father and there is no scripture where anyone calls him that.
We do have scriptures where Paul is called a brother.


In the scripture you gave, Paul was just pointing out that he was one of the first few.
There are no more first few except the apostles.

Notice Paul says "not many fathers"...that is more proof that the Catholics go against the teachings in the Bible, for they make tens of thousands of fathers in their denomination.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus says plainly that they are BROTHERS in Christ.

It is never right to call your brother in Christ a father.



Paul is noting that there were fathers and brothers in the crowd.

We can say people are fathers and brothers, we are not to label a brother in Christ as a father in Christ.


That is about Abraham.
Abraham was not our brother in Christ.


Paul never told anyone to call him father and there is no scripture where anyone calls him that.
We do have scriptures where Paul is called a brother.


In the scripture you gave, Paul was just pointing out that he was one of the first few.
There are no more first few except the apostles.

Notice Paul says "not many fathers"...that is more proof that the Catholics go against the teachings in the Bible, for they make tens of thousands of fathers in their denomination.

1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

The Apostle Paul considered Timothy, and Titus to his son, which would make him his father.

2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

 

[Curtis]

That is about Abraham.
Abraham was not our brother in Christ.

Where is Abraham right now? Is he in Christ?

 

[God's Truth]

1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

That does not mean anything but be respectful.

1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

The Apostle Paul considered Timothy, and Titus to his son, which would make him his father.

They were just like sons to him, they were like family.

2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Paul does not call Timothy and Titus 'father', and Timothy and Titus do not call each other 'father'.
The Catholic brothers in Christ are called 'father' and the "fathers" even call each other "father".

 

[God's Truth]

Where is Abraham right now? Is he in Christ?

Abraham was not a brother in Christ and I doubt when you see him one day you will call him father.