Rapture event - Poll

[Butch5]

And this is still compatible with what i wrote earlier.

It doesnt matter if at Jesus second coming, all the unsaved get vacuumed off the planet... Or not.

The reality is that some who pass into the 1000 years will fall away.

This is why satan has to be let loose to go entice them to commit what amounts to eternal sin. Making war on the holy city

I'm not sure where you're going here. This is a tribulation the likes of which has never been nor will ever be again. Obviously, this is the great Tribulation. Jesus makes it clear that His return is after this period. I'm not sure where the debate is.

 

[th1bill]

Thank you for yjour reply.

My understanding of the pretribs is that all born agains are vacating the planet. So where will the bible based saints come from.

We know it is written God could make prophets from the rocks, but as we see, God does not do that, never has.

So why bother warning people who will never read it.

Personally, i believe all of Revelations was written for the Christians

The Revelation of Yahshua, the Messiah is profitable to all mankind, just as is the four Gospels and all of the scriptures.

 

[KingJ]

Thank you for yjour reply.

My understanding of the pretribs is that all born agains are vacating the planet. So where will the bible based saints come from.

A vast majority of 'so called' Christians will be left behind. They will have revelations to know what they now need to do. Only one book of the bible is needed in the tribulation.

We know it is written God could make prophets from the rocks, but as we see, God does not do that, never has.

So why bother warning people who will never read it.

He wants us to read it and warn people. All my unsaved friends know about the:

1. Mark of the beast
2. Rapture
3. Antichrist

Thanks to Hollywood and American preachers, I think that all of the unsaved world knows this.

Personally, i believe all of Revelations was written for the Christians

I disagree. It was written as a warning to all mankind. God has His children on earth warning people. God knows this. It is the reason He doesn't need to 'make prophets from the rocks'. You and I should be doing this daily. As a Christian our full-time job is witnessing the truth.

Now, when someone experiences hell in the tribulation, they cannot blame God for not warning them to be ready for the rapture.

 

[KingJ]

I am sorry for being so dumb. Please, explain how and where you see venial sin in this or/and any other scripture.
And may Yehovah God bless.

No disrespect to you but I am getting tired of having to explain this all the time. I have given you and others the passages making the case for mortal and venial sins a number of times now. I really don't see the point in yet another efforted reply when many choose what they want to believe in and ignore.

I gave one such example in the very post you replied to. If you are being sincere, then please answer the following question with a Yes or No:

When Paul typed Rom 7:15 was he referring to still battling with the sin of murdering Christians?

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

 

[KingJ]

do not stop there, because with grace and faith comes proof and evidence, in the way one conducts him self !! and that is the part that people do not talk about ..Jesus himself said the way is hard and few find it,

This is exactly why OSAS vs non-OSAS discussion becomes circular.

You are raising a topic separate to salvation.

If you get married, it is expected that you would be a good spouse after you just dedicated your life till death do you part. Honest, loyal, friendly, helpful etc etc. But you will still have arguments, fights and make mistakes.

The marriage (A) and what follows (B) are separate matters for discussion. @Still Learning and I are speaking to A, the marriage event. The salvation event.

you see many people think believing and faith are just words or thoughts, but they are action, the Holy spirit will work on our hearts and change us.

Incorrect. The Holy Spirit does not work on our hearts to change us. He works on our will that can touch our heart, and we work on our flesh.

Our hearts are given to God when first saved. We are already changed.

Please meditate on Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he (A) has perfected for all time those (B) who are being sanctified.

A and B, separate matters.

we will live the word of God out in our actions, such as bridling our tongues and not bashing other believers, or making assumptions about other believers. The closer we get to God and letting his Holy spirit rule our lives, the more it will show.

Yes, we who are already saved, go from glory to glory 2 Cor 3:18.

Please try understanding what we have already as you say 'shown'.

When someone decides to get married (born again), they make a depth of intent commitment. You get no greater commitment then a marriage commitment. Life or death, 100% yours. As Jesus expects of us in Matt 16:24. As I explain here - So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!

So to conclude we are saved by Gods grace and our faith is uselessness if we have no proof to support it. I can look on someones face book page and know weather they have proof in there words.

The people that want fire insurance but do not have a changed life, are the people I hope to reach with this message. We must have a changed heart.

We must have a changed heart agreed. God gives us a new heart. We are new creations in Christ.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

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You are speaking like you are for OSAS, as long as we have the fruits of it. Is this correct? You are no longer anti-OSAS?

 

[KingJ]

Obviously, this is the great Tribulation. Jesus makes it clear that His return is after this period. I'm not sure where the debate is.

There is no debate. The issue is that many start and stop reading at a certain verse and teach a half truth.

Only verse 27 - 30 are directly related to the second coming. Other verses speak to a period prior, making the most rational interpretation of the words 'those days' equalling both a period before the great tribulation and then the actual seven-year tribulation.

Consider the below scriptures.

1. Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Impossible if the tribulation. How do you shorten seven years? 7 years = 7 years. 365 days = 365 days. 24 hours = 24 hours.

2. Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Impossible if the tribulation. We see here that Jesus has clearly moved on to a new topic. The period of Noah was never described as a great tribulation. If Jesus wanted to reference the tribulation, He would have said 'as in the days of Moses when God sent His plagues'. The worst period on earth. He is now referencing the period prior to the tribulation.

3. Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Impossible if the tribulation. The second coming Jesus describes in verse 30 will not be a surprise to any.

4. Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Impossible if the tribulation. According to Daniel, the tribulation is the last week at the end of the sixth day. Jesus makes the point of mentioning angels as angels 'know' day 1 of mankind and will know day 5993.

5. The Parable of the ten virgins - Matt 25:1-13.

Immediately after Matt 24, Jesus gives us the parable of the ten virgins. This describes a rapture event. Certainly not a second coming. Otherwise, Jesus would have needed to A. Add a lot more colour to the pressure on those with no oil in their lamps and B. Removed the part about a surprise visit from the groom.

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You cannot really debate these facts. I hope you realise that and just concede .

 

[th1bill]

No disrespect to you but I am getting tired of having to explain this all the time. I have given you and others the passages making the case for mortal and venial sins a number of times now. I really don't see the point in yet another efforted reply when many choose what they want to believe in and ignore.

I gave one such example in the very post you replied to. If you are being sincere, then please answer the following question with a Yes or No:

When Paul typed Rom 7:15 was he referring to still battling with the sin of murdering Christians?

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

No, you must add text that is not there to arrive at that conclusion.

 

[th1bill]

Just checking myself and the scriptures verify my thoughts that Paul is speaking to the matter of serving two masters in this section of Romans.

The Conflict of Serving Two Masters​

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. 17 But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me.

 

[KingJ]

No, you must add text that is not there to arrive at that conclusion.

This is called dodging. I asked for a simple Yes or No answer.

You would be fine if Paul mentioned Rom 7:15 as he was battling with the sins of rape, murder and pillaging when he wasnt preaching?

The statement 'sin is sin' is true, but it is a half truth. A wise Christian like you should know the danger of half truths.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Just checking myself and the scriptures verify my thoughts that Paul is speaking to the matter of serving two masters in this section of Romans.

The Conflict of Serving Two Masters​

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. 17 But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me.

You've done well Brother in checking yourself on this. \o/

 

[th1bill]

This is called dodging. I asked for a simple Yes or No answer.

You would be fine if Paul mentioned Rom 7:15 as he was battling with the sins of rape, murder and pillaging when he wasnt preaching?

The statement 'sin is sin' is true, but it is a half truth. A wise Christian like you should know the danger of half truths.

I gave you the simple, one-word answer and then expounded upon my reasoning. You overreacted as if you were a drunken female or a troll. And now, like an internet troll, you turn from the issue using the childish tactic of turning left to avoid addressing the issues my post presents? Shame, shame.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Alright enough. Let's move on.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[joestue]

I'm not sure where you're going here. This is a tribulation the likes of which has never been nor will ever be again. Obviously, this is the great Tribulation. Jesus makes it clear that His return is after this period. I'm not sure where the debate is.

because most of the whole book of revelation regards the collapse of Jerusalem in 70 ad.


Jesus returns again with no warning to set up the next 1000 years. the wicked who fight it will be destroyed but i think the majority won't, since they don't want to die.

since all the righteous are staying here and there is nothing physically they can do to prepare, there is no signs to wait for.. to do what exactly? leave the middle east (why would you want to live there now?) ? did a bunker like the wealthy are doing like never before?

 

[KingJ]

I gave you the simple, one-word answer and then expounded upon my reasoning. You overreacted as if you were a drunken female or a troll. And now, like an internet troll, you turn from the issue using the childish tactic of turning left to avoid addressing the issues my post presents? Shame, shame.

Ah yes, I see your 'no' in post 87. I read it as part of your sentence, must have missed the comma.

Thanks for answering the question. Glad we agree. Paul was not referring to mortal sins. Now you need to meditate on that fact.

A Christian who continues in mortal sin after being saved, is a Christian 'so called'. Paul explains this all in 1 Cor 5.

 

[Twistie]

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

┻⁠━⁠┻⁠︵⁠└⁠(⁠՞⁠▽⁠՞⁠ ⁠└⁠)

 

[twcstp]

The rapture is a lie and a false doctrine never even mentioned in the scripture in any way and it's best to stop feeding the delusion and stick to the wisdom and truth the Word is teaching us through Jesus' Holy Spirit.

 

[KingJ]

The rapture is a lie and a false doctrine never even mentioned in the scripture in any way and it's best to stop feeding the delusion and stick to the wisdom and truth the Word is teaching us through Jesus' Holy Spirit.

This is a discussion forum, not X. Here you need to post a rebuttal. Explain in point form why you disagree. Welcome to quote any of my posts.

 

[Garee]

The rapture is a lie and a false doctrine never even mentioned in the scripture in any way and it's best to stop feeding the delusion and stick to the wisdom and truth the Word is teaching us through Jesus' Holy Spirit.

The Amil sems to work the best . . .no signs were given to wonder after.

Seek the understanding of the parable the signified tongue spoken of in Revelation 1:1

The doctrine of resurrection the raising up or what some call the rapture must be defined

The vail representing the ceremonial circumcision of our bloody husband Christ.

When the father tore it from the top (70 foot high) to the bottom. The was no Jewish King of kings siting in what they call a holy, holy, holy place and God called it the abomination of desolation a pagan tradition (out of sight out of mind) Kings in Isreal.

Satan the false prophet fell he could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that God is a dying Jewish man as King of kings. The timeline in the parable below

Revelation 20:;And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years (unknown) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[th1bill]

Thanks for answering the question. Glad we agree. Paul was not referring to mortal sins. Now you need to meditate on that fact.

Now you are either adding text to my statement that is not nor shall ever be expressed as long as I live or you have had a terrible nightmare. There is no scale for graduating sin. Sin is sin and all sin is mortal sin.

 

[twcstp]

I could give you all sorts of 'rebuttals,' which surely would be engraved in my own understanding, thoughts, and introspect,

but I know what the Word says, and i will stick to what the Word says.

1 Peter 1:23​

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


As I can see it, the rapture doctrine is a stumbling block and a cause for stumbling, leading people into all sorts of fantasy that stray from what we know to be true. When you're born again, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and He indwells you, and works to bring forth fruit for the Kingdom of God through us, and through the Holy Spirit, Jesus reigns in us and through us.

As for the rapture, there is not one thing I can see from any of the speculative, 'speculative,' doctrine which edifies the Church in any way, but the opposite I see; it is a stumbling block, a cause for concern, stealing believers away from the Word.

Matthew 6:25-34
​

25&nbsp;Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26&nbsp;Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27&nbsp;Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28&nbsp;And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29&nbsp;And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30&nbsp;Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31&nbsp;Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32&nbsp;(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33&nbsp;But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34&nbsp;Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.




It is clear to me that the rapture
'speculation' goes against this scripture, and outright; once more, it is a stumbling block, a worrisome thing, a cause for needless concern; there is nothing at all for us to gain through it, and it is a waste of precious time, and a thief.