Sad Friday

[Rhema]

Looking through this, there seems to be two main ways to resolve the question.

There is a third option.

Either Jesus celebrated the passover early, or there is an historical discrepancy between the gospels.

But again, there is no evidence nor reason to think the Jews "had it wrong," and it's highly unlikely that the Messiah didn't know the correct day for Passover. This "two" different day excuse is a very recent invention of the church, though I cannot pin down an origin, as there is no evidence of this ever being an issue during the first few centuries.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Mark 14:12And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? 13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. 14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.

Obviously then, Jesus is fine on the day "when they killed the passover."

So when you read the "preparation of the Passover" in John 19:14, do read that as preparation of the pascha

Yes, in John, Jesus was dead and buried on the day of preparation of the pascha - when they killed the pascha.

Why can't you address the issue at hand?

In respect to that 1st day of the unleavened bread, they are not allowed to be defiled since having eaten the lamb​

Now that's a bald faced lie, plain and simple. They had NOT eaten the lamb. You typed "having eaten the lamb" (past tense). The scripture text says MIGHT (future tense).

(John 18:28 KJV) Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.​

φαγωσιν- might eat: Second Aorist, Active, Subjunctive

Why must you treat scripture with such disrespect, changing the tenses of verbs?

I find such a thing very dishonorable. (And disheartening.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

This is what we know, and that is the meal Jesus ate with his apostles is the Last Supper, and it was where he spoke the New Covenant.

This is what we actually know. There is no mention of any Covenant, New or otherwise in the Gospel According to John.

Please post the verse showing this to be wrong.

Kindly,
Rhema

PS: In the gospel books that do speak of the New Covenant (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) the word written down is PASCHA (Passover) NOT "supper" (δεῖπνον G1173). I would encourage you (and everyone) to be more precise in one's "Truth."

 

[GodB4Us]

Obviously then, Jesus is fine on the day "when they killed the passover."


Yes, in John, Jesus was dead and buried on the day of preparation of the pascha - when they killed the pascha.

Why can't you address the issue at hand?


Now that's a bald faced lie, plain and simple. They had NOT eaten the lamb. You typed "having eaten the lamb" (past tense). The scripture text says MIGHT (future tense).

(John 18:28 KJV) Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.​

φαγωσιν- might eat: Second Aorist, Active, Subjunctive

Why must you treat scripture with such disrespect, changing the tenses of verbs?

I find such a thing very dishonorable. (And disheartening.)

Rhema

You are still not applying the pascha as in Passover to the unleavened bread to be eaten which the 7 days of the unleavened bread is part of pascha. On Passover on the 14th, work is involved in killing the lamb and such preparation in that regards, but for the 1st day & 7th day of the 7 days of unleavened bread when they eat the unleavened bread, preparation is required to do it the day before because no one is allowed to work on the 1st & 7th day of the 7 days of unleavened bread.

 

[Rhema]

After Jesus was arrested that same night, he was crucified that day, it was the day of preparation.

Respectfully, no it wasn't. The Jewish "DAY" starts at sundown and goes to the next sundown. I think we are all agreed on this, so one must be very careful when looking at the timeline of events to note whether the action took place during the nighttime, or the daylight. John has Jesus crucified, dead, and buried during the daylight portion of the "Day of Preparation." But the "Day of Preparation" is the time when the food is prepared for the Passover meal, the house is cleaned of all leaven, and the Passover lamb is killed (and prepared) for the Passover meal (Seder) eaten at sundown, when the "Day of Preparation" ends. Go ask any Jew. (They know what they're doing - they've been doing it a long time.)

According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the "Day of Preparation" had to be over and done with in order for Jesus and his disciples to observe Seder. The preparation was finished, and the hour had come (sundown).

And then the next day following the DAY OF PREPARATION...

Indeed.

The next "day" following the DAY OF PREPARATION, was the PASCHA itself. Jesus ate the PASCHA meal (Seder) starting at sundown - on Pascha, after the day of preparation for the Pascha, which ended (at sundown). According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus was arrested in the middle of the nighttime and crucified during the daylight portion of the Day of Pascha which is... (wait for it) ... the day following the DAY OF PREPARATION. So yes, Jesus was dead and buried during the daylight hours of the "day following the DAY OF PREPARATION," which is why the chief priests and Pharisees went into Pilate to ask for a guard. Please note: since they had already eaten the Pascha, there were no worries about being unclean that they might not be able to eat (cf. John 18:28). Here... allow me:

(John 18:28 KJV) Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.​

They had not eaten the Passover (nor could Jesus as He would be dead) and they didn't want to be defiled. However, according to John, Jesus was already arrested before the Pascha could be eaten.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

work is involved in killing the lamb and such preparation in that regards,

Uh... well that is why it's called the Day of Preparation, and according to the Gospel of John, Jesus was dead and buried before sundown on the Day of Preparation, and so He couldn't have eaten the Seder with his disciples.

What's the disconnect here? A stubbornness to acknowledge that the different texts describe a different timeline? They do.

(Matthew 26:17 KJV) Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?​

So you're trying to tell me that the Passover isn't the Passover, and that Jesus didn't eat the actual Seder, but just some matzah? Why? The feast (festival) hadn't even started yet.

Perhaps I see the disconnect. You read the Catholic (okay Anglican) KJV translation "the first day of the feast," and think ON the first day, but the Greek text says this:

τη (THE) δε (NOW) πρωτη (BEFORE) των (THE) αζυμων (UNLEAVENED) ....​

LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for the root of πρωτη -

A. I. of Place, before, in front​

II. of Time, former, earlier​

It wasn't on the "first day" it was "BEFORE" to mean "earlier than".

Rhema

 

[God's Truth]

This is what we actually know. There is no mention of any Covenant, New or otherwise in the Gospel According to John.

And? You think that means Jesus didn't make a New Covenant, as was prophesied and promised by God?

Here is the old law through Moses, and the new law through Jesus:

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Please post the verse showing this to be wrong.

Kindly,
Rhema

PS: In the gospel books that do speak of the New Covenant (Matthew, Mark, and Luke)

The words New Testament are used. Testament and Covenant are the same thing.

the word written down is PASCHA (Passover) NOT "supper" (δεῖπνον G1173).

We know that it is Jesus' last supper.

I would encourage you (and everyone) to be more precise in one's "Truth."

You don't know how ridiculous that is coming from you.

 

[Rhema]

The words New Testament are used. Testament and Covenant are the same thing.

Please quote the verse from the Gospel of John that speaks about any Testament or Covenant. (There is none.)

When one mixes everything together, it all comes out like mud.

Rhema

We know that it is Jesus' last supper.

Actually, there are many Christians who object to the term LAST supper, in that first, the word "last" is not found in scripture at all (therefore you're making it up), and second, they prefer the term "Lord's Supper" in that the word "last" implies previous suppers. Just an FYI.

So then, again, please quote me a verse from Matthew, Mark, or Luke that refers to any Passover meal as a "supper." Not even John does that.

You don't know how ridiculous that is coming from you.

So where in my posts, then, is there a lack of precision? One shouldn't make the accusation if one cannot provide the proof.

Rhema

 

[God's Truth]

Respectfully, no it wasn't. The Jewish "DAY" starts at sundown and goes to the next sundown.

It was the same day.

After Jesus was arrested that same night, he was crucified that day; it was the day of preparation.
And then the next day following the DAY OF PREPARATION...

Matthew 27:62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,

THE NEXT DAY THAT FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION IS PASSOVER.


the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive,


After three days I will rise again. 64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. 65Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. 66So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

I think we are all agreed on this, so one must be very careful when looking at the timeline of events to note whether the action took place during the nighttime, or the daylight. John has Jesus crucified, dead, and buried during the daylight portion of the "Day of Preparation." But the "Day of Preparation" is the time when the food is prepared for the Passover meal, the house is cleaned of all leaven, and the Passover lamb is killed (and prepared) for the Passover meal (Seder) eaten at sundown, when the "Day of Preparation" ends. Go ask any Jew.

Jesus ate his last supper at night.


26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


AFTER THE BREAD AND WINE, THEY SUNG A HYMN AND THEN WENT OUT INTO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.

30And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

JEUS SAYS THEY WILL BE OFFENDED THIS NIGHT.

31Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. 33Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.


JESUS SAYS THAT PETER WILL DENY HIM THREE TIMES BEFORE THE THE **** CROWS. A rooster crows before the sun comes up.


34Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. 35Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Jesus Prays at Gethsemane and the Apostles couldn't stay awake, because it was night.


36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

AND WHILE JESUS WAS STILL SPEAKING---

47And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. 49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

55In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. 56But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Jesus Before the Sanhedrin

57And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 58But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; 60But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, 61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. 62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

67Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, 68Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Peter Denies Jesus

69Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 73And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. 74Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the **** crew. 75And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

(They know what they're doing - they've been doing it a long time.)

We are not to go to the Jews who reject Jesus to learn about God's Truth.

According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the "Day of Preparation" had to be over and done with in order for Jesus and his disciples to observe Seder. The preparation was finished, and the hour had come (sundown).

I gave scripture that says he was arrested and crucified on the day of preparation.

Indeed.

The next "day" following the DAY OF PREPARATION, was the PASCHA itself. Jesus ate the PASCHA meal (Seder) starting at sundown - on Pascha, after the day of preparation for the Pascha, which ended (at sundown).

That is not what the scriptures say.

Matthew 27:62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. 64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. 65Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. 66So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus was arrested in the middle of the nighttime and crucified during the daylight portion of the Day of Pascha which is... (wait for it) ... the day following the DAY OF PREPARATION.

Read it again.
Jesus died and the next day, THAT FOLLOWED is THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION.

So yes, Jesus was dead and buried during the daylight hours of the "day following the DAY OF PREPARATION," which is why the chief priests and Pharisees went into Pilate to ask for a guard.

The Death of Jesus is on the day of preparation, the day before the Passover.


45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


The ninth hour is 3 in the afternoon.

 

[God's Truth]

Please quote the verse from the Gospel of John that speaks about any Testament or Covenant. (There is none.)

Like I already explained to you, so what that John doesn't say testament or covenant?
I already addressed this.
You know you read what I told you John says the law came with Moses and, we see the new law came through Jesus.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Why are you ignoring it?

Jesus gave the new law, it is the law of the Spirit; see Romans 8:2, the perfect law James 1:25.

It is the law that gives freedom, see James 2:12.

It is the LAW that requires faith, see Romans 3:27.

It is the law of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2.

When one mixes everything together, it all comes out like mud.

You are really mixed up, and I think you know it, and you don't care. You say one thing to me and another thing to someone else about when Jesus was crucified. You know what you say is like mud.

Rhema


Actually, there are many Christians who object to the term LAST supper, in that first, the word "last" is not found in scripture at all (therefore you're making it up),

It is in the KJV. Go look for it.

and second, they prefer the term "Lord's Supper" in that the word "last" implies previous suppers. Just an FYI.

So then, again, please quote me a verse from Matthew, Mark, or Luke that refers to any Passover meal as a "supper." Not even John does that.


So where in my posts, then, is there a lack of precision? One shouldn't make the accusation if one cannot provide the proof.

Rhema

You should be more careful how you judge others, because it shows what you are and what you do. You made mud out of your words concerning this topic.

 

[God's Truth]

JESUS SAYS THAT PETER WILL DENY HIM THREE TIMES BEFORE THE **** CROWS. A rooster crows before the sun comes up.


34Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. 35Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Typo correction: A rooster crows *when the sun comes up. Peter denied Jesus while still night BEFORE the rooster crowed.

 

[GodB4Us]

Uh... well that is why it's called the Day of Preparation, and according to the Gospel of John, Jesus was dead and buried before sundown on the Day of Preparation, and so He couldn't have eaten the Seder with his disciples.

What's the disconnect here? A stubbornness to acknowledge that the different texts describe a different timeline? They do.

(Matthew 26:17 KJV) Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?​

So you're trying to tell me that the Passover isn't the Passover, and that Jesus didn't eat the actual Seder, but just some matzah? Why? The feast (festival) hadn't even started yet.

Perhaps I see the disconnect. You read the Catholic (okay Anglican) KJV translation "the first day of the feast," and think ON the first day, but the Greek text says this:

τη (THE) δε (NOW) πρωτη (BEFORE) των (THE) αζυμων (UNLEAVENED) ....​

LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for the root of πρωτη -

A. I. of Place, before, in front​

II. of Time, former, earlier​

It wasn't on the "first day" it was "BEFORE" to mean "earlier than".

Rhema

The disconnect is why the 1st and the 7th day of the following 7 days of the unleavened bread are the annual sabbaths and not the weekly sabbath but still, they are not allowed to do any work for why they have to prepare the day before.

The Day of Preparation on that Passover day the 14th is for the 1st of the following 7 days of the unleavened bread in eating the unleavened bread which is also considered as pascha or Passover.

There is also a preparation on the 14th for killing the lamb and cooking it for eating it that day, but on a sabbath day, no one is allowed to work and that include cooking the meal, and even the unleavened bread which has to be made ahead of time for those annual sabbath days the next day. That is what the day of preparation on that Passover day of the 14th is meaning for.

The mix up may also be that on the 14th day of the Passover, they eat the unleavened bread but is not counted with the following 7 days of the unleavened bread because the 14th day is the only day they eat the lamb in this "pascha" or Passover" event and that is not a sabbath day when they have to kill it & cook it that day in "preparing" but that is not the actual day of preparation which is for the coming annual sabbath days.

 

[Rhema]

It was the same day.

Again, unless we specify a precise timeline, the term "same day" doesn't mean anything. The "days" are different depending upon a Roman or Jewish (or modern) perspective.

Are you able to at least acknowledge that a "day" starts at sundown? Therefore, the "same day" would be composed of a nighttime followed by a daylight. These two together are the same day. For example, Yom R’vi’i (the Fourth Day) is our Tuesday nighttime and Wednesday daylight - that's a single day - the same day.

So yes, it was the same "day" when Jesus ate the Passover at evening, was arrested at night, and crucified the next daylight period all on the same Jewish "day," the Day of Passover.

But Jesus would not have eaten the Passover on the day of Preparation. One doesn't celebrate the 4th of July on the 3rd. Rather, Jesus ate the Passover on Passover, a "day" that started at sundown and continued through the following daylight hours until the next sundown.

I don't quite understand why this seems too difficult for you to understand. According to Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus ate the Seder meal (Passover) starting at the sundown hour on the day of Passover, was arrested during the midnight hours on Passover, and was dead and buried before the Passover day ended (at sundown). According to John, though, Jesus was dead before the Passover even began.

After Jesus was arrested that same night, he was crucified that day; it was the day of preparation.

Then Jesus couldn't have eaten the Passover, as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The Passover is eaten ON the Passover, not the day of Preparation FOR the Passover - according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Again, I don't see why this is too difficult for you to understand.

Matthew 27:62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,

THE NEXT DAY THAT FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION IS PASSOVER.


the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive,

The event of Jesus eating the Seder has nothing to do with event where the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, save the fact that BOTH were on the same day, which was, as you've loudly proclaimed - "THE NEXT DAY THAT FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION IS PASSOVER."

Again, there were no worries expressed in Matthew that the chief priests and Pharisees would become unclean when going unto Pilate, because they had already eaten the Seder meal. The account in John says otherwise. That's been the entire point of my posts. The Gospel according to John has Jesus crucified and dead on the Day of Preparation, and so Jesus could not have eaten the Passover with his disciples because the Passover hadn't been eaten.

One does not eat the Passover on the Day of Preparation for the Passover.

Jesus ate his last supper at night.

Yes, on Passover, after the Day of Preparation for the Passover had ended at sundown.

JEUS SAYS THEY WILL BE OFFENDED THIS NIGHT.

Technically, the Greek word is "scandalized," not offended. The disciples were made a scandal. (If necessary, I'll post a link to the Lexicon later.)

JESUS SAYS THAT PETER WILL DENY HIM THREE TIMES BEFORE THE THE **** CROWS. A rooster crows before the sun comes up.


34Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. 35Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Jesus Prays at Gethsemane and the Apostles couldn't stay awake, because it was night.


36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

AND WHILE JESUS WAS STILL SPEAKING---

47And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. 49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

55In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. 56But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Jesus Before the Sanhedrin

57And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 58But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; 60But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, 61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. 62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

67Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, 68Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Peter Denies Jesus

69Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 73And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. 74Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the **** crew. 75And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

ALL that you posted in the above quote is not contested. According to Mattew, Mark, and Luke, it happened on the Day of Passover (the nighttime followed by the daytime). Why you wasted all that space is puzzling.

We are not to go to the Jews who reject Jesus to learn about God's Truth.

First, that's rather antisemitic, and most certainly racist. Second, weren't the Jews given "God's Truth" first?

(Romans 1:16 KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.​

There certainly weren't any Christians around when God commanded the Jews on how to celebrate Passover. And most Christians don't have a clue about the Passover at all. Most don't even know that the day starts at sundown. So yes, one absolutely should ask Your Friendly Neighborhood Jew about the timeline of events in celebrating the Passover, and what the Day of Preparation means. It's been the same for thousands of years.

I gave scripture that says he was arrested and crucified on the day of preparation.

So did I... that's the account as given in the Gospel of John. The accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke disagree. Again, if Jesus was actually arrested and crucified on the day of preparation, then He didn't eat the Passover Seder as is recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. You seem to think there is only one account. There are FOUR, ma'am. (And one of them is not like the others.)

That is not what the scriptures say.

Matthew 27:62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive,

The scripture you posted says nothing about Jesus eating the Seder or not, or even when Jesus ate the Seder. In verse 63, Jesus is already dead because He had just died a few hours earlier.

We both agree that the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate on the "next day that followed the day of the preparation." This was the daylight portion of the day when the Seder was eaten (during the earlier evening hours), the same day that Jesus was killed. You seem to think this verse means Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation. It does not. It only says when the the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate. And they came unto Pilate during the same daylight time period in which Jesus died.

Read it again.
Jesus died and the next day, THAT FOLLOWED is THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION.

I would suggest you do the same, because you now have Jesus dying on the day before the day of Preparation. (Read what you just wrote.)

(Matthew 27:62-63 YLT) And on the morrow that is after the preparation, were gathered together the chief priests, and the Pharisees, unto Pilate, saying, 'Sir, we have remembered that that deceiver said while yet living, After three days I do rise;​

Perhaps this might explain things more clearly:

(Matthew 27:62 GRK) τη δε επαυριον ητις εστιν μετα την παρασκευην συνηχθησαν οι αρχιερεις και οι φαρισαιοι προς πιλατον​

The Death of Jesus is on the day of preparation, the day before the Passover.

Then Jesus could not have eaten the Passover. A direct contradiction to the accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Read them again.

(Matthew 26:19-21 KJV) And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.​

Please I beg you to read the entire passage:

(Mark 14:12-18 KJV) And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.​

They ate the Passover AFTER the day-when-they-killed-the-Passover had ended (at sundown).

And again, I beg you to read the entire passage here:

(Luke 22:7-15 KJV) Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:​

What we know is this. Jesus ate the Passover. Jesus ate the Passover on the Passover, in the evening (when the hour had come). The Day of Preparation had just ended (with the sun going down). That's the narrative provided in Matthew, Mark and Luke. John tells a completely different story.

The Death of Jesus is on the day of preparation, the day before the Passover.

No, the Death of Jesus was during the daylight hours of the Passover "Day," because He ate the Seder (Passover) meal during the evening hours of the Passover, AFTER the Passover had been prepared.

(Blimey)

The ninth hour is 3 in the afternoon.

Uh... yeah? So?

I can completely agree that Jesus died during the daylight hours of the Day of Passover, after having eaten the Passover the previous evening (same day).

Typo correction: A rooster crows *when the sun comes up. Peter denied Jesus while still night BEFORE the rooster crowed.

Sure... the same Jewish day on which the Passover was eaten. The Passover is the Day after the Day of Preparation for the Passover.

Perhaps someone else could help you figure out why this seems too difficult.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

so what that John doesn't say testament or covenant?

That's a contradiction of your previous post.

That's what.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

You say one thing to me and another thing to someone else about when Jesus was crucified.

Please show where, because I did not. What a horrible thing to say (without proof).

You are really mixed up, and I think you know it, and you don't care.

And that's a horrible thing to say as well (without proof).

It is in the KJV. Go look for it.

There is no verse whatsoever in the entire KJV that talks about a "Last Supper." Period.

If there is, then post it. (You cannot, because there isn't one. And you know it.)

You made mud out of your words concerning this topic.

No sane person I know thinks so. It's rather simple. The Gospel according to John places the day of Jesus crucifixion on a different day than that which is described in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

that is not a sabbath day when they have to kill it & cook it that day in "preparing" but that is not the actual day of preparation which is for the coming annual sabbath days.

Well I am used to getting the nonsense explanation that the Passover is not the Passover, but this is the first time I've been presented with the assertion that the Preparation is not the Preparation.

Thanks for playing? But your post doesn't make sense, kind sir.

Rhema

WAIT !! Can we at least agree that the Jewish day starts at sundown and continues until the next sundown?

 

[GodB4Us]

Well I am used to getting the nonsense explanation that the Passover is not the Passover, but this is the first time I've been presented with the assertion that the Preparation is not the Preparation.

Thanks for playing? But your post doesn't make sense, kind sir.

Rhema

WAIT !! Can we at least agree that the Jewish day starts at sundown and continues until the next sundown?

I think we can agree that we disagree about what the Day of Preparation is meaning for since I believe it is to avoid sinning against God by preparing the unleavened bread ahead of time to eat that "pashca" on those annual sabbath days.

 

[God's Truth]

Again, unless we specify a precise timeline, the term "same day" doesn't mean anything. The "days" are different depending upon a Roman or Jewish (or modern) perspective.

I gave you the precise timeline, and you turn around and ask me why I gave you a timeline.

Are you able to at least acknowledge that a "day" starts at sundown? Therefore, the "same day" would be composed of a nighttime followed by a daylight. These two together are the same day. For example, Yom R’vi’i (the Fourth Day) is our Tuesday nighttime and Wednesday daylight - that's a single day - the same day.

Are you kidding? I have shown you one day according the Jewish timeline for a day. I think you are deliberately speaking mud, like you accused me of doing. I think you know I gave a Jewish day timeline, but then to stir up mud you ask me if I will at least acknowledge that a day starts at sundown.
This is going to be the last post I discuss this with you. It seems it is another one of your games.

So yes, it was the same "day" when Jesus ate the Passover at evening, was arrested at night, and crucified the next daylight period all on the same Jewish "day," the Day of Passover.

I have explained to you in a previous post that it was the Lord's supper and it was before the Passover feast. In Matthew and John that, after supper Jesus ate bread, and at that time he predicted Judas' betrayal, and, in Matthew speaks the covenant of his body and blood... THEN, JUDAS LEAVES, and the other apostles think he goes to get things for the feast.

But Jesus would not have eaten the Passover on the day of Preparation. One doesn't celebrate the 4th of July on the 3rd. Rather, Jesus ate the Passover on Passover, a "day" that started at sundown and continued through the following daylight hours until the next sundown.

I don't quite understand why this seems too difficult for you to understand. According to Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus ate the Seder meal (Passover) starting at the sundown hour on the day of Passover, was arrested during the midnight hours on Passover, and was dead and buried before the Passover day ended (at sundown).

Matthew SAYS THE NEXT DAY, WHICH WOULD BE PASSOVER DAY, Matthew says ON THE PASSOVER DAY that WHEN JESUS WAS ALIVE, which tells us he is dead on the day of Passover, and did NOT die by the time THE PASSOVER DAY ENDED, as YOU SAY.

Matthew 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,

THE NEXT DAY THAT FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION IS PASSOVER.


the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive,

According to John, though, Jesus was dead before the Passover even began.

It is also what Matthew says, according to Matthew 27:62.

Then Jesus couldn't have eaten the Passover, as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The Passover is eaten ON the Passover, not the day of Preparation FOR the Passover - according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Jesus prepared for the Passover day, and that night after supper, he ate bread and wine,he spoke of the covenant of his body and blood. It is also when he predicts Judas' betrayal, and it is when Judas left and they thought he left to prepare for the feast that was still to come. The next day was Passover, and Jesus was already dead, according to Matthew.

Again, I don't see why this is too difficult for you to understand.

It is more difficult because I think you are confused and or are deliberately trying to be confusing.

The event of Jesus eating the Seder has nothing to do with event where the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, save the fact that BOTH were on the same day, which was, as you've loudly proclaimed - "THE NEXT DAY THAT FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION IS PASSOVER."

Jesus was already dead by the day of the Passover.

Technically, the Greek word is "scandalized," not offended. The disciples were made a scandal. (If necessary, I'll post a link to the Lexicon later.)

We don't need to know another language to know God's truth. The different word does not change the truth.

ALL that you posted in the above quote is not contested. According to Mattew, Mark, and Luke, it happened on the Day of Passover (the nighttime followed by the daytime). Why you wasted all that space is puzzling.

You asked for the timeline.

First, that's rather antisemitic, and most certainly racist. Second, weren't the Jews given "God's Truth" first?

(Romans 1:16 KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.​

May the Lord rebuke you. Don't sling your mud at me.

There certainly weren't any Christians around when God commanded the Jews on how to celebrate Passover. And most Christians don't have a clue about the Passover at all. Most don't even know that the day starts at sundown. So yes, one absolutely should ask Your Friendly Neighborhood Jew about the timeline of events in celebrating the Passover, and what the Day of Preparation means. It's been the same for thousands of years.

Salvation is from the Jews, not from the Jews who reject Jesus. Why would one go to the Jews who reject Jesus?

We both agree that the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate on the "next day that followed the day of the preparation." This was the daylight portion of the day when the Seder was eaten (during the earlier evening hours), the same day that Jesus was killed.

Jesus was killed a day before the Passover.

You seem to think this verse means Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation. It does not. It only says when the the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate. And they came unto Pilate during the same daylight time period in which Jesus died.

The scripture says the next day that followed the day of the preparation, which is Passover, that Jesus was already dead.

I would suggest you do the same, because you now have Jesus dying on the day before the day of Preparation. (Read what you just wrote.)

(Matthew 27:62-63 YLT) And on the morrow that is after the preparation, were gathered together the chief priests, and the Pharisees, unto Pilate, saying, 'Sir, we have remembered that that deceiver said while yet living, After three days I do rise;​

You don't see what you just said? You said I said something I didn't. The scripture says the day AFTER THE PREPARATION day. You claim that means a day before preparation day instead of day before Passover.

Perhaps this might explain things more clearly:

(Matthew 27:62 GRK) τη δε επαυριον ητις εστιν μετα την παρασκευην συνηχθησαν οι αρχιερεις και οι φαρισαιοι προς πιλατον​

Is that more of your mud game?

Then Jesus could not have eaten the Passover. A direct contradiction to the accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Read them again.

(Matthew 26:19-21 KJV) And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.​

Preparing for the passover isn't eating the passover.

Please I beg you to read the entire passage:

(Mark 14:12-18 KJV) And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.​

They made ready for the plans to eat the passover, then they sat down to eat, it doesn't mean they ate the passover just because after making the plans for it they sat down and ate.

They ate the Passover AFTER the day-when-they-killed-the-Passover had ended (at sundown).

And again, I beg you to read the entire passage here:

(Luke 22:7-15 KJV) Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:​

What we know is this.

Then came the day of unleavened bread when the passover must be killed---that day starts at sundown.

Jesus ate the Passover. Jesus ate the Passover on the Passover, in the evening (when the hour had come). The Day of Preparation had just ended (with the sun going down).

The day of preparation was just beginning at sundown.
Jesus' disciples prepared for the passover, and then ate supper and then Judas left and the apostles thought he was going out to prepare for the passover feast.

Matthew 26

The Last Supper

17Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. 21And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? 23And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. 24The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. 25Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.


Now compare with John.


John 13

Jesus Washes the Disciples' Feet

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.



So from John, we see that Jesus and his disciples ate supper, then while eating bread and wine, Jesus spoke his new covenant of his body and blood, Judas left to betray Jesus, the apostles thought he was going to BUY THINGS FOR THE FEAST.

I can completely agree that Jesus died during the daylight hours of the Day of Passover, after having eaten the Passover the previous evening (same day).

Jesus died on preparation day. Think about it more.

Sure... the same Jewish day on which the Passover was eaten. The Passover is the Day after the Day of Preparation for the Passover.

Perhaps someone else could help you figure out why this seems too difficult.

God bless,
Rhema

Too bad you couldn't be kinder while we discussed this.

 

[God's Truth]

That's a contradiction of your previous post.

That's what.

Rhema

You are not telling the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

Please show where, because I did not. What a horrible thing to say (without proof).


And that's a horrible thing to say as well (without proof).


There is no verse whatsoever in the entire KJV that talks about a "Last Supper." Period.

If there is, then post it. (You cannot, because there isn't one. And you know it.)


No sane person I know thinks so. It's rather simple. The Gospel according to John places the day of Jesus crucifixion on a different day than that which is described in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Thanks,
Rhema

You have been rude all along, and, you claim I spoke mud. Well I am not going to waddle through your mud and show you where you say one thing to me about this topic and then another thing to someone else. You even claim I made Jesus' death a day before the preparation day! You are the one who says things without proof.