Separation of Sheep and Goats

[Thiscrosshurts]

The 10 commandments must of came from Satan ? or was it the Spirit of God ? do Christians disregard the 10 as the work of Satan or do they know that the 10 will not save you and they give guidance to God's will.

Neither,it came from and through angels who don't know God any more than men.

Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.


Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."


The new testament tells us that the law was given to Moses by Angels.
Angels are prone to error or at least misunderstanding God's plan and purpose for mankind.


Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Job 15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

Really good reading here and lots of it ,,,sheep have a very strick diet from the sheapards ,for they know which feed is harmful to them or not ,they select the best food and water sources and lead the sheep to it ,Goats on the other will eat and feed on any thing found even things that kills them because they follow thier own selfish Wills and intstinct instead of doing as the sheep and seeking wisdom from the Shepard ....because of this they are singled out by the Wolfs and soon destroyed by the enemy or thier own Greed ....!..Rev

 

[Puddleglum]

Neither,it came from and through angels who don't know God any more than men.

Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.


Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."


The new testament tells us that the law was given to Moses by Angels.
Angels are prone to error or at least misunderstanding God's plan and purpose for mankind.


Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Job 15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Galations 3: 21 Is then the Law then contary to the promises of God ? By no means.
For if a Law had been given that could give life, justice would truely be from the Law.
Gal 3: 24 Therefore the Law has been our tutor unto Christ,

 

[Barny]

Hi CareGiver,

The doctrine you follow is not supported in scripture.

I refer you to my previous posts explaining how you are turning back to the law to be perfected by the flesh.

I have been trying to post an more detailed answer to your earlier post, but I guess there must be something from your earlier post that I copied and pasted that is preventing my post to be made.

Sorry, but this shorter version of my answer is all I can give for now.

 

[Puddleglum]

Galations 3: 21 Is then the Law then contary to the promises of God ? By no means.
For if a Law had been given that could give life, justice would truely be from the Law.
Gal 3: 24 Therefore the Law has been our tutor unto Christ,

And that does not elevate the 10 beond Christ at all, but shows the 10 have practical foundations and are not evil.
Show me the evil in the 10 or the sin of each one. come on show me !

Christians are not under the Law at all and Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law.
Now if Jesus said he came to abolish the Law, he would of said so. like i am abolishing the Law and everything your God gave you was a lie, and i am bring you Gods word. and that the OT is nothing to do with being a blueprint of the NT. but fact is the OT is the blueprint of the NT and is the same God.
The Jew was couruped by idolitry, but not all were, they that being true Israel never failed God ever and came to Christ. no one can seperate the true Israel from Christ, as they are his and true Christians are Israel ( the people of God ) be it not of race, but do the will of God. and do not just sit around saying they are saved regardless of what they do, because if they do not do the work in Christ they are the Goats.
Satan does not come across as evil, but they who are with him do evil by temptations of his works and they think they are doing the will of God but are misslead doing worldly works. with out the Holy Spirit guiding them first and formost in their lives.

 

[james1523]

The Law of Moses is the law of Angels, or the Law of God via Angels. These same angels were troubling the New Testament believers, telling them they had to obey Moses.
But Christians receive their law directly from God.

Gal 3:19-20
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

Ellen G. White and 7th Day Adventism.. and Mormonism etc.. all claim to have received revelation and teaching from Angels who point them back to the law of angels and Moses, rather than the indwelling Christ.

The two Laws.. Law of Moses (via Angels) and Law of Christ.. are two different laws. One is written and handed down via a mediator, but cannot give life, and instead brings condemnation and death. The other is an internal law of love and grace and gives life.

The law of Moses is contrary to grace (experience and presence of God) and truth (knowledge of God):

John 1:17 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

The Law of Moses is the law of Angels, or the Law of God via Angels. These same angels were troubling the New Testament believers, telling them they had to obey Moses.
But Christians receive their law directly from God.

An angel announced Jesus' birth, did that make it less important? Do you have any proof it was angels that said this? Or was it Jews?

 

[B-A-C]

@james1523:

The Law of Moses is the law of Angels, or the Law of God via Angels. These same angels were troubling the New Testament believers, telling them they had to obey Moses.
But Christians receive their law directly from God.

An angel announced Jesus' birth, did that make it less important? Do you have any proof it was angels that said this? Or was it Jews?
@Thiscrosshurts:

Job 4:18; Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Job 15:15; If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,

Keep in mind Eliphaz (not Job) was the one speaking in these verses.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

@james1523:


An angel announced Jesus' birth, did that make it less important? Do you have any proof it was angels that said this? Or was it Jews?
@Thiscrosshurts:


Keep in mind Eliphaz (not Job) was the one speaking in these verses.

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

That would include Eliphaz who was only incorrect as far as his application of God's word concerning the trial of Job.
That would also include Job,Noah,Abram,Moses,David and the angels who foretold Christ's birth.
All these had limited scope of the nature of love.
I would even venture to say all that came after him are also and that's why the sheep won't listen to them either.
I don't think it coincidence that Jesus was lifted up between thieves.

 

[Tommy061]

Where does repentance, heart purity, and the works of an obedient faith fit into what you wrote? So faith without works is dead also.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.(James 2-20-26)…
Today faith as described in the word of God has taken on many different forms that can easily confuse anyone truly searching for truth. Faith has been so very misrepresented by many well-meaning and not so well meaning Bible teachers and scholars that there are many false and dangerous teachings on this simple act of obedience.
As you can see from the great example set forth by Abraham on what a real saving faith is, it seems near impossible for anyone who has some discernment to not see how obedience and faith go hand in hand, together, two peas in a pod, and mesh as one fine oiled machine when used and put into action as an act of obedience to the commands of God.
I won’t go into every aspect of the above powerful verses, I just encourage you to read them apart from your conceived notions that you were born a sinner, totally depraved, and now faith to you is some forensic ideal that was already done when you said I accept Jesus!
Yes, faith is a work, a working faith through love, where you love God supremely as commanded, and obey His commands from a heart made pure through repentance, and obedience to the truth.
So as we can see Abraham obeyed God from his heart, for He loved God supremely, he did what God told Him to do, no questions asked, thus this obedience was imputed or put onto him as righteousness.
This blows the myth that Jesus did it all in advance, and that faith is just a passive notion that has no dynamics working behind it such as, purity, obedience, synergy (working together with God to produce something powerful together) righteousness, justified by works (deeds) and not faith alone.
But many who profess Christ today have a dead faith, either by sheer laziness or ignorance , or have sat under the repeat after me teachers, who boldly claim faith and obedience are not the same, where obedience was done for them through the provision Jesus somehow made for them, and now their faith equal’s the faith of the demons.
Abraham, Rahab, Jobe, Noah, Daniel, Joseph and many others God used mightily, all produced the deed or works of faith; they obeyed God from their heart, and great love and fear of His awesome power, producing a perfect upright walk with Him.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Faith is a work, we must do to please God, it’s a command not a side issue reserved only for the obedient saints in the Bible, but for all who come to Christ as commanded, by faith, with an obedient heart, that can only come through real repentance and faith proven by deeds!
So the next time you want to scream “It’s not of works” remember to be very sure you know what works the word of God is talking about, as clearly portrayed and lived out by Abraham, and many others God declared righteous by their working obedient faith!
To sum this us:
Faith is not passive; it is active, alive and ongoing!
Faith is a work, from the heart that obeys as commanded!
Faith is pleasing to the Lord, in fact He commands all His saints to walk by it, everyday!
Faith=Obedience!
Faith is imputed as righteousness to those who obey God!
Faith purifies the heart, made pure through repentance and clearing of wrong doing!
Faith can become shipwrecked by disobeying God, and following the flesh over the spirit!
There are many more strong examples of faith working through love in the word of God, many have read them and have gotten inspired by them, but the main concern is where your faith is?
In something that never happened, or a working, dynamic, obedient faith as laid out by many brave and godly men and women in the word of God!
And remember IF any of these men or women decided to disobey God, then God would have choose someone else to work with Him, as He is no respecter of persons, but His mercy and kindness is bestowed on the righteous, or the ones who are declared righteous by obeying Him through their heart, keeping His commands, and working together with Him to be counted worthy of their calling on the narrow road!
Act 15:9 And He put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith ((obedience).
Obedience matters, but it’s a free will choice God has given us, where He tests His saints to see if they are real, genuine, walking in the spirit, living a crucified life unto Him, obeying His commands each and every day, knowing that they can become disqualified IF they turn away from Him, seeking to obey their flesh and the many false doctrine’s that teach faith is already done for you in advanced, and any disobedience to God is just a speed bump, not a road block leading to spiritual death!
Tommy

 

[DHC]

Faith is imputed as righteousness to those who obey God!

Hello Tommy061.

Wondering what you mean by your statement above?

 

[Tommy061]

Hello Tommy061.

Wondering what you mean by your statement above?

Many teach the false notion that righteousness is imputed(put) onto us when we receive Jesus and say the sinners prayer and get saved, which is also a false teaching, so when I said faith is imputed onto us as righteousness, I am going by the father of faith, Abraham, who walked an obedient life to God obeying HIm from his heart, and doing the works or deeds of faith which were imputed to him as righteousness by doing the right thing.
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
Rom 4:18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
Rom 4:19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore "IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
Rom 4:24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

You cannot impute a virtue onto another person, so faith and obedience are the same not to be seperated, therefore as we obey God and His commands, our faith(obedience) is counted to us as rightrousness, as we obey from the heart, following Jesus example of purity, sincerity and love, which is the purpose of the command.
Faith is not passive, but alive and working in the heart of a true convert who has repented and is following and obeying Jesus to the end, where doing the right thing is a command, and not some forensic provision made by Jesus because we are unable or depraved in some way. If Abraham disobeyed God, then God would have choosen someone else, obedience matters, its a command, and disobedience to God and His word leads down the road to perdition!

 

[DHC]

Many teach the false notion that righteousness is imputed(put) onto us when we receive Jesus and say the sinners prayer and get saved, which is also a false teaching, so when I said faith is imputed onto us as righteousness, I am going by the father of faith, Abraham, who walked an obedient life to God obeying HIm from his heart, and doing the works or deeds of faith which were imputed to him as righteousness by doing the right thing.
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
Rom 4:18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
Rom 4:19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore "IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
Rom 4:24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

You cannot impute a virtue onto another person, so faith and obedience are the same not to be seperated, therefore as we obey God and His commands, our faith(obedience) is counted to us as rightrousness, as we obey from the heart, following Jesus example of purity, sincerity and love, which is the purpose of the command.
Faith is not passive, but alive and working in the heart of a true convert who has repented and is following and obeying Jesus to the end, where doing the right thing is a command, and not some forensic provision made by Jesus because we are unable or depraved in some way. If Abraham disobeyed God, then God would have choosen someone else, obedience matters, its a command, and disobedience to God and His word leads down the road to perdition!

Hello Tommy061.

You said;

"Many teach the false notion that righteousness is imputed(put) onto us when we receive Jesus and say the sinners prayer and get saved,
which is also a false teaching, so when I said faith is imputed onto us as righteousness, I am going by the father of faith, Abraham, who walked
an obedient life to God obeying HIm from his heart, and doing the works or deeds of faith which were imputed to him as righteousness by doing the right thing."


How does a person acquire the very righteousness of God himself?

Have a read of the following verses;

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

This clothing that is given to us is spotless, it is the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the - law for righteousness- to everyone who believes.

This is most important to understand, we do not establish or construct
a righteousness of our own. It is God's righteousness that is granted to
us in Christ, we must submit to the righteousness of God.We died in Christ,
we are clothed in Christ, we have the righteousness of Christ. Christ is the
end of "the law of righteousness".

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

There you have the refutation of your post, read it again.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,

When you believe in Jesus you are clothed with the very righteousness of Christ.
This is the spotless garment, not of our own effort, but reckoned, granted by God
Our righteousness is from God, reckoned to us the same as Abraham. It is in the
believing that righteousness is granted as (Romans 10) states.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Not our righteousness, God's righteousness on the basis of faith. Faith is a gift, so is the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 3
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the
sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

We do not have the equipment required to be saved Tommy061.
We establish the law, that all have fallen short, all are guilty.
The law brings the knowledge of sin, the ministry of death.

We are saved only through what Christ has achieved, it is not
from us. A New Covenant, signed in the pure blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[james1523]

Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."

Heb 2:2-3 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?

 

[Tommy061]

Hello Tommy061.

You said;

"Many teach the false notion that righteousness is imputed(put) onto us when we receive Jesus and say the sinners prayer and get saved,
which is also a false teaching, so when I said faith is imputed onto us as righteousness, I am going by the father of faith, Abraham, who walked
an obedient life to God obeying HIm from his heart, and doing the works or deeds of faith which were imputed to him as righteousness by doing the right thing."


How does a person acquire the very righteousness of God himself?

Have a read of the following verses;

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

This clothing that is given to us is spotless, it is the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the - law for righteousness- to everyone who believes.

This is most important to understand, we do not establish or construct
a righteousness of our own. It is God's righteousness that is granted to
us in Christ, we must submit to the righteousness of God.We died in Christ,
we are clothed in Christ, we have the righteousness of Christ. Christ is the
end of "the law of righteousness".

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

There you have the refutation of your post, read it again.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,

When you believe in Jesus you are clothed with the very righteousness of Christ.
This is the spotless garment, not of our own effort, but reckoned, granted by God
Our righteousness is from God, reckoned to us the same as Abraham. It is in the
believing that righteousness is granted as (Romans 10) states.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Not our righteousness, God's righteousness on the basis of faith. Faith is a gift, so is the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 3
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the
sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

We do not have the equipment required to be saved Tommy061.
We establish the law, that all have fallen short, all are guilty.
The law brings the knowledge of sin, the ministry of death.

We are saved only through what Christ has achieved, it is not
from us. A New Covenant, signed in the pure blood of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your reply, and you ask how does one obtain the righteousness of God himself?

1 Jn 3:7 ittle children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Gen_7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.
Psa_11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Here lies the problem with your defense, and yes I have read all those scriptures, but you refuse to let go
of your reformed errors, especially imputation, which is about 400 years old, the early church never taught imputation or substitution, so when you strip away original sin(totally pagan teaching) do your homework to see this grave error, then strip away imputation, or substitution, where the righteousness of Christ is imputed onto us, the you will be able to see your fallacies here.

I contend mankind has free will and ability, I contend Calvinism is false, especially total depravity, I contend, the only way to the cross is through repentance and faith proven by deeds, you gave me a lot of scripture but your point is mute, you prove nothing but you own false sense of truth,(through the eyes of mere men) as you did not address my point where faith is imputed onto us as righteousness, as we use our free will and ability to obey God from the heart, that has been made pure through repentance, 2 Corin 7-10-11.
So if you contend mankind in born a sinner( sin a substance not a moral choice) and if you believe in penal substitution, and imputed righteousness, then you need to dig deep, and you will clearly see these teachings are not biblical, which will lead you to see what repentance is for, and that just doing what is right before God id not being self righteous, but simply doing the right thing as commanded because God has given us the ability to choose Him, to obey Him, and remember Jesus cannot be your substitute and your example to follow at the same time!

You are neglecting the dynamic of faith, Faith is imputed as Righteousness, YES! But What is Faith..... the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, Rom1:17, in what manner? Faith working by love, Purifying the heart of sin by obedience to the truth and overcoming the World, sin, flesh and devil, that why he who DOES what is right is Righteous!

Can you Produce the passage that actually says we are CLOTHED in the Righteousness of Christ, that actually uses that word, not implies it by doctrine. Yes, Paul said he did not rely on his own Righteousness, of the law, BUT that which comes BY FAITH.... faith to faith, faithfulness, obedience to the faith! Where in that passage did he said he is Clothed in Christ's Righteousness, God imputed it to him (so yes it comes from God) but HOW? By Faith, by doing what is Right to begin with. you have it backward, like everything else, WHY does scripture say that certain people were righteous? Remember Daniel, Noah, and Job, Ezk14:20, and the parents of John the Baptist Lk1:5, BOTH said be Righteous,

let's look at some of his proof passages, Gal3:27 does NOT say we put on the righteousness of Christ, BUT Christ Himself! HOW? Rom6:4-6 in the baptism of repentance when we put the old man to death and died with Him to be risen to newness of life.

Rom10, the Jews establishing their own righteous was the hypocrisy of them having the law but NOT obeying it, Paul on the otherhand came to the righteousness of FAITH, by DOING what is right, as we said already.

Again Phil3 is expressed above. Paul clearly says where the Righteousness comes from and how it comes, again by Faith, which you are ignoring because to you there is no Synergy involved here. 2 Corin6-1.

2C2 Cor 3 Paul comparing the ministry of condemnation to the ministry of righteousness, the 'sufficiency' he is speaking about is not imputed righteousness, but the WORD itself and how it is MORE glorious in nature to bring people out of sin to a true righteous obedience to God.

You're back to the age old argument here if we can DO what is Right, we can save ourselves and wouldn't need Jesus, the same old fallacy that blinds them to the truth. you said 'we don't have the equipment to be saved' , meaning your mind, we don't have the ABILITY to Obey from our heart, repent and seek God's Mercy, until He does it for us. Your final statement is True, we are saved ONLY by what Christ did, His Blood alone forgives our sins, but you mean we are 'saved' first in our sins, Justified while still wicked, and then magically made righteous, even though we remain unrighteous.

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus didn't say that the sheep and goats would be divided according to their understanding of "imputation", "righteousness", or justification. The difference between the sheep and the goats is in acts of mercy.

Reading this passage makes me shudder.

 

[DHC]

Thanks for your reply, and you ask how does one obtain the righteousness of God himself?

1 Jn 3:7 ittle children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Gen_7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.
Psa_11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Here lies the problem with your defense, and yes I have read all those scriptures, but you refuse to let go
of your reformed errors, especially imputation, which is about 400 years old, the early church never taught imputation or substitution, so when you strip away original sin(totally pagan teaching) do your homework to see this grave error, then strip away imputation, or substitution, where the righteousness of Christ is imputed onto us, the you will be able to see your fallacies here.

I contend mankind has free will and ability, I contend Calvinism is false, especially total depravity, I contend, the only way to the cross is through repentance and faith proven by deeds, you gave me a lot of scripture but your point is mute, you prove nothing but you own false sense of truth,(through the eyes of mere men) as you did not address my point where faith is imputed onto us as righteousness, as we use our free will and ability to obey God from the heart, that has been made pure through repentance, 2 Corin 7-10-11.
So if you contend mankind in born a sinner( sin a substance not a moral choice) and if you believe in penal substitution, and imputed righteousness, then you need to dig deep, and you will clearly see these teachings are not biblical, which will lead you to see what repentance is for, and that just doing what is right before God id not being self righteous, but simply doing the right thing as commanded because God has given us the ability to choose Him, to obey Him, and remember Jesus cannot be your substitute and your example to follow at the same time!

You are neglecting the dynamic of faith, Faith is imputed as Righteousness, YES! But What is Faith..... the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, Rom1:17, in what manner? Faith working by love, Purifying the heart of sin by obedience to the truth and overcoming the World, sin, flesh and devil, that why he who DOES what is right is Righteous!

Can you Produce the passage that actually says we are CLOTHED in the Righteousness of Christ, that actually uses that word, not implies it by doctrine. Yes, Paul said he did not rely on his own Righteousness, of the law, BUT that which comes BY FAITH.... faith to faith, faithfulness, obedience to the faith! Where in that passage did he said he is Clothed in Christ's Righteousness, God imputed it to him (so yes it comes from God) but HOW? By Faith, by doing what is Right to begin with. you have it backward, like everything else, WHY does scripture say that certain people were righteous? Remember Daniel, Noah, and Job, Ezk14:20, and the parents of John the Baptist Lk1:5, BOTH said be Righteous,

let's look at some of his proof passages, Gal3:27 does NOT say we put on the righteousness of Christ, BUT Christ Himself! HOW? Rom6:4-6 in the baptism of repentance when we put the old man to death and died with Him to be risen to newness of life.

Rom10, the Jews establishing their own righteous was the hypocrisy of them having the law but NOT obeying it, Paul on the otherhand came to the righteousness of FAITH, by DOING what is right, as we said already.

Again Phil3 is expressed above. Paul clearly says where the Righteousness comes from and how it comes, again by Faith, which you are ignoring because to you there is no Synergy involved here. 2 Corin6-1.

2C2 Cor 3 Paul comparing the ministry of condemnation to the ministry of righteousness, the 'sufficiency' he is speaking about is not imputed righteousness, but the WORD itself and how it is MORE glorious in nature to bring people out of sin to a true righteous obedience to God.

You're back to the age old argument here if we can DO what is Right, we can save ourselves and wouldn't need Jesus, the same old fallacy that blinds them to the truth. you said 'we don't have the equipment to be saved' , meaning your mind, we don't have the ABILITY to Obey from our heart, repent and seek God's Mercy, until He does it for us. Your final statement is True, we are saved ONLY by what Christ did, His Blood alone forgives our sins, but you mean we are 'saved' first in our sins, Justified while still wicked, and then magically made righteous, even though we remain unrighteous.

Hello Tommy061.

Your post was extensive, hence my post is also long.
Try to avoid making to many statements in one post,
so we can avoid these long posts. Thanks.

I was rather surprised at the contents of your post.You made a number
of allegations that were indeed wide of the mark.

I do not subscribe to any theology, let alone any Reformed theology.

You then proposed that mankind has freewill?

"Freewill" is a philosophical term that does not hold any ground
in the pages of the scripture. There is a simple reason why this is
the case, please read the following;

Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the
sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of
the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

i) You were dead in your sin, not alive by any measure.
ii) The prince of the air had control over you, you had no say in this.
iii) Your flesh dictated the decisions you made, indulging both mind
and body in the various lusts.

There is no freewill under this dictatorship, how could you seek God
when your desires are otherwise? Want some more proof that you are
not capable of choosing between good and evil.

Romans 3
9...for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, there is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good, there is not even one.
13 Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving,
the poison of asps is under their lips;
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I do not support the concept of freewill, what I do support
however is what the scripture states.

Romans 3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for
there is no distinction;

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith
is credited as righteousness,

Imputed, credited, reckoned righteousness!

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those
who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life
through the One, Jesus Christ.

The gift of righteousness!!

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of
righteousness.

You are dead in Christ, your flesh died in the baptism of Jesus Christ.
Your spirit is alive because of His righteousness, His Spirit dwells in you.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he
confesses, resulting in salvation.

Believing and confession, are the corner stones of Christianity.
Righteousness is bestowed by the "belief".

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and
righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Notice this "by His doing you are", also note, "and sanctification".

Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness
and holiness of the truth.

This is the crucial argument that Paul uses, you are to put on the New Self.
Godliness is adopting the new clothing of righteousness granted to us. We do
not produce this righteousness, we confess and believe it.

Philippians 1:11
having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the
glory and praise of God.

Isaiah 61:10
I will rejoice greatly in the Lord, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me
with garments of salvation,

The garment of salvation is precisly the righteousness of Christ.

Then you made this claim;

Justified while still wicked, and then magically made righteous, even though we remain unrighteous.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of
righteousness.

If Christ is in you, then you obviously have recieved the righteousness of God
Himself. Consider yourself dead to sin and let the righteousness of Christ shine.
For you have been baptized into the death of the flesh so that you will rise.

Forget about your unrighteousness, your flesh, accept the righteousness of
Christ. Boast in the death and resurrection of Christ, not in your attempts
to reform the flesh. Your flesh is already dead, accept this reality and be
the spiritual person that you are meant to be in Christ.

Why were some people righteous in the old testament.
Because they were divinely chosen to be righteous, their
own righteousness is always filthy rags.

I am not a three point, four point, or five point Calvinist.
Nor any other type of Calvinist.

As I do not believe God chooses who will be saved as He
draws all men to Himself. God shows no favoritism in election.

I do not advocate original sin, the sin of Adam introduced
death, we cannot commit the original sin. But we did receive
the corrupt flesh by birth, also the blessings and curses of the
fallen creation. It is this flesh that must die and is dead in Christ
We do not attempt to tame the lion of the flesh, with a chair and a whip
of the law. We execute the flesh, as the flesh is already stone dead in Christ.
Live the new life, the new creation, the new spiritual man in Christ, otherwise you will die.

There may be some similarity in my posts to some old theological argument.
I can assure you that I believe in the ministry and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
This causes a vast separation from the older theologies, and with your legalistic
theology also.

 

[james1523]

Jesus didn't say that the sheep and goats would be divided according to their understanding of "imputation", "righteousness", or justification. The difference between the sheep and the goats is in acts of mercy.

Reading this passage makes me shudder.

Mercy is a general principle of course, but in context it is about those who are helping the saints during the tribulation period. Things will be so hard.. the sun will be so hot and fierce (global warming?) that even a cup of water given to a believer will be rewarded by Christ.

The sheep and goats are the nations being judged by Christ at His return. Faithful Christians were already raptured before this so the sheep and goats are nominal Christians and unbelievers.

The sheep and the goats is not a gospel story, explaining to us how to be saved.. i.e. if we think we can be saved if we give a cup of water to a Christian.. that is taken out of context. It is Christ telling us how He will judge the nations, and they are judged by their works which shows the attitude of their heart. Whoever (nominal Christian or unbeliever) gives even a cup of water to a genuine Christian during the period, will be remembered and rewarded by Christ. Christ will show mercy to them, just as they showed mercy to Him.

It is a shame that so many see Christ and salvation in one dimension only, and as a doctrine or method only, and then continue to argue for or against faith versus works for salvation as if it is a process. The Person of Christ is left out of the equation, and we forget we are dealing with a real living Person, not a method, or process or doctrine.

But the scripture reveals Christ can save whom He chooses and if He chooses to save a person because they showed mercy to Him, that is His business, we have no right to say to Him "but Jesus, you said you save people only by faith alone, how can you save this person by their good work?" and He may reply " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". Jesus saved a woman when she wiped his feet with her tears, or poured perfume on Him.. people showing acts of mercy or kindness to Him.. but according to many peoples thinking.. for salvation they would not be saved because they did a work or did not make proper confession with their mouth etc.

 

[CareGiver]

1 Jn 3:7 ittle children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Here lies the problem with your defense, and yes I have read all those scriptures, but you refuse to let go of your reformed errors, especially imputation, which is about 400 years old, the early church never taught imputation or substitution, so when you strip away original sin (totally pagan teaching) do your homework to see this grave error, then strip away imputation, or substitution, where the righteousness of Christ is imputed onto us, the you will be able to see your fallacies here.

I contend mankind has free will and ability. I contend Calvinism is false, especially total depravity. I contend, the only way to the cross is through repentance and faith proven by deeds. You gave me a lot of scripture but your point is mute. You prove nothing but you own false sense of truth (through the eyes of mere men) as you did not address my point where faith is imputed unto us as righteousness, as we use our free will and ability to obey God from the heart, that has been made pure through repentance, 2 Corinthians 7-10-11.

So if you contend mankind in born a sinner (sin a substance not a moral choice), and if you believe in penal substitution and imputed righteousness, then you need to dig deep and you will clearly see these teachings are not biblical, which will lead you to see what repentance is for, and that just doing what is right before God is not being self righteous, but simply doing the right thing as commanded because God has given us the ability to choose Him, to obey Him. And remember Jesus cannot be your substitute and your example to follow at the same time!

You are neglecting the dynamic of faith. Faith is imputed as Righteousness, YES! But What is Faith.... the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, Romans 1:17, in what manner? Faith working by love, Purifying the heart of sin by obedience to the truth and overcoming the World, sin, flesh and devil. That is why he who DOES what is right is Righteous!

Can you Produce the passage that actually says we are CLOTHED in the Righteousness of Christ, that actually uses that word, not implies it by doctrine. Yes, Paul said he did not rely on his own Righteousness, of the law, BUT that which comes BY FAITH.... faith to faith, faithfulness, obedience to the faith! Where in that passage? Did he say he is clothed in Christ's Righteousness? God imputed it to him (so yes it comes from God) but HOW? By Faith, by doing what is Right to begin with. You have it backward, like everything else. WHY does scripture say that certain people were righteous? Remember Daniel, Noah, and Job, Ezk14:20, and the parents of John the Baptist Luke 1:5, BOTH said be Righteous,

Let's look at some of his proof passages. Galatians 3:27 does NOT say we put on the righteousness of Christ, BUT Christ Himself! HOW? Romans 6:4-6 in the baptism of repentance when we put the old man to death and died with Him to be risen to newness of life.

Romans 10, the Jews establishing their own righteous was the hypocrisy of them having the law but NOT obeying it, Paul on the otherhand came to the righteousness of FAITH, by DOING what is right, as we said already.

Again Phil3 is expressed above. Paul clearly says where the Righteousness comes from and how it comes, again by Faith, which you are ignoring because to you there is no Synergy involved here. 2 Corin6-1.

2C2 Cor 3 Paul comparing the ministry of condemnation to the ministry of righteousness, the 'sufficiency' he is speaking about is not imputed righteousness, but the WORD itself and how it is MORE glorious in nature to bring people out of sin to a true righteous obedience to God.

You're back to the age old argument here if we can DO what is Right, we can save ourselves and wouldn't need Jesus, the same old fallacy that blinds them to the truth. you said 'we don't have the equipment to be saved' , meaning your mind, we don't have the ABILITY to Obey from our heart, repent and seek God's Mercy, until He does it for us. Your final statement is True, we are saved ONLY by what Christ did, His Blood alone forgives our sins, but you mean we are 'saved' first in our sins, Justified while still wicked, and then magically made righteous, even though we remain unrighteous.

We would like to make some comments that we believe will help to clarify this discussion.
How are we made righteous? / When does a believer become righteous?

I currently understand that:

Those who believe in the name of Jesus Christ are made righteous when they are saved by being made alive (quickened) together with the Spirit of Christ.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1).
Jesus Christ was/is righteous by GOD the righteous Father (WHO IS RIGHTEOUSNESS) being in Jesus Christ because Jesus was born of GOD.

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me (John 17:20-21). O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me (John 17:25). God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19a).

Those who believe in the name of Jesus Christ are saved and made righteous by being made alive (quickened) together with the Spirit of Christ (born of GOD to be a child of GOD) when forgiven of all trespasses by repenting and confessing their sins. Children of GOD are righteous by the Spirit of GOD in Christ being the life within us.

Believers are initially forgiven of past sins by repenting and trusting in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. We show our faith by obedience to Jesus Christ in being baptized with water in the name of Jesus Christ to have our sins forgiven. When a believer is born of GOD to be a child of GOD is up to when GOD forgives the believer of all trespasses, based upon the attitude of their heart and their repentance.

The New Testament is easily misunderstood because we can see three scenarios of believers being saved.
1) We have believers who were holy by having Christ in them as a descendant of Jacob (<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region>) who previously sought righteousness by following the Mosaic Law who converted to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. This is seen in the gospel to the “Circumcised” by the Apostle Peter. Those who were living a righteous lifestyle by following the Mosaic Law were saved by being baptized with water in the name of Jesus Christ.

2) We have “Gentiles” without Christ who were saved by being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into Jesus Christ and His death and raised up together. This is the gospel to the “uncircumcised Gentiles” by the Apostle Paul. Romans 6:3-7 shows how “Gentile” believers were justified and saved by being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into His death. This passage has nothing to do with being baptized with water in the name of Jesus Christ. To explain this clearly is a whole discussion in itself.

3) We also have children that were born holy after being conceived by either parent having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them. If they placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior before becoming entangled with the world and sin, they were sealed as a child of GOD and saved the moment they believed.

Those who were “lost” in the ways of the world and sin (as a prodigal) were not saved as a child of GOD until they were reconciled to GOD by believing in the name of Jesus Christ and overcoming the world (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life) by repenting and confessing the sin in their life. We see these in 1 John by the writing of the Apostle John, perhaps 50 years after the church began.

Today when a believer places their faith in the name of Jesus Christ to be forigven of sins, they are not saved and sealed to be a child of GOD with their name secured in the book of life until they overcome the world (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - 1 John 2:16-17, Revelation 21:7) by repenting and confessing their sins. The good we do out of love as we walk with the Spirit does not save us, but indicates our faith and desire to live a righteous lifestyle of obedience to please GOD our Father and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ to become a son of GOD and heir of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD.

 

[DutchChristian]

Righteousness comes by Faith

Look at Hebrews 11 (hall of faith) the whole chapter, they are all mentioned righteous why?

Because they believed and trusted in GOD, they all had faith in GOD!

Let us look at verses 6 and 7:

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

It also implies action upon faith, trusting in GOD by BELIEF obedience and trust and not by unbelief!

Galatians 3:
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

you must believe God!

And let us not forget:

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And please know that mr. Tommy061 is a supporter of Pelagius and Pelagianism i strongly advice not to read any of his posts as it is partly truth and partly mixed with error, and therefore it is all worthless! because it is mixed with filthy dung as we are not little gods (we cannot become righteous of our own selves by just only repenting, making our own effort before we can be accepted by Jesus Christ) and we are not supposedly born into perfection and without sin. Those are some lies of Pelagianism! We are born into a fallen world. And we are saved by grace through FAITH, yes by believing and trusting GOD! FAITH! And If Tommy's covertly hidden Pelagian words confuse you, you might ask yourself who is working that...

as God is not the author of confusion.

Stay away from the posts of Tommy061, and rather read them not until he repents and becomes sound in doctrine is my strong advice and warning! They are poisonous confusing words deflecting you away from the whole Truth of Gods Word.

And @Tommy061 In The Name of The Lord Jesus Christ i now put you on notice: take head how you hear! and repent of believing another gospel: pelagianism! which is not the real Gospel!, i have already warned you many times (including PM) and now i put you on notice here publically: you need to repent of following after Pelagianism!

REPENT YE

And Now onwards:

But rather:

Get into the Word of GOD and pray and seek His Face!

Jesus Christ is Lord!

and know that pelagius / pelagian - ism is of the devil! and so is calvinism johncalvin - ism is basically TULIP system they are both wrong! Have nothing to do with: -ISMS

just go by The Bible! Get a good KJV and read and pray!

Just believe what is written!

PS if you are still confused: just read chapter 11 of Hebrews prayerfully you will see that they were all mentioned righteous by their Faith, trust, action, belief / Faith in and towards GOD because by Gods Grace they trusted upon God by Faith and by His Grace they followed GOD!

Do not follow after dead men: calvin and pelagius BUT rather follow after the Living Word of GOD: The Lord JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH!

TAKE HEED to yourselves and know that Pelagianism / Pelagius's words and doctrine is not and again i say: is NOT The Gospel of The Lord Jesus!