Separation of Sheep and Goats

[B-A-C]

Faith is given by God to each in the same measure,I know some may not agree!

Amen!!!

This is not talking about our love for each other!But rather God's personal love for each of us!! personal!For faith!! workth through LOVE!( gal 5:6) And when we do that fellows saints!!Then we know just how much we truly do believe! For faith without love makes a great sound,but has no result!( 1 cor 13:1) Felt led to say this to us for some reason.May this bless you all and remind us all of what believing is, and does!( james 1:22)amen!! psalm 27:13

Spot on!
1 Cor 13:2; If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

In fact, which is is greater? Faith or love?

1 Cor 13:13; But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Gal 5:6; For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

It interesting that it doesn't say love working through faith.

Eph 3:16; that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
Eph 3:17; so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18; may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
Eph 3:19; and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Christ can dwell in our hearts through faith, why? So that can know the love of Christ.

1 Tim 1:5; But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Why does he put love before faith here? Could it be because the greatest of these is love?

Jas 2:5; Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

 

[Brighthouse]

It is intersting that it doesen't say love worth through faith!! EXCELLENT!!!! POINT!! Brother Bac!! For only the little foxes spoil the vine!! Song of Solomon 2:15 For those without love indeed spoil the vine! Nothing should ever spoil our relationship with our Jesus!! amen!Thanks bro!!

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello James.

The dismantling of the temple which Jesus spoke about is confused in Matthew.
It is very clearly portrayed in Luke, which this post should illustrate.

Matthew 24
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately,
saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

So when will the temple be destroyed, Jesus tells the apostles when this will
happen.

Luke 21
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

(This desolation of Jerusalem happened in AD 70.)

21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

( This old covenant that had the temple at its heart was finally abolished.)

23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Once Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed, the era of the Gentiles begins.
Also, for us the confirmation of the New Covenant established by God through
Jesus Christ.

The nation of Israel as the chosen nation of God had ended. This was not
an end time event as the Gospel of Matthew portrays. But simply the changing
of the guard.

The nation of Israel as the chosen nation of God has ended ? gentiles begins ?
Israel never ends at all, juda ended. but never Israel as it moved forward becoming Christianity through Jesus Christ who is the King of Israel. race does not come into it at all.

 

[DHC]

The nation of Israel as the chosen nation of God has ended ? gentiles begins ?
Israel never ends at all, juda ended. but never Israel as it moved forward becoming Christianity through Jesus Christ who is the King of Israel. race does not come into it at all.

Hello Puddlegum.

Nice to hear from you.

Oh puddlegum, "race" is everything in the pages of the scripture.

I will paraphrase some passage from the Gospel of Matthew to
highlight the primary ministry of Jesus.

Matthew 15
24 But He answered and said, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

( The house of Israel are the sheep who are the natural descendants of Abraham.)

25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, Lord, help me!

( The woman was a Canaanite from Tyre and Sidon, a Gentile!)

26 And He answered and said, It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.

(The children are the chosen race, the natural descendants of Abraham. The dogs are the filthy,
Gentile sinners, the Canaanite woman was a dog, and she knew this was true.)

27 But she said, Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

( Yes, Lord, but even the dogs or gentiles feed on the crumbs from God's table.)

28 Then Jesus said to her, O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish. And her daughter was healed at once.

( Jesus granted the dog her wish, only Paul received this stunning revelation
later. That the Gentiles were also heirs of the kingdom of God.)

Jesus was the "King of the Jews" firstly.

So puddlegum, race is all in the scriptures, know your place.

 

[james1523]

Hello Puddlegum.

Nice to hear from you.

Oh puddlegum, "race" is everything in the pages of the scripture.

I will paraphrase some passage from the Gospel of Matthew to
highlight the primary ministry of Jesus.

Matthew 15
24 But He answered and said, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

( The house of Israel are the sheep who are the natural descendants of Abraham.)

25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, Lord, help me!

( The woman was a Canaanite from Tyre and Sidon, a Gentile!)

26 And He answered and said, It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.

(The children are the chosen race, the natural descendants of Abraham. The dogs are the filthy,
Gentile sinners, the Canaanite woman was a dog, and she knew this was true.)

27 But she said, Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

( Yes, Lord, but even the dogs or gentiles feed on the crumbs from God's table.)

28 Then Jesus said to her, O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish. And her daughter was healed at once.

( Jesus granted the dog her wish, only Paul received this stunning revelation
later. That the Gentiles were also heirs of the kingdom of God.)

Jesus was the "King of the Jews" firstly.

So puddlegum, race is all in the scriptures, know your place.

Not quite. "King of the Jews" was the Sanhedrin's accusation against Him, so that they could get him killed. This led to his crucifixion, you wouldn't want to take sides with those who crucified Him would you? When Jesus came, He came not as a "king of the Jews" (a false accusation), but as the king of kings of a kingdom not of this Earth, and not only to those of a certain race but also those who had adopted the faith of Abraham, and identified themselves as Israelites, having fulfilled the requirements. He never said He was the king of the Jews, or king of any race or earthly kingdom. He did say however that He was the "light of the world", and the "Son of Man", showing that He came not only for the Jews but for all people.

Strictly speaking Jesus came to the Israelites (Matt 15:24) not just the Jews (ie. those of the Jewish faith). The biblical meaning of 'race' is not the same as the modern scientific meaning. The biblical definition of race is whichever person you were descended from generationally (Abraham, Moab etc), that is your race. In the modern scientific sense, it is your genetics, physical traits, your skin color, hair color etc. This is not a biblical concept. In this sense there is no such thing as a "Jewish race", the only race is the Israelite race, descended from Abraham. This mistaken view that Jews are a race is what contributed to Hitler wanting to exterminate this race. But actually many Germans who were as genetically 'pure' as Hitler were put to death simply for having a Jewish surname. Assigning a particular genetic code or appearance to a Jew is very much in line with evolutionary scientific thinking and not the bible. It has largely been the white man fueled by scientific evolutionary thought over the past hundred and more years, that has fueled this idea of race according to appearance and genetics rather than geographical location, culture and religion.

The question of race and Judaism is an interesting one, given that any foreigner, of a different race, could join to God's people (Isaiah 56:3), and the situation today is that most Jews are not related genetically to Abraham.. and those people groups that are.. are predominantly Muslim by religion. So the question of being Jewish, is not just to those who are of a certain race or bloodline from Abraham, but also those who have adopted the religion. Basically today there are Muslims who are more closely related to the biblical Israelites via the scattering throughout the Babylonian, Persian etc kingdoms.. than the ones who live in Jerusalem today who are descended from European Jews fleeing pre, mid or post-war Germany.

Regarding the Canaanite woman.. the interesting thing is that Jesus was driven to a Gentile region due to persecution by the Jews. This is highly symbolic and a prophetic situation that shows that salvation would come to the gentiles, that due to their unbelief.. the Gentiles would also be given the opportunity to be saved. Jesus called the woman a dog.. but then the woman called Jesus a crumb, I am not sure what is worse to be called a dog or a crumb. But anyway Jesus was satisfied that the woman had enough faith to be saved.

 

[DHC]

Not quite. "King of the Jews" was the Sanhedrin's accusation against Him, so that they could get him killed. This led to his crucifixion, you wouldn't want to take sides with those who crucified Him would you? When Jesus came, He came not as a "king of the Jews" (a false accusation), but as the king of kings of a kingdom not of this Earth, and not only to those of a certain race but also those who had adopted the faith of Abraham, and identified themselves as Israelites, having fulfilled the requirements. He never said He was the king of the Jews, or king of any race or earthly kingdom. He did say however that He was the "light of the world", and the "Son of Man", showing that He came not only for the Jews but for all people.

Strictly speaking Jesus came to the Israelites (Matt 15:24) not just the Jews (ie. those of the Jewish faith). The biblical meaning of 'race' is not the same as the modern scientific meaning. The biblical definition of race is whichever person you were descended from generationally (Abraham, Moab etc), that is your race. In the modern scientific sense, it is your genetics, physical traits, your skin color, hair color etc. This is not a biblical concept. In this sense there is no such thing as a "Jewish race", the only race is the Israelite race, descended from Abraham. This mistaken view that Jews are a race is what contributed to Hitler wanting to exterminate this race. But actually many Germans who were as genetically 'pure' as Hitler were put to death simply for having a Jewish surname. Assigning a particular genetic code or appearance to a Jew is very much in line with evolutionary scientific thinking and not the bible. It has largely been the white man fueled by scientific evolutionary thought over the past hundred and more years, that has fueled this idea of race according to appearance and genetics rather than geographical location, culture and religion.

The question of race and Judaism is an interesting one, given that any foreigner, of a different race, could join to God's people (Isaiah 56:3), and the situation today is that most Jews are not related genetically to Abraham.. and those people groups that are.. are predominantly Muslim by religion. So the question of being Jewish, is not just to those who are of a certain race or bloodline from Abraham, but also those who have adopted the religion. Basically today there are Muslims who are more closely related to the biblical Israelites via the scattering throughout the Babylonian, Persian etc kingdoms.. than the ones who live in Jerusalem today who are descended from European Jews fleeing pre, mid or post-war Germany.

Regarding the Canaanite woman.. the interesting thing is that Jesus was driven to a Gentile region due to persecution by the Jews. This is highly symbolic and a prophetic situation that shows that salvation would come to the gentiles, that due to their unbelief.. the Gentiles would also be given the opportunity to be saved. Jesus called the woman a dog.. but then the woman called Jesus a crumb, I am not sure what is worse to be called a dog or a crumb. But anyway Jesus was satisfied that the woman had enough faith to be saved.

Hello James.

You said;

"Not quite. "King of the Jews" was the Sanhedrin's accusation against Him, so that they could get him killed."

I will correct this brief and erroneous reply.

The wise men from the east referred to Jesus as "King of the Jews".

Matthew 2
1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,
2 Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?

Also, the angel that appeared to Mary specified that Jesus would sit on the throne of David and reign, His Kingdom is eternal.

Luke 1:30-33
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Then James, you contradicted the scripture with the following line;

"He never said He was the king of the Jews, or king of any race or earthly kingdom."

Even Jesus Himself confirmed to Pilate that He was a King, the true King of the Jews.

Matthew 27:11
Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him,
saying, Are You the King of the Jews? And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say".


Even the prophet Zechariah correctly identifies this Royalty.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Jesus was most certainly the "King of the Jews".

Finally James, the rest of your post was a scrambled mess.

You tried to emphasize that modern Jews have mixed heritage?

Not really applicable to the original question.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

You said;

"Not quite. "King of the Jews" was the Sanhedrin's accusation against Him, so that they could get him killed."

I will correct this brief and erroneous reply.

The wise men from the east referred to Jesus as "King of the Jews".

Matthew 2
1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,
2 Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?

Also, the angel that appeared to Mary specified that Jesus would sit on the throne of David and reign, His Kingdom is eternal.

Luke 1:30-33
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Then James, you contradicted the scripture with the following line;

"He never said He was the king of the Jews, or king of any race or earthly kingdom."

Even Jesus Himself confirmed to Pilate that He was a King, the true King of the Jews.

Matthew 27:11
Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him,
saying, Are You the King of the Jews? And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say".


Even the prophet Zechariah correctly identifies this Royalty.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Jesus was most certainly the "King of the Jews".

Finally James, the rest of your post was a scrambled mess.

You tried to emphasize that modern Jews have mixed heritage?

Not really applicable to the original question.

Re: Matt 27:11,
Jesus admitted he was a king, yet in the spiritual sense not the earthly sense.
People's New Testament commentary explains this nicely "thou sayest. Jesus was King, not of the Jews only, but men, and he admits the charge. He was King, however, in a spiritual sense, as he explained to Pilate (Joh 18:36)."

In John 18:36-37 Jesus explains He is a king, but he does not say He is king of Jews, simply that He is a king of a kingdom not of this world.

He was accused on the basis of being an earthly king "king of the Jews" to overthrow the Emperor, he responded as the king of kings, to say that he was indeed a king , but not only of Jews but of all men.

If you believe Jesus said he was the king *only* of the Jews, and that of an earthly kingdom, and have accepted the accusation labelled against him, then you are very wrong and have contradicted the majority of biblical revelation regarding Jesus's status as king of kings and king over all men , and that of a spiritual kingdom not of an Earthly one.

In order to take your incorrect position further, if you believe Jesus was only "King of the Jews", then He also came and died as only the king of the Jews and His death was not sufficient for all men. But Jesus came as the Son of Man and it is on this basis that He died for all men and for all races, and your position that Jesus apparently died for a racial cause is untenable.

Pharisaism and Judaism were one and the same in the time of Jesus, He was not a Pharisee and therefore not a "Jew". King of Jews was an accusation against Him , a label given to Him by men who assumed He would set up an earthly kingdom. The Magi were not clear about it and neither were the Jews/Pharisees or Gentiles. They had not received the spiritual revelation that would follow. If you believe Jesus came as an earthly king of the Jews you are taking the words of Jesus's accusers and crucifiers over the words of Christ Himself who came as the Son of Man and of a kingdom not of this Earth.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
And this verse and verse 37 is the basis of my statement ""He never said He was the king of the Jews, or king of any race or earthly kingdom."

Hopefully to make it clearer I will summarize:
Jews/Pharisees/Gentiles called Jesus "king of the Jews" or "king of Israel", meaning an Earthly king who would or might overthrow the Roman Empire. And some tried to make him such a king by force. It was this accusation against him that contributed to his crucifixion, and was a false charge laid against him by his opponents.

Christ Himself on the other hand, portrayed himself as the Son of Man, and as a king not of an earthly kingdom restricted to the borders of Judea or Israel or any race, but as the king of the heavens, ruling over all nations and all men.

Hopefully you can see the difference and in this sense.. Puddlegum's statement that "race does not come into it" is in perfect agreement with the spiritual revelation of scripture.

and your view that "Jesus was the "King of the Jews" firstly.", is completely mistaken. He was firstly, king of kings over all men, of a heavenly spiritual kingdom, and only secondly, he was "king of the Israelites" by virtue of the fact that He rules over all men.

And even if we believe that Jesus was "King of the Jews", it is still not about race because Judaism, was never a race. Judaism is a religion not a race, and there is no racial-only requirement to be considered a Jew. Never was, never has been.

 

[DHC]

If you believe Jesus said he was the king *only* of the Jews, and that of an earthly kingdom, and have accepted the accusation labelled against him, then you are very wrong and have contradicted the majority of biblical revelation regarding Jesus's status as king of kings and king over all men , and that of a spiritual kingdom not of an Earthly one.

Hello James.

I never said that Jesus was only the "king of the Jews".

You also seem to think that Jesus was only accused of being an earthly "king of the Jews"?

Jesus was accused of three charges James.

1) Subverting the nation of Israel.
2) Forbidding payment of taxes to Caesar.
3) Claiming to be the messiah, the true king.

What you wrote is not correct James, check the accusations against Jesus.

In order to take your incorrect position further, if you believe Jesus was only "King of the Jews", then He also came and died as only the king of the Jews and His death was not sufficient for all men. But Jesus came as the Son of Man and it is on this basis that He died for all men and for all races, and your position that Jesus apparently died for a racial cause is untenable.

Jesus was born a Jew, raised under the law, a true Jew.
Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, and numerous types riddled through the O.T.

The Christ, is the royal "king of the Jews" who sits on the throne of David as prophecy dictates.
Also, the fulfillment of the type, of Melckizadek, king of Salem.
There was and is only one king of Israel, Jesus the messiah.
The true king of Israel was God Himself.

Gentiles were grafted into this reconciliation process granted by God.

Pharisaism and Judaism were one and the same in the time of Jesus, He was not a Pharisee and therefore not a "Jew". King of Jews was an accusation against Him , a label given to Him by men who assumed He would set up an earthly kingdom. The Magi were not clear about it and neither were the Jews/Pharisees or Gentiles. They had not received the spiritual revelation that would follow. If you believe Jesus came as an earthly king of the Jews you are taking the words of Jesus's accusers and crucifiers over the words of Christ Himself who came as the Son of Man and of a kingdom not of this Earth.

This aspect of your post seems confused James.

 

[james1523]

I never said that Jesus was only the "king of the Jews".

You also seem to think that Jesus was only accused of being an earthly "king of the Jews"?

Jesus was accused of three charges James.

1) Subverting the nation of Israel.
2) Forbidding payment of taxes to Caesar.
3) Claiming to be the messiah, the true king.

What you wrote is not correct James, check the accusations against Jesus.

My apologies, you said firstly, not only, and I intend only to discuss "king of the Jews".

Firstly king of the Jews is more correctly "king of the Judeans", Jew can mean a geographical region of Judea or the religion. That Jesus was not strictly a Jew according to the religion is easy to prove. Jesus was not of the Jewish religion since He was not of the sect of the Pharisees or Saduccees, he even called them serpents and children of the devil and blamed them for murdering Cain and all the prophets. He did not observe their customs and found himself in dispute with them over many matters. To say that Jesus was a"king of the Jews (religion)" is to say He was in charge of Phariseeism and Saduceeism which he most clearly was not.

What is a "true Jew"? Paul answers this for us and says that a true Jew is one inwardly not outwardly (Rom 2:29). Jesus was the firstborn of the new creation (Col 1:15), and in this sense He is not "King of the Jews (religion)", and had nothing to do with that false serpentine religious system that crucified Him.

Jesus Himself never said he was the King of the Jews. Others said that about Him, and they also thought that he would overthrow the human government. This led to Herod killing the babies and led to Jesus being crucified.

But when Pilat asked Jesus directly if he was the king of the Jews, Jesus explained that his kingdom was not of this Earth, so in effect he denied being the king of the Jews (in an earthly sense).

The title "king of the Jews" given to Christ, was never as Christ knew it and believed it, it was always in the incorrect earthly sense. So when we say that Jesus is "king of the Jews" we are in effect saying that He is the earthly ruler and king of the area of Judea, along with the wise men, and his accusers and mockers who also called him that.

You seem confused by the issue of grafting. It is not only Gentiles grafted in, but also the Jew.
The reconciliation process for the Jew is the same as for the Gentile.
Both Jew and Gentile were outside Christ (Jews were broken off, Rom 11:20), and both need to be grafted into Christ the vine:

Rom 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

In this respect it is never a matter of race (Col 3:11, Gal 3:28):
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Rom 10:12 also confirms that Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.. not the King of the Jews. He is King of the Jews only in the sense that He is King of Kings, and Lord of all.

But is there advantages to being a Jew? yes some advantages (Rom 3:1) but with regards to salvation, are Jews any better than Gentiles?..there is NO advantage at all (Rom 3:9).

 

[Puddleglum]

Not quite. "King of the Jews" was the Sanhedrin's accusation against Him, so that they could get him killed. This led to his crucifixion, you wouldn't want to take sides with those who crucified Him would you? When Jesus came, He came not as a "king of the Jews" (a false accusation), but as the king of kings of a kingdom not of this Earth, and not only to those of a certain race but also those who had adopted the faith of Abraham, and identified themselves as Israelites, having fulfilled the requirements. He never said He was the king of the Jews, or king of any race or earthly kingdom. He did say however that He was the "light of the world", and the "Son of Man", showing that He came not only for the Jews but for all people.

Strictly speaking Jesus came to the Israelites (Matt 15:24) not just the Jews (ie. those of the Jewish faith). The biblical meaning of 'race' is not the same as the modern scientific meaning. The biblical definition of race is whichever person you were descended from generationally (Abraham, Moab etc), that is your race. In the modern scientific sense, it is your genetics, physical traits, your skin color, hair color etc. This is not a biblical concept. In this sense there is no such thing as a "Jewish race", the only race is the Israelite race, descended from Abraham. This mistaken view that Jews are a race is what contributed to Hitler wanting to exterminate this race. But actually many Germans who were as genetically 'pure' as Hitler were put to death simply for having a Jewish surname. Assigning a particular genetic code or appearance to a Jew is very much in line with evolutionary scientific thinking and not the bible. It has largely been the white man fueled by scientific evolutionary thought over the past hundred and more years, that has fueled this idea of race according to appearance and genetics rather than geographical location, culture and religion.

The question of race and Judaism is an interesting one, given that any foreigner, of a different race, could join to God's people (Isaiah 56:3), and the situation today is that most Jews are not related genetically to Abraham.. and those people groups that are.. are predominantly Muslim by religion. So the question of being Jewish, is not just to those who are of a certain race or bloodline from Abraham, but also those who have adopted the religion. Basically today there are Muslims who are more closely related to the biblical Israelites via the scattering throughout the Babylonian, Persian etc kingdoms.. than the ones who live in Jerusalem today who are descended from European Jews fleeing pre, mid or post-war Germany.

Regarding the Canaanite woman.. the interesting thing is that Jesus was driven to a Gentile region due to persecution by the Jews. This is highly symbolic and a prophetic situation that shows that salvation would come to the gentiles, that due to their unbelief.. the Gentiles would also be given the opportunity to be saved. Jesus called the woman a dog.. but then the woman called Jesus a crumb, I am not sure what is worse to be called a dog or a crumb. But anyway Jesus was satisfied that the woman had enough faith to be saved.

Very good James.
One thing i may say, is that Hitler was not a German but 3 times removed from being a Jew him self.
And his position of practice is more along the lines of the Jew of the OT in so many ways.
And most of the whole lot of Nazi high command were of the Jewish blood line.
So i think their view is not so much because the people were Jews as a race but a position on something other than just that. sure it sounds good to push such, that simpletons would swallow.

 

[DHC]

But is there advantages to being a Jew? yes some advantages (Rom 3:1) but with regards to salvation, are Jews any better than Gentiles?..there is NO advantage at all (Rom 3:9).

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery,
so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;

There is a distinct difference between Jew and Gentile.
The Jews have been hardened to Jesus, grafted out.
We stand by belief.

Romans 11:24
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were
grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these
who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

Nice to hear from you.

Oh puddlegum, "race" is everything in the pages of the scripture.

I will paraphrase some passage from the Gospel of Matthew to
highlight the primary ministry of Jesus.

Matthew 15
24 But He answered and said, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

( The house of Israel are the sheep who are the natural descendants of Abraham.)

25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, Lord, help me!

( The woman was a Canaanite from Tyre and Sidon, a Gentile!)

26 And He answered and said, It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.

(The children are the chosen race, the natural descendants of Abraham. The dogs are the filthy,
Gentile sinners, the Canaanite woman was a dog, and she knew this was true.)

27 But she said, Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

( Yes, Lord, but even the dogs or gentiles feed on the crumbs from God's table.)

28 Then Jesus said to her, O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish. And her daughter was healed at once.

( Jesus granted the dog her wish, only Paul received this stunning revelation
later. That the Gentiles were also heirs of the kingdom of God.)

Jesus was the "King of the Jews" firstly.

So puddlegum, race is all in the scriptures, know your place.

So Puddleglum know your place ? I am a Hebrew as my sir name is just that a Hebrew name. but i am a Christian Hebrew. so where is my place ? i think my place is in Christ from beginning and to the end. and not with some pompous worldly delinquent Jew.

 

[Puddleglum]

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery,
so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;

There is a distinct difference between Jew and Gentile.
The Jews have been hardened to Jesus, grafted out.
We stand by belief.

Romans 11:24
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were
grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these
who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Fact is all are to come to Jesus Christ. end of story.

 

[DHC]

i think my place is in Christ from beginning and to the end. and not with some pompous worldly delinquent Jew.

Hello Puddlegum.

Noticed your reply, and I will not reply to this.

 

[james1523]

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery,
so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;

There is a distinct difference between Jew and Gentile.
The Jews have been hardened to Jesus, grafted out.
We stand by belief.

Romans 11:24
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were
grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these
who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Yes, there are natural olive branches cut off to be grafted in again.. and wild olive branches to be grafted in. Both are able to be grafted into Christ as the vine and then there is no difference.

 

[DHC]

Yes, there are natural olive branches cut off to be grafted in again.. and wild olive branches to be grafted in. Both are able to be grafted into Christ as the vine and then there is no difference.

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery,
so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;

This is present tense, the Jews are resistant to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
God is able to graft them back in of course, but they have been hardened
against Christ. This state of unbelief that the Jews are in, will remain until
the fullness of the Gentiles is realized.

I am not saying that it is impossible for a Jew to become a Christian.
Some Jews are Christians, most are not even interested in Jesus.

In the early church era the Jews were opposed to Christianity.
The Jews follow a "Law of Righteousness", their own righteousness.
They do not accept the "Righteousness of Christ", the free gift by Grace.

"that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;"

 

[james1523]

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery,
so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;

This is present tense, the Jews are resistant to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
God is able to graft them back in of course, but they have been hardened
against Christ. This state of unbelief that the Jews are in, will remain until
the fullness of the Gentiles is realized.

I am not saying that it is impossible for a Jew to become a Christian.
Some Jews are Christians, most are not even interested in Jesus.

In the early church era the Jews were opposed to Christianity.
The Jews follow a "Law of Righteousness", their own righteousness.
They do not accept the "Righteousness of Christ", the free gift by Grace.

"that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in;"

Yes, this is for two reasons I believe, 1) not all descended from Abraham are Israel, only through Isaac, and 2) God has hardened the heart of His people until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, as you correctly stated.

Coming back to my previous post about modern Jewish heritage - the reality is that many Jews today are not descended from Isaac, e.g. the Khazars, they are not from the Abrahamic tribes, and particularly not from Isaac.

This is where it gets confusing - many of the descendants of Abraham and Isaac are now Muslims (or Christians) today. Many "Jews" in Israel who follow the religion are not descended from Abraham.

The dispersion of the Israelites really scattered Isaac's seed far and wide.

There are Jews in Israel today who are not descended from Isaac and they are preparing to rebuild the temple and bring back the sacrifices, so that anti-Christ may have his throne (2 Thess 2:4). These ones will most likely never believe in the gospel just as the Pharisees did not, because their father is the devil and they are serpentine in nature.

In order to determine if one is from Isaac or not, we need to trace back the ancestral records through the father, not by examining DNA or blood line in the evolutionary concept of "race" (because biologically both mother and father contribute DNA, not just father, and in males the mother contributes more DNA than the father). This is near impossible today unless a family has kept good records or has a strong family tree (with famous/traceable forefathers etc).

Rom 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Rom 9:7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Rom 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Rom 9:18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (NLT)

 

[Puddleglum]

Yes, this is for two reasons I believe, 1) not all descended from Abraham are Israel, only through Isaac, and 2) God has hardened the heart of His people until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, as you correctly stated.

Coming back to my previous post about modern Jewish heritage - the reality is that many Jews today are not descended from Isaac, e.g. the Khazars, they are not from the Abrahamic tribes, and particularly not from Isaac.

This is where it gets confusing - many of the descendants of Abraham and Isaac are now Muslims (or Christians) today. Many "Jews" in Israel who follow the religion are not descended from Abraham.

The dispersion of the Israelites really scattered Isaac's seed far and wide.

There are Jews in Israel today who are not descended from Isaac and they are preparing to rebuild the temple and bring back the sacrifices, so that anti-Christ may have his throne (2 Thess 2:4). These ones will most likely never believe in the gospel just as the Pharisees did not, because their father is the devil and they are serpentine in nature.

In order to determine if one is from Isaac or not, we need to trace back the ancestral records through the father, not by examining DNA or blood line in the evolutionary concept of "race" (because biologically both mother and father contribute DNA, not just father, and in males the mother contributes more DNA than the father). This is near impossible today unless a family has kept good records or has a strong family tree (with famous/traceable forefathers etc).

Rom 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Rom 9:7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Rom 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Rom 9:18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (NLT)

I would just say that one has to look to the good book of how Jacob got his name ? this is where it is all at and nothing other, as all that springs from this is just secondary. Some fools believe all the people are or have the title Israel because they are one from the tribe. this is not the case at all, as they are not infallible and not all pick up on the position one holds as to being a true Israel, but only of the tribe only.
True Christianity is Israel ! but many calling them selves Christians are not Christians at all. Can one say who is going to Heaven ? no ! and that's a fact, as it's only Jesus Christ who gives that right and no man has any right to boast such.
The Jews ? Judah will come in time to believe and that is when the two sticks come together.
The Jews have always been lead down the garden path due to the work of Satan and their Idolatry leads them astray.
I have come across so called christians that push Jews are going to bring in a new. fact is they could not lead anything to God at all but only a man made worldly god. We have Jesus Christ, the Jews have nothing at all, but worldly idolitry. if fools belive the jews will lead us to God today, that is proof that you reject Jesus Christ and never knew him at all.
Jesus Christ is the begining and the end ! end of story people. you must abide in him and only in him. as all other is of Satan.

 

[DHC]

Rom 9:7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Rom 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Hello James.

May I ask how you interpret the following verses.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according
to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello James.

May I ask how you interpret the following verses.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according
to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

But Esau is the same people, remember that.