Should Christians be Pacifist?

[Hekuran]

For the 3rd time, if Christians were ALL to be 100% pacifists no matter what it would've wiped out before it could leave the area.

You are bluffing.

I can provide many, many examples of non-violent responses to threats to Christians.

Answer this. You say that Christians used violence for self defence during the first three centuries of the church: when and where fuss this happen?

 

[Bill Taylor]

You are bluffing.

I can provide many, many examples of non-violent responses to threats to Christians.

Answer this. You say that Christians used violence for self defence during the first three centuries of the church: when and where fuss this happen?

Friend, you are trying to use something written outside of the Word of God to prove Yahova/Yashua/Ruah principle that we have given you a hundred or better verses that when reckoned under the influence of Ruah prove your extra-biblical teaching to be false. If you wish to kneel down and die without resisting, ok, that is your right. Teaching others that your way is godly is not true.

 

[Hekuran]

Friend, you are trying to use something written outside of the Word of God to prove Yahova/Yashua/Ruah principle that we have given you a hundred or better verses that when reckoned under the influence of Ruah prove your extra-biblical teaching to be false. If you wish to kneel down and die without resisting, ok, that is your right. Teaching others that your way is godly is not true.

No I'm not. I'm calling into question a false claim, about the early church.

@MedicBravo is arguing that the early church must have used violence otherwise it would have been eliminated.

He is wrong, and I wouldn't want anyone else reading this thread to be misled so I have asked him for an example. This will make his error clear for all to see.

In the new testament the teaching of Jesus and the apostles is entirely nonviolent.

The church in fact was non-violent, and grew quickly due to the power of the gospel and the remarkable witness of Christians. Many were martyred, many, many more came to faith and salvation in Jesus

Tertullian, a prominent leader of the church at the time said, "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the church".

And yes, if the situation arose, and if God gave me the grace and strength, it would be better to die than to be violent.

It's not me telling people what to do. I'm just repeating whate Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

 

[MedicBravo]

You are bluffing.

I can provide many, many examples of non-violent responses to threats to Christians.

Answer this. You say that Christians used violence for self defence during the first three centuries of the church: when and where fuss this happen?

No, that's your assumption.
If you can, why haven't you?
Many things can be learned from inference. Police do it all the time with far less information and evidence than what God, the Bible, and evidence for it all.
Secular info adds to the Bible as does this it doesn't take away or invalidate it.
You simply do not understand.
Every answer does NOT come from the Bible itself.
Every answer does NOT come from secular things by themselves.
Evidence for ANY single one thing, required, by you or anyone is a poor argument.
The whole "sell your cloak and buy a sword." is but on example.
Peace and non-violence is the OPTIMAL choice but realistically, factually, the former is going to happen a lot less in this world even from back then.
There are so many ways to use violence without killing someone. You're using the term on an extreme level.
You're one person and certainly no authority in this.
With God, Christians have the wisdom to discern how and when, if, and even to what level.
Very simple concepts.

 

[MedicBravo]

No I'm not. I'm calling into question a false claim, about the early church.

@MedicBravo is arguing that the early church must have used violence otherwise it would have been eliminated.

He is wrong, and I wouldn't want anyone else reading this thread to be misled so I have asked him for an example. This will make his error clear for all to see.

In the new testament the teaching of Jesus and the apostles is entirely nonviolent.

The church in fact was non-violent, and grew quickly due to the power of the gospel and the remarkable witness of Christians. Many were martyred, many, many more came to faith and salvation in Jesus

Tertullian, a prominent leader of the church at the time said, "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the church".

And yes, if the situation arose, and if God gave me the grace and strength, it would be better to die than to be violent.

It's not me telling people what to do. I'm just repeating whate Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

Per the latter:
Again, Evil done to us is generally, without thought and in haste we feel we went revenge. That person did something wrong/evil to us and we not only want to do something back but MORE.
I know I've felt that way many times in the past and who I used to be.
When you state "church" or "Church" I can assure you not EVERY single one but I'm sure early on most who weren't killed but did suffer quite a bit.
No minority defines a majority.
That's your personal choice and if you have loved ones then they are at the mercy of evil and by "not providing for one's own" is in all things including safety and protection.
Lastly, a slap is one thing. A petty insult where as attacked or robbed by an armed person who's not only going to take whatever, but kill as to leave no witnesses. Nothing to do with being a Christian.

 

[Bill Taylor]

No I'm not. I'm calling into question a false claim, about the early church.

@MedicBravo is arguing that the early church must have used violence otherwise it would have been eliminated.

He is wrong, and I wouldn't want anyone else reading this thread to be misled so I have asked him for an example. This will make his error clear for all to see.

In the new testament the teaching of Jesus and the apostles is entirely nonviolent.

The church in fact was non-violent, and grew quickly due to the power of the gospel and the remarkable witness of Christians. Many were martyred, many, many more came to faith and salvation in Jesus

Tertullian, a prominent leader of the church at the time said, "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the church".

And yes, if the situation arose, and if God gave me the grace and strength, it would be better to die than to be violent.

It's not me telling people what to do. I'm just repeating whate Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

That begs the question, why did He send them out with the swords then if they were not to defend themselves against evil?

 

[Hekuran]

No, that's your assumption.
If you can, why haven't you?
Many things can be learned from inference. Police do it all the time with far less information and evidence than what God, the Bible, and evidence for it all.
Secular info adds to the Bible as does this it doesn't take away or invalidate it.
You simply do not understand.
Every answer does NOT come from the Bible itself.
Every answer does NOT come from secular things by themselves.
Evidence for ANY single one thing, required, by you or anyone is a poor argument.
The whole "sell your cloak and buy a sword." is but on example.
Peace and non-violence is the OPTIMAL choice but realistically, factually, the former is going to happen a lot less in this world even from back then.
There are so many ways to use violence without killing someone. You're using the term on an extreme level.
You're one person and certainly no authority in this.
With God, Christians have the wisdom to discern how and when, if, and even to what level.
Very simple concepts.

Per the latter:
Again, Evil done to us is generally, without thought and in haste we feel we went revenge. That person did something wrong/evil to us and we not only want to do something back but MORE.
I know I've felt that way many times in the past and who I used to be.
When you state "church" or "Church" I can assure you not EVERY single one but I'm sure early on most who weren't killed but did suffer quite a bit.
No minority defines a majority.
That's your personal choice and if you have loved ones then they are at the mercy of evil and by "not providing for one's own" is in all things including safety and protection.
Lastly, a slap is one thing. A petty insult where as attacked or robbed by an armed person who's not only going to take whatever, but kill as to leave no witnesses. Nothing to do with being a Christian.

Let's have see your evidence of early Christians using violence then.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Let's have see your evidence of early Christians using violence then.

https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdXl0amVxZnBhc3ZhYmRlYzU0dzUxdWM4dm00Zjl4OXV5YmNjc2Q0aSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/MGmnFOZRFRo4w/giphy.gif

 

[Hekuran]

https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdXl0amVxZnBhc3ZhYmRlYzU0dzUxdWM4dm00Zjl4OXV5YmNjc2Q0aSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/MGmnFOZRFRo4w/giphy.gif

Sorry to bore you with things like facts. I must say it's a privilege to engage with people in such high quality debate.

Just a little reminder that Jesus taught "do not resist an evildoer".

Love to the family.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Sorry to bore you with things like facts. I must say it's a privilege to engage with people in such high quality debate.

Just a little reminder that Jesus taught "do not resist an evildoer".

Love to the family.

and on the other end of that scale he sent them out armed

 

[Hekuran]

and on the other end of that scale he sent them out armed

I've addressed this several times in the thread already.

Whatever Jesus' meant in the incident when he advised his disciples to get hold of a purse, backpack and sword, it was not to prepare for acts of violence. We know this because when one of the swords was used in an attack on the high priest's servant, Jesus rebuked the attacker and healed the servant.

This is in line with his sermon in the mount teaching, "do not resist an evildoer".

 

[Curtis]

Exo 22:2 “If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder.

Self defense is not what Jesus was referring to in not resisting an evil person. He was referring to not revenging yourself.

Exo 22:3 But if it happens in daylight, the one who killed the thief is guilty of murder. “A thief who is caught must pay in full for everything he stole. If he cannot pay, he must be sold as a slave to pay for his theft.

Here is an example of finding a thief and then killing him which would be revenging or resisting a evil person.

 

[MedicBravo]

That begs the question, why did He send them out with the swords then if they were not to defend themselves against evil?

Yes.
Without God, men's hearts tend to move to sin, disobedience, evil, law-breaking, etc.
Swords are like any tool. Why didn't he have them get axes? An axe is far easier to learn to use and the 12 were NOT trained soldiers. A sword used by untrained is likely going to hurt the user than the attacker.
Swords have longer reach even the short ones.
Our bodies can withstand a lot of damage before it starts to fail. Inference would show that it would be a deterent, tool for cutting things, killing & preparing dead animals, etc.
Jesus wouldn't have gone far at all if 100% pacifist suggested by Hekran was part of Christianity.

 

[MedicBravo]

Let's have see your evidence of early Christians using violence then.

That's a flawed demand.
There are so many things that can't be proven 100% b/c how history is recorded.
IDK if you learned this on your own but if someone else told you, they are 100% wrong.

Was Jesus A Pacifist?​

 

[Hekuran]

That's a flawed demand.
There are so many things that can't be proven 100% b/c how history is recorded.
IDK if you learned this on your own but if someone else told you, they are 100% wrong.

Was Jesus A Pacifist?​

It's a very reasonable demand to ask for evidence to back up a claim.

It's showing that your claim - made several times on this thread -that the early used violence to defend itself is utterly baseless.

You have nothing to back up what you have said about the early church.

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer", and all the avaicle evidence indicates that for the first 300 years the communities that believed in him and followed his teaching took his words seriously and literally, and lived in non-violently.

 

[Brad Huber]

It's a very reasonable demand to ask for evidence to back up a claim.

It's showing that your claim - made several times on this thread -that the early used violence to defend itself is utterly baseless.

You have nothing to back up what you have said about the early church.

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer", and all the avaicle evidence indicates that for the first 300 years the communities that believed in him and followed his teaching took his words seriously and literally, and lived in non-violently.

That was then, this is now. So tell me, has the world changed much from that time? You are trying to tell everyone that "your" way is the only right way. Nothing new under the sun. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The jews were adament that they way God told them to be righteous was the only way, and anyone who committed certain sins were to be stoned. It was right there in God's commands. But there were other commands to show mercy and many other commands that they werent so good at fulfilling. They tended to laser focus on only the parts they thought was more important. Thats what you are doing Hekuran. People have shown you examples that there were not in line with your laser focus on one scripture and some recorded history that supports your ideals. But laser focus tends to leave out the will of God. I know that you wont listen to this, but your ideals arent always God's will in all circumstances. We as christians should always prefer peace and avoid violence if at all possible. But whether you believe it or not, its not God's will that we die just to show we are willing to do so. I am not bothering to say anymore in the discussion, because of your laser focus on your way that must be the only way in all circumstances in your eyes, you are just not open to God's will in all aspects of your life.

 

[Bill Taylor]

I've addressed this several times in the thread already.

Whatever Jesus' meant in the incident when he advised his disciples to get hold of a purse, backpack and sword, it was not to prepare for acts of violence. We know this because when one of the swords was used in an attack on the high priest's servant, Jesus rebuked the attacker and healed the servant.

This is in line with his sermon in the mount teaching, "do not resist an evildoer".

Note please: You are trying to impose your will upon every person choosing to follow Yashua! That alone will alarm any studied Christ Follower. According to your personal theology (a second alarm) MB and I are condemned to eternity in the Lake of Fire, placing you in the position of judging millions of men and now women like us (alarm No 3). Neither I nor MB want you to cover us nor any soldier Yahovah has called to duty.

If you were a Sgt. York type of conscientious objector we would be proud to cover you or to have you cover us. But, and I'm being honest, we regard people that will not protect their mom, wife and/or, children to be members of a class of people that are unfit. You have refused to admit that carrying the swords gave the Desciples meant they could and would have defended themselves against certain death. MB and I have stared down Satan's throat and spit down it. Protecting God's people, we will again but if you give up this false doctrine and arrive in Heaven, MB and I will shake your hand.

 

[Hekuran]

You have refused to admit that carrying the swords gave the Desciples meant they could and would have defended themselves against certain death.

Do you know what the disciples actually did?

When Jesus was arrested, they scattered and hid.

Then they returned to Galilee where Jesus, risen from the dead, met them and taught them.

On the day of Pentecost, the Spirit descended on the disciples and they drew a huge crowd. 3,000 people turned to Christ.

Soon after, the disciples were persecuted by the temple authorities. Stephen was stoned to death.

Many times the apostles miraculosly escaped imprisonment and danger.

We don't have the fate of disciples in the biblical record, but early church writings say that Paul was eventually beheaded in Rome, Peter crucified.

At no time do we have any indication at all that any of them used violence to protect themselves.

They followed Jesus command, "do not resist an evildoer."

 

[Hekuran]

According to your personal theology (a second alarm) MB and I are condemned to eternity in the Lake of Fire, placing you in the position of judging millions

It's not my personal theology, I'm simply exhorting you to take Jesus' words seriously.

And of course I makie no judgement about your standing before God or whether you belong to God's eternal kingdom.

I don't believe that a person has to agree with me to be saved, only trust in Jesus.

 

[Bill Taylor]

It's not my personal theology, I'm simply exhorting you to take Jesus' words seriously.

And of course I makie no judgement about your standing before God or whether you belong to God's eternal kingdom.

I don't believe that a person has to agree with me to be saved, only trust in Jesus.

I have demonstrated to you that Yashua is the God of the Jewish Scriptures and he called men to go to war over and over. Medic Bravo and I have repeatedly shown you that your theology is not that of Yahova and you insist on teaching a lie. Neither one of us objects to the idea you will never be buddied up in a defensive trench, it is your right to bow down and let them cut your head off but it is not your right to teach such suicidal instruction on a hard-core Christian web site for children to read.