Should Christians be Pacifist?

[Hekuran]

John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Not usually, but it could be if necessary.

Rom 12:17; Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18; If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

We shouldn't go looking for trouble, we shouldn't want to fight. .... "if possible" , be at peace with people. I wonder why Paul added this proviso... "if possible, as much as it depends on you".
Sometimes it isn't possible. Sometimes it doesn't depend on us.

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

Jesus makes a big mess here in the temple, throwing over tables, driving livestock out etc, but there's no record of him striking anyone. And, look, he takes care not to harm the doves in cages: he doesn't overturn them, but commands the seller to leave.

This is the incident that stepped up the authorities plan to kill him. And it's a symbolic gesture foreshadowing the destruction of the temple.

 

[MedicBravo]

Was Jesus being a pacifist here?

Matt 12:34; "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

Matt 23:24; "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Matt 23:25; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matt 23:26; "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matt 23:27; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Matt 23:28; "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matt 23:29; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matt 23:30; and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
Matt 23:31; "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Matt 23:32; "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

John 8:44; "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matt 10:34; "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt 10:35; "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt 10:36; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Was Peter being a pacifist here?

John 18:10; Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
John 18:11; So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

Matt 26:53; "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Matt 26:54; "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Was the problem here, that Peter was protecting Jesus, or was the problem Peter was ( unknowingly ) preventing Jesus's crucifixion and God's plan?
Jesus says He could call 12,000 angels and wipe all these people out if He wanted to.

1. Yes. Peter acted hastily and out of loss of emotions. He's human like the rest of us. I'm sure it would be very difficult to stand by and do nothing as one's spouse, parent, kids, etc. are killed in front of them.
2. Jesus' ministry was 3 year-ish. How He became so great friends with the 12 and the love they shared to see Him being taken was overwhelming.

With regards to "selling one's cloak and buying a sword" was two-fold.
Early Christians were hunted down to the point where hiding them would warrant being killed.
The sword would be used not only for self-defense from thieves and others but also to kill their food.
Human muscle cells do BEST with animal protein for nutrients.

What should scare every Christian it the day will come when we are hunted down, taken, and killed for being Christian.

 

[MedicBravo]

@MedicBravo, you're arguing on the basis of words you think Jesus must have said. Do I need to tell you that is a terribly weak basis for persuasion?

I'm not alone in taking Jesus' words seriously.

Paul, in the letter to the church in Rome, said,

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

And Peter makes the link between Jesus' example of suffering and ours explicit:

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

Both Peter and Paul were accustomed to being beaten even though they had done no harm to anyone. They knew what they were talking about. Both would be killed for their faith.

You're not going to convince anyone that self-defense is NOT Biblical and He did not speak on it.
Only Jesus could give someone the authority (and power and title) as apostle. There are no prophets either.
Fighting evil is GOOD. If you don't understand that, that's your problem.

 

[Hekuran]

Fighting evil is GOOD. If you don't understand that, that's your problem.

It's the means of fighting evil that's important too. "Overcome evil with good".

 

[Bill Taylor]

That's odd. I've been reading the gospels all my life, but I've not yet come across the bit where Jesus commands to protect self and others.

I'm not telling you what to think or do, and I'm certainly not calling Jesus a hypocrite - his teaching and life are completely consistent with each other.

I'm just reminding you what he said: "do not resist an evildoer."

As per Jiohm 1, Yashua is the Creator God. That being true, He commands us to obey His commandments, and every commandment in the, so-called, Old Testament is His. word of instruction and commands also. He knew we would never manage the Ten Commandments written in stone but they do teach us to reccognise our sins. But He has instructed and commanded us in many areas folks do not want to hear. Just to clarify my position, He called me to defend freedom, I don't know, perhaps you are called to pay the tax to fund it?

 

[Hekuran]

He has instructed and commanded us in many areas folks do not want to hear.

Would it be fair to say that a specific command of God you do not want to hear is, "do not resist an evildoer"?

I'm wondering if the one you follow is 80 per cent John Wayne, 20 per cent Jesus Christ. What you write draws very deeply from American values, only a very shallow draught of the kingdom of God.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Would it be fair to say that a specific command of God you do not want to hear is, "do not resist an evildoer"?

I'm wondering if the one you follow is 80 per cent John Wayne, 20 per cent Jesus Christ. What you write draws very deeply from American values, only a very shallow draught of the kingdom of God.

You are trying to be cute and you're failing. I liked the Duke but he is not my leader. MB and I have both explained that there is context given in the scriptures and that you are using verses drawn out of context that the original texts do not even exist. Your excerpts are being drawn from a letter that agrees with the general continuity of all scripture.

 

[Hekuran]

You are trying to be cute and you're failing. I liked the Duke but he is not my leader. MB and I have both explained that there is context given in the scriptures and that you are using verses drawn out of context that the original texts do not even exist. Your excerpts are being drawn from a letter that agrees with the general continuity of all scripture.

I'm absolutely serious. I'm not trying to be cute, What I see is a spiritual outlook formed by American culture first, and Jesus only second.

You have made a few posts with lots of references to context and hermeneutic principles, but I see absolutely nothing in what you have written to show me how the context of Jesus preaching the Sermon on the Mount at the beginning of his three year ministry means we shouldn't take him at his word when he says, "do not resist an evildoer."

 

[Bill Taylor]

I'm absolutely serious. I'm not trying to be cute, What I see is a spiritual outlook formed by American culture first, and Jesus only second.

You have made a few posts with lots of references to context and hermeneutic principles, but I see absolutely nothing in what you have written to show me how the context of Jesus preaching the Sermon on the Mount at the beginning of his three year ministry means we shouldn't take him at his word when he says, "do not resist Show me this pool of gunk that spewed forth any mammal. And you people think we are weak-minded? We live with the Spirit of God guiding our steps.an evildoer."

One more time, not that it will score a hit but the Sermon is not a stand-alone piece of scripture. In scripture, our God commanded the Jews to wipe out entire nations, down through the children. Just as Solomon taught, there is a season for all things. This is in context with the Sermon and must be reckoned with in scripture.

 

[MedicBravo]

@MedicBravo, you're arguing on the basis of words you think Jesus must have said. Do I need to tell you that is a terribly weak basis for persuasion?

I'm not alone in taking Jesus' words seriously.

Paul, in the letter to the church in Rome, said,

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

And Peter makes the link between Jesus' example of suffering and ours explicit:

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

Both Peter and Paul were accustomed to being beaten even though they had done no harm to anyone. They knew what they were talking about. Both would be killed for their faith.

Your opinion it is weak is untrue.
You're looking at the past, culture, and people through a modernistic lens.
"Overcome evil with good." Exactly, Good actions including violence with wisdom IS fighting evil. I don't care how you spin it or Google-cherry pick, any evil person with half a brain (literally) would have used total pacifism against the early Christians, killed them, and destroyed all evidence of it. That did NOT happen so many Christians did use, and I'll put it PC for you, "physical methods to stop evil from harming or un-aliving themselves or other especially those who did not know God and could not defend themselves."
Pharoah himself would have easily wiped out a huge number of Christians.
*No one is sinless but Jesus. Not even Mary.
The 12 were, and I'm sure you agree, would have had such turmoil and an emotional break at some point after Jesus left. They were the ones in charge and responsible for the fledgeling, organized (not created now) relationship and faith in God.
The Crusades:
They were a Catholic-only thing and the Muslims started it. YES. Sounds "childish" but they were the ones invading Christian lands; raping, murdering, stealing, etc. Catholic-Christian soldiers who used the above statement in quotes to STOP evil. Fighting evil isn't so black and white nor can it be done per your weak 100% pacifism.
You're so hard up on this. You make Jesus to be a hypocrite by your suggestion.
Mindless violence is one thing. Violence to stop evil with wisdom and discernment is very different.

 

[Brother Paul]

God made us to be warriors in this evil world not doormat pacifists.

Please show some passages where Jesus condones or instructs His to take up guns or swords to attack our enemies for the Bible I have read so many times says the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal seriously. Show us.

 

[MedicBravo]

Please show some passages where Jesus condones or instructs His to take up guns or swords to attack our enemies for the Bible I have read so many times says the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal seriously. Show us.

Another person requiring a specific answer or "You're wrong."
First, you can't make the decision to be a pacifist and let yourself be murdered for someone else, Christian or not.
Matthew 5:38+ in particular was NOT about war. It was part of guidance for the courts and for lower, petty crimes.
These versses are often mistaken that we are to let someone beat, abuse, and potentially kill us which is 100% absurd. God would not require a man or woman to stay in an abusive relationship and do nothing.
Only Good people can stop Evil people. Last I checked "thoughts and prayers" have NEVER stopped one from killing another, bullets into flowers, and bombs into magical fairy dust.
There is also warning of revenge. It and self-defense are two very different things.

Battle of Jericho

We are commanded to protect the life God gave us and our families and loved ones. If Christian and you don't you have betrayed them. If not, again, you can't make the decision to die for them.

Matthew 5: 28-42 Law of retribution.
In particular at that time a slap on the cheek was a serious insult. Today? Please.
This is also Mosaic law which we are NOT under and were never given. It is applicable;e, as a slap would NOT warrant a full on fist to the face, knife, shotgun, grenade, etc.

There are many examples I could use but you and other have shown your hardness in this.
Fact, is, and I've stated countless times, early Christians and Christianity would've been wiped out at such a pathetic suggestion.

 

[Hekuran]

I don't care how you spin it or Google-cherry pick, any evil person with half a brain (literally) would have used total pacifism against the early Christians, killed them, and destroyed all evidence of it.

You are making an argument from history, and history shows the exact opposite of what you claim.

• The early church was completely pacifist.
• The early church did suffer waves of persecution under evil Roman emperors, some, such as Domitian, that were extremely violent
• The church grew very quickly for the first 3 centuries.

These are all very well attested historical facts. Check them out for yourself.

The message and transforming power of the gospel is far, far greater than any human weapon of violence.

 

[Brad Huber]

• The church grew very quickly for the first 3 centuries.

It expanded because people were fleeing the persecution and would talk about Jesus in the new lands they went to, to escape the persecution, thats what made christianity spread more so, "not" having christians put in the circuses and be killed for the amusement of the people.

 

[MedicBravo]

You are making an argument from history, and history shows the exact opposite of what you claim.

• The early church was completely pacifist.
• The early church did suffer waves of persecution under evil Roman emperors, some, such as Domitian, that were extremely violent
• The church grew very quickly for the first 3 centuries.

These are all very well attested historical facts. Check them out for yourself.

The message and transforming power of the gospel is far, far greater than any human weapon of violence.

Completely? Every single Christian NEVER EVER defended themselves? Absurd. You're thinking about the Disciples and since no one can tract or find EVERY SINGLE Christian ever which is the church not just the first leaders then inference (most logical reason) is that Christians DID defend themselves.
Persecution is nowhere near the same as murder.
Facts? Why did you provide them per your subjective stance?
Wars happened before Jesus and continued to happen after He left.
No "thoughts and prayers" have ever stopped violence and war.
Again, subjectively you can throw your life away and leave the ones you care about at the hands of evil but that is on you.
Unchecked evil is NOT scripture.

 

[Hekuran]

Completely? Every single Christian NEVER EVER defended themselves? Absurd. You're thinking about the Disciples and since no one can tract or find EVERY SINGLE Christian ever which is the church not just the first leaders then inference (most logical reason) is that Christians DID defend themselves.
Persecution is nowhere near the same as murder.
Facts? Why did you provide them per your subjective stance?
Wars happened before Jesus and continued to happen after He left.
No "thoughts and prayers" have ever stopped violence and war.
Again, subjectively you can throw your life away and leave the ones you care about at the hands of evil but that is on you.
Unchecked evil is NOT scripture.

Saying that the christian community embraced non-violence does not mean that no-one who belonged to the church threw a punch in that time.

But the unanimous view of the leaders of the early church was non-violent. Christians did not join the military. The debate at the time was about what a soldier who turns to Jesus should do - is it legitimate to remain a soldier. Being a Christian went hand in hand with rejecting violence.

It's easy to get hold of the writings of Polycarp, Cyprian, Origen, Tertullian. And fascibating to read, even aside from questions about violence.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Please show some passages where Jesus condones or instructs His to take up guns or swords to attack our enemies for the Bible I have read so many times says the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal seriously. Show us.

I am nit trying to be smart but have you read the entire Bible? As per John 1, there is nothing Yashua has not touched, created nor directed on the earth, short of the development of evil. Yashua is Creator God and He is the God of the Jewish Transcripts that, on occasion, ordered the deaths of even the children.

 

[MedicBravo]

Saying that the christian community embraced non-violence does not mean that no-one who belonged to the church threw a punch in that time.

But the unanimous view of the leaders of the early church was non-violent. Christians did not join the military. The debate at the time was about what a soldier who turns to Jesus should do - is it legitimate to remain a soldier. Being a Christian went hand in hand with rejecting violence.

It's easy to get hold of the writings of Polycarp, Cyprian, Origen, Tertullian. And fascibating to read, even aside from questions about violence.

God most certainly used Christians for just wars.
I'm a U.S. Army veteran. I can assure you many passages promote self-defense and of others.
There is a difference which you have shown you are largely ignoring.
Jesus used violence at least once. He warned against revenge.
He did NOT condemn the military. He warned two groups:
1. Those who purposefully pursued a life or first violence.
2. What would be that day's military, guards, police, etc.
Those who live a life who are more exposed to violence as these two would have a higher chance to die b/c of it.
I don't care what you push. The factual and statistical odds prove the early church would've been wiped out and erased if it didn't defend itself.

 

[Bill Taylor]

You must not be very computer savy because I searched the WWW and on a single site I located over a hundred (I think) supporting both views if some are used without Biblical Context. Used with the leading of Ruah and despite "some people's children's" misuse of the numbers imposed on the letter and Historical Writings handed to us via Ruah, remember, there are no contradictions in Yahovah's Holy Word. These sayings are difficult to reckon with one another except Ruah is your Spirit guide.

The link is What Does the Bible Say About Self Defense?

 

[MedicBravo]

Also:
For instance, Esther requested that the Jews be able to defend themselves against the murderous attack by the Persians, which was planned by the villain, Haman (Esther 8:3-6).

In a similar fashion, the Israelites armed themselves for protection when they rebuilt the wall around Jerusalem under the guidance of Nehemiah (Nehemiah 4:11-18). In fact, Scripture records that the Israelites “did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other” (Nehemiah 4:17, NIV).

The builders of the wall even wore their swords as they worked (Nehemiah 4:18). While the Israelites were ready to defend themselves if their enemies tried to attack them to stop them from rebuilding the wall, they did not actively war against their enemies.

Thus, Scripture does include examples of people acting in self-defense. Believers today can and should seek to protect themselves and others from harm. The Bible even includes an example of a man protecting himself and his family from a thief in the night (Exodus 22:2-3).

So, Hekuran, we've provided MORE than necessary and from God and the Bible. You however, have NOT.
Again, a person/mind without God and wisdom does NOT know the difference nor how and when to use violence.
If you truly want to know the enemy, THINK like it.
For the 3rd time, if Christians were ALL to be 100% pacifists no matter what it would've wiped out before it could leave the area.