Should Christians be Pacifist?

[Hekuran]

It is 100% ABSURD to think Jesus means evil should never be resisted.

Jesus did say, "do not resist an evildoer". He didn't mention any exceptions or get out clauses. It's not completely absurd to think Jesus meant what he said.

Why not think through the underlying wisdom of his teaching? Examine it in the light of his own example defeating evil by means of the cross.

 

[MedicBravo]

So if someone was slowly sticking a knife into your stomach, you would just stay still and let him finish the job huh? LOL

Good analogy.

 

[MedicBravo]

No. When the crowds tried to kill Jesus early in his ministry, he escaped them. Doing the same is surely legitimate.

He is the exception to the Rule.
He set the standard. Early Christians would've been killed EASILY and efficiently if they did as you suggest.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Not quite sure where you're going with this, Bill. Do you trust what Jesus teaches when he says, "Do not resist an evildoer"?

In the complete context of scripture... sure! As a stand alone verse, no more than I believe Yashua resides in the Lake of fire.

 

[Hekuran]

He is the exception to the Rule.
He set the standard. Early Christians would've been killed EASILY and efficiently if they did as you suggest.

Christians were killed with ease and efficiency. See the stoning of Stephen in the book of Acts. We know the history of Christians being killed by lions for entertainment in Roman Amphitheatres. They lived and died by the standard set by Jesus.

Do you remember Jesus saying, "if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross and follow me"?

 

[Bill Taylor]

It's not a verse I have, like a card in a game of poker. It's the consistent witness of scripture. And it's unassailable. Jesus doesn't offer any qualifications or mitigating circumstances: "do not resist an evildoer."

I don't fail to see the irony of people who say they take the Bible literally encounter the Sermon on the Mount and suddenly find all sorts of reasons to be non-literal.

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

In the complete context of scripture as MB explained. One question here, please. Are you a Spirit-led, Born Again, believer in Yashua ha'Mashia/Jesus, the Christ?

 

[Hekuran]

In the complete context of scripture as MB explained. One question here, please. Are you a Spirit-led, Born Again, believer in Yashua ha'Mashia/Jesus, the Christ?

Yes. I follow Jesus Christ, my lord and saviour. In him, God dwelled with us as a man. He died and rose from the dead. I now live in expectation of his glorious return when he will judge the living and the dead and restore all things in heaven and earth to himself.

 

[MedicBravo]

He did advocate and command to protect self and others which is Scripture but per your insistence, Hekuran, we are to do nothing and be "killed".
You can't make that decision for others especially those who are not Christians who you are commanded to protect and provide for.
By that are you calling Jesus a hypocrite OR with Him we can learn the wisdom to know how and when to use violence.
If I die b/c of what YOU think is right I leave behind many I care for and some I know are not Christian. I've abandoned by duty and commandment to provide and protect them from evil people if I do as you suggest.

 

[Dave M]

you guys should look up the story of Jim Elliot the missionary incredible story,

 

[joestue]

you guys should look up the story of Jim Elliot the missionary incredible story,

Encouraged by these friendly encounters, they began plans to visit the Huaorani. Their plans were preempted by the arrival of a larger group of about 10 Huaorani warriors, who killed Elliot and his four companions on January 8, 1956. Jim Elliot was the first of the five missionaries killed when he and Peter Fleming were greeting two of those attackers. Elliot's body was found downstream, along with those of the other men. Ed McCully's body was found even farther downstream.


and had he been much more shrewd about it, good possibility the handful of folks who killed him.. would not have succeeded and might have been saved themselves.
but that's not what we like to think about.

so anyhow in real life a friend of mine has several children with a woman he met from the shuar tribe of ecuador, they are doing reasonably ok, although his mom, seemed to express to me she doesn't understand her son. i do . he bought land in ecuador to get out of the USA.. his wife only tried to kill him twice, they are doing better now. her brother was murdered a few years ago, she found his body in a river.
my friend's dad was able to find a missionary from the usa who went to the shuar tribe in the 50's. he was able to find her again, still living in the jungle as of like 5 years ago, and told him the tribe had a 30% homicide rate. you were equally likely to get murdered as you were to die of natural illness before the age of 20, i think that after he heard that he understood his wife's violent tendencies.

anyhow. the violent be violent, and they both fall in a pit...

my friend's wife somehow found a bible at age 12 and left the tribe, lived on her own, homeless for 6 years, went back to the tribe.. then a few years later met my friend. crazy stuff. when i met her in 2016 iirc, she expressed concern that she didn't trust american christians and didn't want to get baptized in america because.. well.. she knew damn well the spiritual realm was real and didn't want a weird false passive american christian "spirit".

you had best know what you're getting into before you hand gifts out of an airplane, or.. well, you know.. having money and buying land in the middle of nowhere next to a violent people.

 

[Hekuran]

He did advocate and command to protect self and others which is Scripture but per your insistence, Hekuran, we are to do nothing and be "killed".
You can't make that decision for others especially those who are not Christians who you are commanded to protect and provide for.
By that are you calling Jesus a hypocrite OR with Him we can learn the wisdom to know how and when to use violence.
If I die b/c of what YOU think is right I leave behind many I care for and some I know are not Christian. I've abandoned by duty and commandment to provide and protect them from evil people if I do as you suggest.

That's odd. I've been reading the gospels all my life, but I've not yet come across the bit where Jesus commands to protect self and others.

I'm not telling you what to think or do, and I'm certainly not calling Jesus a hypocrite - his teaching and life are completely consistent with each other.

I'm just reminding you what he said: "do not resist an evildoer."

 

[MedicBravo]

That's odd. Nowhere does it suggest that EVERY SINGLE WORLD Jesus spoke is recorded in the Bible.
In fact, the same goes for anyone in any history book and the Bible.
I can tell you're so hung up on this. If you, subjectively as a person, wants to be do "that" as your choice go right ahead.
No one here needs a reminder. The "Do not resist evil" is take out of context so much and for so long people need to learn it correctly.
Jesus defended his Father's house using violence.
There are reasons Jesus had 12 Disciples/teachers not one.

 

[B-A-C]

That's odd. I've been reading the gospels all my life, but I've not yet come across the bit where Jesus commands to protect self and others.

Luke 22:36
(AMPC) Then He said to them, But now let him who has a purse take it, and also [his provision] bag; and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy a sword.
(ASV) And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
(BSB) “Now, however,” He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.
(CSB) Then he said to them, “But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one.
(ESV) He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
(Greek NT BYZ+) ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S ουνG3767 CONJ αυτοιςG846 P-DPM αλλαG235 CONJ νυνG3568 ADV οG3588 T-NSM εχωνG2192 V-PAP-NSM βαλαντιονG905 N-ASN αρατωG142 V-AAM-3S ομοιωςG3668 ADV καιG2532 CONJ πηρανG4082 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM μηG3361 PRT-N εχωνG2192 V-PAP-NSM πωλησειG4453 V-FAI-3S τοG3588 T-ASN ιματιονG2440 N-ASN αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ αγορασειG59 V-FAI-3S μαχαιρανG3162 N-ASF
(HCSB) Then He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn't have a sword should sell his robe and buy one.
(ISV) Then he told them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.
(KJV) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(MKJV) And He said to them, But now, he who has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his wallet. And he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
(NAS77) And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.
(NAS95) And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.
(NIrV) He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it. And also take a bag. If you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy one.
(NIV) He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
(NKJV) Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
(NLT) “But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!
(RV) And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet: and he that hath none, let him sell his cloke, and buy a sword.

Jesus says do not resist an evildoer, but He also says.. "buy a sword". Apparently not resisting a evil doer has nothing to do with defending yourself.

Matt 5:38; "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Matt 5:39; "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Matt 5:40; "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Matt 5:41; "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Matt 5:42; "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Nothing here that says, "don't defend yourself if someone wants to kill you."

John 2:14; And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;
John 2:16; and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

The Bible says Jesus was without sin. Did He sin here?

 

[B-A-C]

Was Jesus being a pacifist here?

Matt 12:34; "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

Matt 23:24; "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Matt 23:25; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matt 23:26; "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matt 23:27; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Matt 23:28; "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matt 23:29; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matt 23:30; and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
Matt 23:31; "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Matt 23:32; "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

John 8:44; "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matt 10:34; "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt 10:35; "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt 10:36; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Was Peter being a pacifist here?

John 18:10; Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
John 18:11; So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

Matt 26:53; "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Matt 26:54; "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Was the problem here, that Peter was protecting Jesus, or was the problem Peter was ( unknowingly ) preventing Jesus's crucifixion and God's plan?
Jesus says He could call 12,000 angels and wipe all these people out if He wanted to.

 

[Hekuran]

Luke 22:36
(AMPC) Then He said to them, But now let him who has a purse take it, and also [his provision] bag; and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy a sword.
(ASV) And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
(BSB) “Now, however,” He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.
(CSB) Then he said to them, “But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one.
(ESV) He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
(Greek NT BYZ+) ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S ουνG3767 CONJ αυτοιςG846 P-DPM αλλαG235 CONJ νυνG3568 ADV οG3588 T-NSM εχωνG2192 V-PAP-NSM βαλαντιονG905 N-ASN αρατωG142 V-AAM-3S ομοιωςG3668 ADV καιG2532 CONJ πηρανG4082 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM μηG3361 PRT-N εχωνG2192 V-PAP-NSM πωλησειG4453 V-FAI-3S τοG3588 T-ASN ιματιονG2440 N-ASN αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ αγορασειG59 V-FAI-3S μαχαιρανG3162 N-ASF
(HCSB) Then He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn't have a sword should sell his robe and buy one.
(ISV) Then he told them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.
(KJV) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(MKJV) And He said to them, But now, he who has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his wallet. And he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
(NAS77) And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.
(NAS95) And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.
(NIrV) He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it. And also take a bag. If you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy one.
(NIV) He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
(NKJV) Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
(NLT) “But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!
(RV) And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet: and he that hath none, let him sell his cloke, and buy a sword.

Jesus says do not resist an evildoer, but He also says.. "buy a sword". Apparently not resisting a evil doer has nothing to do with defending yourself.

Matt 5:38; "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Matt 5:39; "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Matt 5:40; "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Matt 5:41; "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Matt 5:42; "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Nothing here that says, "don't defend yourself if someone wants to kill you."

John 2:14; And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;
John 2:16; and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

The Bible says Jesus was without sin. Did He sin here?

@B-A-C you should know better than this. Rather than quote the same verse from different translations, you should check where it fits into the story. Jesus is very clearly not advocating violence here. Read the rest of the encounter and you see that one of the disciples used one of those swords to strike the servant of the High Priest. Jesus rebuked the disciple, then healed the servant's ear. Violence is not Jesus' way.

 

[Hekuran]

Was Jesus being a pacifist here?

Matt 12:34; "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

Matt 23:24; "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Matt 23:25; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matt 23:26; "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matt 23:27; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Matt 23:28; "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matt 23:29; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matt 23:30; and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
Matt 23:31; "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Matt 23:32; "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

John 8:44; "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matt 10:34; "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt 10:35; "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt 10:36; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Was Peter being a pacifist here?

John 18:10; Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
John 18:11; So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

Matt 26:53; "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Matt 26:54; "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Was the problem here, that Peter was protecting Jesus, or was the problem Peter was ( unknowingly ) preventing Jesus's crucifixion and God's plan?
Jesus says He could call 12,000 angels and wipe all these people out if He wanted to.

No. Peter was acting violently. That's why Jesus rebuked him.

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 9:23; When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him,
Acts 9:24; but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death;
Acts 9:25; but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a large basket.

2Cor 11:32; In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me,
2Cor 11:33; and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.

It could be argued that Paul was running away here. But even so, he didn't just lie down and accept that people were trying to kill him.

 

[Hekuran]

That's odd. Nowhere does it suggest that EVERY SINGLE WORLD Jesus spoke is recorded in the Bible.
In fact, the same goes for anyone in any history book and the Bible.
I can tell you're so hung up on this. If you, subjectively as a person, wants to be do "that" as your choice go right ahead.
No one here needs a reminder. The "Do not resist evil" is take out of context so much and for so long people need to learn it correctly.
Jesus defended his Father's house using violence.
There are reasons Jesus had 12 Disciples/teachers not one.

@MedicBravo, you're arguing on the basis of words you think Jesus must have said. Do I need to tell you that is a terribly weak basis for persuasion?

I'm not alone in taking Jesus' words seriously.

Paul, in the letter to the church in Rome, said,

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

And Peter makes the link between Jesus' example of suffering and ours explicit:

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

Both Peter and Paul were accustomed to being beaten even though they had done no harm to anyone. They knew what they were talking about. Both would be killed for their faith.

 

[B-A-C]

Violence is not Jesus' way.

John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Not usually, but it could be if necessary.

Rom 12:17; Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18; If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

We shouldn't go looking for trouble, we shouldn't want to fight. .... "if possible" , be at peace with people. I wonder why Paul added this proviso... "if possible, as much as it depends on you".
Sometimes it isn't possible. Sometimes it doesn't depend on us.

 

[Hekuran]

Acts 9:23; When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him,
Acts 9:24; but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death;
Acts 9:25; but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a large basket.

2Cor 11:32; In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me,
2Cor 11:33; and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.

It could be argued that Paul was running away here. But even so, he didn't just lie down and accept that people were trying to kill him.

Yes, Paul ran away from danger. Jesus did the same see the end of John chapter 8.