The Garden and the Fall

[Curtis]

I told you earlier that FAITH was a gift from GOD, some have received it, some he has not given it too yet. Finish the verse.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (FAITH) is not of yourselves: it (FAITH) is the GIFT of GOD."

Grace you say, Is it (grace) not the undeserved, unmerited favor of God??? And if it is why would you present that YOU must CHOOSE it?

It is better accepted and to have given thanks for it than to list why you deserve it.

The verse tells us that the Grace we receive is FAITH. This is the planting of the seed that allows one to believe. Again God is the instigator of the process
not us.

"I chose you, you did NOT CHOOSE me."

Nobody is saved that does not want to be saved! That is also a gift to choose not to believe. (free will choice which everyone has)

 

[Curtis]

If a man is blinded is that by FREE WILL or GODS choice?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

It is man's choice to either choose life (light) or death (darkness)

 

[Curtis]

God chooses those who choose him.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

 

[PloughBoy]

Cutis, who was God talking too in Deuteronomy? And if they didn’t choose life, what did He say He would do to them. Read the whole chapter remember in context.

 

[PloughBoy]

Cutis, who was God talking too in Deuteronomy? And if they didn’t choose life, what did He say He would do to them. Read the whole chapter remember in context.

 

[Curtis]

Cutis, who was God talking too in Deuteronomy? And if they didn’t choose life, what did He say He would do to them. Read the whole chapter remember in context.

Are you trying to say God saves one group of people one way and another a different way?

 

[PloughBoy]

No I just said read Deuteronomy, in context. And who was He talking too, and if they didn’t obey Him what was He going to do to them, if they didn’t obey all the law He gave them at Sinai. aLL 600 plus laws.

 

[Curtis]

No I just said read Deuteronomy, in context. And who was He talking too, and if they didn’t obey Him what was He going to do to them, if they didn’t obey all the law He gave them at Sinai. aLL 600 plus laws.

You seem to be confused about how life is given to all who chooses life over death. The Jews by faith, and the Gentiles through faith. Grace is always accessed by faith.

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

The curse of the law comes upon everyone who does NOT walk in the same steps as Abraham who is the Father of us ALL.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

 

[rhern53]

You seem to be confused about how life is given to all who chooses life over death. The Jews by faith, and the Gentiles through faith. Grace is always accessed by faith.

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

The curse of the law comes upon everyone who does NOT walk in the same steps as Abraham who is the Father of us ALL.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Jesus was bound by the Mosaic Law. He was committed to accomplished that which was promised to the Fathers in the Old Testament

Jews were first . ...Jesus came to minister only to the Circumcision to confirm the promises made by God to the fathers.

Jesus commanded His deciple not to go to the gentiles but only to the lost sheep of Israel.

Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Matthew 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

At the His Sacrifice, sheading blood.... IT Was Finished ........ now begins the saving of the World ... the curtain was splitin2 ... open for the world

rather than the Law... Now enter Grace for all who will except ... and become part of the body of Christ simply by faith without the Law

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus Christ / God created the Mosaic Law for Israel -- it was to separate them from the heathen nations around them.

In the New Testament -- the Jews didn't accept His being their Messiah -- but, at the same time -- didn't want the Gentiles to be included in 'their' salvation. But John 3:16 had Always been intended. For God so loved the World that He gave.

 

[rhern53]

Jesus Christ / God created the Mosaic Law for Israel -- it was to separate them from the heathen nations around them.

In the New Testament -- the Jews didn't accept His being their Messiah -- but, at the same time -- didn't want the Gentiles to be included in 'their' salvation. But John 3:16 had Always been intended. For God so loved the World that He gave.

You are exactly right

Interestingly The Jews (believers) did not drop the Law but infact were very zealous for it. the reason is they believed Jesus would return right way. Therfore the promises which were given to their fathers would be accomplished.
Yes they were waiting for the reign of their King; which is The 2nd Coming; They didn't anticipate another 2000 year.


But Paul on the other hand was the apostle to the gentile but He tried very hard to teach the The Gospel of Grace to the Jews and was met with much resistance.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus was bound by the Mosaic Law. He was committed to accomplished that which was promised to the Fathers in the Old Testament

Jews were first . ...Jesus came to minister only to the Circumcision to confirm the promises made by God to the fathers.

Jesus commanded His deciple not to go to the gentiles but only to the lost sheep of Israel.

Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Matthew 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

At the His Sacrifice, sheading blood.... IT Was Finished ........ now begins the saving of the World ... the curtain was splitin2 ... open for the world

rather than the Law... Now enter Grace for all who will except ... and become part of the body of Christ simply by faith without the Law

You can not make a theology based on a few scriptures. Everything must be evaluated based on the whole weight of the scriptures.

Did God know Adam and Eve would fall? Absolutely! Did God know that the Jews would not receive him to be their Messiah? Absolutely! God's original plan was for the salvation of ALL men who would receive him to be their savior!

How would the Lord cause the Jews to return to himself who "rejected" him?

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Everyone and anyone who received Jesus was given the right to become a son of God no matter what nationality they were!

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they (Jews) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

How would God reach the "Gentiles"? Through the Jews!

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Jesus said to his Apostles.....

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature [of the whole human race]. (AMP)


Where is the Gospel to be preached?

The poor (Luk_4:18; Luk 7:22)

Captives to Satan (Luk 4:18)

Jews (Act 11:19-20)

Gentiles (Gal 2:2; Eph 3:8)

Heathen (Gal 1:16)

Those who dwell on earth (Rev 14:6)

Every creature (Mar 16:15)

All the world (Mat 24:14; Mar 16:1-20)

Everywhere (Act 8:4)

In cities (Mat 11:1; Act 8:40)

In towns (Mar 1:38)

In synagogues (Mar 1:39; Luk 4:44)

Upon housetops (Mat 10:27)

Regions beyond (2Co 10:16)

 

[rhern53]

You can not make a theology based on a few scriptures. Everything must be evaluated based on the whole weight of the scriptures.

Did God know Adam and Eve would fall? Absolutely! Did God know that the Jews would not receive him to be their Messiah? Absolutely! God's original plan was for the salvation of ALL men who would receive him to be their savior!

How would the Lord cause the Jews to return to himself who "rejected" him?

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Everyone and anyone who received Jesus was given the right to become a son of God no matter what nationality they were!

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they (Jews) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

How would God reach the "Gentiles"? Through the Jews!

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Jesus said to his Apostles.....

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature [of the whole human race]. (AMP)


Where is the Gospel to be preached?

The poor (Luk_4:18; Luk 7:22)

Captives to Satan (Luk 4:18)

Jews (Act 11:19-20)

Gentiles (Gal 2:2; Eph 3:8)

Heathen (Gal 1:16)

Those who dwell on earth (Rev 14:6)

Every creature (Mar 16:15)

All the world (Mat 24:14; Mar 16:1-20)

Everywhere (Act 8:4)

In cities (Mat 11:1; Act 8:40)

In towns (Mar 1:38)

In synagogues (Mar 1:39; Luk 4:44)

Upon housetops (Mat 10:27)

Regions beyond (2Co 10:16)

Are you saying Jesus did not command the apostles to do this:

Matthew 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And are you saying Paul lied when he said this:

Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

[Sue D.]

Actually -- aren't you Both right?

Salvation to the Jews first and Then to the rest of the world.

Just like the great commission -- preach to 'home' first and then spread out to where ever the Holy Spirit leads.

And Because the Jews -- as a group -- haven't accepted Him -- there will be 7 more years After the 'Church' is up and out -- for the Jews To accept Him.

 

[Wnl]

Hi again Kirby,
Have you read my post on good and evil, if not read that first,
it will answer some of your questions, save me writing it again
in answering your post fully.
With Love, Wnl

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and guard and keep it. (AMP)
Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;

Adam was given a "job" and that job was to guard and protect the garden from intruders. Whose fault was it to allow the serpent into the garden?

Ah, Curtis. You quote my absolute all time favorite verse of scripture, Gen 2:15. But, I hasten to point out, it says nothing of defending the garden from intruders. It very specifically directs the man to dress and to tend, horticultural and agricultural maintenance. Note that, for all his wroth, God does not reproach Adam for having allowed the intrusion of an invasive species. Also, there is no mention of any living things in the wilderness beyond the precincts of the garden. Instead Gen 3:1 tells us, "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea..." The serpent's first positive action is of speaking, not intruding. God made the serpent. The serpent was made IN the Garden. I think there's plenty for us to debate when I read "subtle" and you see evil, where I see a snake and you see the devil, without having to add unspoken adventures happening offstage.

The reason I love Gen 2:15 is, as you so rightly point out, it is THE place, the only one, that explains Man's job, his reason for being. It is to cultivate and protect the Creation. I am positively galled whenever I hear Christians insisting that humans don't have to worry about ecology, that we don't have to protect the thing God made. The implication is somehow it must be able to take care of itself. Only, Gen 2:15 doesn't say, "...to dress it and to tend it IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT NEEDS IT," or "IF THE AVERAGE GLOBAL TEMPERATURE GOES HIGHER THAN X°" or "...IF THE MOOD STRIKES YOU."

The only job assignment in the Bible is: protect Nature. If I believed, I'm pretty sure everything else would seem to be of secondary, selfish, and trivial importance. Actually, it's how I feel even as a non-believer.

 

[Sue D.]

Agree with Everything Except your very last sentence.

 

[PloughBoy]

I do not think there were harmful bugs or weeds in the Garden nor did Adam have to water it. Everything was perfect. Nothing could harm anything there, plants could not die. There was no death there. A bee would not sting you, the serpent would not harm. The Sun could not burn you. Why, because it was “The Garden of Eden” and everything was perfect.

 

[PloughBoy]

Oh, man will not destroy the world, the Bible says: God will! It started the day Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal. Life.

 

[David1954]

God knew the end from the beginning.