The Garden and the Fall

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi again Kirby,
Have you read my post on good and evil, if not read that first,
it will answer some of your questions, save me writing it again
in answering your post fully.
With Love, Wnl

Will do, thanks.

 

[PloughBoy]

The Providence of God.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Oh, man will not destroy the world, the Bible says: God will! It started the day Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal. Life.❤

I don't mean to say or even suggest man will or can "destroy the world," (though, in my opinion, we're doing a pretty good job of it). I'm simply resorting to a plain and frank reading of Gen 2:15. This is what humans are supposed to have been placed here to do. No other ifs, ands, or buts. Following the logic of Christian dogma, everything that has since ensued has been a case of humanity bungling it up and his failed attempts to rehabilitate himself just enough to be worthy of resuming that Divine duty.

You won't be surprised I find LOTS of inconsistency in both OT and NT Scripture and in much of Christian theology. One thing I find admirably... no... magnificently consistent is the obvious principle of selflessness. It starts at Gen 2:15, where God says, in effect, "Don't worry about yourself. You yourself aren't that important. What's important is my Creation (which, admittedly, DOES include you). Take care of it. Don't ask way. Don't ask how or how much. Too much is never enough. You take care of THAT, and I'll take care of you." Then we totally mess everything up. Cut to: A few thousand years of shed tears and water under the bridge later, and God sends his only begotten son to settle the account, and wipe everything clean. Jesus performs the ULTIMATE selfless sacrifice, dying not just for his own earthly kin, not just for the faceless people in the crowd at Calvary, but for every human who shall every live. People he might have known would be born, but people he never met, nonetheless.

I don't think I'll ever be able to get my head around somebody who sees the example of that selflessness, and their takeaway is, "What do I have to do to make sure I, ME, MYSELF get to go to heaven?" I know the price of that golden ticket is supposed to be devotion PLUS good deeds. But if you'd care to go back and review any of my previous conversations here (I wouldn't recommend it. I was at least as tedious there as I am now), you'll see a constant drumbeat of warnings about the peril of my everlasting soul, and a lot of virtue signaling from people who are confident they're on the right side of things.

I suppose I could read those exhortations in a charitable light. They are at least expending the "selfless" energy it takes to inform me of the error of my ways. But I honestly see the Crucifixion and the lesson I get is to go be unafraid of any amount of sacrifice in the cause of good. The soul-saving should probably just take care of itself.

...in my honest opinion.

 

[PloughBoy]

You sound like a Pilgrim name “Christian”. You can find him in one of the best novel that has been rated #1 of the best 100 greatest novels ever written: “Pilgrim Progress” by John Bunyan. Try the old English version. Free copy on line or audio on “you Tube”. Old version. Tell me what you think. A little over 7 hours play.

 

[rhern53]

I don't mean to say or even suggest man will or can "destroy the world," (though, in my opinion, we're doing a pretty good job of it). I'm simply resorting to a plain and frank reading of Gen 2:15. This is what humans are supposed to have been placed here to do. No other ifs, ands, or buts. Following the logic of Christian dogma, everything that has since ensued has been a case of humanity bungling it up and his failed attempts to rehabilitate himself just enough to be worthy of resuming that Divine duty.

You won't be surprised I find LOTS of inconsistency in both OT and NT Scripture and in much of Christian theology. One thing I find admirably... no... magnificently consistent is the obvious principle of selflessness. It starts at Gen 2:15, where God says, in effect, "Don't worry about yourself. You yourself aren't that important. What's important is my Creation (which, admittedly, DOES include you). Take care of it. Don't ask way. Don't ask how or how much. Too much is never enough. You take care of THAT, and I'll take care of you." Then we totally mess everything up. Cut to: A few thousand years of shed tears and water under the bridge later, and God sends his only begotten son to settle the account, and wipe everything clean. Jesus performs the ULTIMATE selfless sacrifice, dying not just for his own earthly kin, not just for the faceless people in the crowd at Calvary, but for every human who shall every live. People he might have known would be born, but people he never met, nonetheless.

I don't think I'll ever be able to get my head around somebody who sees the example of that selflessness, and their takeaway is, "What do I have to do to make sure I, ME, MYSELF get to go to heaven?" I know the price of that golden ticket is supposed to be devotion PLUS good deeds. But if you'd care to go back and review any of my previous conversations here (I wouldn't recommend it. I was at least as tedious there as I am now), you'll see a constant drumbeat of warnings about the peril of my everlasting soul, and a lot of virtue signaling from people who are confident they're on the right side of things.

I suppose I could read those exhortations in a charitable light. They are at least expending the "selfless" energy it takes to inform me of the error of my ways. But I honestly see the Crucifixion and the lesson I get is to go be unafraid of any amount of sacrifice in the cause of good. The soul-saving should probably just take care of itself.

...in my honest opinion.

Forgive me if I'm wrong or just didn't understand.
The only thing the Lord ask of us is to believe in His death burial and resurrection and that He is at the right hand of the Father. We believe without having to jump any hoops or do a dance.
continue to place your faith in Him and he will hold on to you . He will never leave you or forsake you.
this passage will express it allot better:

1 Corinthians 3: 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

not everyone can be teachers or Evangelist or preacher. this world is going down hill fast it's not going to get better. One day you and I will stand before the Lord and we will smile and not worry anymore.
For we are saved by grace thru faith in Jesus. that's all.

let me know if I misunderstood........ thank you Jesus.

 

[Wnl]

Hi Kirby,
As regards sacrifice, I implore you to watch on YouTube
John McAthur on The myth of Influence.
He can explain it in a far more greater depth than I can.
With Love, Wnl

 

[Brad Huber]

I don't mean to say or even suggest man will or can "destroy the world," (though, in my opinion, we're doing a pretty good job of it). I'm simply resorting to a plain and frank reading of Gen 2:15. This is what humans are supposed to have been placed here to do. No other ifs, ands, or buts. Following the logic of Christian dogma, everything that has since ensued has been a case of humanity bungling it up and his failed attempts to rehabilitate himself just enough to be worthy of resuming that Divine duty.

You won't be surprised I find LOTS of inconsistency in both OT and NT Scripture and in much of Christian theology. One thing I find admirably... no... magnificently consistent is the obvious principle of selflessness. It starts at Gen 2:15, where God says, in effect, "Don't worry about yourself. You yourself aren't that important. What's important is my Creation (which, admittedly, DOES include you). Take care of it. Don't ask way. Don't ask how or how much. Too much is never enough. You take care of THAT, and I'll take care of you." Then we totally mess everything up. Cut to: A few thousand years of shed tears and water under the bridge later, and God sends his only begotten son to settle the account, and wipe everything clean. Jesus performs the ULTIMATE selfless sacrifice, dying not just for his own earthly kin, not just for the faceless people in the crowd at Calvary, but for every human who shall every live. People he might have known would be born, but people he never met, nonetheless.

I don't think I'll ever be able to get my head around somebody who sees the example of that selflessness, and their takeaway is, "What do I have to do to make sure I, ME, MYSELF get to go to heaven?" I know the price of that golden ticket is supposed to be devotion PLUS good deeds. But if you'd care to go back and review any of my previous conversations here (I wouldn't recommend it. I was at least as tedious there as I am now), you'll see a constant drumbeat of warnings about the peril of my everlasting soul, and a lot of virtue signaling from people who are confident they're on the right side of things.

I suppose I could read those exhortations in a charitable light. They are at least expending the "selfless" energy it takes to inform me of the error of my ways. But I honestly see the Crucifixion and the lesson I get is to go be unafraid of any amount of sacrifice in the cause of good. The soul-saving should probably just take care of itself.

...in my honest opinion.

What was your first job as a child? Are you still doing it? No? But you were created to do it for your whole life.

 

[Sue D.]

@Kirby -- there are no 'good works' on our part to be included with Christ's shed blood on the cross for us in order to make a person's salvation possible. Our personal heart's acceptable and confession -- thank you God for your salvation.

When a person Does accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior -- the blood of Christ , the cross plus Nothing, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person immediately and That brings an inner peace that has never been there before. THAT is
the presence of the Holy Spirit making His presence known to the person.

Ephesians 2:8 - 9

 

[Sue D.]

We are the important part Of God's Creation. Adam was created by God separate from the animal world. God's redemption / salvation is for People. The most important assignment for born-again believers is to willingly share the Gospel unto salvation with all who willingly listen to it. And , hopefully 'they' will accept. Because God Would that All would accept His plan for Our salvation, but He Also knows that lots of people won't. And it's our salvation that makes our eternal life in heaven possible. Our Eternal life is what will last forever. This earthly life is temporary.

One of the posters commented that the serpent was simply having a conversation with Eve. Apparently that was normal before the Fall took place. It is Also that the serpent was actually satan or than satan entered into the serpent. There are some very huge, beautiful serpents/ snakes in this world. It's very possible that it was one of those kind that talked with Eve. It's suggested that it was in fact satan, because satan Is known to be the biggest liar , deceiver ever known. He wanted to distract Eve from listening / following God's instructions / warning to her.

 

[Hekuran]

We are the important part Of God's Creation. Adam was created by God separate from the animal world. God's redemption / salvation is for People. The most important assignment for born-again believers is to willingly share the Gospel unto salvation with all who willingly listen to it. And , hopefully 'they' will accept. Because God Would that All would accept His plan for Our salvation, but He Also knows that lots of people won't. And it's our salvation that makes our eternal life in heaven possible. Our Eternal life is what will last forever. This earthly life is temporary.

One of the posters commented that the serpent was simply having a conversation with Eve. Apparently that was normal before the Fall took place. It is Also that the serpent was actually satan or than satan entered into the serpent. There are some very huge, beautiful serpents/ snakes in this world. It's very possible that it was one of those kind that talked with Eve. It's suggested that it was in fact satan, because satan Is known to be the biggest liar , deceiver ever known. He wanted to distract Eve from listening / following God's instructions / warning to her.

Hi Sue,

I think your description of God's plan of salvation misses the magnificence of the good news. It's clear that God intends to liberate not just our souls, but the whole of creation from bondage to death and decay. (See Roman's 8).

That's how, somehow, the tree of life is present in the closing chapters of the Bible as well as the opening scene.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, there Will be a new heaven and a new earth -- Revelation 21: 1.

the Good News is that God has given mankind The way to be able to enjoy the coming new heaven and new earth. This time Forever.

 

[Hekuran]

Yes. Some people assume that this world will be destroyed and start again, but that's not how the Bible speaks of 'new earth'. This world will be restored and renewed, once again perfectly aligned with God's purpose.

 

[PloughBoy]

The “Cosmos” will be destroy, the moon the stars , the Sun, the Earth, all creation fell into corruption when Adam and Eve disobeyed God! It seems like some Christians do not see the asperity of the fall. When God Spoke to Eve, He use strong language, “WHAT Is this thou has done”? So in saying that, God will Create a New “Cosmos”! A New UNIVERSE! That eyes have not seen.......ff.

 

[Curtis]

Ah, Curtis. You quote my absolute all time favorite verse of scripture, Gen 2:15. But, I hasten to point out, it says nothing of defending the garden from intruders. It very specifically directs the man to dress and to tend, horticultural and agricultural maintenance.

Kirby, there was no "curse" on the earth at this time so keeping the weeds out or other maintenance was not need!ed in the garden until after the curse which came as a result of sin!

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Hebrew word for "keep" in this verse means, "to guard and or protect"

shâmar
shaw-mar'
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).

 

[David1954]

The Lord God did not plan Adam, and Eve to fall, but he did allow it, or man would not have had a free will choice. Allowing something to happen, and commissioning it is not the same thing.

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Adam sinning was part of the plan before the plan began.

 

[Sue D.]

Knowing something will happen and Planning it to happen are two different things.

 

[David1954]

Knowing something will happen and Planning it to happen are two different things.

He knew the result of the circumstance He created.

 

[Sue D.]

He knew Calvary would be necessary so He planned for it. In fact the first 'shedding of blood for forgiveness' was for Adam and Eve. He provided animal coverings for them. Which necessitated the first blood sacrifice.

 

[David1954]

He knew Calvary would be necessary so He planned for it. In fact the first 'shedding of blood for forgiveness' was for Adam and Eve. He provided animal coverings for them. Which necessitated the first blood sacrifice.

He created a circumstance that Adam would break the law.

 

[Sue D.]

God allowed a situation to test Adam and Eve. One simple instruction to follow -- Not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But Eve succombed to satans deceitfulness and did Not believe God's Word.

Everything else in that beautiful garden was theirs for the enjoyment. Except that One thing.

Satan tempted Eve with being as smart as God. To her, that sounded pretty good. And then Adam followed her.

Immediately they 'knew' and God Also knew that they 'knew'. Their innocense was Gone Forever. And so it has been ever since.