The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[Chopper]

:laugh: LOL!!!! Just goes to show how precious life is...even an Old Dog like us can still learn a new trick!!!

Ha, ha! Bless you're old bearded puss. Hey, when you and I stop learning new tricks, they'll have to put us in the ground. You know that you're my favorite person in "Talk Jesus" I hope. There is something wonderful about your spirit. There is something special that God has placed in your heart and spirit that is uncommon in the human realm. I want you to know that I treasure our friendship, and will really enjoy meeting you in Glory. We can sit on a park bench, by the Crystal sea and share all the "new tricks" that we learned in this life.........Can't wait......Love You!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

should we base our belief on things not written?

May I ask where in the Scripture does it say, "born again Christian"?

And may I also ask what this means, please,
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Corinthians 15:45-49


and while in 1st Corinthians, rewind,
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Corinthians 15:29-34


Bless you ....><>


But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen; was Jesus resurrected? Born Again?

 

[Chopper]

John 15:1-6 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

A grapevine branch can survive and produce foliage for a while after it has been severed, but it cannot produce fruit unless it is connected to a root stock. As Jesus had a living dependence on the Father, [see John 6:47] so believers in Jesus need to have a living dependence on him.

John 6:47 (NKJV)
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

(He who believes, not he who has fallen away, he who no longer believes, 'Most Assuredly' Jesus says)

They cannot bear fruit without being connected to the vine.

We cannot bear fruit, or remain in the vine unless Jesus is in us, unless we abide in Him and He in us.

Therefore, it is essential that they completely trust Jesus, or they will not be connected to the source of life. [John 15:6]

John 6:53-58 (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

For a person who has fallen away from our Lord, he no longer abides in Him so Jesus cannot abide in the person.

The person who was believed but now does not no longer abides in Christ, he/she 'no longer eats My flesh and drinks My blood', says Jesus, he/she is no longer fruitful and is pruned from the vine, 'cut off' from the life giving source!

John 15:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Well done my friend. I really like your complete thoughts and Scriptures on this subject. You are absolutely right in your presentation. John 15 with the Vine and Branches is one of my favorite portions of Scripture. Thank you for bringing this forward for our consideration because it is vital for this discussion.

Aside from the Elect of God, who will not depart from their faith in the Vine Christ Jesus. There is a second class of Believers, IMO, who come to believe in Jesus the Son of God. The Truth is, God is not willing that any person would perish and be absent from our loving Creator for all eternity. There is in my theology, a "General Call of the Gospel" that goes out all over the world by wonderful Missionaries and Evangelists who appeal to the masses, the Gospel.

Of all those who make a profession of faith, you and I know that not all remain faithful branches to the Vine. These are the ones, that after some pruning, rebel against that pruning and as you have posted....6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Thank you again for a truthful, from your heart post on your Scriptural findings. I delight in studying your instructions to me and others. I respect and honor your position as a fellow Brother, may our blessed Holy Spirit fill you with Love, Peace, and Joy.

 

[B-A-C]

You get unborn by dying.

The natural man is born of a natural birth,... and dies a "natural" death.
The spiritual man is born of a spiritual birth,... but is just as capable of dying a spiritual death.

We can be born... we can die.
We can be born again... we can die again.

 

[RJ]

Ha, ha! Bless you're old bearded puss. Hey, when you and I stop learning new tricks, they'll have to put us in the ground. You know that you're my favorite person in "Talk Jesus" I hope. There is something wonderful about your spirit. There is something special that God has placed in your heart and spirit that is uncommon in the human realm. I want you to know that I treasure our friendship, and will really enjoy meeting you in Glory. We can sit on a park bench, by the Crystal sea and share all the "new tricks" that we learned in this life.........Can't wait......Love You!

A kindred spirit is a blessing! Though it is impossible for us to be right all the time, it is another of God's fine gifts that we are lead in the same direction of truth. With all the different ideas about things like :Born Again", Forgiveness, Works, Salvation, Predestination, Election and much more, we are yoked together by the simplest of these: that in the end, it is by God's grace alone and that it has been all of him and none of us.
I know, in the span of physical time, it will be soon that we will be together at a special place of no impossibilities and we will seeing this very moment clearly. Until then and , though I suspect many here would disagree with your comments about me, thank you for your kind words and we will remain friends and brothers forever!
Like the Bible says: " And now these three remain, faith, hope and Love and, of these, love is the greatest". Without faith, there is no hope and without these there is no true love and love is the greatest because it is the only one we share now and will take with us to that special place.
God Bless

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We are not talking about a human, or, fleshly birth, we are talking about a Spiritual birth!! How can anyone fathom, this side of Glory, what happens in the Spiritual realm. We are "born of the Spirit" therefore if that birth is to be reversed, it must be done by the Spirit of God. If Jesus commits Himself....

That is close to what I see.

Spirit is reality.
Living in a body is a dream that contains little slivers of the reality that comes from above.

The most important law:
Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Eternal life "IS" knowing God and the "ONE" that he sent.
The truth is one.
To love/worship the Lord your God in spirit and in truth is to stop divining/dividing and simply believe we are one.
That's why you must forgive your neighbor or you are not forgiven.
If you judge other you are judging yourself and your creator.
The law is really just the truth that God sees.

The new birth is into the world of "one".

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Do you live in a human body or the "one" real true body which is a spiritual body and not separate from God.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Once saved Always saved???

So what happens to a person who was saved and falls back into the world and flesh and commits murder, or multiple murders?

What about a person who was saved and falls away into the world and flesh and commits sexual abuse over and over again?

What about a person who was saved and falls away and steals over and over again?

Are they still saved?

They are not Abiding in Christ, will they not be pruned from the Vine?

God loves the sinner but... He hates the SIN!

 

[B-A-C]

Once saved Always saved???

So what happens to a person who was saved and falls back into the world and flesh and commits murder, or multiple murders?

According to the Calvinists... they were simply never saved in the first place.

 

[B-A-C]

I am loathe to start a new thread (or even continue OSAS discussions in this thread).
If I'm not mistaken, at least 7 (possibly more) threads have been closed here on TJ
in the last 8 months or so because of heated OSAS discussions.

Some of these have been dedicated OSAS threads created for that specific purpose.
But many of them were originally about other subjects that never seem to come to a close
because OSAS pops up and diverts the entire thread. (This thread about the law is a good example).
We have moved from the law into OSAS.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So what happens to a person who was saved and falls back into the world and flesh and commits murder, or multiple murders?

What about a person who was saved and falls away into the world and flesh and commits sexual abuse over and over again?

I suppose that if you saved yourself by your actions then you could just as easily unsave yourself by your actions.

That makes me glad that Jesus saved me.

 

[Brother-Paul]

We should all be able to discuss scripture without things getting 'heated' surely.

Brother Chopper is a blessing, he made his comments for OSAS, but then said thank you for bringing back to his attention John 15

Is this not what is required, open mindedness, let scripture speak for itself.

I did actually feel, it was sad the 'topic' had drifted so far 'off topic'.

The Topic being... The Law or not the Law that is the question?

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

I suppose that if you saved yourself by your actions then you could just as easily unsave yourself by your actions.

That makes me glad that Jesus saved me.

Who can save one's self brother? I think you refer to those who think they are saved. Whereas the discussion earlier was those who were saved and have fallen away, back to the way of the world and the devil.

Go to any funeral service and you would think 99% of people are saved and go to heaven!

God calls us we do not call Him. Jesus knocks on the door of our heart. All we do is suddenly hear the knock, ask Him in and repent. The Holy Spirit does the rest.

Thanks be to God, Father Son and Hoy Spirit.

I can't believe I am answering this. Back to Topic.

Pleas feel free to create a new topic if you think it is discussable.

 

[RJ]

The spiritual man is born of a spiritual birth,... but is just as capable of dying a spiritual death.

To be "born of a spiritual birth" means to have the Holy Spirit to indwell your body! With Christ in you, you ARE NOT capable of dying a spiritual death!

We can be born again... we can die again.

That is simply not true and not supported by scripture! Being born again, with God in you and, he says he will never leave you and Christ says he will never lose who God gives him.....how can you die spiritually or be be UN-born spiritually?

 

[RJ]

So what happens to a person who was saved and falls back into the world and flesh and commits murder, or multiple murders?
What about a person who was saved and falls away into the world and flesh and commits sexual abuse over and over again?
What about a person who was saved and falls away and steals over and over again?

• God never aid we would be sinless, in fact, he said we would have many trials and tribulations.
• For the believer God says he will never leave you and Christ says he will never lose who God gives him.....how do you fall away from that?
• Are all these sins willful, with out remorse / repentance....what makes you think these people were save in the first place?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Dear brother

As previously mentioned, OSAS is a subject that can run on and on.

With respect for the original topic, may I ask can a new thread be created to discuss OSAS, if you feel discussion should be further pursued.

Bless you my friend.

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, God always loves us. He loves even sinners. So God's love does not equal salvation.

Yes God is with us, yes He never leaves or forsakes us.
He didn't leave or forsake the Israelites that left Egypt. He was with them all the way.
He fed them, clothed them, protected them.... but that doesn't mean they all made it to the promised land.

Jesus was with Judas. He didn't leave him or forsake him. He fed him along with the other apostles.
He gave him power to heal the sick and raise the dead along with the other apostles.
He saved Judas from the storm in the boat along with the other apostles. Jesus never left Judas or forsook him.
But did Judas forsake Jesus. Did the Jews forsake God?

Just because God is with you not equal salvation.

 

[Chopper]

Once saved Always saved???

So what happens to a person who was saved and falls back into the world and flesh and commits murder, or multiple murders?

What about a person who was saved and falls away into the world and flesh and commits sexual abuse over and over again?

What about a person who was saved and falls away and steals over and over again?

Are they still saved?

They are not Abiding in Christ, will they not be pruned from the Vine?

God loves the sinner but... He hates the SIN!

You'll find my answer in post # 123. Thank you.

 

[RJ]

Dear brother

As previously mentioned, OSAS is a subject that can run on and on.

With respect for the original topic, may I ask can a new thread be created to discuss OSAS, if you feel discussion should be further pursued.

Bless you my friend.

Shalom

You asked the questions, we just simply answered them!

 

[RJ]

Just because God is with you not equal salvation.

Of course God with you and God in you can be two different things.
Talking to believers, God in you meaning saved, he would never leave them nor, is there anything written that he would!

 

[amadeus2]

Those in Adam are dead,all stillborn who have never seen the light of the real day.
Jesus said to a certain man,"let the dead bury their dead".

The new birth is not a regeneration of the old body of death it is a new creature completely.
Jesus is firstborn into life.

Living and life are vastly different things,one is running out of life and the other is always pouring out life into everything it touches.
Living in a physical body is death row,life in the spirit is eternal.

In the new life there is neither male nor female,neither Jew nor Greek.
The word person comes from persona which means a false face.
In the spirit we are one,many is legion,a legion of false faces.
If you are born of God you are one not the many.

If I am understanding you correctly then it would seem that we are in agreement.