The Two Witnesses? Dreams and Visions?

[B-A-C]

Jesus calls us to do this in remembrance of him he never said it was symbols of him and he says at the table he says quite clearly this is my body this is my blood

He clearly says the bread is His body, he said the cup was His blood. He didn't tear off part of His body so they could eat it. He didn't cut Himself and bleed into the cup.
He didn't say they were symbols because it was obvious, it wasn't His real body and real blood.

 

[Bill]

He clearly says the bread is His body, he said the cup was His blood. He didn't tear off part of His body so they could eat it. He didn't cut Himself and bleed into the cup.
He didn't say they were symbols because it was obvious, it wasn't His real body and real blood.

I suppose it would be no more than the life-giving water that came from The Rock.

 

[Bill]

He clearly says the bread is His body, he said the cup was His blood. He didn't tear off part of His body so they could eat it. He didn't cut Himself and bleed into the cup.
He didn't say they were symbols because it was obvious, it wasn't His real body and real blood.

Like I said there are some things that cannot be explained

Because if we start going down the same road with symbols and what is real and what is not real then all we are doing is lessening white jesus is the only be symbols Czarface becomes a symbol in our this becomes a symbol in the fact that Jesus is the vine is only a symbol and that Jesus is the living water is only a symbol and has no real value to it the fact is that Jesus is the vine in Jesus's the life-giving water and Jesus is the bread and Jesus is the blood and so on and so on and so on and if we try to listen all of that stuff just because we can't comprehend it I think it is that we are the issue that we have faith that has to grow into understanding God we may not understand God at this present time but there is something more than just what we what we understand

 

[Brad Huber]

Do you believe that when Jesus was hosting the last supper, the disciples actually physically ate His flesh and drank His blood? Or were they eating a "symbol" of His flesh and blood?

I dont know, I can only guess. My guess would be that either that time was symbolic, since the death and resurrection had not yet occured, or.... it was really His flesh and blood, but I dont doubt that the disciples didnt chop up Jesus and devour him. But it is possible that Jesus changed the wine and bread into something more than just wine and bread. Something like mana from heaven, another heavenly not normal bread.

I would say the onus here, is to prove any of the disciples actually physically ate part of Jesus like cannibals, or actually drank His blood like vampires.
Also there was no priest present at this supper. Only Jesus the high priest. Why does that matter?

Dont you see, that was exactly what the disciples who left Jesus thought. As to the priest, it may be his faith that allows the conversion, since a lot of the parishioners were probably weak of faith, but a priest is not necessary, anyone with faith can cause it to happen, if thats what happens.

Jesus only had to be sacrificed once.

No disagreement there. Has nothing to do with the point, its being done miraculously, Jesus is not being killed and cannibalized.

Jesus said do this "in remembrance" of Me. He never said keep sacrificing Me over and over again. Why does the RCC even have priests. The same reason the Jews of the OT did.

Do what? Something symbolic or the miraculous? Do you believe in miracles? Do what in remembrance of Him? No sacrificing over and over. Its just in remembrance. Priests... well they put too much power in their hands because they dont "need" them, except for lack of faith in the parishioners.

The priest were the ones who did the sacrifices. Priests are the ones who do "Mass" today for the same reason. They are sacrificing Jesus over and over again.
You can't have a sacrifice without blood. But they don't believe this is symbolic blood like the disciples partook of in the upper room. They believe it literally becomes Jesus's blood.

I guess Jesus's sacrifice "once for all" wasn't good enough?

Dont be silly, of course His sacrifice was good enough. Cant Jesus transform one thing into another, sorta like the water into wine in His first miracle.
Then why is everyones faith so weak to think He cant do this also?

My replies are in orange, at least I think so.

 

[Bill]

He clearly says the bread is His body, he said the cup was His blood. He didn't tear off part of His body so they could eat it. He didn't cut Himself and bleed into the cup.
He didn't say they were symbols because it was obvious, it wasn't His real body and real blood.

I believe that it was the body and blood of Jesus that looked and tasted like Bread and Wine

 

[twcstp111]

What I can see now is that words are dead without love, just as are works without faith.

In the first place, in the beginning, The Word comes from a place of Love--Faith without works is dead; the same can be said of Words without Love--these too are dead.

So we KNOW that Love abides in The Word and The Word abides in Love; what then is life without love? Dead.

What then, is faith? Except it were Love, it could be nothing else; Love is Faith, and Faith is Love.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brad Huber

I cannot agree Brad

Luke 22:17-20 (NKJV)
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body [the bread] which is given for you; do this [take the 'bread' and break it] n remembrance of Me."

Paul said...
1 Corinthians 11:23-34 (NKJV)
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body [the bread] which is broken for you; do this [break bread] in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, [the wine] in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

The bread and wine are not Christ's body and blood, they are symbols, to remind us, to do in remembrance of Him, until His return.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

When Jesus did the blessing at the table he said this is my body and this is my blood he did not say this is a symbol of my body in this is a symbol of My Blood

So I think that you need to look at it in the perspective of what the scripture States and not what you believe on behalf of the Catholics.

Because they are doing exactly what the scripture says

Bill

Read post #216 save me re-typing it here.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Shall I follow the words that you deem are correct or should I follow what the scripture States as being what is said.

Follow the words I stated in post #216 Bill, they are 'from scripture'

 

[Brad Huber]

I suppose it would be no more than the life-giving water that came from The Rock.

@Brad Huber

I cannot agree Brad

Luke 22:17-20 (NKJV)
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body [the bread] which is given for you; do this [take the 'bread' and break it] n remembrance of Me."

Paul said...
1 Corinthians 11:23-34 (NKJV)
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body [the bread] which is broken for you; do this [break bread] in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, [the wine] in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

The bread and wine are not Christ's body and blood, they are symbols, to remind us, to do in remembrance of Him, until His return.

Shalom

Its not important that you believe it. What is important is the truth, and again, its not a sure thing that its only symbolic. Thats simply a taught thing, nowhere in scripture does it say that its symbolic. Thats simply whats assumed because of the evil of cannabilism, but it wasnt cannibalism, you leave the miraculous out.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Another area besides the body in the blood or the bread and the wine that needs to be looked at is also the fact that it is written in the scripture which is the word of God we're Mary says from this day forward all nations will call me blessed now we find that the Catholics refer to Mary as the Blessed Mother so when we look at that many Christians condemn the Catholics because they say that they worship Mary and yet they are doing exactly what the scripture says

Luke 1:46-55 (NKJV)
46 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones, And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things, And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel, In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and to his seed forever."

The above is exactly what was said Bill, but notice the full stop, that is exactly where she stopped, it is exactly where we should stop.

All generations do call her blessed, the blessed Virgin Mary. But the wise do not bow to graven images of Mary or Jesus, or anyone else.

Catholics attribute to Mary both physical (altars, bowing down, feasts, locations ) and spiritual (adoration, devotion to, entrust to, glory due to, looking to, prayer to, worship of) aspects of worship. But, God warns people not to fall into idolatry and false worship and to avoid such practices because they lead to sin. Idol worship Bill!

Exodus 20:4-5 (NKJV)
4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me

 

[Brother-Paul]

Its not important that you believe it. What is important is the truth, and again, its not a sure thing that its only symbolic. Thats simply a taught thing, nowhere in scripture does it say that its symbolic.

It doesn't need to Brad, scripture is clear...

Luke 22:17-20 (NKJV)
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, [He gave them the broken bread] saying,
"This is My body [note: the bread] which is given for you; do this [take the 'bread' and break it] in remembrance of Me."

They are symbols by what is said in these verses and others quoted.

Jesus didn't break his body, his body was broken on the cross, his blood was shed on the cross, NOT in the upper room. In the upper room He gave an example with instructions, a very clear example with very clear instructions.

 

[Brother-Paul]

When Jesus did the blessing at the table he said this is my body and this is my blood he did not say this is a symbol of my body in this is a symbol of My Blood

Bill you are taking part of what said again.

Luke 22:17-20 (NKJV)
Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine [wine] until the kingdom of God comes."
And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, [He broke the bread] and gave it [The broken bread] to them, saying, "This [the broken bread] is My body which is given for you; do this [take the 'bread' and break it] in remembrance of Me."

You take part and say 'he said this is my body and this is my blood he did not say this is a symbol of my body in this is a symbol of My Blood'

But first He took the cup of wine, which represents Christs blood, therefore a symbol, He didn't have to say it is a symbol, He has already suggested that by His actions and words.

 

[Brad Huber]

It doesn't need to Brad, scripture is clear...

Luke 22:17-20 (NKJV)
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, [He gave them the broken bread] saying,
"This is My body [note: the bread] which is given for you; do this [take the 'bread' and break it] in remembrance of Me."

They are symbols by what is said in these verses and others quoted.

Jesus didn't break his body, his body was broken on the cross, his blood was shed on the cross, NOT in the upper room. In the upper room He gave an example with instructions, a very clear example with very clear instructions.

Yes, it is clear.... you are assuming thats what its saying, because you have been taught so. You use the word "it" as if that explains it (not meant to be joking, although it was funny when I read it), and all that it explains is that it is the bread, it doesnt make any assumptions about the bread, simply that it is. How does that support your assumption?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes, it is clear.... you are assuming thats what its saying, because you have been taught so. You use the word "it" as if that explains it (not meant to be joking, although it was funny when I read it), and all that it explains is that it is the bread, it doesnt make any assumptions about the bread, simply that it is. How does that support your assumption?

Not an assumption Brad, bread and wine are bread and wine, broken is broken.

It was in the upper room, before Christ's body was broken on the cross.

Do this, take bread, break it, take the wine drink it, in remembrance of me.

We are not cannibals, Jesus would never say he would want us to be cannibals, that was why we are given bread and wine, as symbols of his body and blood, to take, eat, drink, in remembrance of what Jesus did for us.

Our Lord had a wonderful way of taking the basic things is life and using them to tell us of heaven, of Himself, of the Father. Here he uses bread and wine to represent, his body and blood, in a most wonderful way. Yet with his wonderful way of putting things, the similes, the truth cannot be seen and some people look for more. Unless we become like little children,who would understand without question, some things will be hidden from us.

Shalom

 

[Brad Huber]

Not an assumption Brad, bread and wine are bread and wine, broken is broken.

It was in the upper room, before Christ's body was broken on the cross.

Do this, take bread, break it, take the wine drink it, in remembrance of me.

We are not cannibals, Jesus would never say he would want us to be cannibals, that was why we are given bread and wine, as symbols of his body and blood, to take, eat, drink, in remembrance of what Jesus did for us.

Our Lord had a wonderful way of taking the basic things is life and using them to tell us of heaven, of Himself, of the Father. Here he uses bread and wine to represent, his body and blood, in a most wonderful way. Yet with his wonderful way of putting things, the similes, the truth cannot be seen and some people look for more. Unless we become like little children,who would understand without question, some things will be hidden from us.

Shalom

Again with the cannibal remarks, it must be the reason why you cant see it. Anyone associating it with cannibalism would of course agree with you, as did the disciples who turned away from Jesus. I wont argue it with you, I can see the walls in front of you. Blessings to you, may the Lord open your eyes, because I surely wont.

 

[Bill]

What I can see now is that words are dead without love, just as are works without faith.

In the first place, in the beginning, The Word comes from a place of Love--Faith without works is dead; the same can be said of Words without Love--these too are dead.

So we KNOW that Love abides in The Word and The Word abides in Love; what then is life without love? Dead.

What then, is faith? Except it were Love, it could be nothing else; Love is Faith, and Faith is Love.

Well said

 

[Bill]

Luke 1:46-55 (NKJV)
46 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones, And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things, And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel, In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and to his seed forever."

The above is exactly what was said Bill, but notice the full stop, that is exactly where she stopped, it is exactly where we should stop.

All generations do call her blessed, the blessed Virgin Mary. But the wise do not bow to graven images of Mary or Jesus, or anyone else.

Catholics attribute to Mary both physical (altars, bowing down, feasts, locations ) and spiritual (adoration, devotion to, entrust to, glory due to, looking to, prayer to, worship of) aspects of worship. But, God warns people not to fall into idolatry and false worship and to avoid such practices because they lead to sin. Idol worship Bill!

Exodus 20:4-5 (NKJV)
4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me

I have a question for you , in reguards to what Mary said and the fact they are in the Scripture .

Who is it that is speaking ? Mary or Jesus .

 

[Sue D.]

I've been following these comments.

Brother-Paul is very correct. Symbolism.

Compare this to being baptized by immersion. It is symbolizes of that the person being baptized believes the Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again bodily. The person being baptized is not expected to physically die on a cross - be buried- and rise again just like Jesus Christ did. It IS symbolic of what we believe that Jesus Christ did on the cross - being buried and rising again the 3rd day. We are brought back up out of the water -- the grave -- to show the new spiritual life we now have In Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

Again with the cannibal remarks, it must be the reason why you cant see it. Anyone associating it with cannibalism would of course agree with you, as did the disciples who turned away from Jesus. I wont argue it with you, I can see the walls in front of you. Blessings to you, may the Lord open your eyes, because I surely wont.

There are no eyes that Need to be opened by the Lord. And there are no 'walls' in front of us To be seen.