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Me too!!! In the 3 persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!
Trinitarians Godheadians, Can Their Translations Defend The Trinity Doctrine Of Trinity Faith System
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Butch5
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It did. The Father is a literal person, living entity. The Son is a literal person. So, what is being spoken of figuratively?
Butch5
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That’s 3 not one. I hold to what the apostle Paul said. To us there is one God, the Father.
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What is spoken of figuratively is the entire discourse.
Butch5
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The discourse was figuratively the Father? None of what Jesus said there was literal?
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Is that what you are saying?
Butch5
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No, that's what I'm asking. You said the entire discourse was figurative
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And you are saying it's about the Father being the Holy Spirit.
Butch5
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I said the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth, or Holy Spirit, is figurative language speaking about the Father.
Jesus is called the Son of God. Who is His father?
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So the Holy Spirit and the Father are the same, at the same time?
So, Jesus is Devine then?
Butch5
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The Spirit is a limited manifesting of the Father
Jesus is divine. He is the Son of God. God is divine thus His Son is Divine.
Jesus is called the Son of God. Who is His father?
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Where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a limited manifesting of the Father?
Who is the Father of Jesus? Figuratively you mean?
Butch5
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It doesn't say that. Jesus, speaking of the Spirit, said He was speaking figuratively of the Father. So, in some way the Spirit is the Father. We can look at other Scripture passages to see in what way that is.
We call God the Father, the Father, because He is the Father of Jesus, correct?
Luke recorded this.
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Lk 1:26–35.
Mary was told that she would conceive and bring forth a Son that would be called the "Son of the Highest". Then the angle tells her that the Holy Spirit, also called, the power of the Highest, will come upon her and that Holy One who is born will be called the Son of the Highest. If the Holy Spirit or the power of the Highest isn't of the Father, then the Father can't be Jesus' Father. Then Jesus wouldn't be the Son of the Highest. If, as many claimed, the Holy Spirit is a third person, then it is He that is the Father of Jesus and not God the Father. The passage makes it clear that the conception was via the Holy Spirit or the power of the Highest. So, whoever the Holy Spirit or power of the Highest is of, that one is the Father of Jesus.
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So, the Holy Spirit is God? Which I have no issue with, because I believe this to be true as well.
However, I think this is where we diverge. You believe that the Holy Spirit is the Father at the same time, but is only a limited version of Him. Which there is no Scripture basis for, unless you care to share it?
I have no problem with Jesus being the Son of God and so Devine. I am assuming here, but you believe that the God part of Jesus did not preexist, while I believe He did?
You do not believe in the theophany or Christophany do you or do you?
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It's not that I beleive the Father is the Spirit at the same time. The Spirit or the Breath of the Father is the Father. The Spirit or Breath of the Father is sometimes exhibited as power as we saw with the passage from Luke. Other times it is exhibited as the Father Himself as in the case where Jesus said the Father is in me. How was the Father in Him? He was baptized with the Spirit. How does the Father dwell with the believer? Through the Spirit.
In the Gospels we see Jesus challenged about the miracles He did. He said it was the Father in Him doing the works. We also see passages saying He did the works by the Holy Spirt. Again, that's the Father in Him. We see things like this all through Scripture. I don't see anything in Scripture that would suggest the Holy Breath is a third person. If it's a third person why doesn't He have a name? The Father Has a name, the Son has a a name. Why would He be called the breath of God? That implies ownership. If He's owned by God How can He be God? These are the kinds of problems that lead me to forgo the doctrine. I could list a bunch of issues like this. Jesus said no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father. How is it that the third person doesn't know either the Father or the Son? There are just so many things like this that I have to conclude the doctrine isn’t valid. When I look at early history I don't see it . I had to conclude that it's just not there.
I do believe Jesus preexisting. Paul said, "being in the form of God He emptied Himself." Thus He was in the form of God before the incarnation.
I beleive in both, the theophany and Christophany.
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Its not an arbitrary assertion lol. When scripture says 'all' have sinned, it is not referring to babies. It should be a given that babies don't sin. Its like a 'duh' statement.
Gen 3:22 explains that humans, angels and God are the only three creations in a bracket that can grasp what is good and evil.
So, when you say there are other examples of beings that don't sin, you are simply being elusive. Its actually a very stupid statement. Sure, a tree, an animal and a baby that can't even talk, won't sin. But Jesus was a 30 plus year old man. Maybe He identified as a tree and is exempt....
The fact that Jesus was in the flesh and did not sin, proves deity. Jesus not sinning is Christianity 101. A foundational fact of the faith. He was a perfect sacrifice. You have clearly not meditated on this.
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The Holy Spirit has many names found throughout Scripture. So, does God the Father, and the God the Son.
I am sure if you just say God, it will be okay with any of the 3.
So, though you will not call it the Trinity, you do believe as I do in God, in which, a Hierarchy exist as in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?
I also believe in both, the theophany and Christophany.
I thank you for your replies and great patience.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Butch5
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Hi Nick, actually our beliefs are quite different. I believe that God the Father is God almighty. He has no equal. Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son. The first born of creation. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says, "God the Holy Spirit". The Holy Wind, Breath, or figuratively, Spirit, is a manifestation of God's presence or power. I don't believe three coequal, coeternal, persons. I believe there are two persons, the Father and the Son, that's all. I beleive the Father alone is God, in the sense of ultimate authority. Jesus is called God in a few places. The word God simply means a ruler or deity that rules over a dominion. The Father is the ultimate ruler as Paul explains in 2Timothy 6. Jesus will rule in His Kingdom when He returns. But He is always subordinate to the Father. The Father is eternal. Jesus was begotten of the Father as the first born of creation.
Butch5
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Yes, it is an arbitrary statement. One you've given no evidence for. Simply stating something doesn't mean it's true.
Once again you're moving the goal posts. First you stated that being sinless makes one deity. I suggested that babies are sinless and not deity. Then you moved the goal posts by saying one had to be sinless and had to be tempted. This is an attempt to disqualify evidence that refutes your statement, the "No True Scottsman" fallacy. I then posted the words from James saying that God cannot be tempted with evil. If Jesus is God He cannot be tempted to sin. This eliminates your having moved goal posts and puts us back at the original statement, that being sinless makes one deity. To which I again suggest that babies are sinless but they are not deity. Conclusion, being sinless doesn't make one deity. If it did then the babies would be deity. So, the argument is refuted unless you're willing to accept that babies are deity. This shows there's an error in this argument. It's not valid. You should reject it or find out where the error is.
Is God a creation? Sorry, I couldn't resist.
It's not being elusive and it's not a stupid statement. What it is, is a statement showing your inconsistent statements. You say babies don't sin in one breath and in the next you say all have sinned. Well, babies are a part of all people. You made no attempt to show why babies would be excepted from the all who have sinned. We have two options. Either babies have sinned or, "all have sinned", is general statement that allows for exceptions, of which babies would be one. If it's a general statement that allows for exceptions you need to explain how that works. You can't just say it's a "duh" moment.
Again, it does not prove it. The premise is a fallacy know as the "Non-Sequitur". That means it doesn't follow. Saying, being sinless makes one deity, doesn't follow. There's no logical connection between the two. I could say being tall makes one a millionaire. That’s a "Non Sequitur. There's no logical connection between being tall and making one a millionaire.
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You truly make me chuckle. I would argue that one's IQ is below zero if they use babies as an example of someone saying no to sin / being sinless. When the statement ''Jesus was without sin'' is made, it is a given that He be an adult tempted by sin. Babies cannot be judged as they are babies. A tree cannot be judged as it is a tree. A dog cannot be judged as it is a dog. An adult human, an angel and God, can be judged as they have IQ and accountability.
You are dancing around this fact.
Then, you make a decent point ''God cannot be tempted''. Correct, God cannot sin. God does not sin. Jesus, did not sin....
That God became flesh and opened Himself up to temptation for our sake, is a separate fact and topic. We can discuss it after you grasp Jesus not sinning = deity.
Please see post 11 here Slaves to Sin?.
Being tall is a not a comparative example.
That only God cannot sin is simply a fact. A better example would be 1 + 1 = 2. 2 - 1 = 1.
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