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Trinity Verse Removed?

You answered this yourself.



I don't think you should leave these forums.
He told you he would, and he has always been a man of his word. He is used to people rejecting him and his relationship to God due to his not being sure about the Trinity. I guess you have made TJ more pure with him gone.
 
He told you he would, and he has always been a man of his word. He is used to people rejecting him and his relationship to God due to his not being sure about the Trinity. I guess you have made TJ more pure with him gone.

Ouch.

I assure you that wasn't the intent. I meant it when I asked him to stay.

The point was, don't teach a Muslim (or anyone else) that we believe in a non-triune God. He was not speaking for the vast majority.
 
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
The only problem with this thinking is that when the Holy Spirit comes he will NOT speak on his own, (John 16:13) but only what he hears. Jesus said he only speaks what he hears his Father say. (John 12:49) When the Father speaks, so does the Son, and so does the Holy Spirit. Father, Son, Holy Spirit all in unison.
 
He told you he would, and he has always been a man of his word. He is used to people rejecting him and his relationship to God due to his not being sure about the Trinity. I guess you have made TJ more pure with him gone.
Well time has gone by and much has happened in other places although certainly not enough. Nevertheless I am back for whatever it is worth.
Give God the glory!
 
Ouch.

I assure you that wasn't the intent. I meant it when I asked him to stay.

The point was, don't teach a Muslim (or anyone else) that we believe in a non-triune God. He was not speaking for the vast majority.
I don't ever look to speak for the majority. Rather I speak for myself and God. To make you [and others?] happy I will attempt to refrain from speaking, if God permits, when to do so would relate to my unwillingness to embrace the trinity.

I don't suppose Jesus ever did this. That is He never refrained from saying something simply to spare another's feelings, at least, not unless the Father wanted Him to hold back. Of course, Jesus was always on His Father's side. That is also where I want to always be.
 
Believing in the deity of Jesus is required for salvation. There are people that don't agree.
But the Nicene creed is the accepted view by the "vast" majority of mainstream Christianity.

Most denominations believe that if you don't believe in the deity of Jesus, you aren't saved.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

1Jn 5:20; And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Matt 1:20; But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
1 Jn 4:15; Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

There's not one verse that says you must believe in the Trinity or deity of Christ to be saved. Jesus is the Son of God. Never is he called God the son.

1 John 5:7-8 have nothing to do with a trinity. The three bear record and that's all the passage is saying.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I have no problem believing Jesus is God, only that the Father is greater and since Jesus said the Father is greater, I believe him.
 
Never is he called God the son.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

There's not one verse that says you must believe in the Trinity or deity of Christ to be saved

Hmmm.. would you bet your salvation on that? I know of at least two that say if you don't believe it, it the spirit of the anti-christ.
 
Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Hmmm.. would you bet your salvation on that? I know of at least two that say if you don't believe it, it the spirit of the anti-christ.

Neither of those verses condemn anyone for not believing Jesus is or is not God. Neither do any of those verses claim Jesus is EQUAL to God the Father.

Go ahead and show me ONE verse that says you must believe Jesus is God to be saved. I can quote about a half dozen showing Jesus is inferior to God the Father.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom...

The words "he saith" were added to Hebrews 1:8 and would better be understood like this...

Yet the advantage of the son is THY THRONE (God's Throne) Oh God and is for ever and ever....

You quoted 2 Peter 1:1 and I don't know what translation that is but it's incorrect...

You quoted...

2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

The word OUR (God) is in the original text but misplaced in the version you quoted.


It should read...

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

You quoted Titus 2:13...

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

KJV...

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The word AND shows a distinction between the great God (the Father) and our SAVIOR JESUS Christ.
That's what happens when Trinitarians translate the original text or the Latin text. They fabricate the trinity into it.

Look at this is any good interlinear and you'll see the same thing I'm showing you.

You should also look at JUST what 1 John says about the anti-Christ. Show me which one says you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved...

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 
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Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus!
Just need to add these words of caution.

Let's not put God & Jesus into competition against each other!!!!
This is how the World reacts! We are not of the World!!!!
We are Citizens of the Kingdom of God and obedient to our King who reigns!!!

Those words are to you as a Brother in Christ Jesus.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

As a Moderator.
I will shut this thread down in a heart beat if this is what starts happening!!!
Be Warned!

Moderator
Nick
<><
 
Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus!
Just need to add these words of caution.

Let's not put God & Jesus into competition against each other!!!!
This is how the World reacts! We are not of the World!!!!
We are Citizens of the Kingdom of God and obedient to our King who reigns!!!

Those words are to you as a Brother in Christ Jesus.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

As a Moderator.
I will shut this thread down in a heart beat if this is what starts happening!!!
Be Warned!

Moderator
Nick
<><
I don't get it. We're having a civil discussion about the trinity. Nobody is quote, "putting God & Jesus into competition against each other." We are discussing the trinity and some of the verses that pertain to it, and some of the way different bible versions translate key verses. If this is that much of a sore spot with you I don't have to be here.

I don't get your complaint?
 
Greetings jim,

I don't get it. We're having a civil discussion about the trinity. Nobody is quote, "putting God & Jesus into competition against each other." We are discussing the trinity and some of the verses that pertain to it, and some of the way different bible versions translate key verses. If this is that much of a sore spot with you I don't have to be here.

I don't get your complaint?

it's probably better that you voice these comments in private message to Nick and/or other Moderators.

You are new here and I think you will find that our brother Nick has the best interests of the Lord here and that includes you and all of us.
Comments like that, if you reflect on it a little are not all that pleasant.

You could have simply continued your discussion and kept what Nick said under your hat as a safety net, so to speak, for none of us are so good as to not need to watch our step, even in internet forums.

remember (you and everyone) Post in Peace.


Bless you ....><>
 
it's probably better that you voice these comments in private message to Nick and/or other Moderators.

You are new here and I think you will find that our brother Nick has the best interests of the Lord here and that includes you and all of us.
Comments like that, if you reflect on it a little are not all that pleasant.

You could have simply continued your discussion and kept what Nick said under your hat as a safety net, so to speak, for none of us are so good as to not need to watch our step, even in internet forums.

remember (you and everyone) Post in Peace.

I understand. I've seldom used the PM option on forums I've been on over the years and forgot to use it. Is that the same as a 'conversation?"

I'm not here to push my non-trinitarian beliefs but do like to post how I view it.

The sad thing is that it has become such a divisive doctrine to the point of well meaning Christians taking verses out of context and accusing non-trinitarians of NOT being a Christian and condemning their own brothers and sisters over it. Most Christians don't even know how the doctrine originated or that it came out of Catholicism with pagan roots because of Constantine.

The Trinity doctrine is one of the easiest doctrines to debunk, but people refuse to accept it because of the condemnation people pass to others in the faith for denying it.

I've always said,

"People put others down and condemn one another because that's how they build themselves up."
 
Greetings Jim,

yes, the 'Conversation' part is the same as a PM.

And yes, I realise the huge holes we dig ourselves and each other so often, fighting over things that man has put together and relentlessly bashing each other over the head with a Bible!

We are meant to shine like lights so the world can see.
Personally, that's one reason I don't usually get too involved in disputes over trinity.


Bless you ....><>
 
Good morning Black Sheep;

My intent is not to propone a pointless discussion by adding fuel to the fire. I've dealt with a number of Oneness (modalist) believers in the past fifteen years. Modalism was begun by a monk named Sabellius in 215 BC. He felt the belief in a triune God was a construct of three separate gods. Thus, the Son and Holy Spirit were temporary modes. Modern day Oneness have refined it to mean that God can do all three at once. While they had quoted a number of verses to support their POV. my basic feeling was their use of Scripture to define God seemed lacking. When vieiwed as a whole, their scriptures achieved the opposite of what they intended despite their efforts.

Despite that difficulty, there was no disagreement that there is one God, period. And, Jesus was the spotless Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Isaiah 9:6 says one will be born who will be called the might God, the Prince of peace, wonderful, etc. Jesus did a reading in a temple on one occasion making himself equal to God by declaring he existed before Abraham using a term the priests were familiar with: before Abraham, I AM. If Jesus was God in the flesh, did God die a mortal? The triune concept of God says that His Son did, who was also his image and Word. Then there is the Holy Spirit who shall teach us all things. Is that God performing another role? Or, is there really such a thing as the Holy Spirit?

I agree that there exists a core of people who build themselves up by tearing everyone else down. That isn't the intent here. As Paul says, we perceive spiritual things as if we're looking through a dark glass, sunglasses at midnight, so to speak. By all means, state your case and I'm willing to agree to disagree on that point. Jesus being our Redeemer is the focal point of the group and as long as we agree on that, we're all good to go. Cheers, John. Phil 4:8
 
Isaiah 9:6 says one will be born who will be called the might God, the Prince of peace, wonderful, etc.

I say Jesus is God but that God is greater because Jesus said the Father is greater. He also said he didn't know the day or hour of his return. If Jesus was 100% God and 100% man like trinitarians teach, Jesus would know the day and hour of his return confirming again that they are not co-equal. Isaiah 9:6 confirms to me that Jesus is the mighty God, the Father is Almighty God.
Jesus did a reading in a temple on one occasion making himself equal to God by declaring he existed before Abraham using a term the priests were familiar with: before Abraham, I AM.
John 8:58 doesn't indicate Jesus made himself equal to God. It indicates Jesus existed before Abraham.

John also quotes what the Jews said about Jesus...Note: What the Jews said and perceived about Jesus....

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phl. 2:6...Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Trinitarians can't even agree what the word 'form' means. It's the word "morphe" and I believe like many others that it refers to being equal in appearance and glory. NOT co-equal in power, knowledge, and stature.
If Jesus was God in the flesh, did God die a mortal? The triune concept of God says that His Son did, who was also his image and Word.
There really is no trinitarian formula in the bible. Jesus is God only because they hare the same attributes and are of one mind. Jesus has the attributes of God, but God is greater in those attributes. They are TWO different beings.
Then there is the Holy Spirit who shall teach us all things. Is that God performing another role? Or, is there really such a thing as the Holy Spirit?
The holy spirit comes from the Throne of God's seven spirits. The holy spirit is God only as far as those 7 spirits ALSO possess the same attributes and mind of God, but God possess MORE of those attributes. The holy spirit can be angels, Jesus himself, etc. The Holy spirit comes from the 7 Spirits of God's....POWER...

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
 
Greetings,

You (as in, y'all) probably don't want me joining in here, too much, as you might see, as i often offer a little something from outside of the box, and I don't say so boasting but only to help you grasp where some things come from.

Jim, you mentioned that word morphe.
One thing always strikes me about these sort of discussions and that is that we all too often forget that we come at these often non-subject subjects like fish disputing their water tanks dimensions rather than fish swimming in the ocean.
Do we also forget the fact that we discuss this with a level of christianese language and understanding and forsake any possibility of the Lord providing, in His Body prepared, an interpreter for us, as we use, on top of the christianese, a tongue most awkward and blended in our cultural appreciation of time and events as we perceive them.

Morphe reminds me of meta-morphe(is) or however one spells it. It might be from Latin or something.
Does anyone know the difference between entomology and etymology?

what is metamorphism or metamorphose?
Back to metamorphosis..... look it up on your yonder search engine.

for those who can't or won't...

Latin metamorphōsis, from Greek, from metamorphoun, to transform : meta-, meta- + morphē, form.

n. Change of form or structure; transmutation or transformation.
n. A marked change in the form or function of a living body; a transformation resulting from development; specifically, in zoology, the course of alteration which an animal undergoes after its exclusion from the egg, and which modifies extensively the general form and life of the individual; particularly, in entomology, the transformations of a metabolous insect.
n. In chem., that chemical action by which a given compound is caused, by the presence of a peculiar substance, to resolve itself into two or more compounds, as sugar, by the presence of yeast, into alcohol and carbonic acid.
n. In botany, the various changes that are brought about in plant-organs, whereby they appear under changed or modified conditions, as when stamens are metamorphosed into petals, or stipules into leaves.
n. In music, either the same as variation (see variation, 9), or that extension or transformation of a theme or subject which often appears in modern music in the progress or development of an extended movement. From Beethoven onward the recognition of the essentially plastic nature of musical ideas (see idea, 9) has steadily advanced and constitutes one of the salient characteristics of recent composition.

n. The change of material of one kind into another through the agency of the living organism; metabolism.
n. A transformation, such as that of magic or by sorcery
n. A noticeable change in character, appearance, function or condition.
n. A change in the form and often habits of an animal after the embryonic stage during normal development. (e.g. the transformation of a caterpillar into a butterfly or a tadpole into a frog.)


so, I am not sure if you can see anything there but to me it is quite clearly written in all that the LORD God has made.

And then we go to the Book of Job, shall we?
Is it not God Who asks a few questions about Who Job might think He is and uses a few facts from His Creation to do so?

But, if you all prefer, keep God in a box and at least you can get all scientific and poke and prod and observe the concepts you have captured.


Bless you ....><>

and yes, Who is our Redeemer, What is His name?
and on that note... can anyone tell me what Jesus's name really is and what of the name we use (generally it is Jesus but some prefer to be more correct in their imaginations and use Yeshuah or similar... but tell me if you can, what and Who does He mean??) ....><>
------------------------
above referrence from metamorphosis - definition and meaning
 
But, if you all prefer, keep God in a box and at least you can get all scientific and poke and prod and observe the concepts you have captured.

I have no problem with anybody joining in, I actually welcome it. I've heard the "keep God in a box" dozens of times. AND...

The science of interpretation is a method of interpretation called a hermeneutic. Reading and studying the Word of God in the English is fine most of the time, but when it comes to contentious issues we need more. If we as Christians want to acquire truth, we need to utilize every good and reliable resource we can acquire it through a good and sensible hermeneutic. I have a list of about 10 things in my method of interpretation. Second to utilizing logic, common sense, and a willingness to change my mind, the lexicon's and an interlinear are at the top of my list.

The word INSPIRE means "God breathed or God spoke." When God spoke to his servants and prophets, He spoke to them in the same language they also spoke, read, and understood. When we desire to attain truth, we need to look at the language "God Spoke" in to His servants and Prophets.
 
Greetings Jim,

I have no problem with anybody joining in, I actually welcome it. I've heard the "keep God in a box" dozens of times. AND...

The science of interpretation is a method of interpretation called a hermeneutic. Reading and studying the Word of God in the English is fine most of the time, but when it comes to contentious issues we need more. If we as Christians want to acquire truth, we need to utilize every good and reliable resource we can acquire it through a good and sensible hermeneutic. I have a list of about 10 things in my method of interpretation. Second to utilizing logic, common sense, and a willingness to change my mind, the lexicon's and an interlinear are at the top of my list.

The word INSPIRE means "God breathed or God spoke." When God spoke to his servants and prophets, He spoke to them in the same language they also spoke, read, and understood. When we desire to attain truth, we need to look at the language "God Spoke" in to His servants and Prophets.

i was not singling you out. I also overlooked that you started this public thread.
Certainly no offence intended.
---------------------------------------------
Another way of looking at all this might be to consider another science?

That of mathematics.
God's mathemeatics are probably best considering we are dicussing Him, agreed?

How many members make up the body?
How many brides does the Bridegrom have?

somewhere, you and I and many others are called to His presense, Which we can only arrive at through His Son.

So, at the barest minimum I count four or five , but that is ridiculous because I also know that the saints referred to in Scripture must be added as well.

So is three really enough to make it all one?

================
another take might be that there is either or there is not. If one is the perfect digit and zero is the absence of a digit, then we can only ever have one as all other digits are multiples of one...
and this is remembering that if we were to be counting apples, only apples would be counted as digits.
So if there were oranges or plums in the basket we were counting, they would not amount to a digit. But, all the apples are as the first apple and therefore all are one.

So, if you had twenty five apples, it would be 25 in 1, much as we might have 3 in 1.

==================

As Jesus said,
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
AND
speaking to His Father, no less,
I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me. John 17:23

whichever way any one wants to label this, all I can say in common every day layman's language is,

wow!

such love...
praise the Lord!


Bless you ....><>
 
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