Trinity

[Searchingtoo]

Did you notice these are not my words?

Ok.

There is no objection to referring to Jesus as god if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to God, at John 1:18 Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten son.”

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

I guess I should comment on 1 John 5:20 too since you mention it.

It is obvious that grammatically the word "this" (outos) could be referring to either the Father or Jesus in this particular scripture (see the footnote for 1 John 5:20 in the very trinitarian NIV Study Bible). But the fact that the true God (or "the true One") has just been identified as the Father of Jesus (1 Jn 5:20, TEV and GNB) makes it highly probable that "this is the true God" refers to the Father, not Jesus. The highly trinitarian NT scholar Murray J. Harris sums up his 13-page analysis of this scripture as follows:

"Although it is certainly possible that outos refers back to Jesus Christ, several converging lines of evidence point to `the true one,' God theFather, as the probable antecedent. This position, outos = God [Father], is held by many commentators, authors of general studies, and significantly, by those grammarians who express an opinion on the matter." - p. 253, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Notice how this trinitarian scholar actually admits that the probabilityis that the Father (not Jesus) is being called the true God here. He even tells us (and cites examples in his footnotes) that New Testament grammarians and commentators (most of them trinitarian, of course) agree!

Of course vs 27 was just evidence that Thomas needed to convince him that it was Jesus. Why do you suppose that was? Did he not recognize him? Hmmm

 

[Searchingtoo]

Who was God talking to when he said......

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Since Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" and was in the "image of God", it only makes sense that he was talking to Jesus or the angels, but I don't think he was talking to himself. What I wonder is how did the writer of Genesis know what God said since no human was there to hear it. Do you think God told him? That's a rhetorical question.

 

[Curtis]

Since Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" and was in the "image of God", it only makes sense that he was talking to Jesus or the angels, but I don't think he was talking to himself. What I wonder is how did the writer of Genesis know what God said since no human was there to hear it. Do you think God told him? That's a rhetorical question.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"God" (Jesus Christ)created man in his image. Man was not created in the image of angels!! "Us" meaning Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are ALL called God.

Moses wrote the book of Genesis, and he was not there which means God told him what to write.

 

[Curtis]

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (NKJV)

2Pe 1:1 This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior. (NLT)

 

[Searchingtoo]

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"God" (Jesus Christ)created man in his image. Man was not created in the image of angels!! "Us" meaning Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are ALL called God.

Moses wrote the book of Genesis, and he was not there which means God told him what to write.

God is not Jesus Christ and just because you say the father, son, and Holy Spirit are all God doesn't make so. Give me one, just one scripture that says Jehovah, Jesus and Holy spirt are all three Almighty God. Just one verse. Instead you find many verses that say things like this:

John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten

Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater than Jesus


John 20:17 - Jesus calls God "my God and your God, my Father and your Father"
Revelation 3:2 - Jesus calls God "my God" after he goes to heaven
Revelation 3:12 - again calls God "my God" after he is in heaven
Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why have you forsaken me
Revelation 1:6 - his God and Father

Called Son of God:
Luke 1:35, John 14:33, Luke 22:70, John 5:25, John 10:36, John 11:4, John 17:1, Luke 3:21,22, Mat. 4:3-7, John 1:49,50, Matthew 16:15-17, John 11:25-27.

Called God the Son
0

Jesus can do only what the Father tells him
John 5:19 - only does what the Father does
John 12:49 - only says what he hears the Father say


Proverbs 8:22 - created, formed, brought forth, possessed.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus identified as Wisdom

Now all I ask is one verse that says the holy spirit, Jesus and Jehovah are all three equally God. By the way if you could find one it would have to contradict the ones I just posted.

Oh, and I wouldn't be too sure that angels weren't also made in Gods image. The Bible doesn't say they weren't made in his image. Of the many attributes Christians often cite as distinctions between mankind and animals as evidence man is made in the image of God, these same attributes are found in heavenly beings. So if Angels were made in Gods image he could have easily have been talking to angels.

 

[Curtis]

God is not Jesus Christ and just because you say the father, son, and Holy Spirit are all God doesn't make so. Give me one, just one scripture that says Jehovah, Jesus and Holy spirt are all three Almighty God. Just one verse. Instead you find many verses that say things like this:

John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten

Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater than Jesus


John 20:17 - Jesus calls God "my God and your God, my Father and your Father"
Revelation 3:2 - Jesus calls God "my God" after he goes to heaven
Revelation 3:12 - again calls God "my God" after he is in heaven
Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why have you forsaken me
Revelation 1:6 - his God and Father

Called Son of God:
Luke 1:35, John 14:33, Luke 22:70, John 5:25, John 10:36, John 11:4, John 17:1, Luke 3:21,22, Mat. 4:3-7, John 1:49,50, Matthew 16:15-17, John 11:25-27.

Called God the Son
0

Jesus can do only what the Father tells him
John 5:19 - only does what the Father does
John 12:49 - only says what he hears the Father say


Proverbs 8:22 - created, formed, brought forth, possessed.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus identified as Wisdom

Now all I ask is one verse that says the holy spirit, Jesus and Jehovah are all three equally God. By the way if you could find one it would have to contradict the ones I just posted.

Oh, and I wouldn't be too sure that angels weren't also made in Gods image. The Bible doesn't say they weren't made in his image. Of the many attributes Christians often cite as distinctions between mankind and animals as evidence man is made in the image of God, these same attributes are found in heavenly beings. So if Angels were made in Gods image he could have easily have been talking to angels.

I just gave you two, that should be enough

 

[Curtis]

if Angels were made in Gods image he could have easily have been talking to angels.

Angels can not create anything, so no, God was not talking to angels.

 

[Searchingtoo]

I just gave you two, that should be enough

I'm sorry but you did no such thing. Please post the verses if you have them.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Angels can not create anything, so no, God was not talking to angels.

Why do you say angels can't create anything. Again just give the scripture that says that.

 

[B-A-C]

Why do you say angels can't create anything. Again just give the scripture that says that.

Angels are created beings. Jesus was the first thing created of the physical creation, but that doesn't mean He didn't exist before creation did.

Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Angels are created beings. Jesus was the first thing created of the physical creation, but that doesn't mean He didn't exist before creation did.

Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

I never said angels were not created beings. Of course they were just like everything and everyone else, including Jesus. All I ask for was a scripture that said Jehovah, Jesus and Holy Spirit were all three equally God like you claimed they were and you are silent on that because there is no verse like that in the whole bible.

You also said angels can't create anything and I asked for a scripture that says that. I don't care what you think. Just give me the scripture that proves it. After all this is a supposed to be a bible discussion, not a what do you think discussion.

The verses you just posted have nothing to do with either one.

Thank you kindly

I just noticed you jumped in B-A-C. I thought I was talking to Curtis. I guess he dropped out.

 

[Curtis]

Why do you say angels can't create anything. Again just give the scripture that says that.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Joh_1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who created ALL things? Did angels create anything?

 

[Curtis]

Only God is to be worshipped.......

Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers and sisters who testify about their faith in Jesus. Worship only God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.”

Mat 2:11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. (NLT)

Mat 14:32 When they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped.
Mat 14:33 Then the disciples worshiped him. “You really are the Son of God!” they exclaimed. (NLT)

Mat 28:9 And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped him. (NLT)

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
Mat 28:17 When they saw him, they worshiped him—but some of them doubted! (NLT)

Luk 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven.
Luk 24:52 So they worshiped him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy. (NLT)

Joh 9:38 “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. (NLT)

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (KJV)

 

[Curtis]

The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

No one could ever pay the eternal sacrifice for man's sin forever unless this person existed forever from all eternity.

 

[Curtis]

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

God the Son does everything God the Father does.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

God the Son gives life to whoever he wills exactly as God the Father does.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Whoever has ALL judgment, and authority is God!

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

God the Father and God the Son are equally honored! Only God deserves such honor

.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Whoever is the giver of LIFE is God alone.

 

[Waggles]

Ho hum this has become as a spinning LP vinyl.
round and round in circles.
There is no learning here only blind ideology.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

God the Son does everything God the Father does.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

God the Son gives life to whoever he wills exactly as God the Father does.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Whoever has ALL judgment, and authority is God!

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

God the Father and God the Son are equally honored! Only God deserves such honor

.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Whoever is the giver of LIFE is God alone.

YOU keep saying God the son, God the son, but the bible never calls Jesus God the son, only the son of God and these verses you showed just prove the inferiority of the son to the Father and the scriptures continually show that the son is in subjection to the Father like these:

Jesus is Not Almight God or part of a trinity - God is all knowing, had no beginning, is all powerful.

Jesus is not all knowing - that day or hour no one knows, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)
only the Father knows the day and hour (Matthew 24:36)
My Father is greater than I am (John 14:28)

Jesus had a beginning - Jesus is firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15)
Jesus is the only begotten Son (John 1:14, 18)
he is the beginning of the creation of God (Rev. 3:14)
only first begotten (Heb 1:6)

Jesus is not all powerful - The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do (John 5:19)
the Father is greater than I am (John 14:28)
My Father, who gave them to Me, is greater than all (John 10:29)

And finally, His Father is the only true God. (John 17:3)
Jesus calls God "my God and your God, my Father and your Father" (John 20:17)
Jesus calls God "my God" after he goes to heaven (Rev 3:2)
again calls God "my God" after he is in heaven (Rev 3:12
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me Mat 27:46)
his God and Father (Rev 1:6)

The will of God and Jesus were apparently not even the same at times. “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42)

You still haven't given me even one verse that says Jehovah, Jesus and Holy Spirit are all equally God because they are not. Only the father Jehovah is Almighty God.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Ho hum this has become as a spinning LP vinyl.
round and round in circles.
There is no learning here only blind ideology.

I'm afraid you might be right about that.

 

[B-A-C]

John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten

Response to John 17:3. There is a family of Smiths in California, there is also a family of Smith's in Vermont. Someone asked me, while I was in Colorado, are you one of the Smith's from Vermont? The reply was, no I'm one of the "real" Smith's from California. The Father is the only true God, there aren't two or three God's. But Jesus is a part of the God, just as much as I am a part of my family, even when I'm not physically with them.

John 3:16.. Jesus is the only Son ( uppercase S ) of God. No issue with this. No one else is the "only" Son of God.
Same answer for 1 Jn 4:9; and John 1:14; if anything this reinforces His deity.

Response to Col 1:15; The physical universe didn't always exist. But God/Jesus did. However when God finally got around to creating the Universe, Jesus was the first physical person created.
This doesn't mean He didn't exist before creation.
Same answer for Rev 3:14;

Heb 1:6; And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7; And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

OK, He took the firstborn of creation into the world ( already explained this above ) so what is the problem?
The Father calls the Son "God" in verse 8. Which is a quote of...

Psa 45:6; Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater than Jesus

There is a hierarchy in the Godhead. The three persons of the Trinity are not equal. Nor do they need to be.

So far everyone of the verses is a straw man with no substance.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Response to John 17:3. There is a family of Smiths in California, there is also a family of Smith's in Vermont. Someone asked me, while I was in Colorado, are you one of the Smith's from Vermont? The reply was, no I'm one of the "real" Smith's from California. The Father is the only true God, there aren't two or three God's. But Jesus is a part of the God, just as much as I am a part of my family, even when I'm not physically with them.

John 3:16.. Jesus is the only Son ( uppercase S ) of God. No issue with this. No one else is the "only" Son of God.
Same answer for 1 Jn 4:9; and John 1:14; if anything this reinforces His deity.

Response to Col 1:15; The physical universe didn't always exist. But God/Jesus did. However when God finally got around to creating the Universe, Jesus was the first physical person created.
This doesn't mean He didn't exist before creation.
Same answer for Rev 3:14;

Heb 1:6; And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7; And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

OK, He took the firstborn of creation into the world ( already explained this above ) so what is the problem?
The Father calls the Son "God" in verse 8. Which is a quote of...

Psa 45:6; Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.



There is a hierarchy in the Godhead. The three persons of the Trinity are not equal. Nor do they need to be.

So far everyone of the verses is a straw man with no substance.

All this has been covered here ad nauseam and I'm not going to waste any more time with you on this. Nothing you said made any sense and if you can't understand it or just refuse to that will have to be your problem, not mine. I've tried my best but some horses won't drink when led to water. I wish you the best.