Universalism - a discussion

[Rhema]

Argument from the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26​

This argument states that after all of God’s enemies are defeated with the defeat of the last enemy, death, leading to God becoming “all in all” over a redeemed creation, no enemies can still exist as such...

But if they cannot exist, then the dead wouldn't still be alive somewhere in this fictional hell of torment.

So they then no longer exist, or a reconciliation happened that we might not understand.

Rhema

 

[MedicBravo]

Cherry picked verses. Typical. You also omit 2-4 which goes together. Where does any of this suggest Universalism? It doesn't.
Psalm 136:1-4
Oh, give thanks to the LORD, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.
Oh, give thanks to the God of gods!
For His mercy endures forever.
Oh, give thanks to the Lord of lords!
For His mercy endures forever:
To Him who alone does great wonders,
For His mercy endures forever;

SInce you failed to put the relevant verses together.

Job 34 - Elihu denounces Jon

10-15 The righteousness of God and His Moral order.
“Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
Who gave Him charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.”
Again, nothing suggests Universalism.
You then ask Rhema for a "private conversation" which is dishonest and secretive.

Universasilm is a Left/Liberal/Communist way of thinking
You and your "group" are not a majority.

Proverbs 6:14 "With perverted heart devises evil, continually sowing discord;"

Ephesians 5:11 "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Salvation is selective and specific. Let’s examine the selective nature of salvation. Salvation is specifically limited to:

• those who are the elect (Matthew 24:31; 2 Timothy 2:10, 19; Titus 1:1-3; 1 Peter 1:1-3), chosen since before the beginning of the world (Ephesians 1:3-12), and predestined for salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; 1 Peter 2:7-9)
• those who are chosen (Matthew 22:14; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-10; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17; James 2:5; Revelation 17:14)
• those who are appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48)
• those who heard the word of salvation and believed (John 5:24; Ephesians 1:13)
• those who believe (Luke 18:14; John 1:11-13; 3:16, 18; 36; 11:25-26; Romans 10:11; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 3:22-26; 1 Timothy 1:16; Hebrews 3:19; 6:12; 11:1-40; 1 Peter 1:5; 2:6; 1 John 5:5; etc.)
• those on whom God has mercy (Romans 9:18)
• those whom God calls to himself (Acts 2:39; Romans 1:5-6; 8:30; Hebrews 9:15; Revelation 17:14)
• those to whom it is granted by God (2 Peter 1:3-4)
• those who are known by Jesus (Matthew 7:23)
• those for whom a place has been prepared (Matthew 20:23; Mark 10:40)
• those to whom the truth is revealed (Luke 10:21-24)
• those who receive Him (John 1:12; Revelation 3:20-21)
• those who are born again (John 3:4-8; 1 Peter 1:3)
• those to whom Jesus gives life (John 5:21)
• those whose eyes have not been blinded by God (John 12:39-40) or their minds hardened (2 Corinthians 3:14-18)
• those who do not reject salvation (Hebrews 2:3) or harden their hearts (Hebrews 3:7-15)
• those who were given to Jesus (John 17:2, 6, 9, 10, 24)
• those who call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21; Romans10:13)
• those who received the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:11)
• those who persevere in the faith (Matthew 10:22; Romans 11:17-24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Colossians 1:21-23; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 3:14)
• those whose names are in the “book of life” (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 13:8-9; 17:8; 20:15)
• those who are not deluded and thus condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)
• those who confess Jesus (Romans 10:9; 1 John 4:15)
• those who have the Son (1 John 5:10-12)
• those who do not deny Christ and are thus not designated for condemnation (Jude 4,5)
• those who are faithful (Revelation 2:10; 17:14)
• those who repent (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30-31; 1 John 1:9)
• those who love God (Deuteronomy 7:9; Romans 8:28; James 2:5)
• those who love others (1 Corinthians 13:2-3; Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:12, 20, 21)
• those who enter through the narrow way (Matthew 7:12-14)
• those who do not deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of truth (Hebrews 10:26-27)
• those who have not rejected God the Father (Romans 1:18-32), God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29), or God the Son (John 3:36; John 8:24)
• those who are obedient (Deuteronomy 7:9; 9:16-18; Nehemiah 1:5; Psalm 25:10; 103; 11-19; Ezekiel 18; Matthew 5:19-20; 6:19-21; 7:16-27; 10:38; 12:36-37; 12:50; 13:36-43; 16:25-27; 18:23-35; 25:31-46; Mark 8:34-35; Luke 6:46-49; 10:25-37; 11:28; John 5:29; 8:51; 14:21-24; 15:1-6, 10, 14; Acts 5:32; Romans 1:18; 2:1-16; 6:1-23; 8:13; 14:17-18; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15; 6:9-11; 7:19; 9:24-27; Galatians 5:19-21; 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:3-14; Philippians 2:12-18; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; 2:10; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Timothy 2:21-22; Titus 1:16; Hebrews 3:6-18; 10:36; 12:14-17; James 1:12-15; 2:17-26; 1 Peter 1:22; 2:1-2; 1 Peter 4:17-19; 2 Peter 1:10-11; 1 John 1:6-7; 1 John 2:29; 3:16-24; 5:2-3; Jude 1:7; Revelation 2:2-11; 3:8-12; 21:5-9, 27; 22:14-19)
  
  Go. Have your private little conversation.

 

[KingJ]

So you reject the scriptures that I provided. OK. If you reject those then you'll likely reject the others too and so there seems no point in sharing more. Thanks for your response.

God's heart wants all saved. His mind wants to honor the choice of those who don't want to be with Him. He is a good God and free will is a good thing. No free will is evil.

Now, you are not dealing with scriptures I have given you. You are showing signs of ostrich syndrome.

I gave you scripture that SAYS, people REJECT the light because they LOVE the darkness. It is EVIL to force evil people to be in the light. You have completely ignored this.

I gave you scripture that SAYS, the devil has been sinning SINCE THE BEGINNING. You have completely ignored this.

I gave you scripture that SAYS, God judges depths of our hearts and minds as only He can. You have completely ignored this.

The problem is that you are cherry picking scriptures and not grasping that God ''willing all be saved'' does not equate to all being saved. You don't believe in free will. That is a position you take before letting scripture speak for itself.

Does God want ALL people to be saved from forever death & punishment? Yes, the Bible says so.

Does God get what God wants? Yes, the Bible says so.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What God wants is not always what He gets. He adorned Lucifer and Lucifer betrayed him. Free will!

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Not wishing any to perish is what He wants, people perishing from their free will choice to love what is evil, is what happens. Free will.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

And all of scripture is His purpose. Eternal hell. Eternal bliss.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

And all of scripture is His purpose. Eternal hell. Eternal bliss.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Mankind that repents of their sins was predestined to be placed in Christ. Not all will repent. It is wishful thinking to think they will.

 

[MedicBravo]

Like 12:10 "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
What part of NOT do some of you NOT understand?
Is the correct, from God and the Bible truth too BORING for you? Is it too "mean" according to your flawed, MORTAL body? Thinking Universalism is Biblical when it isn't is blashemty.
You know what Christians are supposed to do to those who do it and refuse to change?

2 John 7-11 " Do Not Receive Him Into Your House Nor Greet Him"

So, by default the Mods should ban people who push blasphemy.
God never said to "repect other religions" or lack thereof so anyone pushing Satanishm shouldn't be allowed here by default.
It's arrogant and prideful for one or even those who run a website to think they're going to be the sole variable on bringing someone to God.

Christianity is not inclusive it's exclusive especially regarding any sin even if it's your sweet but non-Christian grandma, sibling living in an adulterous relationship and even your lifelong "best friend" who's in an Alphabet pervert relationship.
God isn't going to give them a pass just b/c of your short, mortal, relationship with them.

 

[KingJ]

Like 12:10 "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
What part of NOT do some of you NOT understand?
Is the correct, from God and the Bible truth too BORING for you? Is it too "mean" according to your flawed, MORTAL body? Thinking Universalism is Biblical when it isn't is blashemty.
You know what Christians are supposed to do to those who do it and refuse to change?

2 John 7-11 " Do Not Receive Him Into Your House Nor Greet Him"

So, by default the Mods should ban people who push blasphemy.
God never said to "repect other religions" or lack thereof so anyone pushing Satanishm shouldn't be allowed here by default.
It's arrogant and prideful for one or even those who run a website to think they're going to be the sole variable on bringing someone to God.

Christianity is not inclusive it's exclusive especially regarding any sin even if it's your sweet but non-Christian grandma, sibling living in an adulterous relationship and even your lifelong "best friend" who's in an Alphabet pervert relationship.
God isn't going to give them a pass just b/c of your short, mortal, relationship with them.

Medic, you are over reacting.

Universalism is not an evil belief.

It does not suggest Jesus needs to die again. In essence it is similar to Purgatory. IE Extra time for rehabilitation.

If you want to jump on someone that pushes actual heresy, jump on those who teach these - False teaching

 

[B-A-C]

Universalism is not an evil belief.

But it is a false belief. A lie. Is a lie evil? Does God lie?

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[KingJ]

But it is a false belief.

Agreed.

A lie. Is a lie evil? Does God lie?

Its not a lie from those who believe it. This disagreement is 100% immaterial.

It is a belief that God is good. Many can't accept eternal torture = good God. That equation does not work. Eternal separation and a sane / righteous form of torment is the truth. If all Christian preachers were properly teaching on hell, we would not have universalists .

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Agreed.

 

[MedicBravo]

Medic, you are over reacting.

Universalism is not an evil belief.

It does not suggest Jesus needs to die again. In essence it is similar to Purgatory. IE Extra time for rehabilitation.

If you want to jump on someone that pushes actual heresy, jump on those who teach these - False teaching

"you are overreaacting" - Your unbased opinion and wrong.

It IS evil. The entire group's "belief" is based on word play and that ONE verse.

Mortal minds especially theirs cannot comprehend God's goodness and justice. Punishment on unrepentant sinners will be perfect even if it's on your spouse, kids, best friend your whole life, parents, etc.
Should you make it, then you, I, and everyone who did as we should and NOT support that mess will have a new body and mind. You will know how God is and the judgement on any of your loved ones. God isn't going to give special treatment to anyone.

Again, if Universalism was, a majority would believe it and it would have backing. It doesn't.

Purgatory does not exist. Jesus' death was either enough for all or not at all.
Purgatory is Catholic heresy.

 

[Rhema]

So, by default the Mods should ban people who push blasphemy.

You might find yourself gone, dude.

But was your post a rant to the general public, since you hadn't specified the recipient?

You have a good day,
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

"you are overreaacting" - Your unbased opinion and wrong.

It IS evil. The entire group's "belief" is based on word play and that ONE verse.

And that makes it evil? Please be specific on what exactly is evil about the belief.

Mortal minds especially theirs cannot comprehend God's goodness and justice. Punishment on unrepentant sinners will be perfect even if it's on your spouse, kids, best friend your whole life, parents, etc.

They believe in punishment.

Should you make it, then you, I, and everyone who did as we should and NOT support that mess will have a new body and mind. You will know how God is and the judgement on any of your loved ones. God isn't going to give special treatment to anyone.

I don't see any special treatment, please can you better explain.

Again, if Universalism was, a majority would believe it and it would have backing. It doesn't.

Not saying its correct. But it certainly is not evil. You can love Jesus 100% and be an amazing Christian with that belief.

Purgatory does not exist. Jesus' death was either enough for all or not at all.
Purgatory is Catholic heresy.

I agree it is incorrect. Heresy is a harsh word to use for beliefs that are not evil. Simply a misunderstanding.

There is no evil in a belief in Purgatory. You are over reacting my friend.

 

[MedicBravo]

ou can love Jesus 100% and be an amazing Christian with that belief.

Says you? Your wrong opinion again, nothing more.
Universalism is evil. Not an opinion.

 

[KingJ]

Says you? Your wrong opinion again, nothing more.
Universalism is evil. Not an opinion.

Well, you have not come close to proving it is evil.

Every good person on this planet with a working brain should agree with the rehabilitation of all. As a Christian you need to better make your case for eternal torture = good God. Stating that God is good and wanting to defend Him as such is not my opinion. Stating that every person on this planet with a working brain should agree with rehabilitation if they used it, is not my opinion. Stating that you are not making a case for God being good, is not my opinion. Facts are not opinions.

Imagine you were the person sitting in 'your' version of hell for all eternity and you had people like @Marston pleading with God to let you out once you were rehabilitated. You would be so thankful to Marston, that is a fact, not an opinion.

Looking forward to a more solid case for universalism = evil from you.

 

[MedicBravo]

"Well, you have not come close to proving it is evil." - You're the one with the refusal to accept the Truth.
Your "belief" is a TINY minority and NO minority defines a majority or what is the standard.

"Imagine you were the person sitting in 'your' version of hell for all eternity and you had people like @Marston pleading with God" - That's not Biblical and another lie.

You are the blind one here. Universalism is NOT of God and is evil.
Again, the mention of Hell easily obliterates Universalism. You're no authority in this or anywhere.

 

[Garee]

And that makes it evil? Please be specific on what exactly is evil about the belief.



They believe in punishment.



I don't see any special treatment, please can you better explain.



Not saying its correct. But it certainly is not evil. You can love Jesus 100% and be an amazing Christian with that belief.



I agree it is incorrect. Heresy is a harsh word to use for beliefs that are not evil. Simply a misunderstanding.

There is no evil in a belief in Purgatory. You are over reacting my friend.

Or you could be under reacting. It would depend on who you are reacting to????


I would ask.

Where in the bible can a person find the doctrine of wondering, suffering, wondering, marveling in Limbo for the younger sinners and Purgatory for the more mature sinner?

Teaching the queen mother of heaven named after Mary our blessed sister in the lord alone received the fullness of Grace . . .complete cost of salvation. . while the rest of the planet an unknown amount of saving grace. Therefore, doing despite to the Spirit of Christ's Grace

The Bible informs there must be heresies as differences in opinions amongst us . The unseen understanding of faith Chrsits's labor of love come by hearing the eternal living word . . not seeing the temporal dying.

In that way there can be oral traditions of dying mankind as long as they do not do despite the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation . Making the need of Limbo or purgatory without effect

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[KingJ]

"Well, you have not come close to proving it is evil." - You're the one with the refusal to accept the Truth.
Your "belief" is a TINY minority and NO minority defines a majority or what is the standard.

"Imagine you were the person sitting in 'your' version of hell for all eternity and you had people like @Marston pleading with God" - That's not Biblical and another lie.

You are the blind one here. Universalism is NOT of God and is evil.
Again, the mention of Hell easily obliterates Universalism. You're no authority in this or anywhere.

You keep saying it is evil and give no rational reason other than to say it is unscriptural, when it has some scriptures to defend it.

Prove it is evil or DON'T say it is evil. You are embarrassing Christianity.

I do not agree with it, but I would certainly not call it evil, when it is most certainly quite the opposite!

You are guilty of over reacting on Catholic beliefs and now universalism too.

 

[KingJ]

Or you could be under reacting. It would depend on who you are reacting to????


I would ask.

Where in the bible can a person find the doctrine of wondering, suffering, wondering, marveling in Limbo for the younger sinners and Purgatory for the more mature sinner?

Teaching the queen mother of heaven named after Mary our blessed sister in the lord alone received the fullness of Grace . . .complete cost of salvation. . while the rest of the planet an unknown amount of saving grace. Therefore, doing despite to the Spirit of Christ's Grace

The Bible informs there must be heresies as differences in opinions amongst us . The unseen understanding of faith Chrsits's labor of love come by hearing the eternal living word . . not seeing the temporal dying.

In that way there can be oral traditions of dying mankind as long as they do not do despite the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation . Making the need of Limbo or purgatory without effect

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

We cannot call every belief we disagree with someone on, heresy.

If a belief mocks Jesus, mocks the cross or incriminates God, it is heresy. Universalism and Purgatory do neither.

 

[KingJ]

"Imagine you were the person sitting in 'your' version of hell for all eternity and you had people like @Marston pleading with God" - That's not Biblical and another lie.

Your mind is in a box. You are missing the point being made. Namely, it would be a good and not evil thing of Marston to do.

Not all readers are Christians. When we call good things evil, we embarrass ourselves and Christianity.

Have you not read my post # 3 in this thread? That is how you explain why God and scripture disagrees.

 

[MedicBravo]

You keep saying it is evil and give no rational reason other than to say it is unscriptural, when it has some scriptures to defend it.

Prove it is evil or DON'T say it is evil. You are embarrassing Christianity.

I do not agree with it, but I would certainly not call it evil, when it is most certainly quite the opposite!

You are guilty of over reacting on Catholic beliefs and now universalism too.

1. The verses you gave are so VAGUE. It's what the entire false belief stands on.
2. I already have. You are the minority in this.
3. "You are embarrassing Christianity." - You speak for no one but yourself. If I were wrong then more and more people would be on your side. They're not. Arrogance and pride tend to lead to blindness.
4. If God didn't say it and the Bible, therefore, doesn't it is. Sorry you can't understand.
5. I'm not guilty of anything other than being a sinner like everyone else.

I state on the CC and them b/c of what they do and have done.
Evidence not opinions. Some may not do this and that but most do this and that.

 

[MedicBravo]

What else is evil?
Allowing Satanists and Muslims in Christian spaces.
Allowing blasphemy and adding to the Bible; Universalism, Moronism. Flat Earth.
Animal Jesus died so animals can be in Heaven.

 

[Christ4Ever]

What else is evil?
Allowing Satanists and Muslims in Christian spaces.
Allowing blasphemy and adding to the Bible; Universalism, Moronism. Flat Earth.
Animal Jesus died so animals can be in Heaven.

How will they learn if you do not teach them?
How will you teach them if you have no contact with them?

That is why Talk Jesus is here but to spread the Gospel and help those who are seekers, and those who know no better or do. As long as whatever the heresy happens to be is not being evangelized, instead of discussed (iron sharpens iron) and talked of, then we move on.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator/YBIC
Nick
\o/
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