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Universalism - a discussion

How will they learn if you do not teach them?
How will you teach them if you have no contact with them?

That is why Talk Jesus is here but to spread the Gospel and help those who are seekers, and those who know no better or do. As long as whatever the heresy happens to be is not being evangelized, instead of discussed (iron sharpens iron) and talked of, then we move on.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator/YBIC
Nick
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This site, me, you, and even a huge group of Christians aren't going to be the sole catalyst.
Christ will change a person not one or many of us. We don't have his power or authority.

My priority as commanded is Self and my Family before friends and neighbors.
The Bible tells us how to treat those who refuse to change and here constant pushing of Universalism.

It's not Biblical nor suggested at all in the Bible.
Christ4Ever, you are one of the best mods here and if you close this, I'm 100% for it.
I will NEVER be silent on this Universalism mess.

P.S. By God we shouldn't allow Satanist here. Allow evil even one TINY hold and it will fight hard to keep it.
I've seen many groups fail/fall and taken over by "them". They allowed "other POVs" like this and others.
God isn't "inclusive". God is exclusive to non-Christians who refuse to repent and change.

All social media sites have their own ToS and what they allow. This place must be no different.
 
This site, me, you, and even a huge group of Christians aren't going to be the sole catalyst.
Indeed, nor should they be. Our job is to declare the truth, and then move on. We are blessed in that conviction is not our responsibility; the Holy Spirit does the heavy lifting (if any).

The Bible tells us how to treat those who refuse to change and here constant pushing of Universalism.
Indeed. Normally, a Matthew chapter 18 procedure would be followed for errant (so-called) Christians. But since this is a public forum, that first private step of the process is forfeit.

P.S. By God we shouldn't allow Satanist here. Allow evil even one TINY hold and it will fight hard to keep it.
I've seen many groups fail/fall and taken over by "them". They allowed "other POVs" like this and others.
God isn't "inclusive". God is exclusive to non-Christians who refuse to repent and change.
Indeed.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Their evil intentions will be exposed when the light shines on them, for the light makes everything visible. We state the truth, and then we move on. We do not continue to countenance the recalcitrant, try to "get even," or debate any further, as debate is a characteristic of the reprobate mind (Romans 1:28-32). Unfortunately, too many are themselves not walking in truth, and thus make easy targets for the one seeking prey. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you (Matthew 7:6). We must be aware that truth becomes the first casualty in this medium and thus we must guard it, staying in IT, at all times. It's never to become personal.

All social media sites have their own ToS and what they allow. This place must be no different.
Indeed. "It's just business."

Nonetheless, we do have guidance from the Most High: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. (Romans 16:17-18).

If this reprobate person is no longer granted an audience, that is, if we do what God says to do i.e. we mark them, avoid them, and have no further fellowship with him, then such a one no longer has any prey i.e. he and his backslapping buddies become disempowered. We would then pray that conviction would fall upon the errant ones to the hopeful end of their restoration.
 
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How will they learn if you do not teach them?
How will you teach them if you have no contact with them?
And what if they are unteachable?

That is why Talk Jesus is here but to spread the Gospel and help those who are seekers, and those who know no better or do.
Seekers? Yes. Provocateurs? No.

As long as whatever the heresy happens to be is not being evangelized, instead of discussed (iron sharpens iron) and talked of, then we move on.
There's the rub, i.e. having the discernment to know which is which, as that beast is the most subtle of the field. From my view, I see heresy being aided and abetted...subtly.
 
Two people here refuse to drop Universalism so this threat should by God's words and the mods closed.
 
And what if they are unteachable?
Another question that requires the attempt to be made.
Seekers? Yes. Provocateurs? No.
Once again, you must know as the following does as well, which is allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you, with the discernment He helps you to interpret.
There's the rub, i.e. having the discernment to know which is which, as that beast is the most subtle of the field. From my view, I see heresy being aided and abetted...subtly.
The real rub to start out with is defining "Heresy". Then allowing for discernment in determining who is earnestly seeking, inquiring, or as you have said provocateur/troll etc. Not always easy, and usually telling even without discernment giving enough time, because they are deceivers and sometimes even to themselves. :(

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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<><
 
...and sometimes [deceivers] even to themselves.
Yeah, that's where grace must come in. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
1. The verses you gave are so VAGUE. It's what the entire false belief stands on.

I am not trying to defend the belief.

2. I already have. You are the minority in this.

I am not a universalist. Please read the OP here for my belief - What to expect in hell

3. "You are embarrassing Christianity." - You speak for no one but yourself. If I were wrong then more and more people would be on your side. They're not. Arrogance and pride tend to lead to blindness.

Please read and quote my post # 3 in this thread and you will see where I am coming from.

4. If God didn't say it and the Bible, therefore, doesn't it is. Sorry you can't understand.

Today so many have differing beliefs as many cherry pick scriptures. We need to try and peacefully discuss the topics. Identifying the material from the immaterial beliefs. Example:

1. 5 Pt Calvinism = Incriminates God as it teaches, He is partial. A respecter of persons. = 10/10 bad belief.
2. Annihilationism = Incriminates God as it teaches, He does not give true free will. = 4/10 bad belief.
3. Non-trinitarians = mock the cross, mock Jesus and incriminate God. They teach that God does not love us and gave cruel punishment to an unlucky being who drew the shortest straw. = 9/10 bad belief.

Now, universalism, a belief similar to Purgatory, teaching that all receive extra time and a type of unpleasant circumstance, punishment (similar to plagues) to force a rehabilitation = 0/10 bad belief.

5. I'm not guilty of anything other than being a sinner like everyone else.

I state on the CC and them b/c of what they do and have done.
Evidence not opinions. Some may not do this and that but most do this and that.

You are guilty of not properly discerning the belief. You can get 'upset' at those in the 4-10/10 category of heresy ;) .
 
I am not trying to defend the belief.



I am not a universalist. Please read the OP here for my belief - What to expect in hell



Please read and quote my post # 3 in this thread and you will see where I am coming from.



Today so many have differing beliefs as many cherry pick scriptures. We need to try and peacefully discuss the topics. Identifying the material from the immaterial beliefs. Example:

1. 5 Pt Calvinism = Incriminates God as it teaches, He is partial. A respecter of persons. = 10/10 bad belief.
2. Annihilationism = Incriminates God as it teaches, He does not give true free will. = 4/10 bad belief.
3. Non-trinitarians = mock the cross, mock Jesus and incriminate God. They teach that God does not love us and gave cruel punishment to an unlucky being who drew the shortest straw. = 9/10 bad belief.

Now, universalism, a belief similar to Purgatory, teaching that all receive extra time and a type of unpleasant circumstance, punishment (similar to plagues) to force a rehabilitation = 0/10 bad belief.



You are guilty of not properly discerning the belief. You can get 'upset' at those in the 4-10/10 category of heresy ;) .
If not, then obliterate that belief.
The problem is too many groups exist in Christianity.

Jesus never said to entertain other religious or groups even when they have made their cherry picked versions of God, i.e. Catholics and Morons.
 
We cannot call every belief we disagree with someone on, heresy.

If a belief mocks Jesus, mocks the cross or incriminates God, it is heresy. Universalism and Purgatory do neither.


I would offer..

Heresy is a personal difference of opinion\sect\denomination.

Seeing the kingdom of God works within dying mankind there can be differences as oral traditions as long as they do not make the fullness of grace the complete cost of salvation to no effect .

Many things can make sola scriptura God' living word without effect other than limbo purgatory the wondering salvation . Like the Rosary another different kind of source of faith (belief) refusing to walk or understand God not seen as he has written it . (finger of God )"Let there be "

Teaching a queen mother in heaven alone received enough grace to be saved the rest of the planet unknowable amount of saving grace ???

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
As were the Apostles!

So, we really need to take care how we use "Heresy".
Define it first, and then we'll see where that takes us.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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<><

I recall Jesus scolding the Pharisees and citing OT scriptures that told of his coming. Perhaps Jesus was NOT heretical in that he didn't refute the scriptures. In reality, it was the Pharisees who were heretical in that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies whom they then rejected. Right?
 
I recall Jesus scolding the Pharisees and citing OT scriptures that told of his coming. Perhaps Jesus was NOT heretical in that he didn't refute the scriptures. In reality, it was the Pharisees who were heretical in that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies whom they then rejected. Right?
Calling out "Heresy" only needs to make sense to the person doing the talking. :(
At least until they report it to the governing authorities, who have to make the decision on whether it is or is not and then rule on what to do about it. That is why setting a definition on what "Heresy" is necessary but can fluctuate depending on the governing authority.

So, whether it was or was not Heretical, the teachings of Jesus, was up to the religious leaders of the time to determine as far as I can tell. It doesn't mean they were right, but they had the authority to do so. That is why great care must be taken, or an innocent person could wind up being crucified. :(

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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<><
 
...That is why setting a definition on what "Heresy" is necessary.
Believers go to the only Truth-full source for that definition - the Holy Bible. Heresy is not about anyone's "opinion" - protestations from the liberal SO (Scholarship Only) crowd and their humanistic dictionaries notwithstanding.

In the New Testament, the English word "heresy" is from an untranslated Greek word (word #139). It's used nine times; four times it is left untranslated, but the other five times it is translated. This word is translated as "sect" (i.e., denomination) in Acts 5:17; 15:5; 24:5; 26:5 and 28:22. However, it is left untranslated in Acts 24:14, 1 Corinthians 11:19, Galatians 5:20 and 2 Peter 2:1. Why would it be left untranslated? Well, let's see what some of these verses would say if it was translated.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19, "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies [sects, denominations] among you..."
Because it shows that denominations cause divisions! What else does scripture say about sects?

Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies (sects, denominations), Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Denominations are defined as a work of the flesh! We are told that they who partake of these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Why not? Because denominations cause divisions, and Christ is not divided. Therefore, denominations are not of Christ!

2 Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (sects, denominations), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
This passage says false prophets and false teachers will bring in denominations, and they will deny the Lord. Denominations do deny the Lord by dividing the Lord.

"As a formal Christian denomination, Christian universalism originated in the late 18th century with the Universalist Church of America."
The theory of universalism is a heretical denominational doctrine and thus who espouse it are, by scriptural definition, heretics.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. (Titus 3:10-11).

...great care must be taken, or an innocent person could wind up being crucified.
Because of the lateness of the hour, and the prophesied wholesale departure from the historic Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is much dissension within the ranks of the Christian church in America. This conflict may be boiled down to two basic camps: those that focus on unity in an attempt to reconcile doctrinal differences at virtually any cost, and those that are intensely criticizing the ecumenicism of the former group.

You would criticize me for naming an individual that has led the church in the wrong direction. Some say that it is unscriptural and unloving to attack individuals by recounting their specific deeds and statements -- or by referring to them with derogatory terms. Others say it is judgmental, and cite scriptures such as "judge not that ye be judged" (Matthew 7:1) and "he that is without sin let him first cast a stone" (John 8:7).

So, whether it was or was not Heretical, the teachings of Jesus, was up to the religious leaders of the time to determine as far as I can tell.
The scriptures however, repeatedly show that the Apostles did judge in certain circumstances where the criticism was warranted. This judgment occurs both within and without the church. Indeed, beginning with John the Baptist's reproof of King Herod for having his brother's wife (Luke 3: 19), we see a consistent pattern wherein the believer is firmly admonished to stand up and confront the evil before us.

Ephesians tells us to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11). The dictionary tells us the word reproof is "an expression of censure or blame: rebuke, reprimand." The word reprove is even stronger: "to disapprove, condemn" (Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary).

Paul states in II Timothy that this reproof is to "be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (II Timothy 4:2). The idea of "out of season" means to do it even when its inconvenient or seemingly inappropriate; yet the term "longsuffering" modifies this confrontational judgment by tempering it with patience and wisdom. A tall order indeed.

I Corinthians enumerates the acts that will send someone to Hell: "Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9). The preceding covers quite a bit of territory.

The parallel to this rather vivid description of which sins will bar entrance to the kingdom of God is found in Galatians:

"...Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

In addition to pronouncing judgment on all "which do such things," Paul says the church is qualified to judge among themselves. He writes that "...he that is spiritual judgeth all things" (I Corinthians 2:15). Three chapters later, he writes concerning his judgment relative to a certain matter among the believers in Corinth: "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed..." (I Corinthians 5:3). He confirms that the Corinthian Christians were authorized to "...judge them that are within" 9 verses later (I Corinthians 5:12).

In the next chapter he points out that because "...the saints shall judge the world," we are certainly authorized to judge among the church when someone has transgressed against the doctrine of Christ. Paul even rebukes the Corinthians for not judging when he writes "If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church" (I Corinthians 6:4).

While my opponents would say it's wrong to say a specific person is unsaved, Philippians says that the Apostle Paul frequently told the church at Philippi about specific individuals that had departed from the faith. He wrote "For many walk, of whom I have told you of and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ" (Philippians 3: 18). Paul is doing precisely what Jude wrote about when he said we should -- "...earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3).

Ultimately, we see the offenders are named. The earlier mention of Herod (Luke 3:19) is confirmed by Paul's public rebuke of Demetrius (Acts 19:24), Hymenaeus and Alexander (I Timothy 1 :20), and other parties that are known to the church but are unrecorded in scripture (Romans 16:17). In one instance, Paul even names Peter as having been at fault (Galatians 2:11) in a theological dispute.

We see the apostates called a "generation of vipers" in Luke 3:7, "hypocrites" in Luke 11:44, "spots in your feasts" in Jude 1: 12, and "whited sepulchres" in Matthew 23 :27 - all extremely derisive terms.

Clearly, the scriptures provide ample justification for pronouncing a righteous judgment on all who would lead others away from the historic gospel of Jesus Christ. "Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." (Romans 16:17).
 
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Heresy is not about any "opinion."
In this day, it sure is. Maybe not when the church was first being established but now?
You make a claim of heresy and take it to different denominational authorities, and you would probably find a split that you might find surprising. Then again you might not be surprised, because I would not. Some of them that you took it to might call it "Heresy" while others might not. It's the nature of division that exists in and out of Christendom. I would ask you when the last time was you heard a sermon from the pulpit on Heresy.

You could even use the divinity of Jesus as an example. Some would state questioning the divinity of Jesus "Heretical", while you could find some that establish that as acceptable doctrine. Yes, even in the face of scripture, which as a foundation a source as that is for some it is questioned anyway, so they might not find it as viable or inerrant source for determining the divinity of Jesus as Heretical.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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<><
 
In this day, it sure is [about opinion]. Maybe not when the church was first being established but now?
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb. 13:8).

So to which "church" are you referring? To the general assembly and church of the firstborn (Heb. 12:23), or to the harlot?

You make a claim of heresy and take it to different denominational authorities...
Exactly my point. A believer is never to take it to ANY of the world's "denominational authorities," as that's where the heretics and their false doctrines are. Believers are in the world, but not of the world.

I would ask you when the last time was you heard a sermon from the pulpit on Heresy.
Exactly again! The so-called church today has lost its salt and thus is worthless, as are all "denominations." The "pastor" won't preach on heresy because it would hit too close to home and he won't allow anything to upset his congregants or otherwise interfere with his enterpri$e. The denominational pastor says, 'If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.' (as per John 11:48).

The point is, the apostles possessed God's authority (and not some denomination's version of it) and thus dealt Truth-fully and righteously with heresies - and we, as followers of Christ and not of denominations such as universalism, are to do likewise.
 
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Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb. 13:8).
True but doesn't change what you see, or I should say what is believed of Him by many as I mentioned further in the post about His divinity.
Exactly my point. A believer is never to take it to ANY of the world's "denominational authorities," as that's where the heretics and their false doctrines are. Believers are in the world, but not of the world.
Which is my point that one can say this is "Heresy", but another say nay. In the street you can walk your separate ways, and the same in a church, and even here on Talk Jesus. Turning them over to God or Satan depending on what you believe should be righteously done.

However, too often people are obstinate in making a point to do so, and become a nuisance, at least on this site. So, instead of "agreeing to disagree" and moving on, they make so much noise that the staff has to make a determination on what to do. :( What would you do? :) You can couple this with the below one as well.

The point is, the apostles possessed God's authority (and not some denomination's) and thus dealt Truth-fully and righteously with heresies - and we, as followers of Christ and not of denominations, are to do likewise.
Yet, sadly, few in this day and age have the discernment to do so.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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<><
 
Believers go to the only Truth-full source for that definition - the Holy Bible.

In my experience the vast majority of Christians reject scriptures that don't fit their theology. Take the following verse as an example. It says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL people. Is that true? Will Jesus actually save ALL people as this verse says?

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
 
True but doesn't change what you see, or I should say what is believed of Him by many as I mentioned further in the post about His divinity.
I agree, and in so doing, we would be unanimous in our estimation that a great number who frequent this site (and the majority of other sites in the same genre) are "walking disorderly" (2 Thes. 3:6) - believers and posers alike.

Believers do have a charge: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us; For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. (2 Thes. 3:6-9). Unfortunately, we cannot not assume that every poster is a "brother."

Largely it's the tares (but not always) who go back and forth saying `you see what he/she said? Don't you think that's atrocious?' They can then take the response and send it all around until they've stirred up "certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar." (Acts 17:5). And these tares can be very subtle in their ravaging of their prey. In the ensuing turmoil, they then seek to capitalize on it by insinuating themselves as the defenders of truth.

Unfortunately, unwary believers are easily sucked into this repetitive maelstrom that seems to present a clear case of good versus evil. But truth is the first casualty of war, and in the spiritual warfare that is raging even now, the Christian forum has become a stronghold of Satan. Indeed, there seems to be a spirit associated with the very concept - thus I choose to avoid that unsavory arena on the internet unless directed otherwise by my Master.

Even though such forums are a very economical and inexpensive way to communicate, the spiritual price tag is too high. The sad truth is, the forums reduce everything to its lowest common denominator and the world's Christians are poorer for it.

...In the street you can walk your separate ways, and the same in a church, and even here on Talk Jesus. Turning them over to God or Satan depending on what you believe should be righteously done.

However, too often people are obstinate in making a point to do so, and become a nuisance, at least on this site.
This is truly good to see i.e. the nexus of the problem brought out into the open.

What would you do?
I just knew you were gonna ask that. :eek:

Well, I'm always one for raising the bar, but again, we're stuck with that "lowest common denominator" playbook. I've seen other sites specify more particulars in their ToS. And of course the mod's would then need to be on that same page by actively enforcing the ToS anyway. While someone has to wield the ruler, too often I've seen mod's do too little in trying to maintain the higher ground.

As a self-employed guy, I've always insisted on a clear "original agreement" before entering into any business deals/arrangements. It's inevitable that, sooner or later, the deal will go sideways, if only temporarily. So the original agreement serves as the one and only feature that keeps the parties on track. And for forums such as this, the "original agreement" would be a very clear and very thorough and actively enforced ToS.
 
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