What does Jesus mean when he says

[Barny]

Barny you misunderstand me,
I know that God's gift is perfect and we have the perfect righteousness of God in Christ, and I agree with what you have said. The problem is not in the gift but in our faith. I'm saying that our actions are a product of our faith not the other way around.
When I say tha sanctification is a process of change coming from within it is Christ Jesus that is within.

I want to say more on this but I am out of time right now and will continue later.

I acknowledge that you see sanctification as a process of change coming from within. But I disagree with your claim. Instead we see Heb 10:10 saying that Christians have been sanctified by the offering of Christ. So scripture shows us that it's not a process.

I do agree with you that a Christian's behavior often does improve as we grow. But this is not a process of sanctification.

 

[Barny]

Who says lying is bad? And I agree it doesn't bring you to condemnation, and I agree that God will discipline you for it. But why is it bad? Is there a standard that you're not telling me about?.

Here's that standard, which you are already aware of.
1 John 3:22, 23
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

I know what the vision is referring to but you miss my point, why did Peter refuse? He is filled with the Holy Spirit and knows the truth, why would he refuse to do something that the Lord is telling him to do and be so adamant about it? Wouldn't that put him under the law by your definition? And why would the Lord use a vision of unclean animals to teach a lesson if there is no such thing?.

There are many warnings in scripture against turning back to the law. The law is even described in various different ways, often referring to just one aspect of the law in describing it. There are scriptures that refer to the law in terms of circumcision, or in the 10 commandments, or even in its sacrifices, etc.

But note Gal 5:9
"A little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12), leavens the whole lump"
Here God warns that just a little of the law can corrupt you.

As for Peter, yes he did get confronted for dabbling with the law still.
Note also Gal 2:11-18
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentile, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, (justification by works of the law) I make myself a transgressor. (sinner)
Here we see Peter was confronted for slipping back under the law.
The law is a stumbling block to Christians, and Satan knows this and always tries to deceive us back in to deeds of the law. And we see this often in modern day churches. They preach grace, but, they add to this a works doctrine stating if anyone slips up too often in disobeying the 10 commandments/law then such persons are condemned/lost.

My last point. What is Jesus doing right now? Is He not in heaven fulfilling the role of High Priest? The role of High Priest is in the law. According to the Law the High Priest can only marry a virgin, and according to the New Testament Jesus will only accept a pure bride. Why? Is Jesus still fulfilling the Law carrying on the duties of High Priest for us? According to Revelations the elders are still performing the duties of Law bringing our prayers before the Ark. John eating the book in Revelations is a picture of the Jealousy Ritual in Num 5:12-31 in the Law. The trumpets are blown according to the Law, The seals are opened according to the Law. Everything in heaven is fulfilling the Law but not us, Why?.

Because Christ is our covering. He did it for us. And we enter in to His rest.
Heb 3:14
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence (believing in Jesus) stedfast unto the end;"

If we are going to judge whether we are a "pure bride", based on our physical behavior, then none of us will make it.
That's why we crucified the old man, Rom 6:6. It's dead because of sin, Rom 8:10. So we should not judge our righteousness/worthiness by it's behavior.

 

[Barny]

I agree that this is the definition of fornication in the bible. It says what ever the Gentiles sacrifice is to devils, because they were all pagan cultures. This has nothing to do with being under the law but gentiles worshiping idols and Israel partaking in meat that the gentiles sacrificed to idols.

The physical Jews are Gentiles. They are no different to pagans. Their sacrifices were to devils,as 1Cor 10 describes.
Rom 2:28,29
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jesus even said to the Pharisees (physical Jews) they have the devil as their father.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

 

[papajim]

I acknowledge that you see sanctification as a process of change coming from within. But I disagree with your claim. Instead we see Heb 10:10 saying that Christians have been sanctified by the offering of Christ. So scripture shows us that it's not a process.

I do agree with you that a Christian's behavior often does improve as we grow. But this is not a process of sanctification.

Our actions are a product of our faith As our faith grows our actions also grow according to our faith. Yes we have been sanctified in Christ already but it is our characters that show what we really believe. Righteousness comes by faith if we believe this then our actions will support what we believe.

You have mentions the 7 churches in Revelation, in the leter to each church is written "to him that overcometh" and to the church of Laodicea Rev.3:21 Jesus says To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne". As I understand what you are saying is that there is nothing to overcome. Jesus pinpoints that we are to walk as he walked we are to overcome sin as He overcame sin, through works of the law? no, through faith. It is through faith that we overcome sin. If I sin it is though unbelief in what I have already been given, the perfect righteousness of Christ.

 

[DHC]

Our actions are a product of our faith As our faith grows our actions also grow according to our faith. Yes we have been sanctified in Christ already but it is our characters that show what we really believe. Righteousness comes by faith if we believe this then our actions will support what we believe.

You have mentions the 7 churches in Revelation, in the leter to each church is written "to him that overcometh" and to the church of Laodicea Rev.3:21 Jesus says To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne". As I understand what you are saying is that there is nothing to overcome. Jesus pinpoints that we are to walk as he walked we are to overcome sin as He overcame sin, through works of the law? no, through faith. It is through faith that we overcome sin. If I sin it is though unbelief in what I have already been given, the perfect righteousness of Christ.

Hello Papajim.

1 John 5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God you have already overcome
the world. You are perfect in Christ hence the victory is yours in Christ.

Now for the Laodicean church.


Revelations 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich;
and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness
may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the
door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame
and sat down with My Father on His throne.


The laodicean church was naked, unclothed, and blind, which are terms that
describe unbelief in Jesus. Jesus is knocking at the door and the Laodiceans
must open the door, that is believe in Jesus. Overcoming the world is believing
in Jesus.

 

[papajim]

Thank you DHC,
You have given me a good answer now let's look at your answer a little closer. "Whosoever is born of God overcomes the world" What is in the world that we need to overcome, and if we have already recieved the victory why do we need to overcome, and what does it mean to overcome?
What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Satan believes that Jesus is the son of God, so there must be more to it than just believing as you have presented it. What does it mean to be in Christ? If I have the victory it seems that I am involved in this. Is it hypothetical or superficial is it an actual occurence that I participate in? what does it mean? What is righteousness? How is this practical in my life?

These are only a few questions that need to be answered, however you still did not answer my question. What is it that Jesus overcame? He said that we need to overcome as He overcame? Did Jesus only overcome the world?

 

[Barny]

Our actions are a product of our faith As our faith grows our actions also grow according to our faith. Yes we have been sanctified in Christ already but it is our characters that show what we really believe. Righteousness comes by faith if we believe this then our actions will support what we believe.

You have mentions the 7 churches in Revelation, in the leter to each church is written "to him that overcometh" and to the church of Laodicea Rev.3:21 Jesus says To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne". As I understand what you are saying is that there is nothing to overcome. Jesus pinpoints that we are to walk as he walked we are to overcome sin as He overcame sin, through works of the law? no, through faith. It is through faith that we overcome sin. If I sin it is though unbelief in what I have already been given, the perfect righteousness of Christ.

The answer DHC provided in post #285 above shows from scripture how we overcome.

This physical life we go through is a wilderness experience similar to what the Jews went through when they left Egypt. And many of them did not make it to the promised land. Why? Because of unbelief.

Note Heb 3:12-19
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (unbelief)
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence (believing in Jesus) stedfast unto the end;

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

The sin that the world is convicted of is the sin of unbelief, John 16:9.
Unbelief includes turning back to being under the law, and there are many warnings in scripture against doing this. "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." We should not be provoking God as the Jews did in the wilderness.
That is why God even says we should not even fellowship with those who preach the law. We should put away such wicked persons, 1Cor 5:9,11,13.
Remember, only "a little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump" .

We overcome the world when we believe in Jesus, 1John 5:4,5
When we believe in Jesus we're made partakers of him, Heb 3:14
Hence we "exhort one another daily" to remain stedfast in believing in Jesus.

2Cor 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
This walk of faith is believing in Jesus. Our works are to believe in Jesus.
In Jesus we're:
Righteous, Rom 4:5,
Holy, Rom 11:16,
Sanctified, Heb 10:10,
Perfected, Heb 10:14,
Cannot sin, 1John 3:9.

But if we're doubting God's promise because we expect to see physical proof in our behavior/lifestyle, then that is not of faith.
Our old man is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10. Henceforth we regard nobody according to the flesh, as we're a new creation, 2Cor 5:16. We should see ourselves as God sees us. We're totally cleansed/purged of sin by Christ's perfect sacrifice. We (the new creation) have ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1. As for our imperfect physical body, it's dead (by faith) because of sin.

Believe in Jesus

 

[brakelite]

The answer DHC provided in post #285 above shows from scripture how we overcome.

This physical life we go through is a wilderness experience similar to what the Jews went through when they left Egypt. And many of them did not make it to the promised land. Why? Because of unbelief.

Note Heb 3:12-19
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (unbelief)
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence (believing in Jesus) stedfast unto the end;

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

The sin that the world is convicted of is the sin of unbelief, John 16:9.
Unbelief includes turning back to being under the law, and there are many warnings in scripture against doing this. "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." We should not be provoking God as the Jews did in the wilderness.
That is why God even says we should not even fellowship with those who preach the law. We should put away such wicked persons, 1 Cor 5:9, 11, 13
Remember, only "a little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump" .

We overcome the world when we believe in Jesus, 1 John 5:4, 5When we believe in Jesus we're made partakers of him, Heb 3:14
Hence we "exhort one another daily" to remain stedfast in believing in Jesus.

2 Cor 5:7 I]"For we walk by faith, not by sight"
[/I]This walk of faith is believing in Jesus. Our works are to believe in Jesus.
In Jesus we're:
Righteous, Rom 4:5,
Holy, Rom 11:16,
Sanctified, Heb 10:10,
Perfected, Heb 10:14,
Cannot sin, 1 John 3:9

But if we're doubting God's promise because we expect to see physical proof in our behavior/lifestyle, then that is not of faith.
Our old man is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10. Henceforth we regard nobody according to the flesh, as we're a new creation, 2 Cor 5:16 We should see ourselves as God sees us. We're totally cleansed/purged of sin by Christ's perfect sacrifice. We (the new creation) have ceased from sin, 1 Pet 4:1 As for our imperfect physical body, it's dead (by faith) because of sin.

Believe in Jesus

I can accept all the above, with a few misgivings about that one highlighted sentence. I would suggest, nay would state categorically, that if you have doubts about God's promises, you will definitely not see any change in lifestyle. Jesus promised that there would be fruit growing from the branch that abides in Him. Jesus is a healthy tree. For he who is grafted to the tree the growth of fruit , that is practical physical real experiential improvement in behaviour/lifestyle practices, is inevitable and as natural as apples growing from an apple tree. As branches we do not need to be concerned however with the growth of fruit. We don't need strive to grow fruit...it is a natural consequence of being attached to the tree. All we needto focus on isour relationship. To abide. That is our work. Our faith is holding on to God's promises. Believing that what He has promised, will surely come to pass. He has promised fruit. We believe that promise, it happens. period. Fruit therefore, for he who believes, is something he indeed can expect and look forward to and rejoice in. They are the impartaion of Christ's own righteousness. This is the beauty of the full gospel. :smiley:

 

[Barny]

I can accept all the above, with a few misgivings about that one highlighted sentence. I would suggest, nay would state categorically, that if you have doubts about God's promises, you will definitely not see any change in lifestyle. Jesus promised that there would be fruit growing from the branch that abides in Him. Jesus is a healthy tree. For he who is grafted to the tree the growth of fruit , that is practical physical real experiential improvement in behaviour/lifestyle practices, is inevitable and as natural as apples growing from an apple tree. As branches we do not need to be concerned however with the growth of fruit. We don't need strive to grow fruit...it is a natural consequence of being attached to the tree. All we needto focus on isour relationship. To abide. That is our work. Our faith is holding on to God's promises. Believing that what He has promised, will surely come to pass. He has promised fruit. We believe that promise, it happens. period. Fruit therefore, for he who believes, is something he indeed can expect and look forward to and rejoice in. They are the impartaion of Christ's own righteousness. This is the beauty of the full gospel. :smiley:

Hi brakelite,

The term "impartation" of righteousness is an Adventist term that is not found in scripture. And we know that Adventist type doctrines call for works of the law as proof one is righteous and saved.

Anyone who knows Adventists and other similar denominations, knows that they do not keep the commandments. Yet Adventists and those who follow similar doctrines, argue that failure to keep the commandments proves that one is lost.

This contradiction within their doctrines is one which they cannot answer for.

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite, The term "impartation" of righteousness is an Adventist term that is not found in scripture. And we know that Adventist type doctrines call for works of the law as proof one is righteous and saved.

Arthur W. Pink (a staunch Calvinist) says: Justification and sanctification are never separated; where God imputes the righteousness of Christ, He also imparts a principle of holiness, the latter being the fruit or consequence of the former; both being necessary before we can be admitted into heaven. Because the blood of Christ has met every claim of God upon and against His people, its virtues and purifying effects are applied to them by His Spirit…..for the blood of Christ is not merely, so to speak, the key unlocking the Holy of Holies to Him as our High Priest and Redeemer, it is not merely our ransom by which we are delivered out of bondage, and freed from the curse, are brought nigh unto God; but it also separates us from death and sin. It is incorruptable, always cleansing and vivifying; through this blood we are separated from the evil world, and overcome; by this blood we keep our garments white. (John 6:53; Rev 7:14)

Anyone who knows Adventists and other similar denominations, knows that they do not keep the commandments.

I must assume that you are serious when you make this most sweeping generalization, and not joking. It suggests to me that you actually believe there is no-one on this earth, Christian or not, who is obeying God's commandments! So I will ask you a question. Who is Jesus refering to when He says of the last day church which He will receive to Himself when He comes...Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This is a group of people who are keeping God's commandments. Who are they Barney?

Yet Adventists and those who follow similar doctrines, argue that failure to keep the commandments proves that one is lost.

For a non-Christian Barney, yes, of course this is true. Sin brings death. I would be astounded however Barney if you could provide any Adventist writings in proof of this claim for a repentant born again Christian. Should be easy for you if it were true...EG Whites entire works are available free online for you to peruse through and find such an example of what you say. Let me know how you get on.
Perhaps you could ponder the significance of this passage Barney...
Phill. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

A couple of questions for you Barney. Whose righteousness is it in the passage above? Is Paul praying that we should receive it? Are they fruit, the natural result of an intimate relationship with Jesus? And finally, is that therefore not imparted righteousness?

 

[Barny]

Arthur W. Pink (a staunch Calvinist) says: Justification and sanctification are never separated; where God imputes the righteousness of Christ, He also imparts a principle of holiness, the latter being the fruit or consequence of the former; both being necessary before we can be admitted into heaven. Because the blood of Christ has met every claim of God upon and against His people, its virtues and purifying effects are applied to them by His Spirit…..for the blood of Christ is not merely, so to speak, the key unlocking the Holy of Holies to Him as our High Priest and Redeemer, it is not merely our ransom by which we are delivered out of bondage, and freed from the curse, are brought nigh unto God; but it also separates us from death and sin. It is incorruptable, always cleansing and vivifying; through this blood we are separated from the evil world, and overcome; by this blood we keep our garments white. (John 6:53; Rev 7:14)

We continue to see that there is no scripture using the term "imparted" righteousness.

Can you answer this question to clarify this "imparted" righteousness doctrine. How much evidence in lifestyle/behavior confirms that we have "imparted" righteousness and therefore are saved?
Many Christians, for example, do not keep the Saturday Sabbath. Are they therefore lacking "imparted" righteousness?

I must assume that you are serious when you make this most sweeping generalization, and not joking. It suggests to me that you actually believe there is no-one on this earth, Christian or not, who is obeying God's commandments! So I will ask you a question. Who is Jesus refering to when He says of the last day church which He will receive to Himself when He comes...Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This is a group of people who are keeping God's commandments. Who are they Barney?

Adventists do vary in their views. Some are legalistic and others not so.
I know many Adventists (both legalistic and non-legalistic) and none of them have perfect obedience to the law.
To "keep" the law means to obey it perfectly. Just one offense makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10.
Yet, we see Adventists argue that we are to keep the law, but then they admit that they fail to keep it.

Brakelite, have you obeyed the law perfectly since the day you received Christ?

To answer your question, it refers to Christians. We show the work of the law written on our hearts, Rom 2:15

Sin brings death. I would be astounded however Barney if you could provide any Adventist writings in proof of this claim for a repentant born again Christian. Should be easy for you if it were true...EG Whites entire works are available free online for you to peruse through and find such an example of what you say. Let me know how you get on.

My discussions with other Adventists have shown to me that they reject the notion that Christians are saved by only believing in Jesus. These Adventists have claimed that without a good lifestyle, obeying the law/commandments, then we're lost.
But, to save time, perhaps you can answer this question directly rather than my searching through the writings of E.G White.

My earlier question would suffice.
If a Christian never keeps the Saturday Sabbath holy, in spite of hearing from many Adventists why we should, are they saved?

Perhaps you could ponder the significance of this passage Barney...
Phill. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

A couple of questions for you Barney. Whose righteousness is it in the passage above? Is Paul praying that we should receive it? Are they fruit, the natural result of an intimate relationship with Jesus? And finally, is that therefore not imparted righteousness?

There is only one righteousness. The righteousness which is of God by faith. The same righteousness that all Christians have by faith, whether they be the thief on the cross or Paul.

Paul is not praying for Christians to receive righteousness. This would contradict Rom 4:5, which says that our faith is already counted for righteousness.
Instead Paul is praying for our love for God to abound and that we will be without offense till the day of Christ.

Note Paul's prayer also in Phil 1:4,5
Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now

And what offense are we to avoid until the day of Christ?
It's unbelief in Jesus. This is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
We are to fight the good fight of faith, believing in Jesus.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (Rom 10:9)
in the presence of many witnesses. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus)without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,


It's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
And mixing grace with works of the law is being lukewarm (Rev 3:15,16) and is unbelief.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.

But as you believe Phil 1 refers to keeping the law as fruit of (imparted) righteousness, can you answer my previous questions regarding how much obedience determines this?

If a Christian never keeps the Saturday Sabbath holy, in spite of hearing Adventists declaring why we should, are they showing by their works that they do not have "imparted" righteousness?

.Please excuse the messy post. Finding it a struggle for the computer/web site/whatever to keep a standard format or even to quote your posts properly.

 

[james1523]

I'm not Adventist and I believe in imparted righteousness because it's in the bible and the English words "imparted" and "righteousness" together are the best way to describe it.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not Adventist and I believe in imparted righteousness because it's in the bible and the English words "imparted" and "righteousness" together are the best way to describe it.

I'm not doubting you, but what does "imparted" righteousness mean exactly? Do you have any scriptures as examples?
There are many scriptures that say faith is counted as righteousness, I also see living by righteousness, weapons of righteousness, hope of righteousness, breastplate of righteousness, harvest of righteousness.
In your opinion, is being righteous the same thing as being forgiven, or is it something different?

 

[Barny]

I'm not Adventist and I believe in imparted righteousness because it's in the bible and the English words "imparted" and "righteousness" together are the best way to describe it.

Hi James,

Like B-A-C, I'm trying to find out the details of what is "imparted" righteousness.
Do you have scripture referring to it?

And how is "imparted" righteousness determined?

I asked of brakelite what level of good behavior/obedience to the law determines if someone has "imparted" righteousness?
Adventists and others following similar doctrines, often claim that unless we have this "imparted" righteousness then we do not abide in Christ.
Since (according to Adventists, etc) our salvation requires this proof of "imparted" righteousness for salvation, then it's important that we have scripture confirming such doctrines and giving detail about it.

 

[DHC]

What is sin?

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,
so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The law given to Israel was never intended to grant eternal life, the purpose of the law
was to expose the problem with mankind, i.e., sin.

Romans 7
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do,
but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me,
but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Anyone who thinks they can obey the ten commandments in thought and deed, is
deceived. On the contrary the whole purpose of the law is to expose sin for what it really is.

'For I know that nothing good dwells in me'

Paul knew the law was good, in his mind he agreed it was good. But the harsh
reality was Paul did not and could not obey the law.

'For the good that I want, I do not do'

Paul discovered that he was in fact doing the opposite of what the law required.

'but I practice the very evil that I do not want'

In Paul's case the law had achieevd exactly what the law was intended to achieve.
Paul knew he could not obey the law, Paul was an evil man, Paul was in conflict.
Paul knew the law was good in his mind but something else was occurring.

'but I am doing the very thing I hate'

Anyone who believes that as a Christian they can obey the ten commandments
is deeply deceived. I am perplexed that anyone would even attempt to offer
the concept of obedience to the ten commandments.

Only when a person tries to obey the ten commandments does a person
discover that failure is the only outcome. The purpose of the ten commandments
that were given to Israel was to expose the sinfulness of the human heart.

Was the history of Israel not laid out before us as an example of the failure
of humanity to obey written law. Even King David, the very king of Israel,
a man after God's own heart, chosen by God. Was simply an evil creature
who murdered to satisfy his own lust.

Romans 7
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me?
May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin
by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through
the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Case closed, the law condemns, the law is the ministry of death!!!

 

[DHC]

Hi James,

Like B-A-C, I'm trying to find out the details of what is "imparted" righteousness.
Do you have scripture referring to it?

And how is "imparted" righteousness determined?

I asked of brakelite what level of good behavior/obedience to the law determines if someone has "imparted" righteousness?
Adventists and others following similar doctrines, often claim that unless we have this "imparted" righteousness then we do not abide in Christ.
Since (according to Adventists, etc) our salvation requires this proof of "imparted" righteousness for salvation, then it's important that we have scripture confirming such doctrines and giving detail about it.

Hello Barny.

Hope you are well.

Just looked up 'imparted righteousness' using wikipedia.

Imparted righteousness, in Methodist theology, is that gracious gift of God given at the moment of the new birth which enables a Christian disciple to strive for holiness and sanctification.
John Wesley believed that imparted righteousness worked in tandem with imputed righteousness. Imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enabling the Christian to be justified; imparted righteousness is what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification (and, in Wesleyan thought, Christian perfection).

Interesting theology though I doubt whether it is correct.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Righteousness is only the righteousness of Christ which we receive when we believe.

 

[Barny]

Hello Barny.

Hope you are well.

Just looked up 'imparted righteousness' using wikipedia.

Imparted righteousness, in Methodist theology, is that gracious gift of God given at the moment of the new birth which enables a Christian disciple to strive for holiness and sanctification.
John Wesley believed that imparted righteousness worked in tandem with imputed righteousness. Imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enabling the Christian to be justified; imparted righteousness is what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification (and, in Wesleyan thought, Christian perfection).

Interesting theology though I doubt whether it is correct.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Righteousness is only the righteousness of Christ which we receive when we believe.

Hi DHC,

I agree that "imparted" righteousness is error.
Those arguing for "imparted" righteousness use it to lead into a lukewarm doctrine mixing grace and works of the law, for righteousness.

This error doctrine saying that "imparted" righteousness enables a believer to " strive for holiness and sanctification", suggests a lack of understanding that it was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us, making us holy.

Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Whenever I ask for what minimum standard of obedience to the law of righteousness is required as proof that we have this imparted righteousness (and therefore salvation), I get either ambiguous responses or no response at all. It's a doctrine that's clearly not supported in scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

Now I'm even more confused. (Some days it doesn't take much)
I would have thought imparted righteousness, simply means Christ's righteousness is our righteousness.
Someone else posted a thread on here, something about "As He Is, so Are We". The thought seems to be that we are seen just as righteous as Christ is in God's eyes.

Rom 3:21; But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24; being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27; Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29; Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30; since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 3:31; Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Rom 4:6; just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7; "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8; "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Rom 4:9; Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

I would have thought the verses above imply "imparted righteousness".

Rom 10:10; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Now I wonder if righteousness, is a separate thing from salvation.

 

[Barny]

Now I'm even more confused. (Some days it doesn't take much)
I would have thought imparted righteousness, simply means Christ's righteousness is our righteousness.
Someone else posted a thread on here, something about "As He Is, so Are We". The thought seems to be that we are seen just as righteous as Christ is in God's eyes.

Rom 3:21; But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24; being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27; Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29; Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30; since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 3:31; Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Rom 4:6; just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7; "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8; "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Rom 4:9; Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

I would have thought the verses above imply "imparted righteousness".

Rom 10:10; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Now I wonder if righteousness, is a separate thing from salvation.

The confusion you noted on the topic of "imparted" righteousness comes from those who added the word "Imparted" and made a error doctrine around it. God warns us not to add or take away from His word.

The "imparted" righteousness doctrine is usually used in the context of being evidence through perfect obedience or some slightly lessor ambiguous level of obedience, to the law. Thus it's argued that without a display of this required obedience to the law, then one is not abiding in Christ and therefore lost.

But, the scripture you quoted refers to imputed righteousness instead.
Rom 4:5,6 says it clearly.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

As Christians "have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb 10:10) why then doubt this by adding that we also have to attain some supposed "imparted" righteousness which enables us to "strive for holiness and sanctification", as Methodist theology proclaims?

Trust God when He says that Christ's sacrifice sanctified us, making us holy.
Trust God when He says that righteousness has been imputed to us.
There's no need to add to His word on this.

 

[DHC]

Now I'm even more confused. (Some days it doesn't take much)
I would have thought imparted righteousness, simply means Christ's righteousness is our righteousness.
Someone else posted a thread on here, something about "As He Is, so Are We". The thought seems to be that we are seen just as righteous as Christ is in God's eyes.

Rom 3:21; But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24; being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27; Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29; Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30; since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 3:31; Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Rom 4:6; just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7; "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8; "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Rom 4:9; Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

I would have thought the verses above imply "imparted righteousness".

Rom 10:10; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Now I wonder if righteousness, is a separate thing from salvation.

Hello B-A-C.

What is righteousness?

None other than perfection in everything, absolute holiness.

As Christ was perfect (righteous) in all ways, so we are perfect (righteous) in all ways also.

It is not the seen, observable, fleshly realm of our own unrighteous behavior that we
rely on, trust or measure. But the unseen, hidden, spiritual reality of Christ in us, in which
we live and breath. We wear the breast plate of Christ's righteousness not our own unrighteousness.

The Righteousness of Christ is a gift from God to us who believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more
those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in
life through the One, Jesus Christ.

We receive the 'gift of righteousness' given to us by Christ.

Solely through the Gospel is the attainment of perfection itself.

Righteousness is the breast plate that we wear and is the armor of God.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with
the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Salvation is the reward for those who are righteous, and we are righteous
due only to the belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This absolute righteousness
is spiritual and it is not understood by the carnal mind of man. Hence the historical
explosion of theological debate on the subject of righteousness.

Righteousness is not the endless fleshly striving for perfect legal righteousness in Christ.

We do not on a daily basis whip ourselves into a frenzy of holiness.

Strangely the truth is the exact opposite, a perfect righteousness only given to those
who believe in Jesus Christ. One who has Christ within is holy, is righteous, is perfect.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive
because of righteousness.

Our flesh is dead in Christ and so is any attempt at a personal righteousness in Christ.

Can we achieve the righteousness of Christ with good behavior?

Isaiah 64
6 And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy rags;

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law,
then Christ died needlessly.

Legal adherence is often practiced by many denominations to measure righteousness.

Legal adherence in the spirit is the antithesis of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is an abonimation, the hybrid Gospel of Christ plus the added law of righteousness.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law.

The law condemns, the ministry of death condemns, no one is righteous or can be
self righteous in God's sight. There is only one righteousness available and that is
the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own,
they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,
but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing
by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness
and holiness of the truth.

Stop whipping the flesh and dive into the true righteousness (perfection) found only in the Gospel
of Jesus Christ. You are a new creation, without fault and eternal in the spirit of Christ.

You are either perfect in Christ or you are not perfect in Christ. Fence sitting or if you like
luke warmness is not permitted.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.