What Happened?

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

jiggyfly said:
I agree with you DJ the "word of faith" teachings are mostly about "self" and is often referred to as the "gospel of self" or the "self help gospel".
The "word of faith" supporters here are a minority so dont be discouraged.

LOL As long as the two of you remember that agreeing on something does not make you right.

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The following is a list of healing scriptures

Exodus 15:26 Mark 11:23-24
Exodus 23:25 Mark 16:17-18
Deuteronomy 7:15 John 10:10
Deuteronomy 28:1-14, 61 Romans 4:17-20

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 Romans 8:11
I Kings 8:56 2 Corinthians 10:4-5
Psalm 91:16 Galatians 3:13-14
Psalm 103:3 Ephesians 6:10-17
Psalm 107:20 Philippians 2:13
Psalm 118:17 Philippians 4:6-7
Proverbs 4:20-23 II Timothy 1:7
Isaiah 41:10 Hebrews 10:23
Isaiah 53:4-5 Hebrews 10:35
Jeremiah 1:12 Hebrews 11:11
Jeremiah 30:17 Hebrews 13:8
Joel 3:10 James 5:14-15
Nahum 1:9 I Peter 2: 24
Matthew 8:2-3 I John 3:21-22
Matthew 8:17 III John 2
Matthew 18:18-19 Revelations 12:11
Matthew 21:21

Boanerges · Oct 25, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
I'm not sure what your point is Bo. Paul raised them up by faith and in obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit. I wonder what he would have done if the Holy Spirit had not told him to do that? Do you think he would even have tried to do that?

This is my point- one day someone you love will get sick and die-it will happen. Is that your fault or theirs? Since everyone of us will die are we all deficient in our faith? To tell someone who lost a loved one it is their fault is not only cruel but a denial of reality. It is a crule blow indeed to inflict calous talk on the grieving when in fact we should mourn their loss with them (Rom 12:15) instead of rubbing salt in an open wound.

Let me give you a good example of what I have experienced:
My brother was 36 when he developed terminal leukemia. I was fasting, praying and believing for a healing. My brother in law invited me to a prayer meeting and as we prayed two things happened:
1. He declared that God is going to heal my brother! Instantly he tells the whole family this is so but sadly it was not to be so.
2. At the same time the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying " I can heal his body or save his soul". I replied Lord save his soul first and then his body if possible.
My brother was the biggest, strongest man I have ever met and had once picked my 225 pound frame of the floor with one hand. God was humbling him and he was not hearing.
Well my brother became weak as a baby loosing over 100 pounds and barely able to move. He died in my arms one night strangling to death on his own blood but before doing so he gave his life to Christ. God worked even this unfortunate situation for good.
I went home and knelt beside my bed weeping and praying when the most wonderful thing happened. The Holy Spirit blew into my room like a strong breeze and as He passed over me I sensed, smelled, and felt everything that was the essence of my brother. I heard the Holy Spirit plainly say "do not worry, he is with me now" and with that they both went up.
I have laid hands on others and seen miracles of healing so faith for healing was not a problem. In my brothers case it was time for him to go home and be with his Lord. The great thing for me is I will get to see both of them relatively soon!
So in summation-
I believe in healing.
Everyone has enough faith as God gave all a measure and He does not short change us.
Sometimes it is your appointed time to go home (Heb 9:27). To live past His will for your life can produce a Manasseh which will cause great grief (2Ki 20:1-21:17).

The Robster · Oct 25, 2010

jiggyfly said:
So why do you mix in scriptures that are clearly part of the "old covenant" with Israel, are you Jewish?

Lots of people were getting healed after the resurrection after the NEW COVENANT. Those "Old Covenant" scriptures sure are pretty powerful. I mean Jesus healing NON CHRISTIANS under OLD COVENANT. WOW! And we're Christians, how much more do we have with the perfect work of Christ?

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

Boanerges said:
This is my point- one day someone you love will get sick and die-it will happen. Is that your fault or theirs? Since everyone of us will die are we all deficient in our faith? To tell someone who lost a loved one it is their fault is not only cruel but a denial of reality. It is a crule blow indeed to inflict calous talk on the grieving when in fact we should mourn their loss with them (Rom 12:15) instead of rubbing salt in an open wound.

Let me give you a good example of what I have experienced:
My brother was 36 when he developed terminal leukemia. I was fasting, praying and believing for a healing. My brother in law invited me to a prayer meeting and as we prayed two things happened:
1. He declared that God is going to heal my brother! Instantly he tells the whole family this is so but sadly it was not to be so.
2. At the same time the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying " I can heal his body or save his soul". I replied Lord save his soul first and then his body if possible.
My brother was the biggest, strongest man I have ever met and had once picked my 225 pound frame of the floor with one hand. God was humbling him and he was not hearing.
Well my brother became weak as a baby loosing over 100 pounds and barely able to move. He died in my arms one night strangling to death on his own blood but before doing so he gave his life to Christ. God worked even this unfortunate situation for good.
I went home and knelt beside my bed weeping and praying when the most wonderful thing happened. The Holy Spirit blew into my room like a strong breeze and as He passed over me I sensed, smelled, and felt everything that was the essence of my brother. I heard the Holy Spirit plainly say "do not worry, he is with me now" and with that they both went up.
I have laid hands on others and seen miracles of healing so faith for healing was not a problem. In my brothers case it was time for him to go home and be with his Lord. The great thing for me is I will get to see both of them relatively soon!
So in summation-
I believe in healing.
Everyone has enough faith as God gave all a measure and He does not short change us.
Sometimes it is your appointed time to go home (Heb 9:27). To live past His will for your life can produce a Manasseh which will cause great grief (2Ki 20:1-21:17).

Bo I really am not one to attach blame for a bad occurrence. Satan is the one though who came to steal, kill, and destroy. Its his fault if someone gets sick and dies. Simple as that.

On the other hand, we as Christians have the right and authority to choose the time and manner of our passing. simple as that.

I'm not about to say that your faith is missing if you don't get healed. I don't know where you are spiritually. I will say though that "These signs shall follow them that believe..." Mark 16:17-18

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

We Have the Authority

Our Position of Authority as Believers
When you made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life, Colossians 1:13 says you were delivered from the power of darkness. The word power is literally translated “authority.” You have been delivered from the power, or authority, of darkness and placed into God’s kingdom. Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore...” (Matthew 28:18-19). That power was given to you as part of your inheritance in Christ Jesus. You have entered into this position of authority because you are in Him.
The Word says that righteousness has come upon all men (Romans 5:18). You may ask, “Then why don’t all become righteous?” Because in order to receive it, you have to act on righteousness from the point of authority.

Nov. 2, 1962, I used my authority as a human being and made a choice. I made the decision to receive Jesus as Lord of my life. At that moment, the righteousness that had been upon me came inside me. I was made the righteousness of God in Christ. II Corinthians 5:21 says, “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Jesus Secured Our Power and Authority

Jesus succeeded in securing all power by going to the cross, dying a horrible death, suffering the penalty for sin and defeating Satan in the pit of hell. He came to earth as a man for one reason: to recapture the authority Satan had stolen through Adam’s disobedience in the Garden. Jesus was called the last Adam (I Corinthians 15:45). After securing that power and authority, He freely gave it over into the hands of those who would believe on Him—you and me.

It is not enough for us to simply accept Jesus’ work at Calvary. We are held responsible for much more. Jesus’ words in Mark 16 were not intended for the early Church alone. His words are just as vital and real today as when they were first spoken.

Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection from the dead. His words to them form the basic foundation for the work of the New Testament Church. It was at that time He delegated the authority to carry out that work. Beginning in verse 15, Jesus said: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover” (Mark 16:15-18).

We Have Authority to Preach the Gospel

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Every born-again believer has the authority and responsibility to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ in this earth. If you can’t go, you can send someone in your place.

“And these signs shall follow them that believe....” Notice who is to do all these things: them that believe. The signs will follow the believers who act in faith and boldly speak in Jesus’ Name. They shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall lay hands on the sick. Believers are the ones with the power and authority to do these things.

Verse 20 says, “They went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.” God will confirm His Word, but first it has to be spoken forth. That is where you and I come in. God does not preach; He has given us the authority to do the preaching. God will not lay hands on the sick. He will bring the healing, but you and I as believers must lay hands on the sick by faith, believing God will perform His Word.

We Have Authority to Stand Against Satan

One of the most vital areas of the believer’s authority is his power to successfully stand against Satan. Ephesians 4:27 says, “Neither give place to the devil.” In Ephesians 6, the Apostle Paul describes the armor that we as believers are to wear in combat against Satan. He explains each piece of that armor. It is the armor of God. But not once does he say that God will put the armor on you or that God will fight the devil for you. You is the understood subject of these verses. He says, “[You] be strong in the Lord…. [You] put on the whole armour of God, that [you] may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [You] take the whole armour of God, that [you] may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, [you] stand.” God has given you the power and the authority to stand against Satan and his destructive works. He has provided the armor, but it is your responsibility as a believer to put on that armor and stand against the devil. James 4:7 says, “[You] resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” The armor and the weapons are at your disposal. God is there with you to back His Word; but all that is worthless unless you take your position of authority and assume the responsibility to use what He has provided. You have the power and the authority to take the Word of God, the Name of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit and run Satan out of your affairs. Don’t pray and ask God to fight Satan for you. You are the one in authority. Take your responsibility and speak directly to Satan yourself and stand your ground firmly. He will flee!

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
Our Position of Authority as Believers
When you made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life, Colossians 1:13 says you were delivered from the power of darkness. The word power is literally translated “authority.” You have been delivered from the power, or authority, of darkness and placed into God’s kingdom. Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore...” (Matthew 28:18-19). That power was given to you as part of your inheritance in Christ Jesus. You have entered into this position of authority because you are in Him.
The Word says that righteousness has come upon all men (Romans 5:18). You may ask, “Then why don’t all become righteous?” Because in order to receive it, you have to act on righteousness from the point of authority.

Nov. 2, 1962, I used my authority as a human being and made a choice. I made the decision to receive Jesus as Lord of my life. At that moment, the righteousness that had been upon me came inside me. I was made the righteousness of God in Christ. II Corinthians 5:21 says, “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Jesus Secured Our Power and Authority

Jesus succeeded in securing all power by going to the cross, dying a horrible death, suffering the penalty for sin and defeating Satan in the pit of hell. He came to earth as a man for one reason: to recapture the authority Satan had stolen through Adam’s disobedience in the Garden. Jesus was called the last Adam (I Corinthians 15:45). After securing that power and authority, He freely gave it over into the hands of those who would believe on Him—you and me.

It is not enough for us to simply accept Jesus’ work at Calvary. We are held responsible for much more. Jesus’ words in Mark 16 were not intended for the early Church alone. His words are just as vital and real today as when they were first spoken.

Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection from the dead. His words to them form the basic foundation for the work of the New Testament Church. It was at that time He delegated the authority to carry out that work. Beginning in verse 15, Jesus said: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover” (Mark 16:15-18).

We Have Authority to Preach the Gospel

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Every born-again believer has the authority and responsibility to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ in this earth. If you can’t go, you can send someone in your place.

“And these signs shall follow them that believe....” Notice who is to do all these things: them that believe. The signs will follow the believers who act in faith and boldly speak in Jesus’ Name. They shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall lay hands on the sick. Believers are the ones with the power and authority to do these things.

Verse 20 says, “They went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.” God will confirm His Word, but first it has to be spoken forth. That is where you and I come in. God does not preach; He has given us the authority to do the preaching. God will not lay hands on the sick. He will bring the healing, but you and I as believers must lay hands on the sick by faith, believing God will perform His Word.

We Have Authority to Stand Against Satan

One of the most vital areas of the believer’s authority is his power to successfully stand against Satan. Ephesians 4:27 says, “Neither give place to the devil.” In Ephesians 6, the Apostle Paul describes the armor that we as believers are to wear in combat against Satan. He explains each piece of that armor. It is the armor of God. But not once does he say that God will put the armor on you or that God will fight the devil for you. You is the understood subject of these verses. He says, “[You] be strong in the Lord…. [You] put on the whole armour of God, that [you] may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [You] take the whole armour of God, that [you] may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, [you] stand.” God has given you the power and the authority to stand against Satan and his destructive works. He has provided the armor, but it is your responsibility as a believer to put on that armor and stand against the devil. James 4:7 says, “[You] resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” The armor and the weapons are at your disposal. God is there with you to back His Word; but all that is worthless unless you take your position of authority and assume the responsibility to use what He has provided. You have the power and the authority to take the Word of God, the Name of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit and run Satan out of your affairs. Don’t pray and ask God to fight Satan for you. You are the one in authority. Take your responsibility and speak directly to Satan yourself and stand your ground firmly. He will flee!

We Are Seated With Him in High Authority

In Ephesians 1, Paul prayed a prayer for the body of believers in Ephesus. One part of that prayer was that they know “the exceeding greatness of his power to [those] who believe” (Ephesians 1:19). That exceeding great power is the same power that God used to raise Jesus from the dead and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenlies. Ephesians 1:21 tells us that Jesus is seated “far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named.”

The work God did in Jesus was supreme. He raised Jesus from the dead and set Him far above all other authority—not only in this world, but also in the heavenly world. Then verses 22-23 say that God has put all things under His feet and made Him head over the Church which is His body. Where are the feet? They are in the body. As believers, we are part of His body and we are seated with Him in that highly exalted place of authority. Praise God! Look at Ephesians 2: “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (verses 1, 5-6).

We are seated together with Him. Where? Far above all principality and power and might and dominion. As a believer, you have accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary. Therefore, you are part of His body and are seated with Him in that heavenly place, equipped with the same power, the same authority that He has.

The great power that God worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead is the same creative power of God that worked in you to make you alive when you were dead in your trespasses and sins. The moment you made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life, that same power was exercised on your dead, unregenerate spirit, causing it to be reborn in the likeness of God Himself. Any man who is in Christ Jesus is a new creation: old things have passed away, all things are new, and all things are of God (II Corinthians 5:17-18).

We Have the Power of God’s Word to Exercise Our Authority

And the same day, when the even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side. And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? (Mark 4:35-40).

Jesus spoke the words, “Let us pass over unto the other side,” and there was enough power and authority in those words to accomplish the job. One thing I want you to notice is that Jesus did not take command of the ship to see that His words were carried out. He walked to the back of the boat and went to sleep. Jesus delegated the authority to His disciples and they accepted it. But when the storm came, they were filled with fear that the boat would sink. Jesus had to carry out the responsibility of authority, which He had delegated to them, by rebuking the wind and the sea.

Do you see the parallel here? You are the captain of your ship. You have control over your own life—your spirit, your soul and your body. Jesus has delegated power, or authority, over Satan to you as a believer. You are to give him no place in your life. You are born of the Spirit of God. You are filled with the Spirit of God. You have been given the Word of God. Those three elements are enough for you to carry out your spiritual authority here in the earth. You don’t need any more power. You have all the power necessary. You simply have to exercise your authority. Jesus has already done everything necessary to secure the authority and power over sin, sickness, demons and fear. You have to employ the faith action to receive that authority and join forces with Him in this earth. You are the one to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.

We Have Authority to Act as New Creations

Hebrews 2:14 says, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same.” Jesus partook of flesh and blood, so that you could partake of spirit and life. For you to partake of that spirit and life, you must take the responsibility of standing in the place of authority as the new creation in Christ Jesus that you are. You are born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God (I Peter 1:23). It was the Word of Almighty God that was injected into your spirit man to bring about the new birth in your life. When the Church was first beginning, Acts 12:24 described it as the Word growing and multiplying. The Word is in you, but you are the one who must be willing to allow it to work in you.

Ephesians 4:21-24 says, “If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

You are the one in authority. It is your responsibility to put off the old man—the unregenerate man that you were before you accepted Jesus. The Holy Spirit does the actual work in you, but you must make the decision to allow Him to do it. God has never forced His will on any person. You put off the old man. You use the Word of God to renew your mind. You put on the new man, which is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We Can Minister and Walk From a Point of Authority

God’s power is in His Word. He is “upholding all things by the word of his power” (Hebrews 1:3). You need to learn to minister and walk from a point of authority. In His earthly ministry, Jesus said such things as “Be thou made whole.” “Take up your bed and walk.” Then Peter said to a lame man, “In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk” (Acts 3:6). He too ministered and spoke from a point of authority.

It’s time for you as a believer to begin to act that way. You have obtained an inheritance, and in that inheritance you have been given all authority. The God of the universe lives inside you! He lives and walks in you. Become God-inside-minded and you will begin to walk in this point of authority.

Keep right on building yourself up in your inheritance. You live in a world that is full of evil influences. Satan would like you to forget the reality of being born again and never realize your place of authority in Christ Jesus, because if you do, that power you walk in makes you absolutely dangerous to him. He has no defense against you when you walk in the power of God’s Word.
When you see in the Word that you are in Christ Jesus, that you are in Him, then confess it with all your heart. Then you will be strong, standing in a point of authority and operating in your inheritance in Him. As you do this, the power of God will always be available to work in your behalf. Praise God!

jiggyfly · Oct 25, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
We

It’s time for you as a believer to begin to act that way. You have obtained an inheritance, and in that inheritance you have been given all authority. The God of the universe lives inside you! He lives and walks in you. Become God-inside-minded and you will begin to walk in this point of authority.

Got any scriptures Homer that state you have "all authority"?

Do you have authority over Obama? How about Bin Laden? If you have authority over satan why don't you tell him to leave everyone alone?

RJ · Oct 25, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
DJ What you call the Word of Faith movement simply teaches Christians to live by faith. If its in the Bible it belongs to us. So a Christian is taught to walk by faith. and claim what belongs to them.

The majority of churches in general do not teach faith at all, they teach works. Now thats un-biblical.

I am sure they exist, like maybe a Jehova Witness Church but, I have been to many Churches in the past 20 years and I have found none that preach works.

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

jiggyfly said:
Got any scriptures Homer that state you have "all authority"?

Do you have authority over Obama? How about Bin Laden? If you have authority over satan why don't you tell him to leave everyone alone?

We act with full authority.
Titus 2:12-19 (Amplified Bible)

Obviously Jigger We have no authority over other people. That would negate their freedom of choice. Silly question grin

I have authority over Satan and I have told him to leave my family alone. Still it is an ongoing battle. He keeps coming back.
Every time we give him an excuse...

Here's another..
Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

We too are His disciples...

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

RJ said:
I am sure they exist, like maybe a Jehova Witness Church but, I have been to many Churches in the past 20 years and I have found none that preach works.

Actually I'm taking about born again churches.... You must attend! You must teach Sunday school! You must lead youth group! You must attend the bible studiess!! You must take part in church projects! If a person simply attends services and takes care of his family he/ they are substandard, not acceptable.
I too have attended many churches in my thirty six years as a Christian. I've seen it. I've seen it in six American states and two provinces of Canada

The Robster · Oct 25, 2010

I did want to add that I think many American churches are falling behind other churches on other parts of the world. One of the biggest problems that I see in American churches is a preaching of grace and law. Many churches are not preaching unadulterated grace. I thank God that I am rooted in church that preaches just grace. Many churches are putting people back under Law and I'm not sure many church going folks recognize that. And that is incredibly dangerous because when you put people back into Law, you make Christ of no effect. You fall off of grace. I'll stick to pure grace and claim everything that is mine under my grace covenant. Thank you Jesus.

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

And Another

Another verse that says we have all authority.

Matthew 28:18-20 (King James Version)

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Robster · Oct 25, 2010

Luke 10:19-20 (Amplified Bible)

19Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you. 20Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.

Mark 16:17-18 (Amplified Bible)

17And these attesting signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages; 18They will pick up serpents; and [even] if they drink anything deadly, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will get well.

Guess the Lord was just joking with us about these things. Jesus you so funny.

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

The Robster said:
Luke 10:19-20 (Amplified Bible)

19Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you. 20Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.

Mark 16:17-18 (Amplified Bible)

17And these attesting signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages; 18They will pick up serpents; and [even] if they drink anything deadly, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will get well.

Guess the Lord was just joking with us about these things. Jesus you so funny.

So here's the question I've been asking myself of late. Help me out And these signs will follow those who believe...... So if I don't speak in tongues...If I don't prosper in any way....If I don't see healing in my life... whatever. Does that mean I don't believe in the thing? Or does it mean I don't believe it for me?

I'm not referring to anybody or any posts. Purely hypothetical. Well not purely LOL because we all have those areas.

jiggyfly · Oct 25, 2010

I understand that we have authority but we do not have all of Christ's authority and power. Do you have authority over the body of Christ? Do you have the power to give salvation?

Here is the biggest problem I have against "word of faith" teachings, it's all about self, who I am, the power I have, the authority I have. It's some very evident "I" trouble. Which is why we try to discourage it here @ TalkJesus.

The Robster · Oct 25, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
So here's the question I've been asking myself of late. Help me out And these signs will follow those who believe...... So if I don't speak in tongues...If I don't prosper in any way....If I don't see healing in my life... whatever. Does that mean I don't believe in the thing? Or does it mean I don't believe it for me?

I'm not referring to anybody or any posts. Purely hypothetical. Well not purely LOL because we all have those areas.

I'm still trying to get the "speaking in tongues" matter resolved. I've asked for the gift of the Holy Spirit and believe that I have received it but it stiull hasn't been happening no matter how hard I try. I don't worry about this so much though since I belong to a "tongue talking" church and every now and then my pastor gets moved to have an alter call to help people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and everyone always receives and speaks before the church when it happens. But I keep trying on my own. I think to answer your question it might just be a little more faith needed. I think as far as prospering, you need to be a doer of the Word with tithing and offerings. I know a lot of people get all bent out of shape about the tithing and offerings but I don't know what else to tell you about that. LOL Hey I repented awhile back and found it very easy to tithe once I got all the revelation behind the Word and now I get excited to tithe! I know it sounds rediculous but I do. I'll tell you what thought brother it took me about maybe 3 months of just being buried in healing studies and scripture studies just to believe for ehaling. And I mean day after day. At one point I was like, I'm never going to have faith for this. But it came. I'm going to keep feeding my faith to "speak in tongues." Its frustrating for me because my buddy who I go to church with, prays in tongues all the time and its like a major tease for me. So you better believe that every service I go to I'm ready to fly down that aisle and crawl over the backs of Christians the moment I hear the pastor ask those who want to receive to come right up. It hasn't happened for 3 months now. It was awesome watching it last time and watching some people fall under the power of the Spirit. I chickened out though. lol I mean it really creeped me out because it was the first time I saw something live like that. So as you can see I'm not much help. But I know Brother Mike can help you with "speaking in tongues." he's one cat with some big time faith in that area.

Faith4Bride · Oct 25, 2010

jiggyfly said:
I understand that we have authority but we do not have all of Christ's authority and power. Do you have authority over the body of Christ? Do you have the power to give salvation?

Here is the biggest problem I have against "word of faith" teachings, it's all about self, who I am, the power I have, the authority I have. It's some very evident "I" trouble. Which is why we try to discourage it here @ TalkJesus.

Here is a large problem. many false teachings come very close to truth and then go overboard because of flesh. For example if word of faith teaches that healing is provided for at the cross and is a finished promised for for those who believe- they are correct scripturally.

If word of faith claims they can speak a yaught into heaven waiting for them there then they have used it for a means of fleshliness.

healing and a desire for healing, a faith in healing is not fleshly. It is not selfish ever to believe God for healing- ever. Now if someone says " i wont serve God unless he heals me' their selfishness isnot for their healing, it is with their obedience that they are selfish.

Word of faith teaches many truths that alot of other christians do not. But those truths get ignored because of when they go into fleshliness.

Now you asked do we have authority over the body of Christ? Yes if we are walking by faith and righteousness we do have authority over the body of Christ. We are capable and told to warn, exhort, rebuke, correct the body we are also told that if people in the body refuse to repent after the proper steps are taken we are to cut them off- not fellowship or eat with them- and we can even turn people over to satan is the need is there.

The power to "give salvation" is not something that works that way. Salvation is given to those who meet the requirements of salvation. If a person meets those requirements, truly has faith, repents, forgives- They are not denied salvation even by God because His word is the authority and it is settled in heaven. God does not tell anyone no who meets the conditions.

El Hombre viejo · Oct 25, 2010

jiggyfly said:
I understand that we have authority but we do not have all of Christ's authority and power. Do you have authority over the body of Christ? Do you have the power to give salvation?

Here is the biggest problem I have against "word of faith" teachings, it's all about self, who I am, the power I have, the authority I have. It's some very evident "I" trouble. Which is why we try to discourage it here @ TalkJesus.

Jigger I know you are not arguing just to argue, but I feel you are picking at nits.
No we don't have authority over the body of Christ. We have no authority over people at all. Neither does Jesus. But yes we have all the same authority that Jesus has. Did you see the verse I shared about "All power is given me.... Now go and do"?

Um...that was paraphrased LOL

We cannot give salvation but we can partner with Jesus by leading people to Him

Word of Faith..... We take the Word and live it by Faith. And its not all about 'me/I at all. Its about Jesus. Always.

jiggyfly · Oct 26, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
Jigger I know you are not arguing just to argue, but I feel you are picking at nits.
No we don't have authority over the body of Christ. We have no authority over people at all. Neither does Jesus. But yes we have all the same authority that Jesus has. Did you see the verse I shared about "All power is given me.... Now go and do"?

Um...that was paraphrased LOL

We cannot give salvation but we can partner with Jesus by leading people to Him

Word of Faith..... We take the Word and live it by Faith. And its not all about 'me/I at all. Its about Jesus. Always.

So, let me get this right, you believe that Jesus does not have authority over people? Then what exactly is He Lord of? Is He a king without a kingdom? Seems to me that your teaching that believers are equal to Christ in power and authority.

If the word of faith teachings are not all about self but rather about Jesus then I hope I can see the evidence of this in your future posts.

Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. For you died when Christ died, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your [fn] real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. Colossians 3:1-4

Kit Carson · Oct 26, 2010

Here is something to think about, and as this is a what for and what if thread.

I think God is pretty disgusted with most Churches and with people in general. They tend to believe what they want to believe, and if a preacher preaches to them what they want to hear, they flock to him in droves. They listen to him and not God. It is much easier that way, and it pacifies the sinful mind, makes the excuses you want to hear, and with time it destroys society.

So if you go to a church like that, and go along with things, God is not going to listen to you.

So what am I talking about?? Permissiveness mainly, acceptance, and liberal attitudes. So liberal anything goes. Do not discipline anyone, or step on any toes, just tolerate all and anything as God is totally love, and we should leave it all up to God.

Did you ever stop to think that when God says he gave us the power to step on snakes he meant it?? Or did he mean to just make pet out of that snake and let it bite you??

In the real world an example would be a man who walks into a store and kills the clerk , robs the store and so on. So the world debates about what to do, should they have a trial, if so should the punish the man, and no just wait a moment, we shall send him to counseling and be nice to him. Then let him out again so he can do this crime again. Then when after some 30 years he is judged to die some church makes up signs and goes and marches up and down in front of the prison demanding he have another chance.

I use that as an example, it is the best one I can think of, toleration destroys society, and burdens it with expense and taxes and leaves little in the way of appreciation for God. They have allowed themselves to be fooled and become corrupt in the name of love. God is given credit for the reverse of his will.

I do not agree with very much in modern society, from the above to the toleration of homosexuals in the church and in the military, to many other things, and I really do believe those that to tolerate these things, and go along and become convinced in their hearts it is ok, have left God and followed man.

My grand kids think I am terrible, why, because around me they are respectful, they do not fuss, they do not mis-behave and I am strict but kind. It is not ok to sass me, or to tell me I am not going to do that and there is nothing you can do about it because if you do I will run to school and tell teacher and they will throw you in jail. I do not want to obey you so there. That make me so sad, I see it in my family, and in the world, total acceptance, all is well, it is total love and leave it to God. Do not act yourself you are supposed to love.

Ya know love is doing what is right, to make all in order and harmony.

That is why God does not listen anymore, he is totally disgusted.
So if you are so, then God has his ears shut.

That is why God does not answer, why he does not listen. God is not harsh but just and fair and the world has left his way for mans way. The church is so far from common sense and Gods way........well it just makes me sad. But that is why God does not listen.

Kit

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