What is sin to a believer?

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
Where do I find the scriptures about the debt being paid without sin being taken away? Help me with that one.

I truly do not understand how we are "saved from sin," we still sin, but the cause of the penalty (sin) has not been taken away. And I'm told Jesus took away the penalty without taking away the sin? Makes no sense because I cannot find any scripture on it.

Not sure I've thought too much about this before....but I'll try to figure out what your wrestling with here....

Let's see...

1. We are saved from sin (Mt. 1:21) because Jesus took away our sins (1 Jn. 3:5; Rom. 11:27) in the sense that He took away the PENALTY of our sin (Is. 53:11-12).
2. However, Jesus did not take away all of our sins (yet!) because we sometimes still sin (Lk. 11:4; Mt. 6:14-15).

It's not a contradiction...

It's just that our complete and permanent victory (1 Cor. 15:57) over sin (1 Cor. 15:56) occurs in the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:52-55), which has not happened yet.

Thus, there are FUTURE New Covenant realities which we have not yet experienced.

The New Covenant is NOT yet fully fulfilled. It has been inaugurated (Lk. 22:20), but not fully fulfilled....YET!

Maybe that helps?

Hope so.....

best....

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy
Below are definitions of many term about being delivered from sin. There are serveral more that i didn't add.
This is what makes it confusing. You said: “Jesus did not take away all of our sins,” but that’s not what scripture says.

If we break down the terms as we did with “ordinances” and “handwriting,” I think we can come to a truth. But if we do not say what scripture says, we will continue to be lost in our understanding.

Here are some term and their Greek Definitions:

Mat 1:21 “save from sin” (Save)
G4982
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Joh 1:29 “take away sin” (take away)
G142
ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Act 3:19 “blot out sin” (blot out)
G1813
exaleiphō
From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

Heb 9:26 “put away sin” (put away)
G115
athetēsis
From G114; cancellation (literally or figuratively): - disannulling, put away.

Rom 6:2 “dead to sin” (dead)
G599
apothnēskō
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).

Rom 6:18 “free from sin” (free)
G1659
eleutheroō
From G1658; to liberate, that is, (figuratively) to exempt (from moral, ceremonial or mortal liability): - deliver, make free.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
Scripture teaches us, this happened one time, for "ALL TIME"

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy @Ivar,
I think these verses are an interesting study.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serve the law? It was added because of transgressions (sin), till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:23 But before faith (Jesus) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith (Jesus) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

What is your thoughts?

 

[Ivar]

@bibleguy @Ivar,
I think these verses are an interesting study.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serve the law? It was added because of transgressions (sin), till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:23 But before faith (Jesus) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith (Jesus) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

What is your thoughts?

@regibassman57

I've identified Paul to be speaking to Jews so this scripture comes to mind off the bat

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

So Paul spoke from a legal standpoint and technicalities being a Lawyer / Pharisee himself or ex-Pharisee " and Sheriff"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Jews took great pride in being the chosen people and the law of Moses. It was this pride that caused them to believe having begun in the spirit that they are made perfect by the flesh.
Also Christ was one despised and rejected by Men so the Jews may have even saw Moses as a greater prophet

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
seems to be in regard to some of the stricter penalties and curses of breaking the law

Gal 3:23 But before faith (Jesus) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though I have graduated from elementary school does not mean I do not use arithmetic and reading. I apply those skills in my next level of education. If Moses was one School Master then Christ is another.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wages of sin to bring us unto a Passover lamb without blemish? Therefore we no longer need the wages of sin?
Since 1 Corinthians 11 talks about the head of Man being Christ but it says here we are no longer under the school master;
Christ give the final or certifying diploma when it comes to truth concerning the law and oracles of God? Education ends with Christ concerning the Jews who already have/had the law?

Gal 3:25 But after that faith (Jesus) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

those would be my unedited thoughts. However as one not raised as a jew my observations are more theoretical based on what i read about a little of their history and based off various scriptures. You didn't add the following scriptures but i am continuing a bit because they seem relevant towards the context.

---------------------------------

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The foundation must be faith and not works
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This leads to believe from a Pharisee point of view Paul was getting them to switch from a foundation of works into a foundation of faith because a foundation of works is cursed

 

[Ivar]

@regibassman57

I meant to add also that Paul was speaking in Jargon.

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
When I read these scriptures, they seem to say:

Gal 3:19 The law entered because of sin, but only until Jesus (who is the seed) should come.

Gal 3:23 Before Jesus came, we were under/justified by the law until Jesus is revealed.

Gal 3:24 The law was our schoolmaster/tutor preparing for those who will be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 After Jesus has come, we are no longer under a tutor or the law.

Would you agree?

 

[Ivar]

Ivar,
When I read these scriptures, they seem to say:

Gal 3:19 The law entered because of sin, but only until Jesus (who is the seed) should come.

Gal 3:23 Before Jesus came, we were under/justified by the law until Jesus is revealed.

Gal 3:24 The law was our schoolmaster/tutor preparing for those who will be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 After Jesus has come, we are no longer under a tutor or the law.

Would you agree?

@regibassman57
Are you a Jew or do you have the understanding of the Jews? Have you even attended the school of the Jews?
How can one no longer be under a school master who was never under that school master to begin with?
How do you get a college diploma if you have never attended college or have the knowledge of the college student?

Would you agree with a Janitor concerning advice on Brain Surgery?
Is the Janitor qualified to tell you that you are no longer under the care of the Brain Surgeon?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
-------------------------------

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 9: 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Peter 3:16 "Paul" As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

--------------------------------------------------

You are using the sincere intentions of Paul to castrate the law of Moses when both the law of Moses and Christ came from the Father who does not change.
The Law of Moses is not just about curses but also morals and principle and also oracles of God such as Holy Days.
The wages of sin are done away with under Christ not the totality of the Law. You cannot throw away the baby with the bath water nor is one supposed to imply such things

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
I'm just speaking to what the verse says,
Have I misinterpreted anything incorrectly of what I said about the scripture?

 

[Ivar]

Ivar,
I'm just speaking to what the verse says,
Have I misinterpreted anything incorrectly of what I said about the scripture?

@regibassman57

According to Hosea 1:2 The Lord said that he approves of Man taking ****** for wives because he told Hosea to.
I'm Just speaking to what the verse says,
Have I misinterpreted anything incorrectly of what I said about the scripture?

Hosea 1:2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord.
--------------------------------------------

Do you see?

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
What does this have to do with Galtians 3:19-24?

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy
I do not see the connection with "debt." These are the Greek definitions from the "Strongs" and it says nothing about debt. The Greek for "ordinances" G1378 is accurate according to Colossian 2:14:

This is the Greek for “G5498” (handwriting)

G5498
χειρόγραφον
cheirographon
khi-rog'-raf-on
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.

This is the Greek for “G1378” (ordinance)
G1378
Dogma
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

It seem to say the ordinances (the law) was nailed to the cross. Says nothing about debt?

Hi! You need more than "strongs".

See this lexicon: Cheirographon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

It's not merely "something hand written". It's a certificate of debt because God divorced us.

Torah requires that faithless sinful people pay a debt. What debt? Their DEATH! (Rom. 6:23; Dt. 30:15-19).

And why the handwritten certificate? Because God divorced us (Jer. 3:8; as in the handwritten divorce certificate in Dt. 24:1), because we "played the harlot" (Eze. 6:9) as an adulteress (Rom. 7:3).

But God DESIRES that we be married to Him! (Rev. 19:9)

But He divorced us! And we deserve death (Dt. 22:21) because we played the harlot.

And we were lost in sin, as an adulteress. And God would not re-marry an adulteress.

Solution? The death of Christ cancels the prohibition against His ability to remarry us (Rom. 7:3-4).

And, death of Christ enables our sins (Torah-violations) to be forgiven.

So what LAW was canceled? The law which prohibits His ability to remarry us! (Rom. 7:3-4).

Was the Torah canceled? Of course not! The whole point, here, is that God is treating Israel in ACCORDANCE with Torah regulations pertaining to marriage, adultery, divorce, death, and remarriage.

God is not CANCELLING those Torah regulations! He is OBEYING His own Torah as it pertains to His relationship with His bride (Israel).

WE are His bride! His ISRAELITE bride. WE ARE ISRAEL. The New Covenant is only with ISRAEL (Jer. 31:33).

Thus, we can (again) be joined unto Him (Rom. 7:4).

Do we DARE play the harlot, again, by disobeying Torah?

GOD FORBID! The TORAH passes directly into this New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16).

The Torah is our very ketubah (marriage covenant). We DARE not sin against it again, or else face the consequences (Heb. 10:26-27) of violating the Torah (Heb. 10:28-31).

That's why you need to understand Torah (Rom. 7:1) to understand Paul's writings.

Ignore the Torah, and you have no idea what Paul is presuming you should understand.

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy
Below are definitions of many term about being delivered from sin. There are serveral more that i didn't add.
This is what makes it confusing. You said: “Jesus did not take away all of our sins,” but that’s not what scripture says.

If we break down the terms as we did with “ordinances” and “handwriting,” I think we can come to a truth. But if we do not say what scripture says, we will continue to be lost in our understanding.

Here are some term and their Greek Definitions:

Mat 1:21 “save from sin” (Save)
G4982
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Joh 1:29 “take away sin” (take away)
G142
ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Act 3:19 “blot out sin” (blot out)
G1813
exaleiphō
From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

Heb 9:26 “put away sin” (put away)
G115
athetēsis
From G114; cancellation (literally or figuratively): - disannulling, put away.

Rom 6:2 “dead to sin” (dead)
G599
apothnēskō
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).

Rom 6:18 “free from sin” (free)
G1659
eleutheroō
From G1658; to liberate, that is, (figuratively) to exempt (from moral, ceremonial or mortal liability): - deliver, make free.

I think your confusion may simply come from applying to much detailed meaning into particular English translations of Greek/Hebrew words. Thus, you force yourself into seemingly contradictory positions, when in fact, there is more flexibility permitted in the language translation/interpretation process.

For example:

1. Jesus takes away our sins.
2. Jesus does NOT take away our sins.

You see, BOTH of these statements are true, when properly qualified.

#1 is true because of, say, Mt. 1:21 or Rom. 11:27.

#2 is true because we sometimes still sin (thus requiring forgiveness, Lk. 11:4 and ongoing purification, 1 Jn. 1:7).

Contradiction? Surely not. These two statements (#1 and [HASH=610]#2)[/HASH] simply highlight different consistent facts.

Ever notice I like to structure arguments in the form of numbered premises, sequentially ordered in accordance with logical inference rules?

There's a reason! This helps you expose unjustified assumptions lurking behind your thoughts.

Go ahead and try to flesh out a premise-structured argument with numbered statements and associated justifications.

Then we can dig deeper to see more precisely where your concerns may lie.

regards...

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,

I can definitely appreciate you pointing me to the Lexicon reference pertaining to Colossians 2:14. It explained the scripture perfectly and I stand corrected. I understand the marriage scenario, but I’ve notice some other things I must meditate on and I’ll get back to you.

However, the debt that was paid was the wages for sin (Rom.6:23). I’ve always understood the penalty has been paid. My question is; how do we reconcile the debt being paid for sin, without sin itself being taken away; as scripture has taught us in various places?

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,

I can definitely appreciate you pointing me to the Lexicon reference pertaining to Colossians 2:14. It explained the scripture perfectly and I stand corrected. I understand the marriage scenario, but I’ve notice some other things I must meditate on and I’ll get back to you.

However, the debt that was paid was the wages for sin (Rom.6:23). I’ve always understood the penalty has been paid. My question is; how do we reconcile the debt being paid for sin, without sin itself being taken away; as scripture has taught us in various places?

Hey! I just posted to you a four-proposition proposal for dealing with this question....take a look! Let me know what you think....
best....

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
Thank you for that tip on the Lexicon. I see some great things

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
I just learned there is conflicting information between the Lexicon and Strongs. Do me a favor; can you look up John 8:34 in the Strongs and Lexicon, and text me the definiton as you see it. This will enlighten me on some issuses.

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
Take a look at this and give me your thoughts:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

G4160 (commits)
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238 (commits)
prassō
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly “refers to a single act”); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

 

[Ivar]

Ivar,
What does this have to do with Galtians 3:19-24?

@regibassman57

Motives & Intentions. A way for you to see how important they are when it comes to a message or words.

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,
I just learned there is conflicting information between the Lexicon and Strongs. Do me a favor; can you look up John 8:34 in the Strongs and Lexicon, and text me the definiton as you see it. This will enlighten me on some issuses.

Howdy! Definition of which term?

@bibleguy,
I just learned there is conflicting information between the Lexicon and Strongs. Do me a favor; can you look up John 8:34 in the Strongs and Lexicon, and text me the definiton as you see it. This will enlighten me on some issuses.

Ok...which lexicon? (there are many!)
And which term are you seeking to define in Jn. 8:34?