What is sin to a believer?

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
The term I need clarification on is "commits?"

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
The term I need clarification on is "commits?"

Hi. Gr. "poieo" (G4160) is simply the Greek verb meaning "to do" or "to make". Corresponds to the Hebrew (H6213) verb "asah" (Gr. "poieo" in Ge. 1:26 LXX, for example).

Which lexicon was bothering you?

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
I sent you these terms of "commits" earlier; "G4160 refers to " a single act?" There is a difference. I sent the Strong Greek defintion for the term "commit." The Lexison do not give this information.

The Greek G4160 refers to G4238 which is to "practice."
The Greek G4238 refers back to G4160 as a "single act."

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

G4160 (commits)
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238 (commits)
prassō
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly “refers to a single act”); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

I have other information to send but i'll wait until you get back to me on the other questions and thoughts i had.

 

[Ivar]

Bibleguy,
I sent you these terms of "commits" earlier; "G4160 refers to " a single act?" There is a difference. I sent the Strong Greek defintion for the term "commit." The Lexison do not give this information.

The Greek G4160 refers to G4238 which is to "practice."
The Greek G4238 refers back to G4160 as a "single act."

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

G4160 (commits)
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238 (commits)
prassō
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly “refers to a single act”); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

I have other information to send but i'll wait until you get back to me on the other questions and thoughts i had.

@regibassman57

mainly just sitting back and observing now but also don't gloss over the word whosoever which should imply that a person may or may not sin

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

also

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
In context Jesus was telling those that believe in Him they would be made free from sin:
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Free from what?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

A person that sins is not a servant of Christ and they are not free from sin.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
I sent you these terms of "commits" earlier; "G4160 refers to " a single act?" There is a difference. I sent the Strong Greek defintion for the term "commit." The Lexison do not give this information.

The Greek G4160 refers to G4238 which is to "practice."
The Greek G4238 refers back to G4160 as a "single act."

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

G4160 (commits)
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238 (commits)
prassō
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly “refers to a single act”); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

I have other information to send but i'll wait until you get back to me on the other questions and thoughts i had.

I disagree that G4160 always refers to "a single act."

Look at Mt. 6:3. Jesus is using G4160 in reference to a commanded behavior which is expected to be occurring not merely as "a single act". Rather, the commanded action is expected to be ongoing and repeated.

Don't let general definitional possibilities (stated in STRONGS or in a LEXICON) override the specific meaning of a particular term in a particular context.

Remember: CONTEXT also informs definitional meaning. Context is, after all, a primary means by which definitions are determined to begin with!

So, don't use definitions to contradict context. Rather, use context to inform definitions.

Don't use definitional meaning possibilities to wrongly override contextually inferred truth.

Thus, we don't say "G4160 always refers to a single act because my lexicon says that's a possible meaning".

Rather, we say: "G4160 CAN refer to a single act, but not always. For example, Mt. 6:3 is a case where G4160 does NOT refer merely to a single act. Rather, it refers to an expected ongoing repetition of an action type, as inferred from the context of Mt. 6:3."

That might be what's getting you a bit "off" in your theology of sin...you're allowing lexical data to contradict contextually-inferred meaning.

That's why hermeneutics is important....bogus hermeneutics leads to bogus theology.

Anyway, just wanted to sensitize you to this important consideration.

blessings....

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
I'm content with the definition i have, because it just adds to my scriptural references; but i appreciate you looking into it and giving me your thoughts.

According to scripture; I am "saved" from sin; my sin has been "blotted out;" I have been made "free from sin;" I've been "cleansed from sin;" I've been "sanctified from sin;" I've been "washed from sin;" I've been made "blind to sin;" "sin has been cancelled in me;" I've been "purged from sin;" and many more scriptures confirm my deliverance from sin. I speak in peace and understanding of what it mean to be free from sin.

This is a walk of faith, if a person does not believe that Jesus came and did what He said He would do; every man will give account of his own faith. As long as I'm loving God with all my heart and understanding, and love you and all my brothers and sisters in Christ; regardless if we agree or not; I'm good.

 

[Ivar]

Ivar,
In context Jesus was telling those that believe in Him they would be made free from sin:
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Free from what?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin.

A person that sins is not a servant of Christ and they are not free from sin.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

@regibassman57
:grin: whenever you skip a verse is like that's were the nail in the coffin is. Notice Bondage is Highlighted. Consider that Christ is talking to the Jews who have the law and how they interpreted his words and how he answered.
Free from the Bondage of the Law = the Wages of Sin aspect of the Law.
Once again you identify the audience, and discern their Motives and Intentions, in conjunction with the words spoken.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
Jesus was talking about them being in bondage to "sin"
They said they had not been in bondage to any man. They didn't know what Jesus was talking about when He said to them, He would make them free. They were in bondage to sin.

 

[Ivar]

Ivar,
Jesus was talking about them being in bondage to "sin"
They said they had not been in bondage to any man. They didn't know what Jesus was talking about when He said to them, He would make them free. They were in bondage to sin.

@regibassman57

Are you saying that Christ freed the Jews from the law? 100% in it's entirety? Every iota?

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
After Jesus died, rose and sent the Holy Ghost, He made all that believe in Him free from the justification of the law; or Torah that imputed sin unto them, and cleansed, sanctified and delivered all believers from the nature of sin..

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
My last post about “G4160” I wrote in a hurry; but I’ve never considered the Greek term “ poieo” (G4160) to be used for all occurrences. I do understand the term is used in various context and not just as "a single act." The primary use is "to do."

I believe Jesus wants the hearers, of John 8:34, to look back in retrospect to Adam when He made this statement. Jesus said, “whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.” Adam committed a “single act” and became the servant of sin. I believe this is what Jesus is pointing out; and why "4160" is also defined as a "single act."

For believers today, i think this verse should make them think. Jesus is not teaching a bliever in Him sins. We are no longer the servants of sin (Rom. 6:20, 22). If a believer in Christ say they sin, they are saying "I am the servant of sin."

Bibleguy, as we've read, the term "commits"can also mean to practice; not just a single act. This means if a believer sins (plural) daily or not, it becomes a practice. It doesn't matter if a person sins in various ways without committing the same act; they are practicing sin, which makes them a servant of sin in Jesus Christ's eyes.

 

[Dave M]

If a believer in Christ say they sin, they are saying "I am the servant of sin."

The way I see it is there is a difference in practicing sin and living a sin life style with no remorse, and stumbling in sin as you become a more mature Christian with great remorse and repenting.


1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Regi you have already stated you do wrong and the bible clearly tells us that all wrong is sin
1 John 5:17

so you are admitting you are a sinner we all are by nature, We now have the power to win the battle between our flesh which is sinful and our new born again spirit which is now of Christ. Our flesh will always be sinful.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dave
Jesus specifically says, you are not in the flesh, (you were in the flesh; Rom.7:5), but you are now in the Spirit, "if" the Spirit of God dwells in you (Rom. 8:9,10). You have the Spirit of Jesus living in your fleshly body (1Cor. 6:19); this is why Jesus died in the flesh; crucifying the flesh on the cross for us (1Pe. 3:18; 4:1). Jesus could not die in spirit; the Word is everlasting, and the Word was made flesh (John 1:14). Jesus came and died circumcising man's sins out of the flesh (Col. 2:11).

Under the old sinful covenant, sin was sin whether you practiced it or not (sin does not change if you're justified by the law). Whether sin is intentional (without remorse) or unintentional (with remorse); whether you did it one time or many; whether you enjoy it or not. Sin is the missing of the mark; intentional or unintentional. Uzzah missed the mark one time, unintentionally, and died (2Sam. 1-7). Was uzzah practicing that sin? NO!

Jesus said, whoever commits sin, is the servant of sin (Joh 8:34). You should disprove what He said. Jesus is the one who said, He was sent to save man and make man free from sin (Mat. 1:21). And all wrong doing is sin; if you have a mind believing you are justified by the law. When John spoke this, he was speaking to Jews that were still struggling to believe Jesus. John spoke to them according to their cultured understanding. They were babes. Just like Paul said, he became as a Jew to gain the Jews (1Cor. 9:20).

G264 (sin)
hamartanō
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly “to miss the mark” (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) “to err”, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

What did Jesus say He save you from? (Mat. 1:21; Eph. 2:5; 1Ti 1:15)
What did Jesus say He healed you from? (1Pe. 2:24; Mar. 2:17; Isa.33:24)
What did Jesus say He sanctified you from? (Acts 26:18)
What did Jesus say He made you free from? (Rom. 6:7, 18, 22; 8:2)
What did Jesus say He “put away” from you and cancelled? (Heb. 9:26) (Put away Greek definition: G115; cancel, disannul)
What did Jesus say He cleansed you from? (1Jo. 1:7, 9)
What did Jesus say He washed you from? (Acts 22:16; Rev. 1:5)
What did Jesus say He redeemed you from? (Heb. 9:12; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14
Was it said when Jesus came he would make an end of sins? (Dan. 9:24)

Did Jesus say there is Joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than 99 just persons who “NEED NO REPENTANCE?” (Luke 15:7)(repentance from what?).
Dave, are you a part of the “JUST” persons?

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Jesus.

 

[Dave M]

if you think your flesh has been made holly I could not dis agree with you more as Paul himself struggled with the desires of the flesh against the spirit. You are trying to complicate this. our flesh is and always will be sinful.

 

[Dave M]

does it every talk good about the flesh in scripture no the flesh does not change, you are not walking in the spirit 100%


Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”



Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Romans 8:6
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dave

“You are accusing me of trying to complicate this; that's what you said

You are presenting to me scripture, and I am presenting scripture to you. We are dealing with the mystery of Godliness (it’s not ours; we didn’t write it) and it’s not our intellectual words or wisdom. We let God’s word interpret itself; this is why we present scripture according to how we understand it. If we try to interpret God’s words without scripture, we are deceiving ourselves.

When the bible talks about the flesh, it’s talking about the spiritual influence in thought. If you live after the flesh, you “mind” the things of the flesh (Rom. 8:5). The term “flesh” is used as a way of thinking (2Cor. 10:5). The heart of man has Jesus Christ living in it; man thinks evil from his heart; man does evil from his heart; but that’s where Christ abides through Grace (Mat. 15:18, 19). Jesus said, He will never leave our hearts, nor forsake us (Heb 13; 5).

Everything you talked about concerning the flesh comes from the heart of man. The flesh itself has no intellect. The intellect that operates the flesh is the spirit of man. Man is tempted by Satan and is obedient to him or man is obedient to God. The flesh has nothing to do with carrying out disobedience. This is why we, the heart of man, is told to resist the devil (Jam. 4:7). Man is tempted in his flesh; that’s what Paul was struggling with. Paul was struggling with emotions. Emotions are what makes us feel tempted and desire to do particular lustful acts. Temptation is lust; lust is an emotion (Jam.1:14).

If a man lives according to the lust (emotions) of the flesh (according to what they feel) they will die. They will not die because they've sinned, but they will die because they did not develop in the character of Christ, or the Fruit of His Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23).

I see that you’ve used 1Corinthians 10:13. This scripture tells you that God will not allow you to tempted or go through anything you cannot handle. Anything you go through, you can learn to take the victory over; if you will to do so. If it’s not your will, you will act according to the fleshly mind; according to the devils temptation. It’s your choice; not the flesh.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dave,
What does this scripture mean to you?

Col 2:11 In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Does circumcision cut something out?
What did Jesus "cut out" here in the flesh; in the heart of man?

Dave, I forgot to had this thought:
You said: "we are all sinners by nature,"

What was the purpose and need to be "BORN AGAIN" if we are still sinner? (Mar. 2:17)(John 3:3, 7; 1Pe 1:23) (1Ti. 1:15)

When we are born again, we are born into a new nature.

Rom 11:24 For if you (Gentile believers) were cut out of the olive tree "which is wild by nature", and "were graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree": how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Rom 8:9 But "you are not in the flesh," but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
I'm content with the definition i have, because it just adds to my scriptural references; but i appreciate you looking into it and giving me your thoughts.

According to scripture; I am "saved" from sin; my sin has been "blotted out;" I have been made "free from sin;" I've been "cleansed from sin;" I've been "sanctified from sin;" I've been "washed from sin;" I've been made "blind to sin;" "sin has been cancelled in me;" I've been "purged from sin;" and many more scriptures confirm my deliverance from sin. I speak in peace and understanding of what it mean to be free from sin.

This is a walk of faith, if a person does not believe that Jesus came and did what He said He would do; every man will give account of his own faith. As long as I'm loving God with all my heart and understanding, and love you and all my brothers and sisters in Christ; regardless if we agree or not; I'm good.

Yes, you're good in many ways.

But not all.

You admit that you sometimes do wrong (not right), yet you claim this is not "sin".

James 4:17 plainly says that when you do wrong, you SIN.

Thus, James 4:17 says that you SIN sometimes (given that you sometimes do wrong).

So sure, you are "saved" from sin, but you sometimes still sin.
Sure, your sins are "blotted out", but you sometimes still sin.
You are "free from sin", but you sometimes still sin.
You are "cleansed from sin", but you sometimes still sin.
You are "sanctified from sin", but you sometimes still sin.

Get it?

You need to include ALL Biblical data into your theology....you can't just IGNORE James 4:17 and pretend it does not apply to you.

blessings...

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy

What is an unfruitful believer according to scripture?

You presented:
“James 4:17 plainly says that when you do wrong, you SIN.”

I would agree; we know James was speaking to Jews on their level in their terms (1Co. 9:20). They did not have the revelation knowledge we have today. This is why God’s Grace is sufficient.

What is the definition of sin according to the Torah? I’m sure it’s missing the mark.

I believe any wrong doing is of Satan, but it’s not sin in God’s eyes. As I’ve said, “sin is missing the mark.” Believers have no mark to miss, because we are not justified by the law. A person can only sin if they are justified by the law (Rom.3:19, 20); this is the principle understanding scripture gives. If the law tells you you sin, then you sin. The law cannot tell me I sin. Believers are justified by Jesus Christ who took all man’s sins upon Himself. The Judicial Law to told a person they've sinned; believer are not justified by the Judicial Law of Moses. It cannot tell a believer they've sinned.

I’ve presented factual, scriptural information that specifically says what Jesus did regarding sin. You cannot refute “ANY” of those scriptures I’ve presented to you.

I have asked you to present a scripture that teaches, "the penalty of sin has been removed, but sin is still applicable;" you haven't. The simplicity is Jesus came into the world to save sinners from sin (Eph.2:5); below you purposefully contradicted what scripture said. You didn't contradict what I said.

I’ve presented to you many scriptures that teach what Jesus did regarding man’s sins. You’ve made the choice to reject the scriptural references that I’ve place with factual scriptures. You’ve added conflicting carnal knowledge to express how you've interpreted scripture.

G264 (sin)
hamartanō
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly “to miss the mark” (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) “to err”, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

What did Jesus say He save you from? (Mat. 1:21; Eph. 2:5; 1Ti 1:15)
What did Jesus say He healed you from? (1Pe. 2:24; Mar. 2:17; Isa.33:24)
What did Jesus say He sanctified you from? (Acts 26:18)
What did Jesus say He made you free from? (Rom. 6:7, 18, 22; 8:2)
What did Jesus say He “put away” from you and cancelled? (Heb. 9:26) (Put away Greek definition: G115; cancel, disannul)
What did Jesus say He cleansed you from? (1Jo. 1:7, 9)
What did Jesus say He washed you from? (Acts 22:16; Rev. 1:5)
What did Jesus say He redeemed you from? (Heb. 9:12; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14
Was it said when Jesus came he would make an end of sins? (Dan. 9:24)

Above are my references that Jesus saved man from sin:

Below is your blasphemy and contradiction of scripture:
So sure, you are "saved" from sin, but you sometimes still sin.
Sure, your sins are "blotted out", but you sometimes still sin.
You are "free from sin", but you sometimes still sin.
You are "cleansed from sin", but you sometimes still sin.
You are "sanctified from sin", but you sometimes still sin.