Works based salvation ??

[Rhema]

I cant help wonder if Jesus would get accused of works based salvation in today's Christian communities that do not know scripture.

Without a doubt.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

(Luke 6:46 KJV)

I just wonder how, "Believe in Jesus" got disconnected from "Believe the teachings of Jesus" (and do them).

Keep the Faith Dave,
Rhema

(Just make sure you got the right faith.)

 

[Rhema]

Notice, I said, "Instead of being able to buy your way into the Kingdom he claimed that no works were necessary at all." My statement says that Luther said no work were necessary to enter the Kingdom, i.e. get saved. Luther absolutely preached that one was saved apart from works. He is the one who championed, faith alone. So, my comments were accurate and not ignorant.

Indeed.

What I find fascinating, though, is Luther's reasoning behind such views. It's not as if he just read scripture and pulled doctrine from there, it's that he reacted to the Catholic paradigm and found flaws there first.

And yes, indulgences were granted for monetary donations to the Church, and Luther's 95 theses were all about indulgences, put forth (as was the practice) to start a theological debate. They weren't proffered as a conclusion. The import of the theses was (in essence) do monetary donations have "Salvific Merit"? Can money substitute for one's good works? (Hey, time is money....) Should one just make money, and then sponsor others who would do good works on your behalf?

One of the largest super-churches in America is North Point Community Church out of Atalanta Georgia. And while my intent is not to bash Andy Stanley, the church itself does nothing to provide a structure for its members to participate in doing "good works." Instead, they select organizations that are already active, and have their members donate money to these. Homeless shelters, drug rehabs, after school programs, elder care, food kitchens, food pantries, you name it... even a tool library. I was physically present at one of the annual services a few years back where they did their media hoopla - video presentations about the NGOs that received contributions - and to celebrate the grand total of just how much MONEY the church collected to distribute. .. complete with a countdown clock (actually a count up money clock) and actual confetti canons !!!! Yes, they literally shot confetti into the congregation when the clock hit the Grand Total.



I would ask, does such behaviour have "Spiritual Merit"?

Mind you, the church is rich, so why not just subcontract out your good works? These are people who hire a nanny, have a private chef, pay for pool service, and even subcontract a company to put up their Christmas decorations, so ... to them it feels natural to pay others to slop the food out for the needy. Why dirty your hands? We're just too busy. Let the professionals do the works.

And yes, Luther did go a bit further, not to just conclude that monetary donations to the church have no Salvific Merit, but that your own personal good works have no Salvific Merit (they cannot contribute to your salvation at all).

Why? (And all of the above was preface to this...)

Luther concluded that If one does goods works for Salvific Merit (meaning for the purpose of you achieving your salvation) then those good works are selfish. And how could anything selfish have merit toward salvation?

Fascinating,
Rhema

 

[Butch5]

Indeed.

What I find fascinating, though, is Luther's reasoning behind such views. It's not as if he just read scripture and pulled doctrine from there, it's that he reacted to the Catholic paradigm and found flaws there first.

And yes, indulgences were granted for monetary donations to the Church, and Luther's 95 theses were all about indulgences, put forth (as was the practice) to start a theological debate. They weren't proffered as a conclusion. The import of the theses was (in essence) do monetary donations have "Salvific Merit"? Can money substitute for one's good works? (Hey, time is money....) Should one just make money, and then sponsor others who would do good works on your behalf?

One of the largest super-churches in America is North Point Community Church out of Atalanta Georgia. And while my intent is not to bash Andy Stanley, the church itself does nothing to provide a structure for its members to participate in doing "good works." Instead, they select organizations that are already active, and have their members donate money to these. Homeless shelters, drug rehabs, after school programs, elder care, food kitchens, food pantries, you name it... even a tool library. I was physically present at one of the annual services a few years back where they did their media hoopla - video presentations about the NGOs that received contributions - and to celebrate the grand total of just how much MONEY the church collected to distribute. .. complete with a countdown clock (actually a count up money clock) and actual confetti canons !!!! Yes, they literally shot confetti into the congregation when the clock hit the Grand Total.



I would ask, does such behaviour have "Spiritual Merit"?

Mind you, the church is rich, so why not just subcontract out your good works? These are people who hire a nanny, have a private chef, pay for pool service, and even subcontract a company to put up their Christmas decorations, so ... to them it feels natural to pay others to slop the food out for the needy. Why dirty your hands? We're just too busy. Let the professionals do the works.

And yes, Luther did go a bit further, not to just conclude that monetary donations to the church have no Salvific Merit, but that your own personal good works have no Salvific Merit (they cannot contribute to your salvation at all).

Why? (And all of the above was preface to this...)

Luther concluded that If one does goods works for Salvific Merit (meaning for the purpose of you achieving your salvation) then those good works are selfish. And how could anything selfish have merit toward salvation?

Fascinating,
Rhema

Yeah. One has to wonder how Luther came up with those ideas. I do believe it was an overreaction to What he saw as errors in the Catholic Church. I'm not surprised to hear that of North Point. They have a reputation around here. I've lived near the church for some time now.

 

[Butch5]

You apparently do not know the difference between 'justification' and 'sanctification'! The quotes I gave from Martin Luther were quite clear.

Well, the quotes may have been clear, but they didn't address what I said. I said Martin Luther argued that one enters the kingdom by Faith alone apart from works.

 

[th1bill]

Well, the quotes may have been clear, but they didn't address what I said. I said Martin Luther argued that one enters the kingdom by Faith alone apart from works.

I entered the Kingdom by my faith, which has inspired me unto works in the name and for the cause of Christ.

 

[Curtis]

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

You can only "do" (works) what God shows you.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Butch5]

I entered the Kingdom by my faith, which has inspired me unto works in the name and for the cause of Christ.

No offense Bill, but our beliefs don't change Scripture

 

[th1bill]

No offense Bill, but our beliefs don't change Scripture

Not belief, just truth and, I work because I am a member of the Church He's returning. I am already a Kingdom Member.

 

[Butch5]

Not belief, just truth and, I work because I am a member of the Church He's returning. I am already a Kingdom Member.

That may be, but you didn't that kingdom without works.

 

[KingJ]

Hi Sue!

I believe people are beginning to turn from Luther's teachings. However, it is a slow process. For instance, John Calvin taught double predestination. He was adamant about it. Today you would be hard pressed to find a Calvinist preaching or teaching double predestination. Many find the doctrine repugnant. So, it is a slow turning, but I believe it is turning.

The whole "works salvation" is a straw man that Calvinists created to use against those who disagree with them. They don't really have any good arguments for their doctrine so what they do is distract from the subject at hand. When they say someone has a "works salvation" it's a boogie man that they throw on the opponent to redirect the conversation. What they're doing is trying to get the other person on the defensive. The typical response from the other person is, "I'm not preaching works salvation." Then they say, "yes you are." At this point they have gone from defending their doctrine to making the other person defend theirs. It's a distraction tactic. There is nothing wrong with having a salvation of works. God requires works.

The "no works" theology comes from taking Paul out of context. When Paul speaks of not being saved by works, he is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law. He's telling his readers that keeping the Mosaic Law won't save them.

Correct. David was a man after God's heart, his works showed it.

Whilst I agree with all you have said, I do believe you are going a little over the edge of the side of works with the underlined passage.

Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17, martyrdom Rev 2:10 and selfless works James 1:27 will show God that we desire to be with Him, but salvation is an entirely separate topic.

The above three would get us into an Abraham's bosom type paradise in Hades Luke 16:19-31. Only the sacrifice of Jesus can take us from there to heaven. This is why the faith to believe Jesus is Lord is a faith given to us by the Holy Spirit. This given after He judges our heart and mind.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10. I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings

 

[Curtis]

It is because of “faith” that works is produced. No amount of “works” can produce “faith”

 

[Butch5]

Correct. David was a man after God's heart, his works showed it.

Whilst I agree with all you have said, I do believe you are going a little over the edge of the side of works with the underlined passage.

Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17, martyrdom Rev 2:10 and selfless works James 1:27 will show God that we desire to be with Him, but salvation is an entirely separate topic.

The above three would get us into an Abraham's bosom type paradise in Hades Luke 16:19-31. Only the sacrifice of Jesus can take us from there to heaven. This is why the faith to believe Jesus is Lord is a faith given to us by the Holy Spirit. This given after He judges our heart and mind.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10. I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings

This is where it all falls apart. The Baptist told the Jews to do works meet for repentance. James said that Abraham was justified by his works, literally, out of his works. If there is no justification, there is no salvation. Thus, works are necessary for salvation.

However, the three wouldn't get us into Abraham's bosom because Abraham died. Hades is the grave. The sacrifice of Jesus doesn't take us to Heaven. People don't go to Heaven. God's kingdom will be on earth. Christians will be on earth. If one is to enter that kingdom they have to have been justified by works.

 

[Christ4Ever]

If there is no justification, there is no salvation. Thus, works are necessary for salvation.

We are justified by the blood of the lamb Jesus Christ! \o/

 

[KingJ]

If there is no justification, there is no salvation. Thus, works are necessary for salvation.

I would disagree. You need to give your definition of 'works'. Works follow what is in the heart. This is why the criminal next to Jesus was justified with no actual works. Unless of course you define the act of repentance as a work. For this discussion, I think it is best to separate decisions from the heart from actual things we do. The argument with works is that it bypasses a decision from the heart. And that is a valid argument.

As such, of the three examples I gave, the first one, Psalm 51:17 is not a work. Now Jesus taught repentance of sin. Not works. He knew works follow a right heart.

However, the three wouldn't get us into Abraham's bosom because Abraham died. Hades is the grave.

I cannot help you with this one as you do not recognise Luke 16:19-31. These pages have been removed from your bible.

I will just say that it makes clear the fact if Jesus NEVER died, there would still be a separation between sinners who love their sin and do not repent verse those that hate their sin and do seek repentance.

The sacrifice of Jesus doesn't take us to Heaven. People don't go to Heaven.

Insane error. We have debunked this recently in a thread here.

God's kingdom will be on earth.

Where God is, is heaven.

Christians will be on earth. If one is to enter that kingdom they have to have been justified by works.

Incorrect. They have to be saved.

 

[Rxlx]

It started as an opposition to the Catholic church. Basically, in the 1500's in the Catholic church there were ways to buy loved ones out of purgatory. There were other things also. Martin Luther saw the errors in this and revolted against it. His 95 thesis was basically the start of the Reformation. The problem was, as often happens, Luther went to the opposite extreme. Instead of being able to buy your way into the Kingdom he claimed that no works were necessary at all. He then proceeded to use Paul's writings on works out of context to prove his point. His arguments are still around today, and those passages are still used out of context. Fortunately, people are beginning to see the errors in Luther's theology and are turning away from it. However, it is still there.

Practically all Christians claim that Jesus took the thief beside him to heaven the same day - but obviously that is nonsense no matter how angrily all 'Christians' try defend it.
But if the thief was guaranteed paradise then obviously he had done no works??????????

 

[Butch5]

Practically all Christians claim that Jesus took the thief beside him to heaven the same day - but obviously that is nonsense no matter how angrily all 'Christians' try defend it.
But if the thief was guaranteed paradise then obviously he had done no works??????????

We can use the exception to disprove the rule. Maybe the thief didn't do any works and Jesus saved Him. I don't think that mean the rest of Scripture gets negated. God can save anyone no matter what they do or don't do. However, that doesn't allow us to change what He's commanded.

 

[Butch5]

I would disagree. You need to give your definition of 'works'. Works follow what is in the heart. This is why the criminal next to Jesus was justified with no actual works. Unless of course you define the act of repentance as a work. For this discussion, I think it is best to separate decisions from the heart from actual things we do. The argument with works is that it bypasses a decision from the heart. And that is a valid argument.

As such, of the three examples I gave, the first one, Psalm 51:17 is not a work. Now Jesus taught repentance of sin. Not works. He knew works follow a right heart.

We don't my definition. We have the dictionary. James said Abraham was justified out of his works. Argument over!!!

I cannot help you with this one as you do not recognise Luke 16:19-31. These pages have been removed from your bible.

No, they haven't. It's clearly a parable.

I will just say that it makes clear the fact if Jesus NEVER died, there would still be a separation between sinners who love their sin and do not repent verse those that hate their sin and do seek repentance.

What repentance would there be?

Insane error. We have debunked this recently in a thread here.

No, no one has debunked it. You can't debunk the truth.

Where God is, is heaven.

That's irrelevant. The kingdom is on Earth.

Incorrect. They have to be saved.

And, before they can be saved, they have to be justified.

 

[Butch5]

We are justified by the blood of the lamb Jesus Christ! \o/

True. Is that the only justification?

 

[Christ4Ever]

True. Is that the only justification?

New Covenant wise, I'd say yes.
If you know of others since Jesus Christ died, that justifies one with God, I'd like to know what they are.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

New Covenant wise, I'd say yes.
If you know of others since Jesus Christ died, that justifies one with God, I'd like to know what they are.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

James says Abraham was justified out of his works. James basically answers this question.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:14.

It's kind of rhetorical, can faith alone save him. The answer is no. He goes on to argue.

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:14–17.

HIs argument is that if there are no works the claimed faith is dead. This defeats the argument made by many that works are a product of faith. Faith must have works to be alive. Therefore, if faith is to produce anything, it must first have works.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:17–18.

This is a poor translation. He literally said, 'I will show you my faith out of my works.' If he's showing his faith out of his works, then those works cannot be a product of a preexisting faith.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:19–20.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:20–23.

His faith was made complete by his works.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:23–24.

By works a man is justified. It's not just faith.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:24–26.

James literally shreds Martin Luther's "Faith Alone" doctrine.