Works based salvation ??

[Johanabrahams]

The Savior, Jehovah/Yahweh, always had a glorious saving in the OT. And in the NT it reached its climax. He was always the Savior and still is.

Isaiah 43: 8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth. 10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God. 13 Yea, since the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who can hinder it? [ASV]


In the NT He gives us His Living Word in Jesus. Where we look at the Word of Jesus in Revelation that it is our saving Grace from Him. Where the Almighty God became our "Abba Father/Daddy" in Love. Because we are born of Him and the same as He is. Just starting of as Babies in Drinking our Milk. Where we enter in Revelation our dead on the cross and our birth in the Life of Jesus Christ. To grow up to be Perfect in Jesus just as He was.

Eph. 4:
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

These Gifts have the Ability from God to let us look at Jesus as the Word of God. And in Revelation it becomes our Creation to be the actual Person. When we get Spiritual Eyes from our Dad, Jehovah, we can see His Word of Jesus clearly. And then we see ourselves who always existed in Jesus also clearly. Where our Dad shows us His thoughts on us in the Word of Jesus. And looking at His Love and His thoughts on us in Jesus we discover ourselves in His Living Word of Jesus. And we start Living by the Word of our Dad, Jehovah which He gave in Jesus.

2 Cor. 3:
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[KingJ]

We don't my definition. We have the dictionary. James said Abraham was justified out of his works. Argument over!!!

Ostrich syndrome. You ignoring the point made.

No, they haven't. It's clearly a parable.

Its clearly not a parable. Actual names, actual place. To ignore it would be to insinuate that Jesus was lying. Even if it were a... parable.

This is why I correctly conclude that annihilationist's like you, completely remove it from your bible and hope that calling it a parable means you don't need to acknowledge what Jesus said for half a chapter.

What repentance would there be?

Repentance of sin. The act carries weight with God per Psalm 51:17 and a lot of verses from Jesus.

No, no one has debunked it. You can't debunk the truth.

Dude. you take a single verse and assume that is the A-Z of a vastly unknown future. That is borderline madness.

That's irrelevant. The kingdom is on Earth.

Irrelevant if you take a single verse as the A-Z of what will happen.

God gave His life for us. Do you think He will stop us travelling to other planets? UFO's and Elon Musk already on that. Imagine us after the first 1000 years in heaven.

Do not limit God. When Christians type ridiculous lines like ''we will be stuck on earth'' they are looking for attention and stumbling the weak into thinking God will be a pain even in heaven. It is not wise.

There is truth to us being on earth and many things remaining the same. Humans are humans. But there is also a lot of truth to us being free and God having many unthinkable and exciting things planned for us.

And, before they can be saved, they have to be justified.

Firstly, understand the point I made. If Jesus never died, NOBODY would be saved.

Then, please try understanding Psalm 51:17. Repentance of sin is not a 'work', it is a decision from the heart and per Jer 17:9-10 God judges our hearts and minds for 'justification'.

It is true, as already said that works are mentioned in James 1:27 and Rev 2:10. But it would be very important to clarify that these works are very specific works and need to be compared to 'general' works. Works that show a changed heart. Unlike Matt 7:22 type works. Can you be a martyr for Jesus (Rev 2:10) if have not accepted Him as your Lord and Saviour and love Him immensely, I am not so sure.

 

[Rxlx]

How the unbelievers love to twist scripture!
the thief beside Jesus is still in his grave until getting a free pass on Judgment Day.

 

[KingJ]

How the unbelievers love to twist scripture!
the thief beside Jesus is still in his grave until getting a free pass on Judgment Day.

Luke 23:42-43

And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

 

[Rxlx]

I just posted this in the Bible Study pages:

No Human has Gone to Heaven but Jesus!

Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dead fly off to heaven?

Also when Jesus died the earthquake broke open the tombs and some saints walked about the village. Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?
And why had they not flown off to heaven but were obviously waiting in their graves for resurrection?
Did they die and were put back in their graves or did their souls fly off to heaven regardless of what Apostle Peter said just a few days after seeing Jesus rise off into the sky back to heaven?

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'

The constant refrain about the dead flying off to heaven is Satanic as all are still in their graves.

 

[Rxlx]

Luke 23:42-43

And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Of course Jesus said that _ BUT AS HE HIMSELF DID NOT GO TO PARADISE BUT SPENT A DAY OR TWO IN HIS TOMB BEFORE BEING RESURRECTED AND GOING TO SEE SATAN'S FIRST GANG OF FALLEN ANGELS IN THEIR PRISON INSIDE EARTH HE COULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE THIEF ANYWHERE.
NOR COULD HE AS HIS PARADISE IS TO BE THE RENEWED EARTH AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS MILLENNIUM.
The thief has been dust for 2000 years and has another 1000 before Jesus's promise comes true.
Then resurrectees will see the thief but Bill you will not be there as you are a false prophet uttering false teachings.

 

[KingJ]

Of course Jesus said that _

Yes, a simple verse and simple point. ''You will be in paradise, today''. Not grave. Not hell. Not Pluto. Not tomorrow. Paradise, today. The day he died.

BUT AS HE HIMSELF DID NOT GO TO PARADISE BUT SPENT A DAY OR TWO IN HIS TOMB BEFORE BEING RESURRECTED AND GOING TO SEE SATAN'S FIRST GANG OF FALLEN ANGELS IN THEIR PRISON INSIDE EARTH HE COULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE THIEF ANYWHERE. NOR COULD HE AS HIS PARADISE IS TO BE THE RENEWED EARTH AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS MILLENNIUM. The thief has been dust for 2000 years and has another 1000 before Jesus's promise comes true.
Then resurrectees will see the thief but Bill you will not be there as you are a false prophet uttering false teachings.

I don't agree. Please quote the scriptures you are referring to.

 

[Rxlx]

Please get a KJV Study Bible and learn to use the footnotes and follow the crossreferences and all will be revealed.
But be assured that the thief is till in his grave waiting for Judgment Day and his free pass.

 

[KingJ]

I just posted this in the Bible Study pages:

No Human has Gone to Heaven but Jesus!

Nonsense.

Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

You are quoting a 'Mace' interpretation of that verse. Every other version speaks to a past tense event. ''David did not, hath not, ascended not''.

Until the resurrection nobody qualified to be in heaven. Everyone who had repented of their sins per Psalm 51:17 was separated in a place called Abraham's bosom. Waiting for the resurrection. See Luke 16:19-31. Jesus goes into a lot of detail.

As for the word 'grave' specifically mentioned in scripture, you actually need to do a thorough bible study on it. Please read this link, it is quite good at explaining why the 'grave' is not a place where dead souls are waiting judgement day. Rather it is an actual grave of dead bodies who are no longer attached to a spirit - Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave.

It is a very common mistake to make.

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dead fly off to heaven?

David is in heaven per Paul in 2 Cor 5:8.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?

And why had they not flown off to heaven but were obviously waiting in their graves for resurrection? Did they die and were put back in their graves or did their souls fly off to heaven regardless of what Apostle Peter said just a few days after seeing Jesus rise off into the sky back to heaven?

Please provide the scripture.

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'

The constant refrain about the dead flying off to heaven is Satanic as all are still in their graves.

Please provide the scripture.

 

[KingJ]

No, no one has debunked it. You can't debunk the truth.

2 Cor 5:8 and Rev 6:10 speaks to saints being with God when they die. Where is God currently residing?

A. Shanghai, China
B. New York City, USA
C. Heaven

 

[Rxlx]

2 Cor 5:8 and Rev 6:10 speaks to saints being with God when they die. Where is God currently residing?

A. Shanghai, China
B. New York City, USA
C. Heaven

No one had gone to heaven but all the dead are in their graves.
If you were honest you would continue to post 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So you are saying that GOD says' Come up here with me - but on Judgment Day I may send you to the flames of hell!'
So you think GOD is as hypocritical as you?

Your quote Rev 6:10 but again in your Satanic dishonesy omit to quote 6:8 'And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.'

The Death angel sat on the pale horse has not yet been loosed so the entire passage is a vision - a fantasy - of what may be to come but is basically like something Disney conjures up in Hollywood.

Dishonesty is the mark of the beast?

 

[Rxlx]

2 Cor 5:8 and Rev 6:10 speaks to saints being with God when they die. Where is God currently residing?

A. Shanghai, China
B. New York City, USA
C. Heaven

Why don't you get yourself a KJV Study Bible with all its footnotes and crossreferences that will make everything clear?

 

[Rxlx]

Yes, a simple verse and simple point. ''You will be in paradise, today''. Not grave. Not hell. Not Pluto. Not tomorrow. Paradise, today. The day he died.



I don't agree. Please quote the scriptures you are referring to.

Get a KJV Study Bible and read for yourself as your demons prevents you believing what anyone else says.

 

[KingJ]

No one had gone to heaven but all the dead are in their graves.

Not what Paul says in the scripture I posted. What scripture are you thinking about?

If you were honest you would continue to post 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Irrelevant to the point being made. Not sure how you think it is relevant. Care to better explain?

So you are saying that GOD says' Come up here with me - but on Judgment Day I may send you to the flames of hell!'
So you think GOD is as hypocritical as you?

Paul was speaking to saints. So, no, nobody who goes to heaven will be sent to hell.

Your quote Rev 6:10 but again in your Satanic dishonesy omit to quote 6:8 'And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.'

The Death angel sat on the pale horse has not yet been loosed so the entire passage is a vision - a fantasy - of what may be to come but is basically like something Disney conjures up in Hollywood.

Irrelevant to the point being made. Not sure how you think it is relevant. Care to better explain?

Dishonesty is the mark of the beast?

Not sure there is a scripture that says that.

Where is the dishonesty exactly? I just see people making a reading blunder and pushing a nonsensical belief.

 

[Rxlx]

Not what Paul says in the scripture I posted. What scripture are you thinking about?



Irrelevant to the point being made. Not sure how you think it is relevant. Care to better explain?



Paul was speaking to saints. So, no, nobody who goes to heaven will be sent to hell.



Irrelevant to the point being made. Not sure how you think it is relevant. Care to better explain?



Not sure there is a scripture that says that.

Where is the dishonesty exactly? I just see people making a reading blunder and pushing a nonsensical belief.

It is very tiresome to try reason with the wilfully ignorant.
I'll ignore you from now on but I do suggest you get a KJV Bible and learn to read it.

 

[KingJ]

It is very tiresome to try reason with the wilfully ignorant.
I'll ignore you from now on but I do suggest you get a KJV Bible and learn to read it.

I have three and a Strong's concordance. They do not agree with you.

Perhaps you can snippet a picture of where their footnotes do agree with you?

 

[Christ4Ever]

New Covenant wise, I'd say yes.
If you know of others since Jesus Christ died, that justifies one with God, I'd like to know what they are.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

James says Abraham was justified out of his works. James basically answers this question.

That is why I said "New Covenant".
Paul basically answers this as well.
They are in agreement.

I guess we see it differently. I see the works as a confirmation of your faith in Jesus Christ, while you must from what I gather as being separate one from the other and a requirement to being saved. Which always has me wondering if that is the case, exactly how much of the works is necessary for one to be saved? It would be sad, if you fall short by one work from being saved. For I don't see the amount of work necessary to being saved according to anyone.

I mean what kind of servant sits on their butts doing nothing and expect to be well received who James wanted to shake up? Be a faithful servant brother, and be about the Lord's Business, and you will be fine in Christ Jesus, but not because of anything you did, but because Jesus did it all!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rxlx]

Get thos KJV Study Bibles and read for yourself as your demons prevents you believing what anyone else says.

 

[Rxlx]

I have three and a Strong's concordance. They do not agree with you.

Perhaps you can snippet a picture of where their footnotes do agree with you?

If you were honest you would continue to post 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You obviously prefer to call GOD, Jesus and various Bible writers liars by claiming you will fly off to heaven when you pop your clogs.

 

[Butch5]

Ostrich syndrome. You ignoring the point made.

On the contrary. I showed beyond doubt that works are necessary

Its clearly not a parable. Actual names, actual place. To ignore it would be to insinuate that Jesus was lying. Even if it were a... parable.

This is why I correctly conclude that annihilationist's like you, completely remove it from your bible and hope that calling it a parable means you don't need to acknowledge what Jesus said for half a chapter.

It's clearly not a parable? And yet you gave no evidence to support that claim. That names are used proves nothing. The claim that it's an actual event because names are used is baseless. Ever heard the joke about the three guys who died and met Peter at the pearly gates? I guess that Joke is true because it uses names. That's a nonsensical claim.

What evidence is there that it's a parable? The parable starts out with these words,


19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 16:19.

The parable before this one starts exactly the same.

16 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 16.

The parable before that one starts out

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 15:11.

We're starting to see a pattern here. What other reasons do we know it's a parable? Well, dead people can't speak. Dead people can't see. Dead people don't thirst. Dead people don't make requests on behalf of others.

Repentance of sin. The act carries weight with God per Psalm 51:17 and a lot of verses from Jesus.

Except there wouldn't be any repentance of sin if Christ hadn't died.

Dude. you take a single verse and assume that is the A-Z of a vastly unknown future. That is borderline madness.

One verse? Seriously? Can you provide a single verse that says people go to Heaven when they die?

Irrelevant if you take a single verse as the A-Z of what will happen.

God gave His life for us. Do you think He will stop us travelling to other planets? UFO's and Elon Musk already on that. Imagine us after the first 1000 years in heaven.

Do not limit God. When Christians type ridiculous lines like ''we will be stuck on earth'' they are looking for attention and stumbling the weak into thinking God will be a pain even in heaven. It is not wise.

Wow, you usually at least try to make a case. You're just blowing off everything. It just shows there is no case to be made.

There is truth to us being on earth and many things remaining the same. Humans are humans. But there is also a lot of truth to us being free and God having many unthinkable and exciting things planned for us.

Those things haven't been revealed so claiming what you are is baseless

Firstly, understand the point I made. If Jesus never died, NOBODY would be saved.

Then, please try understanding Psalm 51:17. Repentance of sin is not a 'work', it is a decision from the heart and per Jer 17:9-10 God judges our hearts and minds for 'justification'.

It is true, as already said that works are mentioned in James 1:27 and Rev 2:10. But it would be very important to clarify that these works are very specific works and need to be compared to 'general' works. Works that show a changed heart. Unlike Matt 7:22 type works. Can you be a martyr for Jesus (Rev 2:10) if have not accepted Him as your Lord and Saviour and love Him immensely, I am not so sure.

This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. Trying to break up works into different categories so as to fit one's theology.