Works based salvation ??

[otter_tree]

Revelation 2:2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.​

Revelation 2:19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.​

Revelation 3:14-1 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. “‘I know your works:​

Revelation 3:8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.​

Revelation 3:1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.​

Jesus seems to care so much about our works he makes it the key point to all his people in the Church !! why do some discourage it so much ??

I hear this term (works based salvation ) thrown around a lot with-in Christian communities. It seems to me,, to be a way to discourage anyone from doing what they are created for. And can be very confusing for a baby Christian I am certain !
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

According to the above scripture works is what we are created for, so I wonder why so many discourage it?? I wonder how they discern the heart of a person who is doing a good work??

Work based salvation is not about what you are doing,, as so many seem to claim, its about WHY you are doing what you do !! So how can anyone claim or accuse a person of worked based salvation if they do not know the why behind it??? I have seen this many times in Christian communities.

We know from scripture our work for the kingdom is crucial and important,, as Jesus says in his letter to the churches (we are included in this letter) I know your works.
. The very first thing Jesus states is I know your works, and his whole point of the letters to the churches is to make sure we are doing the work we are made for !! I cant help wonder if Jesus would get accused of works based salvation in today's Christian communities that do not know scripture.

Doing works is evidence of salvation, evidence of God's grace in our lives, we should be excited to do the work God called us to do !!

So how does someone know the heart of a person to accuse anyone of works based salvation? we have no idea of the why behind a persons good works.

I've found those who defend Salvation as something we need to work to secure for ourselves is that what is typically understood as, works based Salvation.

Whereas, the scriptures tell us because we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God it is that what leads us to do good,to work in the service of God and his kingdom.

This isn't to save ourselves.
Rather it is evidence of the fruits due to our salvation.

 

[Butch5]

2 Cor 5:8 and Rev 6:10 speaks to saints being with God when they die. Where is God currently residing?

A. Shanghai, China
B. New York City, USA
C. Heaven

Neither of these say people go to Heaven when they die. Your question, "where is God currently residing" shows that you are deducing your claim from your understanding of these passages. However, I would submit that your understanding of these passages is incorrect. This is clearly seen by the fact that the dead can't speak. Revelation is a book full of symbolism. So, you'll really need to show why anyone would understand that these are actually alive dead people and not symbolic. Yeah, I actually had to say alive dead people. 2 Cor is clearly not saying dead people are alive and go to heaven. If you read it in context it's talking about the Resurrection.

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Co 5.

Notice, two houses (states of being) One is mortal, the other immortal. Notice, he wants the earthly house to be "clothed upon." He wants the heavenly to be put on over the earthly so that, "being clothed we shall not be found naked." He's talking about to bodies (states of being) and he doesn't want to be found naked. He doesn't want to be found in the state that Greek philosophy taught, a spirit without a body. Paul says he doesn't want that. He says, "not for that we would be unclothed but clothed upon." The final proof that this is about the Resurrection is his statement, "that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Your claim that 2 Cor 5:8 has people in Heaven with God, is the exact opposite of what Paul is saying. Paul is saying he doesn't want to be unclothed. That was the Greek hope, not the Christian hope. So, I would again submit, no, no one has debunked it. One cannot debunk truth.

 

[KingJ]

If you were honest you would continue to post 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I have asked you to explain the relevance.

You obviously prefer to call GOD, Jesus and various Bible writers liars by claiming you will fly off to heaven when you pop your clogs.

I have asked you to provide / snippet the footnotes you believe prove your case.

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Rxlx, you are trolling. Not actually adding anything of value. Please take time to properly read a post and provide a sound and efforted reply.

 

[KingJ]

On the contrary. I showed beyond doubt that works are necessary

No, you have dodged the point. In your mind you may think this. I propose you re-red and try again.

It's clearly not a parable? And yet you gave no evidence to support that claim.

Butch, again you miss the point, and we have had this discussion twice before. You completely and utterly remove that passage from your bible. Not a single word in it features in any of your teaching. The only time you reference the passage is to harass someone who listens to and follows what Jesus said for HALF a chapter!

That names are used proves nothing. The claim that it's an actual event because names are used is baseless. Ever heard the joke about the three guys who died and met Peter at the pearly gates? I guess that Joke is true because it uses names. That's a nonsensical claim.

What evidence is there that it's a parable? The parable starts out with these words,


19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 16:19.

The parable before this one starts exactly the same.

16 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 16.

The parable before that one starts out

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Your argument falls on its head as Jesus mentions the name Lazarus.

Then, it is quite understandable for Jesus to not mention the name of someone's great grandfather who is burning in flames. That is a 'Duh' fact surely?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 15:11.

We're starting to see a pattern here. What other reasons do we know it's a parable? Well, dead people can't speak. Dead people can't see. Dead people don't thirst. Dead people don't make requests on behalf of others.

Joy, you now also have this belief. Your crazy and illogical beliefs you hold to are adding up fast.

By completely and utterly rejecting Luke 16 you will arrive at such a silly theory. Now in your defence, playing devil's advocate, I do see a good intent in you to hold to this belief along with annihilationism, so as to defend God. Believing God has people burning in fire in Hades right now and for all eternity is a hard pill to swallow.

I will just say that you don't need to do this. You are clearly cherry-picking words and scriptures. 2 Cor 5:8 alone debunks this.

If you read Luke 16 properly you will see the rich man is not being 'tortured' in fire. Torture akin to a brazen bull. As will be the case for eternity.

Except there wouldn't be any repentance of sin if Christ hadn't died.

Yes, there would. Psalm 51:17 is in the OT.

One verse? Seriously? Can you provide a single verse that says people go to Heaven when they die?

2 Cor 5:8

Wow, you usually at least try to make a case. You're just blowing off everything. It just shows there is no case to be made.

I propose you re-read what I wrote and meditate on it. Imagine thinking that God of the UNIVERSE who gave His life for us will NOT allow Elon Musk to fly to Mars?

I stand by what I said, those who teach we will be earth bound are attention seekers and clearly not thinkers. Earth will be the capital city only.

Those things haven't been revealed so claiming what you are is baseless

Incorrect. Many scriptures mention what we can expect in heaven. When you put them all together you arrive at my logical line.

Example, Jesus rides a horse, there are roads and gates in the new Jerusalem. Alot more scriptures to consider. I have made a post on these a couple months back. I will just say that people do not meditate on scripture and go 'mad' with their theories.

Is a horse: A - A dog, B - A Cat or C- A horse?
Is a gate: A - A door, B - A chimney or C - A gate?
Is a human: A - A dog, B - A monkey or C - A human?

This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. Trying to break up works into different categories so as to fit one's theology.

Trying to sound smart and simply dodging the point made because you have no come back.

Imagine reading the bible and missing all the scriptures mentioning repentance, right heart, faith and what exactly salvation is.

Saying the words ''works- based salvation'' is an insult to the cross. Perhaps you should better define the works you are alluding to? Maybe there is some truth there?

 

[KingJ]

Neither of these say people go to Heaven when they die.

You and many others make a meal of a silly line for attention and don't realise you stumble the weak here. By stating nobody goes to heaven you leave the weak to assume they will not be with God. Accepting Jesus does not qualify us to be with Him in His home. This is a SICK and extremely naive view to hold to. I hope you realise that.

IMAGINE teaching that God of the universe will not welcome a saint into heaven. Sick! belief! Straight from the devil! Plese try understanding this fact.

Your post does not deserve a reply. I type only for the reader:

1. 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Where does God live? A - Shanghai? B - New York? C- Heaven?

2. Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The altar mentioned in verse 9 is in heaven. Here is a link explaining this - The Altar in Revelation (see paragraph 4).

3. Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

What does citizenship mean? A - Illegal alien with no passport, B - resident with a passport?

4. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If the Lord comes down from heaven, and He says we will be with Him forever, does that mean that when we are raptured up with Him at that moment, we go to A - Mars, B - Earth or C - Heaven?

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Please take this evil demonic line you keep pushing and completely and utterly remove it from the words you type. You are better and surely not that naive that you do not realise the damage it can do.

 

[Rxlx]

No one goes to heaven and all the dead are still in their graves.

When Jesus ssaid he had other mansions he may have been referring to th eother planets which GOD made to the same design as Earth - as ball of water and basic elements.
Obviousl Mercury, Venus are too close to sun and others too far but it would take Him much to bring them all into a single orbit suitable for human habitation.
But then all the stars will fall an Earth will be totally remade.
I post this on science websites just to hear the evolutionists and stargazers howl and ban me!