Abortion

[emily445455]

an Apology from a pro-choice Christian

First, let me say that we agree on one very important fundamental- abortion is a terrible tragedy, a great source of sadness for both God and men, and a thing which ought happen as little as possible.

Now let me add two truths-

First- there is not an absolute prescription against murder, and not useful to judge murderers. There are different levels of moral culpability and tragedy. A rapist who gets caught and shoots an entire family is probably more evil than a SWAT sniper who kills a man about to set off a bomb. I am not making a parallel in moral terms between these things- but am instead making the point that there is a difference between God- who equally is hurt by the death of all His children, and legal, even canonical, responsibility. It is for this reason that there are Christian soldiers, prison wardens, and politicians. The fact is that our legal system in some situations countenances murder. The legal argument, then, while far from sound, must be confronted on legal terms in my opinion.

Second- the policy argument is even stronger. The only acceptable goal of public policy in this area is to minimize the number of abortions actually performed. There is strong evidence that banning abortion not only does not significantly reduce the number of abortions performed- but may increase the total number of abortions. It is a certainty that more people die and suffer horribly because of back ally unsafe abortions when it is unlawful. Statistically, education, dealing with poverty, and decreasing crime all have profound effects on abortion rates- far more than banning it. The best we can do, then, is to have a legal system that is pro-choice- where any woman can choose to have an abortion- but none (or as few as possible) do so. That is how I'm a pro choice christian.

IMO, this makes no sense. How can you be for something that makes God very sad? I understand that if it were illegal girls would be getting abortions illegally...but I still can't support the legalization of murder.

 

[rizen1]

an Apology from a pro-choice Christian

First, let me say that we agree on one very important fundamental- abortion is a terrible tragedy, a great source of sadness for both God and men, and a thing which ought happen as little as possible.

Now let me add two truths-

First- there is not an absolute prescription against murder, and not useful to judge murderers. There are different levels of moral culpability and tragedy. A rapist who gets caught and shoots an entire family is probably more evil than a SWAT sniper who kills a man about to set off a bomb. I am not making a parallel in moral terms between these things- but am instead making the point that there is a difference between God- who equally is hurt by the death of all His children, and legal, even canonical, responsibility. It is for this reason that there are Christian soldiers, prison wardens, and politicians. The fact is that our legal system in some situations countenances murder. The legal argument, then, while far from sound, must be confronted on legal terms in my opinion.

Second- the policy argument is even stronger. The only acceptable goal of public policy in this area is to minimize the number of abortions actually performed. There is strong evidence that banning abortion not only does not significantly reduce the number of abortions performed- but may increase the total number of abortions. It is a certainty that more people die and suffer horribly because of back ally unsafe abortions when it is unlawful. Statistically, education, dealing with poverty, and decreasing crime all have profound effects on abortion rates- far more than banning it. The best we can do, then, is to have a legal system that is pro-choice- where any woman can choose to have an abortion- but none (or as few as possible) do so. That is how I'm a pro choice christian.

Yes that's why your pro- choice...

My reason for being pro- life is because when I look in the mirror I thank God, for my mom caring more about me and not herself or her circumstance.

I thank God for his love and grace, because he is the giver of life.

God is life....

The wages of sin is death...last time I checked being conceived is not a sin

People can make mistakes..I can not judge them or condemn them..because my heavenly father forgives and shows mercy. I choose to walk in his light and his ways, therefore I extend a shoulder or an ear for those who had abortions.. But I'm not interested in man's philosophy on morals


I am a member of a couple of Christian and non christian Prolife groups..

A woman has a right..why can a child have a right also..just because by man's definition a fetus is nothing..God see's more than a spot of blood.

I am the voice for those who have no voice.

Abortion is a form of genocide....

Since January 22, 1973 over 50,000,000 babies have had their voices silenced through surgical abortion in this nation alone.

Over 4,000 children have their lives taken each day in the name of choice.

Over 4,000 women are emotionally damaged every day.
Pro-Life Day of Silent Solidarity

 

[Laudite]

IMO, this makes no sense. How can you be for something that makes God very sad? I understand that if it were illegal girls would be getting abortions illegally...but I still can't support the legalization of murder.

There's a distinction between being for abortion and being pro-choice. The thing that I think few people get is that there's broad consensus that abortions are bad. It might be far more productive to give up the fight for a ban and form a coalition for things that have strong, statistically proven records for decreasing the number of abortions such as sex education and alleviating poverty. In any case- there is strong evidence to suggest that the legal status of abortions doesn't significantly alter the number of annual abortions. This is true both of extrapolation of legalization numbers in the US and data from when poland banned abortions.

I'll put it to you this way- I think God does not care a whit if you change the law and ban all abortion. The only account is how many women and fetuses you've helped. The sad thing is that a reframing of the debate and change of objectives could change 'abortion' from a legal issue that cripples and deadlocks the country into a fight to end abortion that all Americans could enthusiastically support.

Just something to think about- I agree with all of your points, rizen (well, maybe not genocide- genocide requires intent to annihilate a group of people- no one advocates annihilating all fetuses, to my knowledge) I just don't see how being pro life has any realistic chance of stopping abortions. If abortion truly is so terrible, doesn't stopping it justify whatever politics are most effective?

 

[emily445455]

There's a distinction between being for abortion and being pro-choice. The thing that I think few people get is that there's broad consensus that abortions are bad. It might be far more productive to give up the fight for a ban and form a coalition for things that have strong, statistically proven records for decreasing the number of abortions such as sex education and alleviating poverty. In any case- there is strong evidence to suggest that the legal status of abortions doesn't significantly alter the number of annual abortions. This is true both of extrapolation of legalization numbers in the US and data from when poland banned abortions.

I'll put it to you this way- I think God does not care a whit if you change the law and ban all abortion. The only account is how many women and fetuses you've helped. The sad thing is that a reframing of the debate and change of objectives could change 'abortion' from a legal issue that cripples and deadlocks the country into a fight to end abortion that all Americans could enthusiastically support.

Just something to think about- I agree with all of your points, rizen (well, maybe not genocide- genocide requires intent to annihilate a group of people- no one advocates annihilating all fetuses, to my knowledge) I just don't see how being pro life has any realistic chance of stopping abortions. If abortion truly is so terrible, doesn't stopping it justify whatever politics are most effective?

I just want to stop seeing babies getting murdered. I don't really care about all the politics behind it, I just want the murder to stop

 

[rizen1]

Please lets put aside all the philosophy, physcology and political correctness terms and phrases...and see abortion for what it is...Murder.

Look at the numbers...50,000,000 babies , you don't have to be a voice for these victims but some of us choose to...

But what I find very silly, when a man kill his wife and unborn baby..he is charged with 2 counts of murder...such hypocrisy.. I guess its ok to kill the baby once its the mother holding the knife.

Abortion...sorry I mean Family Planning is a form of genocide...a camouflage form I must say.

The only reason abortion is seen as ok..was when it was first introduced they had to change the meaning of fetus..it was no longer seen as human. Now man has put themselve above God to say where life begins....

I am prochoice...
I believe women have the choice to keep their legs closed.
I believe women have the choice to not have sex before marriage.
I believe women have the choice to be more responsible when sexually active.

I believe a fetus...should have the choice to breathe
I believe a fetus...should have the choice to speak out.
I believe a fetus..should have a choice to live.

This might be hard to believe but there are alot of Pro life groups...not all christians, and we will have the victory...even if abortion is legal, if we can prevent one girl from entering that butcher Mill aka abortion mill...our job was done.

It takes one voice...

How many undocumented deaths are there on mothers who didn't make it through, the procedure...How many women suffer mental health issues after having an abortion.
How many women are hurt medically due to an abortion.

The numbers are not going to be made public, because its politics over life. Morals out the door.

If anyone knows the History, please share who or what type of people was abortion meant for, also does the fact that most abortion mills are in poor neighborhoods say anything...When I was in NY, in queens and brooklyn I saw many mills, travelled into Long island there was none seen..( I'm sure they have though )

Choice is the face of evil through our History books.....
the Holocaust...religious choice

lynchings of Afro-Americans and Native Americans exterminated ..Racial choice

Killing of unborn babies...Reproductive choice

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[Laudite]

Please lets put aside all the philosophy, physcology and political correctness terms and phrases...and see abortion for what it is...Murder.

Eh... and in putting aside those terms you give up the key ground in the battle and doom yourself to failure. Yes, it's murder- now what are you going to do about it?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Rizen1:

I think that the statement "Un-Christlike Christians hate conflict more than they hate evil" needs to be re-worded so that it begins with "Un-Christlike people..." I don't disagree with the point you are making; it's just that, in truth, there is no such thing as an un-Christlike Christian.

"Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than going to your garage makes you a car." (Billy Sunday)

SLE

 

[rizen1]

Rizen1:

I think that the statement "Un-Christlike Christians hate conflict more than they hate evil" needs to be re-worded so that it begins with "Un-Christlike people..." I don't disagree with the point you are making; it's just that, in truth, there is no such thing as an un-Christlike Christian.

"Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than going to your garage makes you a car." (Billy Sunday)

SLE

Well for one I can't edit someone else's work but I believe, it was meant to be an oxymoron. But I do understand.

Laudite Quote:
Originally Posted by rizen1
Please lets put aside all the philosophy, physcology and political correctness terms and phrases...and see abortion for what it is...Murder.

Eh... and in putting aside those terms you give up the key ground in the battle and doom yourself to failure. Yes, it's murder- now what are you going to do about it?

Being a voice for those who don't have any, talking to people like you ( pro- choice ) prayer and fast, meeting with people and giving up my voice( duct taping "LIFE " to my mouth )
To name a few.

Laudite, I'm a bit suprise you didn't respond to anything I wrote, but asked a question. Did you read any of my posts ?

Because you would have read this and not asked that question.

rizen
I am a member of a couple of Christian and non christian Prolife groups

From your own words

Yes, it's murder

I'm happy we are at common grounds that abortion is murder..thank you

God bless.

 

[Laudite]

My question isn't a personal press, rather it's meant to propose a focus on action. Being in groups and protesting and such is action, certainly. What I'm questioning is the effectiveness of that action. Does your personal experience show that those techniques are very effective? The statistical data shows that overall they're pretty ineffective. The majority of your posts have been about how outrageous abortions are. Yelling the outrageousness of abortion will change some minds- but not enough. You have to put as much thought into the right action as to your consideration of the evil. The outrage of people such as yourself is not useful for two reasons. First, biblically Romans 2 tells us that outrage is sinful and cuts us off from the Lord. A more biblical approach is to love the sinner and help them to avoid sin. It seems like protesting at clinics is a bit like screaming at a man in debt not to sell his car for money. It would probably be much more effective to help the man avoid debt in the first place, if you want him not to sell his car. Second, this sort of outrage is encouraged and appropriated by politicians. It is very good at polarizing and bringing out the far right to vote- not so great with any other portion of the electorate. If politicians really cared about abortions they could pass laws on sex education and poverty reduction that could prevent thousands of abortions and be passed with no objection. Instead they focus on ineffective and controversial restrictions that have minimal effect on the overall happening of abortion. The court isn't going to overturn roe v wade- the wink and nudge nominations obscure a basic fact. Cheif Justice Roberts oblique assurances are less instructive than his writings about the need for stare decisis and judicial legitimacy. Overturning roe would destroy the legitimacy and authority of the court for a generation- perhaps Scalia will do it, but there's no chance of a majority.

So- the question boils down to this: I'll stipulate to abortion being murder. I find that I have an obligation to act to prevent as much murder as possible. If murder being legal results in less murder, isn't that not just justifiable but the most moral course of action? To put it in different terms, there was a man beset by bandits on the road to the city...

 

[naomigenesis]

*sobsob* really meaningful. It really bring tears to me where nowadays people can just simply go to any clinics, give a sum of money, and there goes their fetus. The act is definately wrong, and many consequences can occur from there, such as to the mother's health and a lot more. By abortion, ppl now can simply act, without thinking about the concequences of the act. Thus, there's where random sexual activities are widely spread!

 

[Coconut]

First, biblically Romans 2 tells us that outrage is sinful and cuts us off from the Lord. A more biblical approach is to love the sinner and help them to avoid sin. ..

Notatation:

Romans 2 tells us no such thing. Woe unto the prophets if that were true.

That whole chapter is preceded by the statement in Roms 1:32 "Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." and as you can see is addressed to those
"who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself"
as repeated in chapter 2:3.

2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?

To put it in simple terms, there was a man who`s name was John...:wink:

John 1:23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."

 

[rizen1]

Laudite I think you need to sit don't with a Pro-life, person because your views about our actions are so " stereotyped by this Godless society " of ours.

Our actions are of Love, not hate, not condemnation.

Please read my post, I think your missing alot from what I said.

We work with those who already had abortions and those who are considering having one.

Your're a christian right, would it be fair for me to question a street Minister..
Why do you hand out those tracks don't you know that statistics show 90% of them would end up in the garbage or the sidewalks. What are the effectiveness of that action.

That minister would say.. " Spreading the Truth is more important, than worrying about statistics.

I serve a mighty and able God and trust me, being pro-life does help. If you want to believe the media when they say " Pro-life are rude, inconsiderate, without compassion "

I can say the same about those who support those death camps. My outrage has been demontrated in love, please quote me where my outrage was a sin.
Also I don't think your reading my post, I'm reading yours and answering it, your just avoiding everything I write, how about discussing the statistics I've posted.

I'm open to hear you, but I expect the same from you, if I'm wrong you must quote me and show me where I went wrong.

 

[Janette]

40,000,000

Earlier this year, the number of children murdered by abortion since Roe v. Wade reached the mind numbing number of FORTY MILLION in the United States. These numbers come from the *recorded* "legal" abortion records of legal facilities, and are a matter of public record. They were most recently tabulated by the Center for Moral Clarity.

---

Approximately 3700 abortions *per day* are performed in the United States alone.

To give you some comparison:

We could nuke the entire population of the city of New York and not have near as much blood on our hands as we've tallied so far.

San Andraes fault could *sink* the state of California, and the casualties would be fewer.

The entire Nazi holocaust -- infamous for creating "death trucks" which were capable of murdering 90,000 people a day -- totaled less than 1/8th the carnage listed in that 40 million abortion figure.

The number of deaths from Hiroshima and Nagasaki - combined - were only 100,000.

The entire state of Texas - the largest well-populated state in America, comes out to just over *half* that figure, if you were to systematically exterminate every man, woman, and child listed in the 2006 census.

To give you a DAILY comparison - the number of people murdered in one day druing the Septmber 11th, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center was tabulated to be 2998 people. That's over 700 fewer than are murdered DAILY by abortion.

And these figures are just for the United States.

----

Laying aside for a moment the idea that "single celled" life is somehow less precious to God than any other life, let us consider some things known about human embryos:

A human being is technically NEVER a single celled lifeform. The moment a ***** fertilizes an egg, a division occurs and the zygote contains at least two "cells" (technically they are not distinct cells but blastomeres).

Just six days after fertilization, a mother and her baby begin exchanging nutrients through the developing placenta. At this point, the mother is feeding the baby and the baby *cannot* continue to perform any "chemical processes" without the nutrients obtained from the mother. This utterly destroys the godless argument that a baby is somehow just a "clump of chemical material" for any length of time. What *else* did God accomplish in six days?

13 days after conception, the placenta solidly attaches to its spot on the uterine wall and the baby begins making hematopoietic *blood cells* -- Nonliving things do not have blood. At this point - less than two weeks after the moment of conception - to "abort" a baby is to *spill human blood*.

At 21 days after conception - the cells which will become a baby's eyes are clearly visible as two circular regions in the "head" area of the embryo. If the eyes are truly the "window to the soul" what does this mean for that tiny infant inside a mother's womb? At this point the blood cells are fully formed and have begun travelling within the embryo's body, and the baby is beginning to differentiate organ cells and form blood vessels.

At 25 days a primitive S-shaped tubal heart is beating and peristalsis, the rhythmic muscle contractions propelling fluids throughout the body, begins. The forebrain is usually completely closed by this point.

At 30 days the arches that form the face and neck are now becoming evident under the enlarging forebrain. By the time the neural tube is closed, both the eye and ear will have begun to form. At this stage, the brain and spinal cord together are the largest and most compact tissue of the embryo. How many "clumps of matter" do you know with brains and spines?

And all this is before a baby is even a month old in the womb.

At 40 days...

The baby's brain is well marked by its cerebral hemispheres. The hindbrain, which is responsible for heart regulation, breathing and muscle movements, begins to develop.

The future lower jaw, the first part of face to be established, is now visible while future upper jaw is present, but not demarcated.

Mesenchymal cells originating in the primitive streak, the neural crest and the prechordal plate, continue to form the skull and the face.

External retina pigment is visible and the lens pit has grown into a D shape. The baby's eyes are now uniquely human. Nasal pits are still two separate plates, but they rotate to face ventrally as head widens.

The primary cardiac tube separates into aortic and pulmonary channels and the ventricular pouches deepen and enlarge, forming a common wall with their myocardial shells. Mammary gland tissue begins to mature and the baby, if female, will begin to differentiate out the cells dedicated to providing life-giving milk to her own children someday.

The mesentery, which attaches the intestines to the rear abdominal wall, holds them in position and supplies them with blood, nerves and lymphatics, is now clearly defined. Ureter, the tube that will convey urine from the kidney to the bladder, continues to lengthen.

The hand region of the upper limb bud differentiates further to form a central carpal part and a digital plate (the baby gets a thumb!). The thigh (rostrolateral part), leg (the caudomedial part) and foot areas can be distinguished in the lower limb buds.

---

I weep for the mothers who have been convinced by wicked deceivers that their babies were ever anything OTHER than babies. I mourn for a society that has left women so abandoned and used that killing their children ever seems like a "viable" option.

You have the right to choose:

Not to have sex until you are ready to be a mother (or father).
Not to blame the innocent child you carry for the rape you suffered.
Not to keep custody of the child you've conceived once it is born if you feel unfit.

But you never - never - have the right to choose whether or not an innocent baby deserves to live or die.

---

I believe God will forgive those who have made this "choice" to destroy their children - if they seek Him and understand the error of their ways.

God's power and mercy is shown in the Grace which has saved Norma McCorvey (the original "Jane Roe") who now leads a ministry that is trying to overturn the original Roe v. Wade decision. If *she* can see the error of her ways, then perhaps there is hope for the rest of the world.

What can we do *now*? Share these statistics. Take your friends to a "visual embryo" website and *see* the developing baby. Be active in your community and your local politics, supporting those who support God. Start a movement in your church to open women's homes for unwed mothers, to bring Godly sex education to teens, to reform adoption laws so that mothers do not feel "trapped" into having abortions.

And pray.

 

[rizen1]

Thanks for that article, in a previous post I had photos.

Choice is the face of evil through our History books.....

the Holocaust...religious choice

lynchings of Afro-Americans and Native Americans exterminated ..Racial choice

Killing of unborn babies...Reproductive choice



But here is a video

http://www.talkjesus.com/streaming-multimedia/20792-truth-about-abortion-warning-graphic.html

http://www.talkjesus.com/streaming-multimedia/20794-powerful-prayer-against-abortion-join-me.html

 

[SpiritLedEd]

If murder being legal results in less murder, isn't that not just justifiable but the most moral course of action?

Laudite: the logic behind this statement mystifies me. Murder being legal would only eliminate murder as a punishable criminal offense, it would not eliminate the sin. Therefore, there would be no more murders in the legal sense only. Would that result in fewer people being killed in what was once called murder? Certainly not.

God is Pro-Life, He is not Pro-Choice no matter how many Bible toting, smooth talking priests and ministers line up as Pro-Choice. Making abortion legal does not elimnate the sin. I think it is interesting to note that the lady who was the "Jane Roe" in Roe vs Wade is now a Pro-Life Christian and campaigns actively and tirelessly against abortion on demand.

SLE

 

[michael74]

remember abortion is a sin like all others, condem it, and you condem yourselves, if you want to pass judgment on this then cast yourself down as a prostitute, live the life, then, and only then will you see that even your strenght is a mile higher than the bottom and you cant ansaw for those, these people wont be judged, you will. dont play games you dont understand the rules of.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Mike,

Not sure if you got your wires crossed, brother?

We are not condemned any which way... for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8)
and,
condemning the sin, is not condemning the 'sinner', so your comment is not really in context.
Sure, there are many variables that influence peoples decisions, and abortion is just one of many that haunts mankind, but, that does not make allowance nor make it approvable or just, and whatever the reason, abortion is still abortion.

Another point that requires attention on this issue is that those babes that have been killed, are now dead....and we can not change that fact.... but, it is still possible that babies now and in the future can live. Condemning anyone doesn't help anything here, and those mothers who have had abortions carried out on themselves and their babies, have to live with that memory, which is very hard to do.... and while what they have done is anti-life for babies (future adults?), our concern in this issue is about seeing abortion stopped, so no more innocent babes have their lives stolen by, of all people, their own parents.

So, your comment about condemnation, although speaking up for a few women who have a hard lot, is not really applicable to anti-abortion.

Bless you for caring about those who suffer, Mike.

Br. Bear

 

[Janette]

You don't have to tell them twice

Let me say that I have not, do not, and never will condemn the women who have chosen to have abortions. I weep for them.

Do not confuse the sin with the sinner - I don't.

Have you ever spoken to those women? I have. Know what I've found? The vast majority don't need to be told what they did was terrible. They know. The vast majority are women who have that first abortion, and then live with the horror of it eating away at them while they try to go on with their lives. Most women don't have two abortions. I didn't write the article for them. They already know the truth because it's written in the blood of the babies they were decieved into killing.

I held one such woman in my arms while she cried because she (now finally married) thought that God was punishing her by not allowing her to have any more children (she did eventually conceive). She was not, and probably is not Saved...but she knew the depth of her sin. But *someone* had convinced her that she couldn't possibly finish college if she had "a child to contend with" and that it was "just a clump of cells" and she could "just have the baby later." The worst part of the stupidity she was fed was that if "the baby was meant to live" then "its soul would surely be returned in a new body when she was ready." Such are the lies the bloodthirsty supporters of abortion will tell a weakened mother.

These women are ALWAYS victims.

They are victims of the doctors who tell them everything will be fine and that an abortion isn't nearly as "hard on the body" as a miscarriage and that the chances of the abortion causing fertility problems later is "extremely low."

They are victims of poverty that this world absolutely has the resources to overcome (but we don't).

They are victims of rape and defilement that traumatizes them into considering abortion.

They are victims of immature men who play at love then disappear when they should be standing up as husbands and fathers. (And many of those men are victims of a society that doesn't teach them their responsibilities as well).

They are victims of backward godless cultures which have objectified them and denied them a sense of worth such that they were tossing aside their purity in the first place.

They are the victims of a downright terrible adoption system that fails on almost every count to do a decent job of making it in any way easier to put a child up for adoption than abort him or her. (It's easier in the US to adopt a child from a foreign country than to connect with a mother in your own state who wants to give her child up for adoption.)

They are victims of "holier-than-thou" pressure from friends, family, and often thier own churches that make them think an abortion in secret is preferable to the bitterness they face from those who should be providing the most support.

They are the victims of diseases which in most cases could have been prevented had larger issues of poverty and health and education been handled in their society.

I don't condemn these women. I see them as on par with cancer victims. You don't "ask" for cancer. When it strikes, it's a horrible thing. But while I can't think of a way for a secular doctor or activist to deceive a person into getting cancer...you *can* be deceived into thinking abortion is a viable or even "moral" alternative. Those of us who know the TRUTH about how evil abortion really is are the only thing standing between these women and the lies that make abortion seem "ok." We have to get to them - before they "choose" to let their children die.

I HATE cancer. It killed my dad, and it disfigured my mother in law. I spend my life wondering whether or not - had any of us been Saved at the time - we could have turned to Christ and received a healing that the secular doctors could not provide. But we came late to our Salvations and therefore late to the table of the Lord to share His blessings. The majority of these women are also coming late to the Lord's table. They don't know a God who loves them and provides for their need. They know only the wilderness and they're terrified to bring a child into it.

I HATE abortion. It's a filthy dirty bloody sin that snuffs the life out of precious children.

There is a quote: "The birth of a child is God expressing His opinion about whether or not the world should go on."

What opinion then do we express by allowing such murder to continue? We've legalized it - which is a society's way of saying "this is ok - it's a good thing."

Do you not see the sickening hypocrisy in sending those who shoot up high schools to prison, while paying those who perform abortions six figure incomes?

Can you *imagine* the carnage if those 3700 dead children littered the streets instead of being hidden in biohazard containers?

Imagine the news headline: Thirty seven hundred children were murdered today in what the media is calling the most horriffic and bloody massacre seen since the Nazi deathcamps like Mauthasen and Auschwitz.

And we'd have to run the story - every day. Only the media wouldn't call it a massacre - they'd call it "an enlightened society making the rights of the individual woman paramount over the preferences of the mob rule of the majority or the government" (taken from a NOW pamphlet).

---

So what can we change?

We can stop supporting abortion. And if you aren't part of the solution, then you are a silent part of the problem.

We can be *sure* we pick the candidates who are against it and take the time to vote for them.

We can lobby within *Conservative* groups to overturn the rediculous and illogical "all or nothing" mentality that puts "medically desperate/necessary" abortion on the same ticket as abortions of "convenience."

We can research our local adoption laws and push for reforms so that adoptive parents aren't bankrupted by "baby broker" fees and mothers wishing to give up their children are not taken advantage of by a system that wants to sell their children for profit.

We can take some of the billions of dollars churches collect every year and put it towards Christian adoption homes so these mothers have a place to go for aid.

We can support the grass-roots movement to demand insurance reform such that an insurance company would be required to cover the birth expenses for an adoption just as they would be required to cover a direct pregnancy.

We can hit the streets in ministry and teach women to value themselves so highly as handmaidens of the Almighty God that they would *never* be with a man who asked them to abase themselves in an ungodly union of flesh.

We can hit those same streets and preach to men discipline and dignity so that they respect their girlfriends and protect their daughters and so that they view "the right course" of action to be choosing to become a husband and *then* a father - in that order.

Or we can argue on online forums about whether or not abortion is really a sin.

Time is growing short, and there are more child sacrifices to Satan in America and the world today than were ever performed for the demonic false gods in Babylon. The "ziggurats" of abortion clinics flow with *rivers* of infant blood and the only thing filling those room with "patients" are the combined medical and societal lies of Satan that convinced those women it was ok to be there.

And we watch, and we argue legalities, and we actually debate whether changing a mortal law changes the definition of murder such that God wouldn't mind that we're letting 3700 of the babies He brought to conception die before they are even born, and we pretend like it's not our problem.

When I die, I want to die being able to look Jesus Christ in the eyes and say "I knew it was wrong, and I tried to rally Your people to stop it."

I know that *I* will not end abortion in this country or any other.

But if *one* woman reads an article I post and stops to think "maybe I shouldn't do this" and *one* child is saved, then it was worth any discomfort I caused to those not ready to help me stop the slaughter.

 

[Janette]

Uh...no

Quote to me the passage where I or risen1 condemned the women having abortions.

Bear no witness against us, you lack the authority.

remember abortion is a sin like all others, condem it, and you condem yourselves,

And what unbiblical error is this?

Show me where in Scripture says "do not condem sin, do not say an evil thing (not person!) is an evil thing (not person!)"

YOU ARE NOT YOUR SIN!!!

We are to hate sin whenever and wherever we find it.
We are to love our brothers (and sisters) as ourselves.
The two are not mutually exclusive, and both are commanded of us by God.

Be as wise as a Serpent about the nature of sin. Know what it is and what it is not lest you be taken unawares.

Be as gentle as a Dove when speaking to the sinner, for vengeance and judgment belong to the Lord.

What's the confusion?

if you want to pass judgment on this then

I don't *have* to pass judgement on this. God already gave His Word on the matter:

The Bible contains exactly one passage which deals explicitly with causing the death of an unborn child. It is in Exodus Chapter 21, the next chapter after the 10 commandments, and the chapter in which the penalties for murder are specified.

The verses that deal with causing the death of an unborn child are verses 22 through 25 which read as follows:

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief (the pregnancy continues and the child is born normally) follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:22-25 (KJV)

The assumption by the narrow interpreters who don't take the time to learn anything about the languages in which God chose to write His Scripture is that if two men get into a fight and hit a woman with a child then this law follows, but otherwise it doesn't apply.

But the language of the text is far more general than that and would on a legal basis indicate that if any member of mankind is in the process of doing anything that causes harm to a woman with a child, then this law comes into play.

Paul taught that the Law was given to us so we would know what Sin was. Well...there's one example of a Sin - harming a woman with a child in any way = sin and if the child died the penalty was death, just like for any other murder.

cast yourself down as a prostitute, live the life, then, and only then will you see that even your strenght is a mile higher than the bottom and you cant ansaw for those,

Been there, done that. A prostitute is usually someone who feels they "have" to sell their bodies to survive. I didn't sell mine, I gave it away carelessly purely for the ungodly pleasures to be obtained. I suspect God sees our sins as equally bad, but for my part I'd say I was worse than most prostitutes because I didn't even have the illusion of necessity to trick me into my evil ways.

It took me almost a decade to get from that life to this one. I'm not always fast, but I got here, and as I don't see myself as particularly gifted or special, I am *certain* other women can get here too.

I want them to have more information and more help than I got along the way.

these people wont be judged,

Yes, they definiately will, just not by me.

you will.

Absolutely. But not by you.

dont play games you dont understand the rules of.

This isn't a game.

---

Your desire to defend the women victimized into having abortions is admirable for they are surely a group that needs support - but your focus is wholly misplaced.

Defend them *before* they have the abortion when Satan is trying to steal their babies!

Fight for their RIGHT to accurate medical information about abortion.
Fight for their RIGHT to adequate health care should they keep the child.
Fight for their RIGHT to adoption options that actually help them.
Fight for ther RIGHT to support so they can be empowered to keep the baby.
Fight for their RIGHT to see themselves as too precious to sell or give their purity away.
Fight for their RIGHT to only be courted by men who don't put them in this position by intimidating them into sex in the first place.
Fight for their RIGHT to safe streets so they never face a rape pregnancy.

And if nothing else, fight for their RIGHT to know that Jesus loves them whether they are a princesses or prostitutes and that only He can make them whole -- the only thing an abortion makes is a hole - the absent W is very important.

By all means be a comforter of those already stricken if you are Called to it and able ... but the time for flashy heroics is long past if an inant lies dead in an unmarked laboratory grave because you were busy politely waiting until Satan was done with these women before you felt the need to speak up.

After they have the abortion, support them still. Love them. Help them heal.

But do not pretend that you aid them in any way by trying powerlessly to rewrite their action as something other than the sin that it was.

If you succeed...if you convince them that they did no wrong...then you will be as guilty of deceiving them as those who led them to kill their child in the first place.

Unrepentant sin damages one's fellowship with God. And it's often the main thing that keeps the unsaved from fully accepting Jesus and reaching Salvation.

Why would you want to put someone under that curse?

I don't think I'm the one who doesn't understand the rules.

 

[Jesus's always]

Hi everyone, long time no see...
Wow, abortion is such a complicated topic. Sin is sin no matter what. We cant rationalize and make right what God calls wrong. Actually science teaches that life begins right at fertilization, no compromise that even the zygote has life. But some times, abortion cases are not as clear cut as we think. There are cases where the life of the mother has been put in danger and you cant save the mother unless you abort the baby. I mean if it was a christian, God would lead that person what ever measure they take. But if it was not a christian, I dont know, it is hard. Many cases like these come to the hospital, ectopic implantations and induced abortion and christian doctors are put in dilemma.