Abortion

learning2love · Feb 3, 2010

You must first ask when does a person become a human being? What makes it a life? Brainwaves? A heartbeat? These things happen just a couple weeks after conception. I believe life starts at conception.

PaladinGirl · Feb 3, 2010

learning2love said:
You must first ask when does a person become a human being? What makes it a life? Brainwaves? A heartbeat? These things happen just a couple weeks after conception. I believe life starts at conception.

No, you got it wrong. I said that you first need to prove when the zygote becomes a person, not when a person becomes a human being. The zygote is a human life form from the moment of conception. That, however, does not make it a person.

So we ask, what makes a human life form a person? The answer is simple, it is ensoulment. In other words, when a human life form such as a fetus finally receives its soul, it is then a person. However, the human life form does not gain a soul until it breathes its first breath of life. I would send you some links explaining this but I currently do not have enough posts to do so.

Giggles4God · Feb 3, 2010

Just because someone says the fetus isn't a person doesn't make having an abortion and stopping the growth of the baby right.

What does God say about unborn children?

Giggles4God · Feb 3, 2010

Here's something, too.

I went to freedictionary.com

and this is what it said for the phrase human being.

human being
n
a member of any of the races of **** sapiens; person; man, woman, or child

So the words human being and person are the same thing.

Emily Ruth · Feb 4, 2010

If the government's definition of murder is to stop a beating heart and brainwaves of a person then abortion is murder.

While 30 years ago we had little evidence to prove that the child was a separate human being, today we have:
DNA - it is unique
Fingerprints - they are unique
Blood type - often different than the mothers
Gender - often different than the mothers

So clearly they are a separate person so ending their heart beat and brain waves by another person must, by legal definition define abortion as murder.

Instead - the president and pro-choice group want to redefine the viability of a child to be if they are 'wanted.'

That is on par with the logic used in whether or not a slave could be killed - the decision was up to the owner of the slave if they were 'wanted.'

All of the arguments to defend slavery are identical to the ones defending abortion. They seek to define who is and is not a human being and protected by the constitution.

But the scary thing now is that the definitions being used today will be applied to the growing swell of elderly of the baby boomers who's needs are unsustainable as the social security and medicare social programs are broke and cannot provide the services they were promised when they paid into it all those years they worked and it is unsustainable with the paying in of the upcoming generations.

This is one of the reasons they are trying to bring in all the illegal aliens - to replace all the aborted babies to help pay into a fund to shore up the financial commitments that our government cannot keep because they have bled the bank accounts of those funds - dry.

Bottom line - the retiring generation best take a hard cold look at Terry Schiavo and the abortion logic and see their own future in death at the generation in power's hands if this tide doesn't turn.

savedtoserve · Feb 4, 2010

humans

As human we question all things, as Christians we have a decerning spirit that allows us to know what is right in the eyes of GOD.
God is beyond our week and feeble minds, we have free chooses in life, do we get salvation of not, do we believe a fetus is a human being.
God gives life and it is not ours to take, a baby being formed in the womb is a gift from God he tells us that He knew us in our mothers womb.
Let us not be God and judge let us live truth and live the judgement to God.

Holly3278 · Feb 5, 2010

You can't easily say that abortion is right. In fact, you can't say that at all without being wrong. The Bible says the following about children:

(Jeremiah 1:5 NAB-A) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.

Here we see that God knows of us, even before we were born. We see how important a person is in God's eyes, even before they are born.

(Psalms 139:13 NAB-A) III You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother's womb.
(Psalms 139:14 NAB-A) I praise you, so wonderfully you made me; wonderful are your works! My very self you knew;
(Psalms 139:15 NAB-A) my bones were not hidden from you, When I was being made in secret, fashioned as in the depths of the earth.
(Psalms 139:16 NAB-A) Your eyes foresaw my actions; in your book all are written down; my days were shaped, before one came to be.

Here we see about God's part in creating the child in the womb.

(Isaiah 44:2 NAB-A) Thus says the LORD who made you, your help, who formed you from the womb: Fear not, O Jacob, my servant, the darling whom I have chosen.

Here we see a specific person being talked about in the context of being in the womb. This clearly means that we are persons even while in the womb.

(Isaiah 49:1 NAB-A) Hear me, O coastlands, listen, O distant peoples. The LORD called me from birth, from my mother's womb he gave me my name.

Here we see that God has a plan four lives, even since the time that we were in the womb.

Darian · Feb 6, 2010

PaladinGirl said:
No, you got it wrong. I said that you first need to prove when the zygote becomes a person, not when a person becomes a human being. The zygote is a human life form from the moment of conception. That, however, does not make it a person.

So we ask, what makes a human life form a person? The answer is simple, it is ensoulment. In other words, when a human life form such as a fetus finally receives its soul, it is then a person. However, the human life form does not gain a soul until it breathes its first breath of life. I would send you some links explaining this but I currently do not have enough posts to do so.

Hi PaladinGirl,
God sees it thus, from the book of Hebrews, chapter 7:

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

God is the God who punishes the children for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. The reason is discovered in the two verses from Hebrews above.

Levi was said by God to have paid tithes to God while still in the loins of his ancestor Abraham. Abraham fathered Isaac, Isaac fathered Jacob, and Jacob fathered Levi.

Levi committed an act of righteous obedience to God three generations before he was born. Conversely, Levi shares responsibility for the sins of Abraham because he was there with Abraham when such sins were committed, being present in the body of Abraham. Present at the scene of the crime so to speak.

In light of these scriptures, you were a soul and a person at least three full generations before you drew your first breath, or were even conceived.

P.S. The phrase "when Melchisedec met him" refers to Levi, not to Abraham, as Levi was to become the father of the Levite Priesthood under Melchisedec, who is Christ. So Christ met with Levi three generations before Levi was conceived.

Emily Ruth · Feb 6, 2010

Darian - I apologize for jumping into this discussion between the two of you but you are bringing up scriptures and ideas that I researched extensively.

One thing that people do is to take a scripture out of context and apply it with a broad brush to all people. It isn't until we take the WHOLE counsel of God that we see the truth.

Ezekiel 18
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: 15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from sin
and takes no usury or excessive interest.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Rev 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

As for the seed in the loins of the father prior to them being conceived I humbly submit to you that you are misapplying that scripture. Now that we have the ability to clone a human being from just one cell - a flake of skin, a strand of hair, etc. - would mean that a billion of us exist in those cells?

What was being said in that scripture is that long before they were even conceived - those things existed. Not that they existed long before they were conceived. It was a time reference only - not a comment about when someone existed.

If I misunderstood you - please forgive me.

Darian · Feb 6, 2010

Hi Emily,
Let me clarity just a bit,

The point is, that Christ came to meet with Levi three generations before Levi was conceived. Scripture declaring clearly that Levi was "there" on the scene, in the body of Abraham three generations before Abraham fathered Levi.

Scripture also clearly states in Exodus 34:

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Indeed, a man shall not die for his father's sin, but he shall be punished for them. Also, once a son is born, his father's sins afterward cannot reflect upon the son. (Although all curses are removed in Christ. Get born again and the bill is paid, all curses are lifted.)

But even so, these scriptures are used here to point out that God considers each of us to have been credited with righteousness, or sin, generations before conception, because we are there in the bodies of our fathers several generations in advance of our appearing in our own bodies. The purpose being ultimately to show, in truth, that the soul is made before the flesh that receives it is conceived. Therefore abortion cannot under any circumstance be performed, having a conscience that is able to say, "it is not a soul, it is not a person". The soul of the child is resident in the father before the childs flesh is conceived.

Emily Ruth · Feb 6, 2010

Darian:

Levi was not present in any way. It is a huge stretch to say he was and supports Mormonism that we pre-exist which I do not agree with.

While I agree with you and applaud your conclusion - the premises you are basing them on are not something I would want to use because they are not based in truth, in my humble opinion of course.

The idea that the children suffer for the sins of the father is in context against that specific group of people because of their specific sin.
It is not something that can be passed down as what God does all the time.

But more specifically - there are three kinds of sin:

Rebellion against God and the sin of rejection of His love and grace and that sin is the one that leads to death.

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Sin against others - this sin is forgiven by the consequences in the temporal remains.

Sin within and to ourselves that ultimately hurt our witness which also affects our eternal rewards: lying, indulgences are two.

But the scriptures make it clear that we are held accountable for our own sins alone.

Deut 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

The sins that a father or mother do will almost always affect several generations who are scarred and struggle due to their parent's sin.

Incest is one of those sins. A child who is molested by a parent will never have a normal life and they will pass along the dysfunctions that the incest created in them - to their children. It takes generational distance for the effects of that sin to fully resolve -as long as the actual sin is not repeated in the future generations.

I think that rather than trying to stretch scripture to say something it clearly does not (and is highly controversial) - we should focus on the heart beat and brain waves and get people to recognize these little lives and use 'their' definitions to start to grow more support for pro-life.

Once they start to see them as tiny humans who, if their heart stops and brain waves cease due to the malicious act of another is murder - then how much more they start to realize that the interference in any tiny life that has begun to form deserves the right to be born.

That is the focus and direction where my heart sees potential.

Darian · Feb 7, 2010

?

Okay Emily,
Please explain the following scripture, where Levi is said to have paid tithes while still in the body of his ancestor, three generations before he was conceived.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Emily Ruth · Feb 7, 2010

Darian said:
Okay Emily,
Please explain the following scripture, where Levi is said to have paid tithes while still in the body of his ancestor, three generations before he was conceived.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

First, the scripture you are extracting to make an incorrect conclusion is one that is talking about Melchizedec (who is believed to be Jesus)
not trying to teach pre-existence.

Second, I am not sure which version you are reading from but I like the NIV. The NIV use the words in 9 = One MIGHT say

But since this is so important - we certainly should look at it in context. Many man built doctrines which are not supported by the whole counsel of God are built on one or two lines of scripture taken out of context here and there in the Bible.

So lets look at it in context:
Hebrews 7

Melchizedek the Priest

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. 4Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. 6This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. 8In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
Jesus Like Melchizedek

11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."a</a>]"> 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "b</a>]"> 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completelyc</a>]"> those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After reading that scripture in context - it is speaking about how that which is paid or that which is promised extends to generations.

That scripture says: It was as IF Levi paid the tithes because their generations received the benefits. Just as passing down an inheritance to your children. While they enjoy the fruits of your labor, they did not labor with you to produce it.

Hebrews 7 is talking about the inheritance of faith that God honored in Abraham and Abraham passed down to Isaac and Isaac to Jacob.

It honors the promises and inheritance of God - the promise of redemption - and honoring the lineage of Abraham because of Abraham's faith.

That scripture says that the decedents of Abraham received the promises through an inheritance and the promise was as fresh and whole to Levi as it was to Isaac - almost as IF Levi were alive when they were given.

Have you ever heard that something happened when you were just a glint in your father's eye? Do you really think that before you were born you were in your father's eye? It is an idiom that speaks about our parents before we existed that we were yet a hope for their future.

But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the scripture you are referencing does not mean anything close to us pre-existing.

Even the scripture many bring out
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I chose you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you

That is speaking to God's sovereignty and foreknowledge. He is not trapped in the dimension of time. He tells us the end from the beginning and He has His plans and He plans out certain people to fulfill His plans. But that does not mean that the entire human race has their destinies written in stone and negate free will.
And we certainly are not all prophets to the nations.

Abortion is murder and we do not need to claim an indefensible and incorrect philosophy of pre-existence to defend life in the womb.
There are plenty of valid positions to convince but ultimately, unless a person is seeking the truth - and God will open their eyes to it - no argument is going to convince them. And arguments that are based on reading something into a scripture that is truly not there only hurt the cause.

RJ · Feb 7, 2010

I see no reason for abortion except possibly in cases where the mother's life is in imminent danger!

I also am at a loss, where a person can claim to be a Christian and openly say that abortion should be a matter of choice, the two are in direct conflict with one another!

Giggles4God · Feb 7, 2010

When has abortion been done when the mother's life is in danger?

I have never heard of abortion saving a life. It takes one.

RJ · Feb 8, 2010

Giggles4God said:
When has abortion been done when the mother's life is in danger?

I have never heard of abortion saving a life. It takes one.

Giggles,
I don't support abortion.
All I was saying if the mother's life is at stake.
I am sure that there have, on occassionions, in a hospital, not an abortion clinic, a circumstance,that a mother has had severve problems with her pregnantcy. In these rare circumstances a decision has to be made to abort the fetus to save the mom, that if she tries to go full-term she would have a serious risk to her life.

If there is never such situation, then no question, no reason for ever having an abortion.

Darian · Feb 9, 2010

Levi

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Emily, this is an abortion thread, but still, get to the ultra fine point and kindly explain to me how Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec three generations before he was born. Uproot the bush and get to the point.

PaladinGirl · Feb 10, 2010

I know that I previously posted condoning abortion but I have since had a conversion of the heart. I am back to being Catholic and I must now condemn abortion. Abortion is murder and the Church has taught this from the very beginning.

xv2000 · Mar 7, 2010

Sorry to bump the topic, but I just have to give a scenario.

What if you/your wife get(s) raped, you/she conceive(s), and giving birth will kill you/her? You/She have/has done nothing wrong, but neither has the baby. I can't imagine anyone having to tell their wife that they'd rather her die ):

I want to say that id rather her live, and we can repent, but I know we shouldn't continue sinning that grace may abound.

In this kind of situation, what would be the verdict?

shipwrecksoul · Mar 9, 2010

I heard a story the other day about this young couple in which the girl got pregnant. The guy knew he was not the father and the girl knew he was not the father. What should he do? Should they have aborted the baby? Should he have scorned her? Should he have become angry, most would think he had just cause to leave her? But he did loved her. What should he do?

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