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Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

Curtis said:
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
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Read it in context. Why do you ignore so many passages of Scripture
 
Dave M said:
you are the one that can not see we have a spirit, based on many many scriptures, hopefully one day you will see.
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Of course we have a spirit, breath. It is the breath of life. I never said we don't have one. I said we are not a spirit. No one has presented anything that says man "is" a spirit. All of the passages posted talk about man having a spirit. The claim is that man is a spirit that lives on after the body dies. If that was the case then man would be a spirit. However, no one has made that case. What's been done is people say man is a spirit and then they post passages that say man has a spirit. That doesn't work. Again, the word spirit is a figurative usage of the words ruach, Neshamah, noe, and pneuma, all of these words mean wind. As I've said, these words mean wind, not a disembodied living being. The English word carries that idea, not the Greek and Hebrew words.

With all I've said on this hasn't it even piqued your interest to see if any of it is true?
 
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Butch5 said:
Hi Brother Paul,

You're welcome, and thanks to you too for the conversation. I understand what you're saying, but I have to disagree. I don't mean any offense, it just seems to me to that people try to describe the indescribable. A logical contradiction is indescribable and that's what it seems to be to me. I agree that there are three mentioned in the Scriptures, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In that sense I agree that there is a trinity mentioned. However, I disagree that there are three persons. Paul tells us there is one God, the Father. That's what I believe. Jesus said that the Father was the only true God. Paul speaks of one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Paul notes two beings, That's what I believe. I believe Gen 19 is speaking of two beings one earth and one in Heaven. As I mentioned in the other post, I believe the Holy Spirit is a limited manifestation of the Father. How was the Father in Jesus? Through the Holy Spirit. Tertullian, an early Christian leader who is credited with coining the term "Trinity" as it is applied to the Christian faith also argued that there are two beings. I've heard a lot of people trying to explain the three in one God and I've not heard anyone that really gave a satisfactory answer. I believe the reason is because that's not what the Scriptures teach. The Bible doesn't speak of one God in three persons. It does speak of one God in one person, To us there is one God, the Father.
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Okay! Peace be unto you my brother...
 
Butch5 said:
he claim is that man is a spirit that lives on after the body dies. If that was the case then man would be a spirit
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actually Paul make the case just fine

2 Timothy chapter 4 verse 18------The Lord will receive me safely into his heavenly kingdom

earlier in this chapter paul is telling us he is getting ready to die, and is ready as he has fought the good fight

so we can see our spirit goes to be with the Lord at our death in heaven from just these few words. May the truth be revealed to you.
 
All one needs to see is that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and then go to Revelations 7
 
Brother Paul said:
All one needs to see is that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and then go to Revelations 7
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Hi Brother Paul,

That's not actually what it says. The word "is" isn't in the passage. Paul is stating a desire.

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 NKJ)
 
Dave M said:
actually Paul make the case just fine

2 Timothy chapter 4 verse 18------The Lord will receive me safely into his heavenly kingdom

earlier in this chapter paul is telling us he is getting ready to die, and is ready as he has fought the good fight

so we can see our spirit goes to be with the Lord at our death in heaven from just these few words. May the truth be revealed to you.
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But Dave, He doesn't say that anywhere. He said the Lord will receive me into His heavenly kingdom. Heavenly is an adjective. It describes the kingdom it doesn't give it's location. He didn't say the Kingdom in Heaven. If someone said to you, "this ice cream is heavenly" would you assume it was in Heaven? Or, would assume that it tasted really, really good? It's just giving a heavenly quality to the ice cream. Mathew uses the term, Kingdom of Heaven, which is literally translated, Kingdom of the heavens. It means belonging to the heavens.

Also, Paul said, "God will receive me". He didn't say God will receive my spirit. When Paul said, "me", he was a living breathing flesh body. Also, you're assuming that Paul would immediately go there upon death. He doesn't say that. He just says God will receive me. If, as I said, the dead are dead, then for them it would seem immediate because they wouldn't be aware of any time passage while they were dead. In other words, all they would know is they were alive, died, and were resurrected. It would appear one moment they're dying the next they're in the Resurrection.

This passage doesn't really say anyone goes to Heaven. I think you believe that because of the presuppositions you bring to the text. There was a time when I would have made the same argument.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Brother Paul,

That's not actually what it says. The word "is" isn't in the passage. Paul is stating a desire.

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 NKJ)
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True but he knows what he is talking about....

So what is your take? Soul Sleep?
 
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).
 
Butch5 said:
But Dave, He doesn't say that anywhere. He said the Lord will receive me into His heavenly kingdom. Heavenly is an adjective. It describes the kingdom it doesn't give it's location. He didn't say the Kingdom in Heaven. If someone said to you, "this ice cream is heavenly" would you assume it was in Heaven? Or, would assume that it tasted really, really good? It's just giving a heavenly quality to the ice cream. Mathew uses the term, Kingdom of Heaven, which is literally translated, Kingdom of the heavens. It means belonging to the heavens.

Also, Paul said, "God will receive me". He didn't say God will receive my spirit. When Paul said, "me", he was a living breathing flesh body. Also, you're assuming that Paul would immediately go there upon death. He doesn't say that. He just says God will receive me. If, as I said, the dead are dead, then for them it would seem immediate because they wouldn't be aware of any time passage while they were dead. In other words, all they would know is they were alive, died, and were resurrected. It would appear one moment they're dying the next they're in the Resurrection.

This passage doesn't really say anyone goes to Heaven. I think you believe that because of the presuppositions you bring to the text. There was a time when I would have made the same argument.
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I will pray for you
 
Butch5 said:
I don't see anything about the mount of Transfiguration in Revelation 7
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It was two different references....on the Mount the spirit of Moses and Elijah appear speaking with Jesus...in Revelations we read about the great uncountable number of souls awaiting His return and their final redemption being with Him in the throneroom.....as well as others
 
Brother Paul said:
It was two different references....on the Mount the spirit of Moses and Elijah appear speaking with Jesus...in Revelations we read about the great uncountable number of souls awaiting His return and their final redemption being with Him in the throneroom.....as well as others
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Jesus said the transfiguration was a vision. In Mathew. Also Peter says it was a preview of the Second Coming.

Im sure where you're going with the Rev 7 passage. Are you suggesting they are dead?
 
Enxu said:
I think it is a reference to the Gospel accounts of the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah.
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That's not in Revelation 7 thought. Jesus said the transfiguration was a vision in Mathew.
 
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