Christians and the Tribulation

[KingJ]

To understand the end times and the tribulation, one has to understand what God is trying to achieve. He wants as many souls in heaven as possible. The events of the end times are four stages of filtering people. Separating the wicked from the righteous.

STEP 1 - Remove the Holy Spirit 2 Thess 2:7 and all true Christians Rev 3:10, 1 Thess 5:2 = +- 1 billion people 20 years old and over receive a crown and all of the roughly 3 billion children raptured to wait for the millennium.

STEP 2 - People on earth in full distress and panic Matt 24:21. Have the antichrist torment and martyr all good people for the first half of the tribulation Rev 2:10. They will receive a crown in heaven = +- 150 million people get a crown.

STEP 3 - Rain down plagues on the earth Rev 8, Rev 16 in the second half of the tribulation in a last ditch attempt to get some remnant of the wicked to repent = +-10 thousand people get a crown.

STEP 4 - Bring back all children and mentally handicapped to earth. They live on earth for a thousand years. Toward the end of this, the devil is released to tempt mankind for the last time Rev 20:3.

 

[KingJ]

Salvation is freely available till the Holy Ghost leaves - mid trib. After that it will be by being a martyr as a trib saint. Any one that does not take the Mark will be topped.

Rev 13 ; [15] And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

You need to step back and try understand that this makes no sense.

1. How will the antichrist have his way if the Holy Spirit is here?

2. The first half and the second half are the great tribulation period. All seven years are going to be the greatest distress mankind has ever known and will ever know Matt 24:21. As such, it should be painfully obvious to expect the antichrist to be rounding up and killing good people who refuse to serve him from day 1 of the tribulation.

 

[B-A-C]

Typically the "great" tribulation refers to the last 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13:4; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"
Rev 13:5; There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
Rev 13:6; And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
Rev 13:8; All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Before this is the "regular" tribulation.

Rev 11:2; "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

Rev 12:6; Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:14; But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Depending on who the "woman" here is, Israel will have a place to flee and be protected during this time.

Dan 7:25; 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 12:7; I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Dan 12:1; "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

It would seem here in 12:1; that everyone will be rescued at the same time, the same way. "God's people" everyone who's name is in the Book of Life.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
================================================================
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

When discussing the rapture, if one would allow the Holy Spirit to get a word in edgewise, you would learn that the rapture and the second coming are not two names for the same event but two separate events. The second coming is when Jesus comes back to Earth. His feet hit the ground. At the rapture Jesus catches up off the Earth and meets us in the air...From there, all that are caught up go with Him to heaven.....TWO SEPARATE EVENTS

Instead we insist on looking at the Word intellectually, ignoring the Holy Spirit, and sounding like a bunch of clanging bells. Chaos

 

[KingJ]

Typically the "great" tribulation refers to the last 3 1/2 years.

Always appreciate your contributions. Lots of scripture to consider.

Rev 13:4; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"
Rev 13:5; There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
Rev 13:6; And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
Rev 13:8; All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Before this is the "regular" tribulation.

Rev 11:2; "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

Rev 12:6; Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:14; But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Depending on who the "woman" here is, Israel will have a place to flee and be protected during this time.

I just don't agree BAC. Note that in the 'regular' tribulation God has to pro-actively protect the 'woman'. This would surely not be necessary in a 'regular' tribulation.

Dan 7:25; 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 12:7; I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Notice how Jesus does not say there will be a great half tribulation. He says ''the great tribulation'', IE all seven years, will be great distress ''such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will''.

Dan 12:1; "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

This scripture speaks to the pre-trib rapture. ''everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued''

Now all who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture just need to understand that if we endure distress in a 'great tribulation', it is hardly a 'rescue'.

Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

It would seem here in 12:1; that everyone will be rescued at the same time, the same way. "God's people" everyone who's name is in the Book of Life.

Disagree. It says those whose names are written are rescued. Christians ready for the rapture, virgins with oil in their lamps, they are rescued.

All other endure the great tribulation and are not rescued. They will be tormented and martyred Rev 2:10.

This is really not hard BAC, how is it that you are so grossly misreading the scriptures you are quoting?

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
================================================================
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

The dead rising is a topic all on its own.

 

[KingJ]

There is scripture - here it is - already quoted.

Daniel 7:25 " He will speak against the Most High (God restrains the Holy Ghost and allows Satan to do do his thing) and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time." (Delivered into Satan's hands for three and a half years)

You are thinking that Christians will escape the whole trib?

That is a pre-trib position.
Mid- trib is the right position.

The holy Ghost will leave with the rapture ready Christian so the the Wrath of God can begin - final half pf the trib.

1. Understand, that as I have said to Hekuran in post # 163 above, 'His' holy people in the tribulation are Jews.

2. Note how verse 25 says the antichrist has full power to wear out His saints. This is not going to be a pleasant 3.5 years. It will be a time of great distress.

3. The holy people outside of the Jews will be those who reject the mark of the beast as explained in Rev 2:10 and Rev 20:4.

4. There is absolutely no scripture that says God will restrain the Holy Spirit. That is your inserted assumption. 2 Thess 2:7 is clear that as long as He is here, He will continue to hold the devil back. The Holy Spirit will need to leave.

2 Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

 

[KingJ]

We have an apostasy -

Which just means a falling away of the Church from its once prominent doctrines -

Nothing to do with the Mark and all that.

Scripture talks of a great falling away. Not 'some' Christians losing faith and becoming atheists.

 

[KingJ]

Nope - no one knows exactly when the trib begins - its impossible. - if we did we could work out when Jesuswill return and no one knows that.

Its not and no we could not work out the rapture date.

The tribulation is the last seven years of the sixth day. Scripture is crystal clear on that. The unknown date is the rapture. That can be any date from now to the start of the tribulation.

Remember also that Jesus says nobody knows the 'day and the hour'. He does not say ''century, decade, year or month'.

It is not God's will to 'surprise' us. It is simply an inevitability as He will make the decision at a point in time that He see fit to. It is a complex discussion actually, as it has to do with our free will. We could probably speed up the rapture date if we were all very pro-active ministers preaching the gospel.

 

[B-A-C]

Scripture talks of a great falling away. Not 'some' Christians losing faith and becoming atheists.

That's a very interesting statement. In your opinion, what is the difference? I suppose everyone doesn't become an atheist. Some become Buddhists, Hindus, or Muslims.
Or as in Solomon's case, they follow Ashtoreth and Milcom.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Matt 24:9; "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Matt 24:11; "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt 24:12; "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Matt 24:13; "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

a·pos·ta·sy
[əˈpästəsē]
noun

1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief:
   "the execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism"

Jdg 2:13; So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
2Kin 21:22; So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
Jer 22:9; "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.

 

[KingJ]

That's a very interesting statement. In your opinion, what is the difference?
I suppose everyone doesn't become an atheist. Some become Buddhists, Hindus, or Muslims.
Or as in Solomon's case, they follow Ashtoreth and Milcom.

I come to my opinion from meditating on two passages:

1. 2 Thess 2:1-7

2 Thess 2:1-7 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1. Matt 24:9-10

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Opinion:

The 'falling away' is an end time event. The end times encompass both the tribulation and a period of suffering before it. IE I believe there is a large falling away pretribulation and a great falling away in the tribulation. Matt 24:1-14 refers to pretribulation. Those who believe a pretrib rapture will occur must not think they will escape persecution. We only escape persecution from the antichrist.

Pretribulation = persecution from wicked people
Tribulation = persecution from the antichrist

During the tribulation its a matter of common sense. If the antichrist gives good people on earth ( those who missed the rapture but still want to repent and hold to and or convert to Christianity) a choice of death or life if they take his mark, I expect a vast majority to give up on Christianity. Much more then pretrib.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Matt 24:9; "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Matt 24:11; "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt 24:12; "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Matt 24:13; "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

All pretrib. The tribulation starts in Matt 24:15.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Separate matter for discussion. We have discussed these passages in our OSAS threads.

2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

a·pos·ta·sy
[əˈpästəsē]
noun

1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief:
   "the execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism"

Jdg 2:13; So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
2Kin 21:22; So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
Jer 22:9; "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.

These passages speak to a falling away that encompasses a pretrib and trib period.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

Scripture talks of a great falling away. Not 'some' Christians losing faith and becoming atheists.

just losing faith in vital doctrines - is a great falling away.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


The falling away has a beginning - which is even now - and continues during the Trib. It is one of the End time signs long before the actual Trib.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

The tribulation is the last seven years of the sixth day. Scripture is crystal clear on that. The unknown date is the rapture. That can be any date from now to the start of the tribulation.

Yep - it is the last seven years - but the scripture is very clear that the Tribulation is SPLIT in two equal halves. The first is for the devil to do his thing - and then the Wrath of God.

The Rapture is before the Wrath of God.

 

[B-A-C]

The 'falling away' is an end time event. The end times encompass both the tribulation and a period of suffering before it. IE I believe there is a large falling away pretribulation and a great falling away in the tribulation. Matt 24:1-14 refers to pretribulation. Those who believe a pretrib rapture will occur must not think they will escape persecution. We only escape persecution from the antichrist.

Question: If the great falling away doesn't take place until after the pre-trib rapture. Why weren't those people taken up in the rapture, if they hadn't fallen away yet?

 

[KingJ]

Question: If the great falling away doesn't take place until after the pre-trib rapture. Why weren't those people taken up in the rapture, if they hadn't fallen away yet?

The great falling away happens before and after the rapture.

As I have explained many times on our OSAS threads, not all Christians are Christians. There is a falling away of people who serve God. Not all who serve God are Christians Matt 7:21-23. All true Christians will be raptured.

 

[KingJ]

The Rapture is before the Wrath of God.

You say that, but scripture does not. Nor does logic. We are going in circles now, you are not dealing with the scriptures I have given you.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ will rise at this time. So then.. there are either two raptures ( before and after ) or else no one gets raptured until this time.

Rapture means 'to be caught up' At the end of the tribulation Christians will be gathered together to Jesus, not caught up into the air. Read what the bible says, don't read what you believe, believe what you read. It would make no sense for Jesus to catch people up into the air when He is on the Earth. You're combining two separate events into one

 

[Curtis]

Falling away is not a one-time event. The scriptures tell us that Satan "sinned" in the beginning, but scripture also tells us Satan has been "sinning" from the beginning. Falling away is a state of constantly falling away.

 

[B-A-C]

Falling away is not a one-time event

While I agree with this, it does seem it will be more common/prevalent... in the "last days".

 

[B-A-C]

As I have explained many times on our OSAS threads, not all Christians are Christians. There is a falling away of people who serve God. Not all who serve God are Christians Matt 7:21-23. All true Christians will be raptured.

A non-Christian has nothing to "fall away" from. They were never on the mountain. They can't fall.
I can't fall away from New York, if I've never been to New York. I can only fall away from a place I'm at.
I can't fall away from the faith, if I never had the faith. An atheist can never fall away from the faith.

There is no difference between a fake Christian and an unsaved person. Neither one can fall away.
A fake Christian is still an un-saved Christian. There is no difference.

 

[Charlie24]

Falling away is not a one-time event. The scriptures tell us that Satan "sinned" in the beginning, but scripture also tells us Satan has been "sinning" from the beginning. Falling away is a state of constantly falling away.

According to the Greek scholar Kenneth Wuest, "apostasia" means departure as well as apostasy.

He points out that "falling away" is an interpretation, not a translation. It was originally translated "departure."

He further points out in Scripture verses that departure in 2 Thes. 2:3 is not referring to a "departure of the faith" as in apostasy, but rather a "departure" as in being snatched away during the rapture.

I don't remember the verses he used, but I'm sure I can find them.