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Christians and the Tribulation

No Christian who is rapture ready will go through the Great Tribulation which has been traditionally linked to the last three and a half years.

Jesus explains in Matt 24:21 that the full tribulation period is great distress. IE All seven years are terrifying, not only 3.5.

Yet they will suffer along with unbeliever equal tough times through the initial three and a half year period of the seven year Tribulation period.

This is not true. No scripture supports that. Please also see my post above to BAC.

Matt 24:1-14 speaks to Christian suffering before the tribulation. We must not confuse that with suffering in the tribulation.

The signs of the end times will inaugurate the beginning of the seven years tribulation. Which will come upon us with out an obvious beginning point.

Rev 5 : 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The tribulation has a clear start date. It is the end of the sixth day Daniel 9:24–27. Year 5993.
 
2. Salvation before the tribulation is by faith in Jesus John 3:16, in the tribulation it is by torment, martyrdom and rejecting the mark of the beast Rev 2:10, Rev 20"4 amd Rev 9:4.
3. In Matt 24:21 Jesus explains how the great tribulation period (all seven years) is the greatest distress in human history. This means that from day 1 the antichrist will be 'distressing' good people and forcing the mark of the beast. There is no 'quiet' 3.5 years where people wonder who the antichrist is.

I think the "wrath" upon people comes from two different sources. All of the plagues, the seven trumpets, the seven seals, the seven bowls, all come from God. I believe these plagues will primarily be on/for the the un-saved. This is the wrath of God.

But there is another part for Christians to worry about, the beheading for your faith, and not being able to buy or sell, those things will be the wrath of Satan/the Beast, they will be targeting believers. This is NOT the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7; Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
Rev 16:1; Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
Rev 16:19; The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

the other half of this...

Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I think God will reward those who held onto their faith through it. But that doesn't mean He caused the affliction.

Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 2:17; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:12; 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Rev 3:21; 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 21:7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
 
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Sir, when you study ANY subject in the bible you will find references to it ALL THROUGH the bible....Read Daniel 9 .... God is talking about the tribulation here....It links with 2 Thes 2:3-4......Thats why I always say that one MUST study the Word under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit ... He will open it up to you....To study the Word intellectually is a total waste of time.

I don't find any reference to the building of a third temple anywhere. No matter the state of my intellect or my openness to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's just not there.

It's a hypothetical solution created as a clumsy solution to bad Bible interpretation. It has no basis in the text of the Bible.

And if Jesus were really talking about a third temple in Matthew 24, don't you think it would have been reasonable of him to make that clear to the disciples at the time? They were asking about the destruction of the second temple.
 
I don't find any reference to the building of a third temple anywhere. No matter the state of my intellect or my openness to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's just not there.

It's a hypothetical solution created as a clumsy solution to bad Bible interpretation. It has no basis in the text of the Bible.

And if Jesus were really talking about a third temple in Matthew 24, don't you think it would have been reasonable of him to make that clear to the disciples at the time? They were asking about the destruction of the second temple.
One MUST study the Word under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit ... He will open it up to you....To study the Word intellectually is a total waste of time.
 
I think the "wrath" upon people comes from two different sources. All of the plagues, the seven trumpets, the seven seals, the seven bowls, all come from God. I believe these plagues will primarily be on/for the the un-saved. This is the wrath of God.

But there is another part for Christians to worry about, the beheading for your faith, and not being able to buy or sell, those things will be the wrath of Satan/the Beast, they will be targeting believers. This is NOT the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7; Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
Rev 16:1; Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
Rev 16:19; The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

the other half of this...

Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I think God will reward those who held onto their faith through it. But that doesn't mean He caused the affliction.

Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 2:17; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:12; 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Rev 3:21; 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 21:7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
I often hear about the common practice of cutting off heads of christians during the great tribulation. Where in scripture does this come from? I know Islam would do this in a heartbeat, but I dont see Islam as being the enforcer for the beast and his minions.
 
One MUST study the Word under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit ... He will open it up to you....To study the Word intellectually is a total waste of time.
Studying the word using the intellect is certainly not a waste of time. Of course, we should always, always be attentive to the guidance of the Spirit.

I see no advantage at all in studying Scripture brainlessly.

Sounds like a cop out because you know there is absolutely no Biblical grounding for the belief that a third temple is part of God's end time plan.
 
Studying the word using the intellect is certainly not a waste of time. Of course, we should always, always be attentive to the guidance of the Spirit.

I see no advantage at all in studying Scripture brainlessly.

Sounds like a cop out because you know there is absolutely no Biblical grounding for the belief that a third temple is part of God's end time plan.
There you go....I did not say that the third temple is part of Gods plan....I said they're building it, or are about to....and I said that the man of sin will take advantage of that. You really need to learn to listen
 
I often hear about the common practice of cutting off heads of christians during the great tribulation. Where in scripture does this come from?

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 
This is not true. No scripture supports that. Please also see my post above to BAC.

Matt 24:1-14 speaks to Christian suffering before the tribulation. We must not confuse that with suffering in the tribulation.
Agreed -

There is suffering as the events of the end unfold which will be preceded by the signs of the end, as indicated in Jesus,s teaching about the end times. This is a fore taste as it were or the beginning of the type of suffering that was to come. Matt. 24:1-18, 29-31; Mark 13:1-23, 24-27; Luke 21:5-24, 25. 28.

However the intensity is greater when the seven year trib starts - but no human will know when it actually begins. Just like when a frog is boiled in water doesn't know till he is boiled.


The intense rapture ready Christian suffering is during the Tribulation period. We know this because God has given Satan license of three and a half years to oppress without measure.

This is the first half.

Daniel 7:25 " He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

The holy people will be delivered
into his hands for a time, times and half a time."
 
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The tribulation has a clear start date. It is the end of the sixth day Daniel 9:24–27. Year 5993.
It might have a clear start date - but no human will know the exact date. Because of the actual historical placement discrepancies found in any human calculations in applying when is the year 5993.

What we do know is that: (there are scriptures for the following)

1. Israel needs to be in the Land of Israel - and they are.
2. Israel needs to be in possession of the "old" city of Jerusalem, which contains the Temple Mount - and they are.
3. Bulk of nations will turn against Israel - and they are
4. The great apostasy of the church - and we have that.

Time is nearly up and it is easy to see how the Lord is setting the stage for the Great Tribulation.
 
There you go....I did not say that the third temple is part of Gods plan....I said they're building it, or are about to....and I said that the man of sin will take advantage of that. You really need to learn to listen
Ok I'm not sure what you believe then. In Matthew 24, did Jesus prophesy about the temple that stood before him and the disciples as they spoke, or a hypothetical third temple, not to be built for at least two thousand years?
 
Ok I'm not sure what you believe then. In Matthew 24, did Jesus prophesy about the temple that stood before him and the disciples as they spoke, or a hypothetical third temple, not to be built for at least two thousand years?
Ah Good. Jesus was speaking of the then present temple. The one which was laid to waste
 
Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
thanks!
 
Ah Good. Jesus was speaking of the then present temple. The one which was laid to waste
I agree. Which, I think, means that the tribulations he spoke of took place at the same time as the desolation and destruction of the temple around 70 and.

That great tribulation has already passed.

So I'm still asking, what is the biblical evidence for a unique future event called The Great Tribulation?
 
No doubt - Yet for rapture ready Christians only the first period of three and a half years is tough. Tribulation Saints will have to endure the lot.

There is no scripture that says that.

The antichrist can also not have his way if the Holy Spirit is here. The Holy Spirit needs to leave. He will not leave without us. He leaves per 2 Thess 2:7.

Then you need to also consider the following:

Salvation before the tribulation is by faith in Jesus John 3:16, in the tribulation it is by torment, martyrdom and rejecting the mark of the beast Rev 2:10, Rev 20:4 and Rev 9:4.

The evidence for Christians not being here in the 'great' tribulation and for a pretribulation rapture is rock solid. You cannot dispute it.
 
Agreed -

There is suffering as the events of the end unfold which will be preceded by the signs of the end, as indicated in Jesus,s teaching about the end times. This is a fore taste as it were or the beginning of the type of suffering that was to come. Matt. 24:1-18, 29-31; Mark 13:1-23, 24-27; Luke 21:5-24, 25. 28.

However the intensity is greater when the seven year trib starts -

Agreed

but no human will know when it actually begins. Just like when a frog is boiled in water doesn't know till he is boiled.

Disagree. Matt 24:15 will be a visible and identifiable event that the whole world will see and know of. This is the start of the tribulation. Note how verse 16-17 says when people see this, flee! Great distress is coming.

The intense rapture ready Christian suffering is during the Tribulation period. We know this because God has given Satan license of three and a half years to oppress without measure.

This is the first half.

Daniel 7:25 " He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

The holy people will be delivered
into his hands for a time, times and half a time."

You need to understand that Christians are 'His people' at this current moment in time. Before Christ and during the tribulation, 'His' holy people were and are 'Jews'. All non Jews in the tribulation are not 'His' people. They will only be 'His' people / tribulation saints if they endure torment, reject the mark of the beast and if necessary are martyrs Rev 2:10, Rev 20:4.

Jeremiah 30 makes crystal clear the fact that the Jews are His people in the tribulation. Jer 30:22 So you will be my people, and I will be your God.
 
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It might have a clear start date - but no human will know the exact date. Because of the actual historical placement discrepancies found in any human calculations in applying when is the year 5993.

Disagree as per my post # 140 above.

What we do know is that: (there are scriptures for the following)

1. Israel needs to be in the Land of Israel - and they are.

2. Israel needs to be in possession of the "old" city of Jerusalem, which contains the Temple Mount - and they are.

3. Bulk of nations will turn against Israel - and they are

Agreed

4. The great apostasy of the church - and we have that.

Not at the level scripture foretells. We have an apostasy, but not a great one.

You would need an antichrist to give all an ultimatum to have a great apostasy. When people realize they can't buy food without the mark of the beast, they will acknowledge that this ''Christian'' thing is not working out for them anymore.

Time is nearly up and it is easy to see how the Lord is setting the stage for the Great Tribulation.

True
 
You need to understand that Christians are 'His people' at this current moment in time. Before Christ and during the tribulation, 'His' holy people were and are 'Jews'. All non Jews in the tribulation are not 'His' people. They will only be 'His' people / tribulation saints if they endure torment, reject the mark of the beast and if necessary are martyrs Rev 2:10, Rev 20:4.

Jeremiah 30 makes crystal clear the fact that the Jews are His people in the tribulation. Jer 30:22 So you will be my people, and I will be your God.

@KingJ please rethink this. There is no biblical text that says God rejects Christians as his people at any time, certainly not during times of tribulation.

This line of thinking completely undermines the gospel of God's work of salvation in Christ Jesus.
 
There is no scripture that says that.

The antichrist can also not have his way if the Holy Spirit is here. The Holy Spirit needs to leave. He will not leave without us. He leaves per 2 Thess 2:7.
There is scripture - here it is - already quoted.

Daniel 7:25 " He will speak against the Most High (God restrains the Holy Ghost and allows Satan to do do his thing) and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time." (Delivered into Satan's hands for three and a half years)

You are thinking that Christians will escape the whole trib?

That is a pre-trib position.
Mid- trib is the right position.

The holy Ghost will leave with the rapture ready Christian so the the Wrath of God can begin - final half pf the trib.
 
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