Free will discussion 452,637

[Born Again 2004]

LOL!

LOL!

 

[Brother-Paul]

Freedom of choice!!!
NIV Genesis 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for 'when' you eat from it you will certainly die".
I would have thought that if Adam had freedom of choice the scripture would read 'If' you eat from it, rather than 'when' you eat from it, don't you think?

Hi Trevor

Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

May I share my thoughts brother?

To me I see the following...

1 - v16 - God Commanded [He didn't just say it, He gave an instruction and He Commanded it]

First He draws to the man's attention, having just created him and put him in the garden, that there are a lot of trees in the garden, of which they all bear fruit which can be eaten, or those that bear fruit can be eaten.

2 - v17 - Having made the first statement, He continues, to make absolutely clear, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil 'You shall not eat'

We can be sure God pointed to the actual tree, He made very clear which one Adam should not eat from.

So at this point God told Adam, he can eat from 'any' tree in the garden, 'except' the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I would therefore think from this that Adam had a free will choice, but we note it came with a double warning, which means he must have had a choice.

a - you must not eat from this one tree of the knowledge of good and evil

b - if you do eat from it, you will 'surely die'

We have a clear instruction and a warning attached.

The final point, I feel is so important here, it is that God is omniscience, He knows all, so we see here He says don't do this, if you do this will happen, for in the day you do eat from it you will surely die.

v17 for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

God gave an instruction, He gave it with a warning, He explained clearly the consequences, but is final statement confirms...
'for in the day you do eat from the tree I told you not to eat from, [meaning I know you will because I know everything from the Alpha to the Omega] you will surely die.

Shalom

 

[Br. Bear]

A person can not become a "son" of God until the "Son" of God lives in them. We are never called the Son of God but we are called the sons of God!

The only reason why ALL men are given the choice to choose between life or death is because God "choose" to reveal himself to man first! This was done because of God's "grace"

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:15

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Galatians 4:1-7

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi Trevor

Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

May I share my thoughts brother?

To me I see the following...

1 - v16 - God Commanded [He didn't just say it, He gave an instruction and He Commanded it]

First He draws to the man's attention, having just created him and put him in the garden, that there are a lot of trees in the garden, of which they all bear fruit which can be eaten, or those that bear fruit can be eaten.

2 - v17 - Having made the first statement, He continues, to make absolutely clear, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil 'You shall not eat'

We can be sure God pointed to the actual tree, He made very clear which one Adam should not eat from.

So at this point God told Adam, he can eat from 'any' tree in the garden, 'except' the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I would therefore think from this that Adam had a free will choice, but we note it came with a double warning, which means he must have had a choice.

a - you must not eat from this one tree of the knowledge of good and evil

b - if you do eat from it, you will 'surely die'

We have a clear instruction and a warning attached.

The final point, I feel is so important here, it is that God is omniscience, He knows all, so we see here He says don't do this, if you do this will happen, for in the day you do eat from it you will surely die.

v17 for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

God gave an instruction, He gave it with a warning, He explained clearly the consequences, but is final statement confirms...
'for in the day you do eat from the tree I told you not to eat from, [meaning I know you will because I know everything from the Alpha to the Omega] you will surely die.

Shalom

The UK Government HAS set the speed limit on single carriageways to 60 mph.
The penalty for exceeding that limit (also known as 'breaking the law' ) is "If you plead guilty
You’ll have to pay a £100 fine and have 3 points added to your licence, unless you’re given the option to attend a speed awareness course."
"If you plead not guilty" ...
"You’ll have to go to court if you plead not guilty.
You can be fined more and get more penalty points if the court decides you’re guilty of speeding.

The amount you’re fined depends on what the speed limit was and how much over it you were driving. It’s usually a percentage of your weekly income, up to a maximum of £1,000 (£2,500 if you were driving on a motorway).

You could also be disqualified from driving or have your licence suspended."
from: Speeding penalties

Do you think perhaps those who gave the law were not so naive as to think that simply setting down a law would result in everyone obeying it?
Hence the resulting penalty for all who (dare to/are stupid enough to) transgress - rebellious, either way.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brother-Paul]

The UK Government HAS set the speed limit on single carriageways to 60 mph.
The penalty for exceeding that limit (also known as 'breaking the law' ) is "If you plead guilty
You’ll have to pay a £100 fine and have 3 points added to your licence, unless you’re given the option to attend a speed awareness course."
"If you plead not guilty" ...
"You’ll have to go to court if you plead not guilty.
You can be fined more and get more penalty points if the court decides you’re guilty of speeding.

The amount you’re fined depends on what the speed limit was and how much over it you were driving. It’s usually a percentage of your weekly income, up to a maximum of £1,000 (£2,500 if you were driving on a motorway).

You could also be disqualified from driving or have your licence suspended."
from: Speeding penalties

Do you think perhaps those who gave the law were not so naive as to think that simply setting down a law would result in everyone obeying it?
Hence the resulting penalty for all who (dare to/are stupid enough to) transgress - rebellious, either way.


Bless you ....><>

You are very familiar with the laws on speeding brother,

And the options if you are caught speeding.

There are laws, and there are penalty for breaking the laws, what does that tell us? People will break the law, they have free will to drive at what ever speed they want to, what ever speed they feel must drive at or are tempted to. They never think of the consequences until they receive a summons to pay a fine or attend court. So it is with sin in this world, people don't think of the penalties until they stand trial.

Bless you

 

[Curtis]

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus knocks on the hearts of ALL men, not just a few. The Lord God knows who those people will be, but we don't until we hear his voice and open that door.

 

[Born Again 2004]

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus knocks on the hearts of ALL men, not just a few. The Lord God knows who those people will be, but we don't until we hear his voice and open that door.

I am 72; I look back and can see where He had "knocked" on my heart many times but until I took his offering and invited him in , was I saved. It was my choice that God for-saw before the foundation; that is why He only He is Omnipotent!

 

[Curtis]

It was my choice that God for-saw before the foundation;

Being able to "foresee" every human being's choice that they will make makes it possible for the Lord God to write into the "Lambs Book of life" their names before the world ever began.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Born Again 2004]

Being able to "foresee" every human being's choice that they will make makes it possible for the Lord God to write into the "Lambs Book of life" their names before the world ever began.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hallelujah Brother!!!

 

[PloughBoy]

I am 72; I look back and can see where He had "knocked" on my heart many times but until I took his offering and invited him in , was I saved. It was my choice that God for-saw before the foundation; that is why He only He is Omnipotent!

May I make a more "profound" statement than "God saw", the word "saw" is like a inquiry, like does not know, but he has to "look into something" to get some information before He can come to a conclusion of what He is going to do.

I like, "God fore-knew" because He designed it's out Come of what it was going to be. He built the " assembly line and The Program that runs that assembly line with the "if than else" signs in place with the end products The"Sons of God"!
I like "fore-knew" better. That has more "Grace in it" a glorious grace"! By having nothing to do with it whatsoever, because he handed it out before I was created or before He HAD to Take A Look to see something. It is not by chance, I am who I am. I like that, I am, I am, I am, I am, I am what you want me to be, "I AM"! And I am going to be just like Jesus, "I Am"!

PS and you did say: "I am" 72

 

[Born Again 2004]

May I make a more "profound" statement than "God saw", the word "saw" is like a inquiry, like does not know, but he has to "look into something" to get some information before He can come to a conclusion of what He is going to do.

I like, "God fore-knew" because He designed it's out Come of what it was going to be. He built the " assembly line and The Program that runs that assembly line with the "if than else" signs in place with the end products The"Sons of God"!
I like "fore-knew" better. That has more "Grace in it" a glorious grace"! By having nothing to do with it whatsoever, because he handed it out before I was created or before He HAD to Take A Look to see something. It is not by chance, I am who I am. I like that, I am, I am, I am, I am, I am what you want me to be, "I AM"! And I am going to be just like Jesus, "I Am"!

PS and you did say: "I am" 72

Look at Curtis's reply in #128, he nailed it! You, tell us nothing but jibberish?! I am, I am, I am you say...not sure what / who you are...
Is Jesus in there?

 

[Sue D.]

@PloughBoy --how about just accepting what people are saying.

 

[Born Again 2004]

@PloughBoy --how about just accepting what people are saying.

What people? And what are they saying?

 

[Sue D.]

@Born Again 2004 -- people here in Forum -- instead of editorializing posts -- listen to what's being said -- instead of how PloughBoy likes to handle it. His and my personalities do not jib very well. Sometimes it's better for me to go to another thread of conversation.

 

[Born Again 2004]

@Born Again 2004 -- people here in Forum -- instead of editorializing posts -- listen to what's being said -- instead of how PloughBoy likes to handle it. His and my personalities do not jib very well. Sometimes it's better for me to go to another thread of conversation.

Sorry, my mistake...I thought that was @PloughBoy asking me ...not you asking him.. He is not going to listen, he's too busy with his agenda!

 

[PloughBoy]

@PloughBoy --how about just accepting what people are saying.

How about this?

(ASV).Romans 3)
God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

It is God's Sovereign Choice who is to be saved

(Romans 9).
6But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. 9For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

"Now how come is it so hard for some Christians to understand what is written plainly, and take it upon their own initiative to feel like they have to interpret what is written so clearly that a 5th grader can understand. It is no more than a sense , wanting to take some credit from the person who deserve All Credit for every ounce of their salvation,

For how can a "slave" take any kind credit for anything when that slave do not even own himself let alone can make a decision about his own life! And no say so, a slave that was sold out to sin in total bondage! Your mind was in "bondage" your thoughts was in "captivity", your whole being had been cast into Darkness! You were lost with no hope in this world! You were dead n trespasses and sin! He had to raise you from the dead before you could hear him call your name!

The Power of The Holy Ghost Had to "Regenerate" you, so that you could Hear and see. Go right on ahead, stick your chest out , proclaim to us the mighty works you did on how you open the door, and reach out and grab His Hand, He called and you answered, Proclaim to us on how this was done. Was it similar to the 5 Points of Calvinism or was it according to "Yourism"! speak up thou that "Sleepest". Are you woke now! And can you feel the Love of the "Holy Ghost" and The Word of God! Thundering through your mind. Are you thinking now, wondering, pondering, or are you "flowing in "Anger"? And concerning "Salvation" and The Sovereignty of GOD"

"And "I am" like a tree planted by the rivers of waters" And I will not be move" by your every wind of doctrine"! So the more wind you blow the Stronger The tree and the deeper the roots!


I wonder how much trouble I am in now

 

[PloughBoy]

Sorry, my mistake...I thought that was @PloughBoy asking me ...not you asking him.. He is not going to listen, he's too busy with his agenda!

Y'all remind me of Gideon, be careful, you might make a mistake and strike one another. It is amazing, most here are thinking I am the enemy! And they are focusing on me They have no idea what is going on! But they read everyday!

 

[Born Again 2004]

How about this?

(ASV).Romans 3)
God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

It is God's Sovereign Choice who is to be saved

(Romans 9).
6But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. 9For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

"Now how come is it so hard for some Christians to understand what is written plainly, and take it upon their own initiative to feel like they have to interpret what is written so clearly that a 5th grader can understand. It is no more than a sense , wanting to take some credit from the person who deserve All Credit for every ounce of their salvation,

For how can a "slave" take any kind credit for anything when that slave do not even own himself let alone can make a decision about his own life! And no say so, a slave that was sold out to sin in total bondage! Your mind was in "bondage" your thoughts was in "captivity", your whole being had been cast into Darkness! You were lost with no hope in this world! You were dead n trespasses and sin! He had to raise you from the dead before you could hear him call your name!

The Power of The Holy Ghost Had to "Regenerate" you, so that you could Hear and see. Go right on ahead, stick your chest out , proclaim to us the mighty works you did on how you open the door, and reach out and grab His Hand, He called and you answered, Proclaim to us on how this was done. Was it similar to the 5 Points of Calvinism or was it according to "Yourism"! speak up thou that "Sleepest". Are you woke now! And can you feel the Love of the "Holy Ghost" and The Word of God! Thundering through your mind. Are you thinking now, wondering, pondering, or are you "flowing in "Anger"? And concerning "Salvation" and The Sovereignty of GOD"

"And "I am" like a tree planted by the rivers of waters" And I will not be move" by your every wind of doctrine"! So the more wind you blow the Stronger The tree and the deeper the roots!


I wonder how much trouble I am in now

You just babble on , quoting scripture as if you were an authority and you appear to be
, not an enemy , but one who appears to be completely lost.

 

[KittyLinda]

Total Depravity is not mentioned in the bible. God called all. We can accept or reject freely. We have FREE WILL. Nobody is totally depraved, not even unbelievers.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL , let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

It is so clear!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Total Depravity is not mentioned in the bible. God called all. We can accept or reject freely. We have FREE WILL. Nobody is totally depraved, not even unbelievers.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL , let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

It is so clear!

God is not some Omnipotent Puppet Master, His absolute perfection doesn't allow for that. Free will is fundamental to His plan! Thank you for Revelation 22:17, but even with out it, one in Christ just knows!