Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[EmethAlethia]

Greyfeather,

There is another possibility. There is the possibility that the Spiritual gifts were given to an infant church that had nothing else but 12 apostles and Paul, and that as it grew in maturity those gifts all faded out, passed away, ceased, ... What we see is that people becoming Christians were assigned gifts by the Holy Spirit just as He determined, and no desire to "change" or alter those gifts, regardless of how much some wanted more showy, or "greater" gifts, (1 Cor. 12). Interestingly, these first Christians never had to attend a bible school or college to gain "knowledge" or "Study" to figure out what to preach. The first Christians didn't have to go to school to learn how to preach, ... it was just like tongues, and interpretation of tongues. There are no classes you can take, no school you can go to, … you got whatever the Spirit assigned you at the moment of salvation, and that was that.

There is more data, we only see the spiritual gifts mentioned in the oldest books and letters, and the frequency with which they are mentioned decreases as the time period discussed, or the time period of the letters increases. By the later letters, Paul gives thanks to God for having mercy on fellow missionaries that he has worked with for most of his Christian life. Stating that God had mercy and delivered him from the point of death. Yet, in the earliest records, in acts, even the shadows of the apostles touching someone, or the touching of cloths delivered from other locations, resulted in full healing. Add to that that we do not have records of modern day healing of those that have been blind from birth, raising people from the dead who fall asleep in the balcony during sermons and come crashing down to the first floor.

Just like everything else, there is a time when we are nursed, when we cannot handle solid food, when we are immature, … What our lives are like in our earliest infancy changes greatly once we start walking, talking, … From what I see, the same thing happened with the church. Conversion experiences are no longer accompanied by tongues of fire descending on us, just as they were on the apostles.

That said, if speaking in tongues, prophesy, … is done, and it is from God, it is exactly as reliable and trustworthy as scripture, and will never contradict scripture. In the O.T. a person who claimed to be a prophet was stoned to death for being off, even in the smallest detail, in a prophesy. That said, if anyone speaks in tongues, interprets tongues, prophesies, … ANYTHING that does not occur EXACTLY as they say, one thing is for sure, that is not from God. If they are EVER off, even in the slightest detail, do not listen to them any longer.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Keep in mind that, many people have many different beliefs in this area. That said, all you are going to get here is mine, and it does not guarantee that my beliefs or study have gotten me to the truth yet. That said, my view is as follows:

1. 1st Corinthians is the letter written first, in time, in the N.T. it includes almost 3 chapters on Spiritual gifts. In the next oldest letter, there is a paragraph, the next oldest a sentence or two. By the time you get to 2nd Corinthians, in spite of all the problems, controversy, misuse, … you do not even have one mention of them. You never again hear about them in any letters after this point.
2. The word “perfect” in the passage above is neuter. The possibilities are:
   1. When Jesus comes back, and the church age is over, gifts will cease. Doesn’t make sense to me. If the church is completed, who would ever think these things were going to continue beyond this point?
   2. When the Holy Spirit comes. When the Holy Spirit comes the spiritual gifts will pass away and cease? Again, doesn’t make sense.
   3. The Word of God: This is the last “Perfect” neuter thing mentioned in scripture.
3. Keep in mind that the comparisons to come up are a difference between the church under “Spiritual gifts” and the church under this “Neuter” “Perfect” thing that will show up as the gifts are passing away, ceasing, … the “Childish things” ARE THE GIFTS.
4. The analogy that now we see dimly, verses now seeing face to face is a comparison between what things are like under “spiritual gifts” verses what things will be like when we are under that which is perfect that replaces them. It is an analogy like any other. For example, In comparison to how I knew my wife when we were first married, I saw her dimly, as through a beaten and polished piece of metal, and now, by comparison, I see her face to face. These are analogies comparing what things are going to be like in comparison, NOT THAT WE WILL ALL BE IN HEAVEN.
5. The word of God is active and powerful … and pierces to the very thoughts and intents of the heart, … are you familiar with that passage?
6. When these childish things cease, pass away, … these THREE things will still abide, Faith, Hope and Love. If these cease when Christ comes back for His church (Duh), what will still be “abiding” here will be faith, hope AND love. What is the scriptural definition of faith?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

1. The question is, are we going to need faith and hope when we are already with Christ? When we already “see” face to face, what purpose does faith and hope serve, according to definition? Let’s look at the next largest section:

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

1. Remember, with 5000 converts in a day, and no schools, these gifts were just that. There was no “Working” to become a better teacher, pastor, … you started your first day as a Christian just as qualified as those speaking and interpreting tongues did. Notice the start of verse 13. “UNTIL” is key. This is the transition point. These things are in place UNTIL certain things happen
   1. Unity of Faith
   2. To the fullness of the stature of Christ

1. And WHEN this transition occurs, as a result of this change, we are:
   1. No longer to be children (Remember the previous reference in 1 Cor. 13)
   2. No longer be tossed to and fro with every wind and wave of doctrine
   3. No longer fooled by the trickery of men
   4. No longer to be fooled by craftiness in deceitful scheming

1. Again, needing to tell people that the spiritual gifts for the equipping of the saints for the work of service will not pass away until we die, or Christ comes for His church, seems to me to be a “Duh”, sort of statement. But that said, if there is “worry” that we might be tossed to and fro with every wind and wave of heaven AFTER the gifts pass away, and that doesn’t occur UNTIL we are in heaven, or Jesus comes, and we have to be worried about the trickery of men AFTER the gifts pass away, … and the craftiness and deceitful scheming of men, AFTER Christ comes for us, I am not positive I am all that excited about heaven. I can see an admonition not to be deceived by these things AFTER the word of God is completed, … but again, keep in mind, the spiritual gifts are given UNTIL this point. And AFTER this point, these admonitions listed here apply, then these “gifts” all of them, ended with the completion of the word of God.

1. What would this result in?
   1. The word of God taking authority over Church prophets, … verses the “Spirit of the prophets being subject to the prophets”.
   2. Commands to study, rightly divide, examine, … the word of God, and to hold fast to, not the teachings of the prophets, but to what was once delivered unto the saints.
   3. The signs, miracles, healings, mention of the gifts, … cease, pass away, being done away with. If they were ceasing, stopping, being done away with, … we should see that they just aren’t mentioned as much in later letters or historical events, as the church starts to mature and the word of God is completed. Then, towards the end of the writing of scripture, there should be no mention of them at all.

Does this mean that God cannot have someone speak a language they do not know, in circumstances where the word of God is preached? No. Does this mean that God cannot miraculously heal someone? No. Paul’s fellow minister received just such a healing. All this does is change the “norm”. Now, these are the exceptions, and I haven’t heard of resurrections being done, blind people receiving sight, … people paralyzed from birth getting up and walking, … on a consistent basis, like they did in the “Infancy” of the church. Things have changed. The only question is how much.

So what about people having the gift of teaching, preaching, … I would have to say that these things are, for the most part, talents. Most of the people I know had pretty much the same abilities before becoming Christians as they had afterwards. They may have gone and gotten training to develop those talents specifically for service to the body of Christ, … Again, this is the same as the speaking foreign languages to share the gospel, when the speaker has absolutely no knowledge of that language sort of thing. Am I saying it never happens? Nope. Just that it is a rarity.

Funny, those that believe in speaking in tongues, in some unknown language of angels do not report people speaking in the tongues of other nations (As a witness to the Jews), never mention this ever occurring in their churches. Funny how this “other” type of tongues has pretty much ceased. Yet, the prophesies concerning the tongues that would be spoken being actual languages, are clear. Plus, the wording in the 1 Cor. 13 is unique. The context is that there were those forsaking the gifts they were assigned by the holy spirit, and acting like they had gifts they weren’t given, to the harm of the body, for self-glorification. Start in chapter 12 and read it. Chapter 13 continued the reasons why they shouldn’t be doing such things. We have:

1. Not just speaking in the “tongues” prophesied, i.e. the tongues of men, but speaking with the tongues of angels as well. We have
2. Not just having the gift of prophesy, but knowing ALL mysteries
3. Not just having the gift of knowledge, but knowing ALL knowledge
4. Not just having the gift of faith, but having faith that results in you being able to cast mountains into the sea.

Keep in mind that this is where most people get the tongues of angels thing. Here’s the problem I have with that:

1. Can they point to ANY “prophet” in ANY church that knows ALL of the mysteries possible to know?
2. Can they point to one person in ANY church that has absolutely ALL knowledge?
3. Can they pint to ANY person, in ANY church that has cast ANY mountains into the see as a result of their great faith?

The answer to all of these, is no, they can’t. The reason why they can’t is because this is figurative language. It’s along the lines of, “He was so cool, that if you tossed him into the sun, the sun would freeze solid.” Sort of thing. Here’s what is being said, “Look people, you are seeking after more showy gifts, and acting like you have them when you don’t, forsaking the gifts God did assign you, hurting and handicapping the body of Christ for your own glory, is wrong. Don’t you understand, even if you could not only speak every language of men, at all times, and even if you could speak in the languages of angels, if there were such a thing, if you did it contrary to love, it would be a complete waste. Don’t you understand that even if you had the gift of prophesy to the point where you knew every mystery that there ever was, having it, and applying the gift contrary to love would be a complete waste? Even if you had knowledge and not just knew things, but knew absolutely everything, just like God, it’s worthless. Jesus didn’t cast mountains into the sea with His faith, and there is no such application of the gift of faith ever even being hinted at, but if you had this gift to the point where you could, on a whim, cast mountains into the sea, if you do not figure out how to apply ANY gift you were assigned in such a way as it shows love of the brethren, it is a complete waste of time.

Can I argue with what people feel? Can I argue with experience? Can I tell someone that believes they have the spiritual gift of teaching that they just had a talent, and they studied, worked, went to school, … and developed that talent more than anything else? No, I can’t argue against any feelings or any experience, or any “I know my beliefs are true”, perspective. Nope. All I can say is that I am not interested in forcing the scriptures, and history, fit what I want to believe. Sorry, but I see change. I see a difference between the infancy of the church, and when, if we were willing to examine the scriptures diligently daily to see if things were so, and all of the turmoil listed in 1 Cor. when we were pretty much only under gifts. I see a difference between starting with our feelings and experiences and what we get when we are willing to be continuously proving all things over and over again, as a habit and way of life, being willing to alter our beliefs to fit what is good/true. I see a difference between holding to the feelings and experiences, and what we get if aren’t trying with all of our hearts to find verification of them in scriptures; if we were manual laborers, daily laboring by the sweat of our brow to cut straight ALL that the word of God said on every topic. If we do what God says we would no longer need to worry about being tossed to and fro with every wind and wave of doctrine. We would have a “Unity of the faith”, called the Word of God, that we could become mature using (As it says in Heb. 5:12-14), and thus we could all see the “craftiness and deceitful scheming of men” for what it is.

The answer is that I cannot argue against a burning in the bosom, or speaking, or praying in the language of angels, because the people believing it believe they are doing exactly that, and no one can tell them different. I cannot argue against people that believe that the only reason others aren’t healed by their spiritual gift of healing is a lack of faith on the part of anyone, … All I can do is say, many of the things have changed. It has been a long time since those receiving the Holy Spirit reported tongues of fire descending.

 

[faithfulservant]

All I can do is say, many of the things have changed. It has been a long time since those receiving the Holy Spirit reported tongues of fire descending.

I saw tongues of fire descend upon a whole congregation during praise and worship a few years ago, right after I was born again. It was beautiful. It was kinda like if you look down a long highway on a hot summer day. You can see heat coming off the ground. That's what it looked like to my eyes, but it was above us inside the church.

You opinion that things have changed is not backed up by anything written in the scriptures. Let us not add to what the Lord has already said, despite what our own personal experience has been.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Hi EmethAlethia:

You bring up some interesting points that are not new.

We are not told exactly why these things stopped but there are other factors involved.
I notice that both Peter and Paul's Gospel started out very simple and full of absolute trust that no matter how crazy things got God was in control.

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
And Then:
Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

What happened between these two verses,we went from great grace to great fear.
Unfortunately God took the rap for Ananias's and Sapphira's death even though scripture nowhere indicates it was God who killed them.Great fear can cause death as in the story of David and Nabal.After that no one dared join them.

Let's keep in mind Jesus knew what kind of men he had chosen.
Luke 9:54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"
Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

These Jews loved death and violence more than peace and they didn't really seem to understand grace at all.

Jesus told Peter to FEED his sheep 3 times because he could see what was going to happen.
He knew men would hijack his "way" and use it to lift themselves up.
Fast forward 5 or 6 years and we hear nothing of the gifts or power coming from the church in Jerusalem.
Peter did not spread the Gospel and the Jews needed food and donations from the new churches who were prospering by Paul's message of grace by faith in Christ alone.

Acts 5:12 The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade
Acts 5:13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.

The spread of the Gospel stops here until Paul who did not learn from Peter or the other apostles carries into the world.

The same pattern appears in Paul's ministry.
By the later letters Paul had also started adding rules.Things had gotten out of control and he decided to take matters in his own hands and clamp down on all this chaos.After all God is not the author of chaos.
Within a few years we had rules about hair length.

I may get killed for saying this but I get the notion that each ministry diminished in spiritual power as more rules were added to the grace message.The power did not diminish right away though,and the momentum that short period of time when grace was preached in the earth has carried us 2000 years.

As far as I can see the gifts and power ceased because of unbelief and what started in the spirit ended in the flesh and that is where the church sits today.A colossal monument to the flesh and carnal understanding of man.

Yes they would need to understand love before the gifts would be of any lasting value.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Hi FaithfulServant,

I thank you for your post. Sincerely, there is no way at all to argue against signs, wonders, experiences, … when they are used to hold fast to a belief, or set of beliefs. My grandmother went to her grave professing that the only true church was the Roman Catholic Church, and that the only true intercessor between man and God was Mary, the ever virgin Mother of God. You see, as a child in France, in Lourdes, I believe, she and her mother, along with a crowd of over a hundred people witnessed a woman’s amputated foot grow back, and an angel clothed all in radiant white light, (She believes was from heaven) appeared, and everyone heard, in their own languages, the message that included that Mary was the only true intercessor, and that the Roman Catholic church was the only true church.
Act_2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

As far as I can tell, this verse is the only one, in all of scripture, where literal tongues of fire did descend. There are other places where the Spirit was given. What I do not see, is where tongues of fire was the “norm”. From what I see, even in scripture, were they the exception. Perhaps, in the experience you saw, more Apostles were receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time? From what I see, making descending tongues of fire a requirement, or the norm, even when the scriptures were being written, might exclude 99% or more, of even those that are “Charismatic” in the Christian faith, and probably every other person who believes they are Christians, but are not Charismatic, on the face of the planet.

Did your experience happen? I believe what you said in your statement. I believe that your experience did occur. Did my grandmother, as a child of 10-15 year old girl, witness a woman’s foot grow back, and an angel, and hear the words? I believe she did. A more sincere, or devout woman, at church every day of her life, constantly lighting votive candles to pray the souls of her departed family and friends out of purgatory, you will never find. I neither doubt her zeal for her beliefs, as a result of her experiences, nor do I doubt yours. Nor, do I doubt the sincere zeal for God, of those that flew planes into the twin towers.

I do not question your zeal, nor your experiences, nor do I question the zeal or experiences of thousands upon thousands of people who believe in God, and believe that their belief groups teachings and experiences verify their beliefs as true, and all others false. The question is not the zeal of those with the experiences, signs, wonders, … or whether or not the signs and wonders occurred. I believe in both in pretty much all cases. I believe that Joseph Smith saw an “Angel of white light” and had his experience as well. There are passages on this angel of light in scripture. The scriptures do not “invalidate the experience”, instead, the fact that Satan himself appears in this form, lends credence to the claim of authenticity.

The question is not do these signs, wonders, experiences, … exist, the question is, in any case, do these experiences and feelings, signs and wonders, … ever validate the correctness of any beliefs. I do realize that pretty much everyone who has these experiences, or has been witness to them, regardless of their beliefs or their belief group, uses them to validate that their own beliefs, and those of their belief group, are the correct ones. While they also conclude that everyone else’s beliefs and experiences, that are contrary to their own, are false, or are deceptions, …. Why is it that experiences, signs, wonders, miracles, … always support the correctness of our own beliefs, while those of opposing belief groups are always disqualified? For example: Do the Mormons accept the massive documentation of the miracle my grandmother was present for as proof that only her beliefs, and those of her church are correct? Yet each of those 100 plus people at that Roman Catholic Shrine, including my grandmother, was interviewed by bishops, and the woman, and the doctor that amputated her foot years earlier in a wagon accident, gave testimony before the pope. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind, and no difference in their testimony. Would you accept what my grandmother witnessed, and was attested to by hundreds of people, and medical records, as proof that the Roman Catholic Church was the only true church, and that Mary is the only intercessor that men should go to? Would my grandmother accept a burning in the bosom, or the Mormons that believe they speak in tongues as proof that the Mormon church was the only true church? Yet everyone believes, with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, that their own experiences, signs and wonders, … are 100% trustworthy proofs that their beliefs, and signs, wonders, experiences, … verify the truth of their beliefs. But then this is not new either.

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

If the signs themselves verify the correctness of the beliefs, then Jesus is wrong. These people believed they were Christians with all their heart. They pointed to the signs, the wonders, the “workings of the power of God” as proof that they were right with Him, and truly, using signs and wonder, if you can work them, is proof that God is working through you and supporting your work and beliefs, is it not? Yet, all of the disciples, including Judas, worked the same signs, as the disciples that survived Judas continued to work for a period of time after his death. I question whether or not believing you are right, because of the signs and wonders, feelings and experiences, is something that is wise. From what I read in scripture, it is consistently something that it would be advisable to avoid. The prolific signs, wonders, … throughout dozens of belief groups with hugely varying beliefs, even on the topic of salvation, seems to point to the fact that everyone has them, and everyone emphatically believes their own belief groups beliefs to be pretty much infallible on the core points, as a result. Does scripture imply that we should trust a belief groups beliefs, or our own beliefs, to be true because of these sorts of things? Do we trust our core beliefs to be true because of these? There is a contrast set up between signs and wonders, and truth:

2Th 2:9-10 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

In scripture, Miracles, signs, wonders, … are a very shaky foundation to build upon. True, many people will alter their doctrines and view of scripture to verify the correctness of their conclusions: that their experiences are valid proof of the correctness of their beliefs and experiences. The question is, again, not whether or not these experiences are valid and true. I believe they do occur in every belief major group. The question is, are these trustworthy to prove the correctness of our beliefs, and, do we love truth more than our experiences and interpret scriptures to verify them as from God, and does that make every belief groups similar experiences from God as well?

Again, do I believe that many of these experiences, signs, wonders, miracles, … perhaps all, are from God? Yes, I do. Do I believe yours are valid and true? Yes, I do. Yet, my belief will not alter the truth of what is and isn’t in scripture, nor the meanings of the words used, in the context in which they are found, any more than the signs and wonders and experiences of every diverse belief group will alter the truth of what they say and mean. To be even more clear, I believe all of these, regardless of the “beliefs”, or the belief group that experiences them, and what beliefs all of the people within all those different belief groups, believe those experiences prove, are all sent from God.

2Th 2:11-13 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Yes, there are those that will state that this passage is only for the end times, or that it only applies to the signs, wonders, miracles, … that other belief groups have seen and participated in. “BUT”, just like the word that starts the last sentence above, Paul judged those alive at the time of his writing of this letter, by the exact same standard, and found that they did pass the test, and did receive a love of the truth so as to be saved.

Keep in mind that we are talking about signs, wonders, … and deceptions, in this passage as well, as the context, just before the verses directly above is exactly that:
2Th 2:9-10 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Am I saying that all those that see signs, wonders, or even participate in them, are deceived? No. They may, and you may, accurately be in line with the truth of what the word of God truly says and means. Unfortunately, since these signs, wonders, miracles, … verify many contradictory things, to “be truth”. Yet many who trust in the correctness of their beliefs, as a result of these, are said, in scripture, to be lost and headed for hell, and it says that many are “hardened” into false beliefs as a result of them.

Again, this is not to say that any and all of the signs and wonders in the bible never take place today, nor am I stating that your experiences, sign gifts, … might not be from God, just as much as those of others. That said, because of the huge range of beliefs, I also have to acknowledge that these same signs and wonders might not be useful in determining which beliefs are fully in line with the meaning of the word of truth. Understand, All I am saying is that trusting beliefs to be true, based on these, might be an eternal mistake. And yes, I do believe that scripture, and the experiences themselves, verify this as true.

 

[EmethAlethia]

ThisCrossHurts,

Thanks for taking the time to type up a reply. You sure did jump to a lot of different topics, and I am not sure how they all tie in, but I am going to examine all of the passages, in context, and then examine the comments, and see if we are on the same page.

Annanias and Saphira: You state that “we went from great grace to great fear”. Ok, I still see grace, and I see that all those under grace should still fear God. What we have here is God’s discipline of His kids. Yes, it seems harsh. What parent kills His kids. Actually all that was done is that God took them home to heaven where they will receive rewards for what they did in Christ, and no punishment whatsoever. God merely removed a public embarrassment. It’s kind of like:

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And, if you want another passage that closely parallels such things, we would have:

1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Annanias and Saphira, “Slept”. The long sleep that results in going to heaven.

Heb 12:3-13 tells us a little more. Those that do not see the reproof of God, when they willfully make choices to disobey Him, are not really His kids, regardless of their beliefs or experiences. The last couple of verses say pretty much what was said in the other passages previously listed:

Heb 12:12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.

Judge yourselves correctly, and be healed, or to continue to misbehave, and what is injured will be “Put out of joint” for good. Pick one. Does this sort of thing put a damper on the, “gee, I can get eternal salvation and do as I please”, conversion crowd? Yep. Grace is not a license to sin, it is a reason to be Holy. Does godliness, including the judgment of those sinning, hamper the Holy Spirit’s working? I would say it hampers lip service conversions, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, when you do not do as I say.”, and it gets in the way of the “Shall I continue to sin that grace may abound.” Crowd, but those who are seriously looking for truth are drawn by the godliness of His people, and repelled by the ungodly who profess Christ. Often it is these non-Christians that profess with their lips, that result in the name of Chrst being blasphemed. Given the situation, the result, and the other passages that describe how God personally reproves His children, I would be hard pressed to see how God’s judgment of Annanias and Saphira, in any way, affected the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you can explain that better.

Next we have, “Let's keep in mind Jesus knew what kind of men he had chosen.
Luk 9:54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?" But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”

I would say that this is the difference between judging those inside the body of Christ, and those outside. We have no business doing any sort of judging of those outside of the body of Christ:

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

True, this sort of judgment does not line up with the word of God, not because of the judgment itself, but because of who was being judged. This passage in 1 Cor 5 is describing the judgment that ALL of the Christians “Should have made”, but didn’t, and therefore, they received judgment and condemnation upon themselves. Again, in chapter 11, the same exact thing is done. If you profess to be a Christian, you are to be judged by the rest of Christians, NOW. If you don’t listen to them, or they fall down on their job, God Himself steps in, and you will get sick, or “sleep”. Keep in mind, showing up early to the Lord’s Supper, and eating all of the bread and drinking all of the wine, so that when the rest show up, some go hungry, and others are drunk, is enough for many to be sick or sleeping. (Oh yah, try getting drunk on non-fermented grape juice … in case you were wondering, that is impossible, yet these people miraculously did it. It must be a miracle of God. That’s another topic though.)

Again, I do not see the fear of God, or being on His bad side, as a bad thing. All it does is keep those that are false believers from false conversions. It keeps some of the tares out of the wheat, so to speak. Yes, a failure you judge the right group, in the right way, will always hamper God’s work. That said, the only positive thing God says about the Corinthians, in all of the letter, is that, “They have all of the gifts.”. That’s as close as it gets to a positive statement. If sin, including being wrongly judgmental, or not judging when they should, were a hindrance to the working of spiritual gifts, wouldn’t the Corinthian church have been without them? Grace isn’t a freedom from judgment, it is freedom from eternal condemnation. True Christians will still be judged, and are commanded to judge, other professing Christians.

Next, you have this to say, “Jesus told Peter to FEED his sheep 3 times because he could see what was going to happen.
He knew men would hijack his "way" and use it to lift themselves up.
Fast forward 5 or 6 years and we hear nothing of the gifts or power coming from the church in Jerusalem.
Peter did not spread the Gospel and the Jews needed food and donations from the new churches who were prospering by Paul's message of grace by faith in Christ alone.”

I am trying to figure out how Jesus asking Peter 3 times if he loved Him has anything to do with spiritual gifts. I could see how He might have asked Him three times due to Peter’s earlier denial of Jesus 3 times. Ahh, somehow you tied this in with the Annanias and Saphira account. Ok. I am getting the idea that you believe that sin should be allowed to run rampant, and that there should be no consequences or penalties for sin within the church, …

Ok, … hmmm well, if that’s the case, we disagree. I believe that we should reprove those that are sinning while it is yet today lest they be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. I believe that there is a good chance that once the person in 1 Cor 5 found out that Paul, and the rest of the church was sitting in judgment upon him, rather than allowing him to continue his sin in the presence of all in the church, that he repented before he died. In 2 Cor. Someone who was in sin, and did repent, was still being looked down upon by other church members. Paul said that they should fully extend grace, full restitution, … to the man.

Ok, let’s look at your next issue, you state, “By the later letters Paul had also started adding rules. Things had gotten out of control and he decided to take matters in his own hands and clamp down on all this chaos. After all God is not the author of chaos. Within a few years we had rules about hair length.”


While I would have to state that you would have had to understand the local history of the area, and the local customs to understand Paul’s comments about hair length, and having your head shaved, I would have to state that it was because things were “out of control, and there was no set standard to judge anything by.” As of the writing of 1 Cor. There were no texts to go by to determine correctness in belief, doctrine, behavior, … for the early Christians to go by. As a matter of fact, a quorum of prophets used to sit in judgment on each other’s teachings and rulings to see if what was said was from God. Given the number of false people acting like they had gifts they didn’t (See 111 Cor 12; t was necessary to have a standard that superseded even the opinions of those groups of prophets. Paul goes head to head with at least one group of these false apostles/prophets in 2 Cor..

By the way, short, or shaven hair was a sign that you were a temple harlot, and were out from all of the authority of men. That hair stuff is all about the chain of headship/authority, and how, if you don’t want to be under your heads authority, you might as well go become one of those “ladies”. It was a powerful illustration at the time, in our town you might say, “If you do not want to be under your husbands authority, you might as well dress in a short skirt and walk up and down on Van Burin.” Of course, if you are not from Phoenix, that last half of the reference will be just as lost on you as the long hair or shaven head comment is on most people today.

You finish with, “I may get killed for saying this but I get the notion that each ministry diminished in spiritual power as more rules were added to the grace message. The power did not diminish right away though, and the momentum that short period of time when grace was preached in the earth has carried us 2000 years…”.

I think that we have a basic difference of understanding. If the scriptures are scripture, then they are profitable for all teaching, reproof, correction, training, … If they aren’t, then we have no New Testament, and nothing to follow. It’s kind of an all or nothing thing. I do not see Holiness, seeking to figure out, obey, and teach others how to figure out and obey, what the scripture says and means as a deterrent to the Holy Spirit’s working. I see a heart desire, and a willingness to figure out and obey the commands of God as a requirement for God to use each of His people to the greatest effectiveness to His glory. In a way, you are stating that all of the laws, rules, regulations, … that were written caused the cessation of gifts. That is funny because while you agree, in the reason, really, when you look at the details, we do not seem to be agreeing at all.

Let me know what you think. Thanks again, Mike

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

What parent kills His kids. Actually all that was done is that God took them home to heaven where they will receive rewards for what they did in Christ, and no punishment whatsoever. God merely removed a public embarrassment.

I believe the only thing God has to do with death is in his identification with us by taking the blame for death.
Man brought death and the Lamb brings life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If it is not God's will that any should perish would it be wise to accuse him of violating one of his own commandments?

John 10:8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

An understanding of John 10:8 resolves many alleged conflicts in scripture.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

We see that we don't want to accuse God for what the thief has done.
Because while we are judging him to be the thief the real thief is still at large.

 

[EmethAlethia]

ThisCrossHurts,

I suppose, if you believe that being taken home to heaven, so that you can receive your eternal rewards, crowns, etc. for what you actually did in Christ, when keeping you here on earth, where your ongoing behavior will keep people from coming to God, and causing blasphemy of His name, resulting in keeping people from coming to Christ, is a bad thing, then God would not do such a thing, in spite of what He says.

That said, God does not save anyone from destruction of the physical body here on earth, either Christian or not. Noone is saved from that type of destruction, except for the two people that were "taken up", but I believe those are the 2 witnesses in Revelation, and they will get their chance to see physical destruction as well. (The rapture excluded, of course). THe context of your "perish" verses, and your not come to steal and destroy passage, is obviously NOT physical death. You do agree, right? We aren't saved from physical death, but spiritual death. With that in mind, your passages really do not aply to the topic at hand. Of course, we are to have abundant life while we are here as well, but that does not preclude GOd's disciplining of His children, or the Father taking disobedient and rebellious children home to be with Him. Again, unless you believe heaven to be a place of punnishment and wrath. Remember, their souls, even when non-repentant, are saved.

I am curious as to what you do with the passages I listed though, to explain those things away. What is being delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his soul might be saved, what is "for this reason many are sick, and some sleep", "WHat is the sin unto death, I do not ask that you pray for this", ...

There is a difference between God's judgment of Christians, and God's judgment of non-Christians, and why "Christians" receive their consequences now (See the details in 1 Cor. 11).

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I suppose, if you believe that being taken home to heaven

We just have a little communication gap,if you believe heaven is a place you go to then that's the first gap.


John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

According to Ephesians chapter 2 we were dead and crucified, buried and resurrected and seated with Christ.
God desires to make an abode in us while in him we live and move and have our being.
He desires us to be one with him so that the world may know that God sent Jesus.
How does someone dying cause the world to know that God sent Jesus?

If we die and go to heaven then what is the resurrection about?

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Why didn't she say I know I will see him in heaven?
His answer was that he was not bound by time or space or human wisdom and understanding.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Where does a resurrection fit in to dying and going to heaven or hell?

I just don't think popular religion has taught a proper understanding of this life or the next life.
Little issues like this make it difficult to understand each other.

That said, God does not save anyone from destruction of the physical body here on earth, either Christian or not.

Not nessesarily,Jesus said "be perfect":

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus said no one takes his life from him and that he can lay it down and take it back up.
Death (spiritual and physical)is a result of sin which has been laid on him whom God sent.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is an enemy and not God's will so I doubt he takes anyone home because he is making us his home.

 

[B-A-C]

It seems these gifts are given to the body of Christ (the Church). I see no where in the Bible it says "only one church".
1 Cor 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1 Cor 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1 Cor 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1 Cor 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1 Cor 12:31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

The fruits of the Spirit
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
These are a good way to determine the maturity of a Christian in their walk (ourselves included)

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
Keep in mind, Stephen wasn't one of the 12 apostles. Yet he did miracles.

John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Jesus said we will do greater things than he did.

Mark 16:17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
The great commission says Christans will go forth with the ability to do certain "miracles".

I also have to wonder, when someone prays someone... say they have cancer or something pretty bad, worse than just a cold. And they get healed,
was that a miracle? When a married couple that wants to get divorced suddenly decides to "work it out", was that a miracle? When a drug junkie or alcoholic
suddenly stops using, is that a miracle? I've seen these things, you hear of them all of the time. Yet, it seems a great many people are out there saying, God
doesn't do miracles anymore.

If it isn't our prayers and the power of God, then what is it? Just random coincedence?

Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

 

[EmethAlethia]

Hello again ThisCrossHurts,

I would say that we have a difference in how we go to scriptures, and what we do with them. Gathering passages we can use to prove our beliefs true, and prove all opposing beliefs false, and interpreting them in the light of what we believe to be true works for absolutely every person in the world that wants to hold fast to their beliefs. Gathering absolutely every passage that can be found on each topic at hand, and then interpreting each of them in accordance with the context, flow of thought, flow of discussion, … in which they are found, and consistent with the meaning of the same words and phrases as they are used throughout the scriptures, does take a significantly longer time. That said, seeking to present ALL of the passages, and ALL of the meaning of key words as they are used throughout the scripture is quite beyond the range of forum communication, so even those that use the later method will appear as those that use the former because of space limitations, and indeed, no one from the first group would put up with a thorough study done by the second group.

For those reading the spiritual gifts forum, who are looking for how this thread links up, the “main point” that fits with the topic here, is that to write to others that the spiritual gifts that are for the “equipping of the saints for the work of service here on earth”, prior to Christ’s coming for His church, would “cease”, “stop”, only last “Until” He, Christ, came back and got His church, or until we got to heaven. My point was that God even bothering to write this at all, was nonsensical, as there is no church to “build up” in heaven, and while there is a lot we do not “Know about heaven”, Equipping saints for the ministry of the church, “IN HEAVEN”, has never been a question anyone I have ever met has had. Even those that believe in spiritual gifts have never have sought to ask about spiritual gifts in heaven. Yet many assume that This is what the passage is discussing. Again, that was my point that still pertains. Anyway, for those of you following these posts, that’s how we got where we are. We are now rabbit trailing a bit: on the topic of being with the Lord immediately after death, and getting our physically resurrected bodies at a later point, for most, and at the time of the rapture, for the rest.

ThisCrossHurts, Yes, I do believe that as soon as we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Since, if we are absent from the body, and present with the Lord, the question remains, where is the Lord:

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


Lastly, when do we get our physical, and glorified, bodies back?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You stated that you do not believe that we go to heaven, and you offer this verse:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I agree with you that, as of now, other than the two men who were physically taken up, that were listed in the O.T., and, of course, Christ Himself, no man has physically ascended into heaven, and those do not have a glorified body, and so cannot be in the full presence of God. I also believe that these will get the chance to physically die as they will be the two witnesses listed in Revelation. (They need a glorified body to be in the full presence of God, and this seems to me, to be the only interpretation that fits. That said, there is no direct proof. Just circumstantial proof of this.)

You then quoted Ephesians 2:6 “And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” You go on to state: “According to Ephesians chapter 2 we were dead and crucified, buried and resurrected and seated with Christ. God desires to make an abode in us while in him we live and move and have our being.”.


Throughout Ephesians 1 & 2, There are dozens of places where those “In Christ”, “In the Beloved”, “In Him”, are, as a group predestined to do, and believe, and receive, certain things as a result of that “position” “In Him”, with Eph. 1:13, as the key as to how, in the course of time, each of us gets to be “positionally” in that “group” . Yes, positionally, as a group, this is where all Christians are. Spiritually, is we are figuring out and obeying His commandments, we have made our spiritual abode with Him. When we die, we are also with Him, but without this body of sin, so on a much higher level, if you will. Physically, we will be with Him in our glorified bodies, at a later point in time. Read the rest of Ephesians 1 and look at all of the “In Him”, “In the beloved”, “In Christ” references. Here’s the biggie though:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


You next quote: John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Again, the context, flow of thought, flow of discussion helps us to determine that this is a future time when our abode will be with God.

Joh 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Joh 14:20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."


There is a sense where those that seek to figure out and obey His commands are abiding in the Father, and in the Son, … and, of course, those that are not doing so are not abiding in Him. Yes, regardless, if they are true Christians, their “eventual” “Physical” abode will be with Christ. Keep in mind is that, in some cases, the context, in the gospels, is only the apostles themselves. In others the context applies to all future Christians, … and always, the context part is essential to proper understanding.


Next you quote: John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, *that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me*. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I believe that taking disobedient and rebellious children home is nothing other than an act of love. It also protects the family of God from devastation, and the Name, and Word of God, from being blasphemed. I only once, misbehaved as a child to the point where my dad stopped a public outing with family and friends, to take me home. It only happened once. The consequences were dire, but deserved. I never thought my “loving earthly father” would go to the point of taking me home, and so I pursued a course of rebellion and disobedience. I was wrong. Keep in mind that what I proposed is EXACTLY the same thing, only those in Christ will not receive punishment and wrath, but rather rewards, in heaven. In that, being taken home by God is far superior to being taken home by your earthly father.

You state: “He desires us to be one so that the world may know that God sent Jesus.” I agree. If that is what we are doing.

How does someone dying cause the world to know that God sent Jesus? Taking someone who is destroying the body of Christ, and causing others to blaspheme the name of Christ, and causing them to refuse to even consider the truth of the gospel because they profess Christianity and use that as an excuse for lawless living, home, shows God’s love and commitment to His kids. It shows God’s discipline of unruly children as those that love their kids discipline them, and if you do not receive that discipline, you are not a child of His. And yes, if we do not receive His discipline, and repent, the limb that is lame is put out of joint completely, as it says in Hebrews. If God does not judge, and discipline His children now, they must be judged and condemned with the rest of the world. 1 Cor. 11:29-32

You then ask: “If we die and go to heaven then what is the resurrection about?” The physical resurrection of the dead, not the souls of those “in Christ” going to heaven at the moment of death. The passage you list next describes this moment in time:

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


You then ask, “Why didn't she say I know I will see him in heaven?” Because Jesus was talking about “Physical” resurrection, and not the resurrection of the spirit. “The dead in Christ, on that day, will rise first, …”

You state: “His answer was that he was not bound by time or space or human wisdom and understanding.”

Actually, Jesus was stating that He was God, and that physical resurrection was within His domain, not just at the resurrection on the last day, but any time He chose. But, this wasn’t a resurrection with a glorified body. Lazurus died again.

You then quote: “John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”. And ask, “Where does a resurrection fit in to dying and going to heaven or hell?”

Again, are we talking about the soul being in the presence of the Lord, or the physical resurrection of all the dead “in Christ”? Jesus raised a number of people from the dead. Even the apostles did. Yet all of these people physically died again, at a later date. ALL Christians that are alive, have a body of sin, through Adam. If you become a child of God, even if you physically die, you are still spiritually alive, and with God. The physical shell must die, or be changed, as our “sinful flesh” cannot tolerate the direct presence of God.

You then state: “I just don't think popular religion has taught a proper understanding of this life or the next life.
Little issues like this make it difficult to understand each other.”.

I find religions only teach those within them how to believe their beliefs are true, and how all opposing beliefs are false, and how to interpret each of their groups “selected” passages and data in such a way as to prove their beliefs true, and all opposing beliefs false. Gathering every passage that pertains to this issue, examining all of those passages in the light of their context, flow of thought, flow of discussion that surrounds them, and with a meaning of words that is consistent with how those same words and phrases are used throughout the scriptures, not adding, subtracting, or distorting meaning to force the passages to comply with our beliefs, and then combining all of those “facts” so that nothing contradicts anything else, but so everything fits perfectly, without leaving information out or twisting it to fit a religious belief, is a completely different thing than what “religions” do.

I originally stated: “That said, God does not save anyone from destruction of the physical body here on earth, either Christian or not.” I would like to state that what was meant here was that only a glorified body can be in the presence of the fullness of the presence of God. The way most of us will see that is through the death of our physical bodies, and receiving a glorified body, “In the last day”.

To this you replied, “Not necessarily, Jesus said "be perfect"” and followed that up with:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

Yes, that is the target. Yet, none of us will ever hit it. “He will continue to perfect us until His coming.” And Paul himself said, “Wretched man that I am, I do the thing I would not, and the thing I would do I do not do … who can save me from this body of death, …” Paul goes on to say that if our hearts cry out to do, and be, all that God desires, then our spirit is alive, even though we are currently bound to a body of sin and death.

You state: “Jesus said no one takes his life from him and that he can lay it down and take it back up.” Yes, Jesus said this about His own physical resurrection of the dead.

You state: “Death (spiritual and physical)is a result of sin which has been laid on him whom God sent.” Death is a result of Adam’s sin, and it was passed on to all of us through the seed of Adam. This law is still in effect in our flesh, and this flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. The payment for our sins, and Adams sin, has been paid. That does not change the nature of our fleshly body though. That must be changed, and it will be on the last day.

You quote: “1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” I agree. But this hasn’t occurred yet… the time is coming when it will be.

You state: “Death is an enemy and not God's will so I doubt he takes anyone home because he is making us his home.”

Death is the enemy of those that do not know and love God.

Php 1:20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Understand that, from the perspective of those in Christ, death is no longer something to be feared, but rather something to look forward to. Paul’s perspective, above, should indeed be the perspective of all Christians eventually. Throughout the scriptures, when those that truly love God and die, are said to “Sleep”. Thus, in the passage where Lazarus died, Jesus said, “Lazarus sleeps”, instead of Lazarus is dead. Even the disciples didn’t get it though, so don’t feel bad. That is why, throughout the N.T. those that die in Christ are said to sleep. In Christ, there is no more sting to death.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

Physical death is no longer something to fear, and yes, eventually, on the last day, even “Physical death” will be done away with.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Hi B.A.C.,

I don’t believe anyone was stating that God can’t, or doesn’t, heal, or do anything else any more. That said, what was normal for the early church was not normal afterwards, and indeed, towards the writing of the last letters of scripture, the same people that merely walked by and as their shadows passed had everyone being healed from everything, are now having problems with getting any results at all, in some cases.

Act 5:14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number, 15 to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. 16 Also the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed.

Php 2:25 But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my need; 26 because he was longing for you all and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick. 27 For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow.

From what I see, the Philippians passage is now the norm. We pray, We anoint, we hope. … and, in some cases, our prayers are answered. In other cases, they are not. To claim that what was true in the infant church is true now, is to ignore the fact that things changed. Even in the case here. If anyone were to say that Paul’s faith wasn’t up to par, or that he could not accurately assess the fact that Epaphroditus was indeed, a true brother, a fellow worker, a fellow soldier in Christ, and on top of that a personal minister to Paul himself, didn’t have the “faith” to be healed, would be ludicrous. Yet, this man was not healed like in the early days of the church. I believe those that do not see the difference between the birth and infancy of the church, and how things were towards the end of the writing of scripture, and continue to be today, just don’t want to look.

Again, there is a difference between the norm, and the exceptions. Does it happen that someone blind, or paralyzed from birth, or leprous, … gets completely healed today? Yes. Do you hear about it often? How about EVERYONE getting healed of EVERYTHING by a shadow passing over them?

Does this mean that the sun shining on us, and on the lost isn’t the grace of God? No. Does this mean that the healing of Christians and non-Christians is not God’s personal shining down on all of them? Is it not true that when God takes every one of us home due to sickness and deterioration of our fleshly bodies, that it was only God’s grace that kept us alive that long? Of course it is. Is it random? No. God knows every moment of our days since before there was a one of them. We do as He commands us to do in His word. He handles the results.

Ja. 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

If we live, we live for Christ. To die is gain.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I would say that we have a difference in how we go to scriptures, and what we do with them.

I would agree with this but to suggest there is only one way to study is rather limiting.
Jesus did not answer many questions with the answers the inquirers were expecting.
There are many ways to mine,collect and sort data but the truth is a person and eternal life is knowing God and the one whom he sent.Jesus usually answered questions with questions because sometimes a question is not valid because it is based on misunderstanding.

Gathering passages we can use to prove our beliefs true, and prove all opposing beliefs false, and interpreting them in the light of what we believe to be true works for absolutely every person in the world that wants to hold fast to their beliefs.

What I believe is subject to change with maturity in understanding the scriptures and God's divine plan.
I do have a belief goal though:
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


I actually did not completely disagree with your first post I only added that there were other factors involved and I only gave one example.The apostles saw partly so they were not perfect and we can glean from their errors.

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
This verse really is a key to understanding and will cancel 1000 alleged contradictions.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi B.A.C.,


From what I see, the Philippians passage is now the norm. We pray, We anoint, we hope. … and, in some cases, our prayers are answered. In other cases, they are not. To claim that what was true in the infant church is true now, is to ignore the fact that things changed..

I think we need to be careful here saying things have changed.
Psa 102:27; Mal 3:6; Jas 1:17; Psa 119:160; Gal 1:6; Isa 40:8; Heb 13:8
God is the same forever, he doesn't change. Neither does the Bible or his commandments. Nothing should be taken away from the Bible, and nothing should be added to it. If the church is different now, why? Should it be different? The Bible says Jesus didn't do many miracles in his home town because of lack of faith, maybe that's why you don't see it in some churches today.

I think the reason many "Christians" believe that homosexuality, abortion, fornication, etc... are are ok today, is because "times changed" or "God changed" or the "church changed" or "the Bible doesn't apply anymore". Well times may change and some churches may change, but God and his Word stay the same, if we drift too far from these, maybe we should take a serious look at why.

Rev 2:4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

 

[B-A-C]

Having said all of that, I do think God answers all of our prayers. So then why doesn't everyone get healed? There are a number of reasons.

Jas 5:16; un-confessed sin.
Mark 6:5-6; unbelief or unwillingness on the part of the person being healed.
Mat 17:19-20; unbelief or lack of faith in the person doing the miracle
1 Cor 11:28-31; still living in certain un-repented sin.
1 Pet 3:7; Spouses not honoring each other.
Jas 1:2; to build character and faith.
..there are a few more that I don't know off the top of my head and need to look up.

Psa 32:3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Hello again,

While the topic should be spiritual gifts, the concept of “change” and of rules of interpretation of all languages apply to this topic as well as others, and, indeed, unless we are solely going to go off of feelings and experiences, and create our own word of God for ourselves, getting to the truth of the meaning is essential. Also, given that Judas did the same signs as the rest of the Apostles, but was lost, along with many others doing signs, wonders, miracles, … and being lost as well, not to mention the signs and wonders that will be done by the antichrist, … all of whom will have strong reasons to interpret scriptures in such a way as to validate their experiences and the feelings that go along with them, getting to the truth of the meaning so that we can verify, not the source of the miracles, signs, … but rather whether or not they are in line with truth. (2 Thes. 2:10-13)

There are those that want to state that things never change throughout scriptures, yet, that is the farthest thing from the truth. Are we still in the garden without a knowledge of good and evil, with only a single command of God to obey or rebel against? Was not God’s destruction of the earth a first? The commands of Moses? Are we still “under the law”? Does circumcision avail you anything with God? Is the tithe still in place, or are we now to b “hilarious givers”, never giving grudgingly or under compulsion, and always to equality, never to the point where we have lack and others have an abundance, but to meet their lack so that, in the future, if things reverse, their abundance shall met our lack? Spiritual gifts coming on the scene was a change in and of itself. The second coming will be a change, … the bible, as far as the changes of God’s working with men, is all about consistent and persistent change in what God does, and is doing, with mankind.

THisCrossHurts, I stated: “I would say that we have a difference in how we go to scriptures, and what we do with them.” To which you replied: “I would agree with this but to suggest there is only one way to study is rather limiting.”
Jesus did not answer many questions with the answers the inquirers were expecting. There are many ways to mine, collect and sort data but the truth is a person and eternal life is knowing God and the one whom he sent .Jesus usually answered questions with questions because sometimes a question is not valid because it is based on misunderstanding.”

There are many ways to respond to a question, and Jesus did, indeed respond as He chose, and not as those who questioned Him wanted Him to respond. That said, all languages have meaning, and getting to the exact meaning is important. If I am a nuclear submarine captain, and I, and my other officers onboard, choose to interpret “Happy Thanksgiving” As, “Activate all your nukes and send them flying to Russia, I believe that there might be some ramifications of interpreting that any way I chose to interpret it. What was said, and was written, is a matter of record. Bible writers wrote the scriptures, each and every word, as they were breathed out by God “Theo – Nuestos” = God breathed. It is the picture of a toy boat in a tub of water being moved by the very breath of the boy in charge of it.

If the meaning of the words is not important, you are correct, anyone can interpret anything to mean anything they want. “Murder” (Which has a different meaning than killing, in scripture) can be Good, so can raping, Stealing, Adultery, Homosexuality, Blasphemy, … You can even interpret a passage to mean that your wife must make you pizza every Tuesday night. The issue is that most people do not want to know the truth of what God says and means, or that there isn’t a single interpretation that accurately conveys the meaning of each individual passage (Unless noted elsewhere in scripture.) the reason why people, and belief groups are unwilling to do this is so that they can use the scripture to support whatever they believe to be true and so that they can refute all opposing beliefs. Instead of the truth of the meaning, and altering our beliefs to fit, most prefer to hold to their beliefs, and then look for passages that they can make mean what they want to believe. And yes, getting to the truth is far more “restrictive” then making it up as we go.

Let’s see if I can get some real world, “English” examples going. For example: “He kicked the bucket.”, verses, “He kicked the cat.”? Both bring a picture or an idea into your head. Both of them are based on the “Most common meaning”, of these phrases today. And yes, “cats”, and “buckets”, are completely different. Question: When you read, he kicked the cat, did you think of a huge “White Tiger”? No, right? Why not? Well kicking White Tigers is not something people “Normally” do. You pictured a common house cat, right? That’s good, that’s our first rule, whenever possible, use the meaning for words, and phrases that goes along with the most common understanding for those words and phrases.

Let’s go a little further, what if I said, “The man kicked the cat. The tiger lashed out at him with his paw but would not leave the unconscious body of the well-known Las Vegas magician.” Adding that second sentence, as additional context, does indeed alter the meaning of the word cat, and does, indeed convey meaning other than the normal interpretation we would get if we just stuck with, “He kicked the cat.”. Rule number 2: Unless you have an uncontroversial reason for doing so, stick with a meaning that fits with the rest of the surrounding context in the passage those words are a part of. Keep in mind, the flow of thought, flow of discussion, flow of arguments each passage is a part of, and interpret everything in the light of that context.

Let’s go a little further, “He kicked the bucket.”. We all have a common understanding of what that phrase means today, and apart from having more context “added” in the surrounding conversation, everyone with an in depth understanding of English figurative language will be able to accurately deduce that the man, “died”. Again, if the context adds, “And he spent the next four hours cleaning paint out of his carpets.”, then we have reason, in the context, for altering our most common interpretation. True, his wife might kill him, or if it were a 2000 year old Persian rug, he might wish to de dead, but if a person wanted to argue for the most common interpretation, “IN THAT CONTEXT”, that would be aq “wrong” interpretation. The person interpreting that passage to mean that the live man, cleaning his carpet, had “kicked the bucket” and died, is simply completely wrong. Again, there are not “Multiple” available meanings. There is only ONE meaning. The other is a misinterpretation.

Here’s another issue, the issue of time period, local culture, religious significance, common practice, … during the time period the passage in question was written, and what is going on at that time, in that area, with the people involved (The writer, and those being written to.). Let’s go back to the, “He kicked the bucket”, phrase. There was a time when those who were executioners, who did hangings, simply pulled a peg that dropped a trap door, letting gravity do its work. Since everyone did the process (When a gallows was constructed.) pretty much the same way, there was only one possible interpretation for the phrase, “he kicked the bucket.”. That meaning was that the man was either suffering from a sore set of toes, and/or he made a mess, after the man’s foot contacting some sort of bucket. (Again, interpreting it to mean a giant smelting bucket where steel is formed, would be altering the most common meaning, and unless that was cleared up by the context, we should not interpret it to mean that.) So, for all documents, in English, that were written during this time period, this is the only possible option. But things changed.

Being an executioner started to fall out of style. Few people like being known as an executioner, and, on occasion, the relatives, of the person being hanged, took exception, and since everyone knew who was under the hood as well, that went out of style. So, they altered the construction of the gallows slightly, and came up with the idea of buckets of sand, attached to a rope, attached to the pins that pulled the trap door that, “resulted in the man no longer having any physical means of support”. (Yes, figurative language that only has one available meaning, that is determined by context.) Eventually, it was the men who were being hanged that would kick these buckets off when they got tired, as just letting your legs give way resulted in a very slow death by asphyxiation. Instead of the “normally” quicker death of getting your neck broken. Yes, men kicked their own “buckets”. That is where the modern “meaning” comes from. HOWEVER, there was a transitional period of almost a year. During this approximate year, the executioners didn’t pull the pin, and they didn’t let those being hanged kick the bucket, but the executioners themselves kicked the bucket. So there are a few writings that included things like, “And he kicked the bucket, the trap door dropped, and the man was hanged by the neck until dead. He then went home for a nice diner with his wife and kids.” The executioner kicked the bucket and then went home to eat.

Like I said, they eventually moved the supports for the gallows, and the trap doors, closer to the front edge of the platform, allowing for significantly more suspense, especially during a multiple hanging. Plus, there was less likelihood of the executioner being judged by men… again. They themselves were the executioners.

There is one more aspect that I would like to go into. Koine Greek was only in usage for a very narrow space of time. It literally is a dead language. This means that the meanings of the words changed very little in the 200 years where the Septuagint was translated, through the time the New Testament was completed. The problem is that it is a “dead” language, and there are no existing dictionaries of possible meanings for words available, that were written and compiled at the time.

There are rules for interpreting meaning. We discussed some of them. We have a specific genre of writing in the scripture. Indeed, it includes all of the writings that every “Christian” belief group, that believes in the scriptures, includes in it’s listings of what is the Word of God. (Yes, there are many that add other books, but this is the group that all pretty much accept. (Yes there are exceptions, a few believe in only the words of Paul, a few only the words of Jesus, some only a particular translation, …, but that is a separate set of issues that only pertain to the smallest minority.) SO, what we have is all of the Greek O.T., that Jesus and the disciples quoted from, and the N.T. itself, all with the same meanings of words. This meaning is often strictly limited to the interpretations available in scripture.

For example the word pneuma. It means air, or breath, sometimes figuratively used of life, as in, as long as I have breath in me. But in the scriptures, it also has another meaning, as in Holy Spirit. This meaning is fairly well confined to religious documents. If we go through all of the places where the word (root word) is used in scripture, there is a range of meaning available, and the word is used in a specific phrase in many passages, especially in the N.T. The word “hagios”, or holy, precedes the word normally interpreted to be air or breath, in many places. From the context of all these places (Flow of thought, flow of discussion, flow of arguments, … surrounding these phrases, we come to understand that this combination word, is a “person”, with unique attributes, strengths, purposes, purposes, ..… and that the Spirit is equal to the other persons of the godhead. Yes, consistent usage does make this derivable from the complete set of documents we call the bible. The point is this, to determine meaning of words and phrases, often it is necessary to examine all of the places where the same word(root) is used, to get to a range of available meanings. At that point, context surrounding each of the usages, determines meaning.

We can’t work backwards from modern meanings to scriptural meanings because we are always creating new meanings for words that have no real bearing on the words in scripture. Take the word pneumatic, for instance. It means air powered in modern English. Is the Holy Spirit “Air powered”? How big a compressor does He need? How long is His hose? Words have a meaning limited to the range of use found in scripture. Pornea is “fornication”. In scripture it is used as unlawful sexual intercourse of any kind. This includes premarital sex, adultery homosexuality, incest, bestiality, … but it always has this complete range of meaning, and no more.

Another point. There are places where “most modern interpreters” will interpret a particular word about 725 times out of an available 735 times to have the exact same meaning when translating scripture. In the last 10, they choose a radically different meaning with radically different theological interpretations from the first meaning. YET, if they stuck to the first meaning, the passage would still make perfect sense, and while it might mess with their personal beliefs and doctrines, the concept would still fully fit within the context of the rest of the scriptures. In other words, the “change from the norm” was not required by the context of the text. They choose the “White Tiger” interpretation for “He kicked the cat”, in 10 out of 735 times, when there is no real call for that interpretation based on context.

Here’s the issue, if you really want to understand the meaning of what God intended, and that meaning is pretty much consistent throughout the old and new testaments, STICK TO THAT ONE MEANING, unless choosing that meaning results in complete nonsense.

Another rule: There are many places where similar topics are discussed. Often belief groups will pick out a couple of passages, ignoring the context, flow of thought, flow of discussion, culture, history, … surrounding each of the passages they do “select” and then ignore all the rest of the passages that pertain to the topic at hand, and merely interpret every one of their “selected” passages in the light of their beliefs. The point is this. God, while He does change how He deals with man, how He responds to men, what He does with men, how He interacts with men, … does not “contradict” Himself. If we take all of the passages that do apply, and hold to the singular meaning that is allowable when we follow the rules for interpreting the meaning of ANY language / writing, NEVER contradicts Himself. So, if we want truth, and not merely to gather the passages we can “use” to hold fast to our beliefs, and gather the passages we can “use” to prove all opposing beliefs false, all we need to do is seek out every passage that might apply to the topic, interpret each and every passage that might apply in accordance with the context surrounding each of them, and with a meaning of words that takes into account the most common interpretation of the meaning of words, and that fits with the context, and then combine the meaning of all of the passages in such a way that no meaning is added, no meaning is subtracted, and none is twisted or distorted to force it to support our beliefs, feelings, and/or experiences.

Interpreting the meaning of scriptures is a matter of habitually doing what it takes to get to the truth of the meaning of scriptures as a habit and way of life, and altering our beliefs to fit the fullness of all that the word of God says and means. Maturity is:

Heb 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Keep in mind that everyone, you, me, everyone, is going to stand either ashamed, or approved, based on how well and how “Diligently” we get to the exact truth of all that the word of God really says and means:

Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Keep in mind that seeking out ways to justify what we believe and experience only results in everyone, from every belief group, validating their beliefs and experiences, “using” scripture. This is not seeking truth. This is not seeking God. this is seeking to justify our beliefs, ignoring the truth of what they really say and mean. This s not something new, and keep in mind that some of the most zealous people who have ever lived, who believed they were completely in the will of God, and were, according to all they believed and knew, His people, did exactly as most of us do today. We seek to justify our beliefs while refusing to be subject to what the word of God says and means:

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Keep in mind that I never question anyone’s zeal for their beliefs about God. Nor do I question whether or not they “can” interpret their selected passages in such a way as to justify what they do believe. Anyone can. But that is what they are “seeking”, justification of their beliefs, not the truth, and not God. The problem is, if they really aren’t willing to seek out, and diligently work, to get the truth about God, what He says, means, how He works, what He has changed over the years and why, … then we aren’t really seeking “Him” at all. Unfortunately then, the passage that we just read, really does apply to them as well. And, so does this one:

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That passage has two parts. The first, the majority of the people in the word get right. They believe that God exists. The second is that you must believe that God rewards those that habitually, consistently, as a way of life, keep on seeking Him. In scripture, what you habitually live in accordance with proves what you really believe. If you really, honestly, truly believe that God is going to bless you beyond your wildest dreams, for habitually seeking Him, in all areas of your life, you will not seek merely to prove your conceptions, beliefs, feelings and experiences, … true, you are going to seek to get to the truth of all He says and means.

One more thing. Notice the word “Impossible” in that quote. No matter what “else” you do “for” God, “for” others, … for ANY reason, if you do not believe that God will reward you for seeking the truth, no matter what the cost to your beliefs, it isn’t just unlikely that you will be pleasing to God, it is impossible for you to be pleasing to Him.

One more thing, all of the things that were listed above do not change things like the fact that the Gospel is “Simple”. What it does is explain why there are hundreds of “different” simple gospels for how people do end up in heaven, and why many of them completely contradict the basic tenants of the “simple” gospel taught and believed by others. Getting to the truth of what the simple gospel really is, and what it means, isn’t simple, or there wouldn’t be hundreds of different “simple” gospels.

Keep in mind that Jesus EXPECTED the Pharisees to “Use their minds”, to, “Look at what was historically done, and was not condemned.”, to, “Use logic and reason to see what God really said and meant by looking at all of the things that had been done for centuries, and had not been condemned, ever, and were done, or practiced, by godly men and women, and assume those sort of things were acceptable, … This is why when the religious leaders were condemning Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, or the disciples eating grain, Jesus mentions things like David eating the show bread, people performing circumcision on the Sabbath, people pulling animals from wells on the Sabbath, people leading their animals to water and fodder on the Sabbath, … God expects us to use our brains and figure out where things don’t fit, where things don’t match up with our beliefs, where the “godly”, or “Those after God’s own heart”, did things and were not condemned by God, or didn’t do things we believe are right to do, and were not condemned for that either. Something that doesn’t seem to fit with what we believe and teach, is usually a sign of where we are trying to force the word of God to fit our beliefs, and we really do not want the truth in that area. In truth, all that was done and said is consistent with all that God has ever said and meant. (Again, that doesn’t mean that how God works with His people does not change, just that God doesn’t change. He is working out His plan, and for each phase, He works differently.)

No, I have nothing against those that do not want to apply the rules that are needed to get to the truth of the meaning of all languages, and get to the truth of the meaning of the scriptures. Yes, anyone can interpret the scriptures any way they choose, and believe anything they want. God designed it that way. (2 Thes. 2:10-13) No, my “beliefs” on this are not going to change what the truth really says and means, and as I always say, if you agree with all of my beliefs, only one thing is true you are wrong.

The only reason any of the interpretations I have offered should stand would be that they are interpretations that are in line with the rules of getting to the meaning of all documents in al languages, of all genres, for all time. And that they fit with all the other passages in the scriptures that might apply when they are interpreted in the light of the same rules, and so that all of the meaning from all of the passages is consistent with everything else.

Yes, “things change” with regards to how God interacts with the world. With regards to what He does, … the good thing is that the meaning of His word doesn’t change, and it is the job of His people to figure out all that He says and means on every topic. Or, we can forget the rules, everyone can forget all of the rules that allow people to get to the truth of what all languages mean, throughout history, and make up any truth we want to believe, believe anything we want to believe “as truth”, and force the word of God to mean anything we want, and call it the word of God. To me, getting to the truth of what God said and meant is at least as important as figuring out the truth of what humans say and mean.

True story: About 15 years back, I worked on the campaign of a Christian who was running for state representative. During the first week of his campaign, the local newspaper sent a reporter to interview him. His first, and only question was, “Do you hate homosexuals?”. Of course his answer was all about how God loves all men, and wants the best for all men, and that how that lifestyle choice was harmful, and all of the statistics that showed how destructive it was to their lives, even more so that smoking, … And that, God commanded that we should love all men as we love ourselves, considering their welfare to be equal to our own. The next day, the religion section, and the liberal lifestyle section ran two separate articles. In the religion section it stated that this candidate speculated that God was a homosexual and had relationships with homosexuals, and that the representative himself wanted to have homosexual relationships. The same writer, in the liberal lifestyle section, talked about how God is killing off homosexuals because of their deviant lifestyle, and how he was going to continue with God’s plan and oppose all health benefits, insurance, … and that he, and God both hate homosexuals. While neither one of the articles stated the truth, both accurately quoted “selected parts” of what the candidate had to say, but neither reflected the meaning of anything that the candidate said and meant, if it were taken in the complete context of the conversation the quotes were a part of.

The point is this, if you aren’t ok with others twisting and distorting your words, to make it appear that you are saying something you are not, do not do the same exact thing with the word of God. Adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting it to make it mean what we want is not appreciated, and it proves that you don’t want the truth of what He really did say and mean, and that you are not willing to be subject to His words. Yes, you can have zeal for God and distort His word to make it justify what you want it to say. Yes, most people that believe themselves to be God’s people use this method. Yes, anyone can “prove their beliefs true, and hold fast to them, using this method of gathering the passages they can use to support their beliefs, feelings, experiences, …, and the ones they can use to refute all opposing beliefs, feelings, experiences, … but that methodology never gets anyone to the truth, it just hardens them into their beliefs, and results in closing their eyes and ears to the truth.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello again,

While the topic should be spiritual gifts, the concept of “change” and of rules of interpretation of all languages apply to this topic as well as others, and, indeed, unless we are solely going to go off of feelings and experiences, and create our own word of God for ourselves, getting to the truth of the meaning is essential. Also, given that Judas did the same signs as the rest of the Apostles, but was lost, along with many others doing signs, wonders, miracles, … and being lost as well, not to mention the signs and wonders that will be done by the antichrist, … all of whom will have strong reasons to interpret scriptures in such a way as to validate their experiences and the feelings that go along with them, getting to the truth of the meaning so that we can verify, not the source of the miracles, signs, … but rather whether or not they are in line with truth. (2 Thes. 2:10-13)

So which scripture texts are reliable for interpretations in your opinion?

 

[B-A-C]

There are many ways to respond to a question, and Jesus did, indeed respond as He chose, and not as those who questioned Him wanted Him to respond. That said, all languages have meaning, and getting to the exact meaning is important. If I am a nuclear submarine captain, and I, and my other officers onboard, choose to interpret “Happy Thanksgiving” As, “Activate all your nukes and send them flying to Russia, I believe that there might be some ramifications of interpreting that any way I chose to interpret it. What was said, and was written, is a matter of record. Bible writers wrote the scriptures, each and every word, as they were breathed out by God “Theo – Nuestos” = God breathed. It is the picture of a toy boat in a tub of water being moved by the very breath of the boy in charge of it.

If the meaning of the words is not important, you are correct, anyone can interpret anything to mean anything they want. “Murder” (Which has a different meaning than killing, in scripture) can be Good, so can raping, Stealing, Adultery, Homosexuality, Blasphemy, … You can even interpret a passage to mean that your wife must make you pizza every Tuesday night. The issue is that most people do not want to know the truth of what God says and means, or that there isn’t a single interpretation that accurately conveys the meaning of each individual passage (Unless noted elsewhere in scripture.) the reason why people, and belief groups are unwilling to do this is so that they can use the scripture to support whatever they believe to be true and so that they can refute all opposing beliefs. Instead of the truth of the meaning, and altering our beliefs to fit, most prefer to hold to their beliefs, and then look for passages that they can make mean what they want to believe. And yes, getting to the truth is far more “restrictive” then making it up as we go.

Let’s see if I can get some real world, “English” examples going. For example: “He kicked the bucket.”, verses, “He kicked the cat.”? Both bring a picture or an idea into your head. Both of them are based on the “Most common meaning”, of these phrases today. And yes, “cats”, and “buckets”, are completely different. Question: When you read, he kicked the cat, did you think of a huge “White Tiger”? No, right? Why not? Well kicking White Tigers is not something people “Normally” do. You pictured a common house cat, right? That’s good, that’s our first rule, whenever possible, use the meaning for words, and phrases that goes along with the most common understanding for those words and phrases.
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After reading your reply three times, I confess, I'm not really sure where you were going with it. In any case, I am pretty much a fundamentalist. I take the Bible at face value, when the Bible says murder, it means murder. It may be a metaphor used to prove a point, but even in that context it is still murder. I wonder if you might have some scriptural examples of this? Or an example of a verse that will convince my wife to make pizza.

I mean what kind of capricious God we he be if he went around changing the rules every so often? Murder is OK for me, but not for you. Child molesting was OK in the 14th century but not in the 15th century? Homosexuality wasn't OK in the 1700's, but it's OK now. Really? How do we know which parts of the Bible still apply and which parts don't?
I suppose if there's a part of the Bible I don't like, I could probably get a few people to agree with me and we could write our own Bible and toss that part out. (Hmmm.. that sounds familiar).

All I'm saying is God doesn't change. When God changes something (like from the Old Testament to the New Testament) The Bible spells it out pretty clearly. I think saying anything else has changed is probably wishful thinking more than scripture.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Is it possible that the gifts are/were "in part" until we are/were able to fully walk in the Spirit and perfected authority of the master?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[brodav9]

if we look at 1Cor. 13:8 there must be no more knowledge. Just like saying tongues shall cease. And all prophesy has failed? That would leave us with no knowledge, no tongues, and no prophesy. It is evident that there is a point being made about all 3 for they are in the same context.

If we used the idea that it is impossible to be perfect, 13:9 the word know is short form of the preceding word knowledge evidenced by the prophesies shortened to prophesy.

I may have you confused, will explain. it is difficult but clear that he is dealing with the things that can fail, but love cannot. He is not saying tongues will cease , but that they can fail. love cannot. Being this is after the cross we can't say that which is perfect has come.

v.12 is trying to help us understand that all the reason for tongues, prophesy, knowledge are for the purpose of getting God's revealing to us on a smaller portion.
the only wealness in these things is we will only know in part and not all that is perfect. I have had mysteries revealed to me but I don't know all mysteries. That is in part , but one day when Jesus who is perfect shall return and we will be with him who is perfect, All will be clear and he will cause us to know more and more.

tongues according to Rom.8: shows we are weak and need the help of God---the Holy Spirit. When we are with Jesus and all of the God head in heaven we won't need that help but he will communicate all things perfectly to us.

Paul said I speak in tongues more than you all, he must have not put it as last in accord with it's value. 1Cor. 14:18 w/ 1Cor. 12:10.

the use of divers ---many--- kinds of tongues allows one to sing, pray, worship, minister in tongues.

1Cor. 14:2 we also minister to God and speak mysteries.

We must beware of the ministers who speak in tongues and interpret. It is the duty of the body members to discern if what that person is saying lines up with the word. Sometimes we can pray for them sometimes God may have us seperate.

Many people think a person infallible , one example is when a minister says it is okay to prophesy and make mistakes. If one is truly prophesying by the Spirit God speaking in them doesn't make mistakes. Those who err may be new or weak members, so we must pray and stay in tune with the Spirit to have wisdom on how to act concerning them. Many things to learn so we must be prayerful.

My testimony is that after operating in all the gifts of the Spirit, they all are for today.

 

[christbased]

Amen, jiggyfly:

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Christ's Serf

Hi Christserf, I really apologize for interupting into this bible study. Forgive me.

Mar 16:17 "In my name shall they cast out devils"
This passage is perfectly true. How does one go about casting a demon out of themselves? I have done it many times, it goes, it goes away, but a few days later returns.... and it sucks.

Again, sorry for interupting our Body of Christ,... but that is ok. I know I am in the right place, loved, blessed, forgiven, amongst my friends in Christ. Much love

p.s. Personally, I find the Greatest Power, is in ALLOWING the Holy Spirit directly into you, it's kind of an invite. That seems to have the most amazing power and helps me directly fight this thing! It's purely spiritual, nothing more, nothing less, just is.