Holy Spirit

[MavMin]

True enough fruits are to be monitored but as we saw in Matt 7 they are not a 100% litmus test without major discernent as the devil can duplicate many things and also his ministers can manifest themselves as angels of light.

Fruits have their root in doctrine. What a man believes normally manifests itself to varying degrees. Thus this current trend of abandoning doctrine is not a fruit of God's Spirit when the Scripture is replete with injunctions to teach sound doctrine and to avoid those who do not.

A lad south of me happily declares that he doesn't teach doctrine because doctrine divides. Well, he just proved he has no clue because the word doctrine means teaching or instruction so obviously he is teaching or instructing people in something. The question is not if he is but rather what doctrine is he teaching and is it sound? Actually, it isn't because he is just teaching marshmallow fluff not even milk let alone meat. Jokes and nice stories don't feed the bulldog let alone the soul.

So doctrine must be placed along side of fruit to get a good picture of the person or movement. I wear glasses and I need two lenses to have perfect vision. Likewise if I don't use doctrine I won't get a clear picture of the fruit or works. If sound doctrine is abused or denied then no matter how sweet the fruit looks it is spoiled and poisoned like what the lads had in Matt 7.

Another fruit to look at is can a leader have his teaching evaluated and challenged without anger or curses being hurled at the one asking the questions? If you get the old "down go up against God's man", touch not his anointed" or "you're a heretic hunter" then he is at best in the flesh and at worst a heretic. If Paul could challenge Peter's actions and Paul was thrilled that the Bereans were checking his doctrine out then there is no pastor/elder/bishop/pope/grand pooba that can't be questioned or ask to prove his doctrine.

I tell my people all the time to be sure and study not just take Chairman Ron's word for it. I don't give them a little red book to memorize MY wisdom or doctrine. I tell them if they think I am wrong don't bring me feelings, cultural stuff, opinions or just what Dr. Goodwords said on the TV but bring me Scripture in context and we will study the issue together and if I am worng I will thank you for not leaving me in my ignorance.

Bottom line- Look at the doctrine that is the root of the fruit and you will know what type of tree you are really looking at.

 

[Word of Life]

I see by your profile you are a pastor, so I would like to ask you the same question that Rizen has then.

How can you tell that someone has the Spirit of God. Been born again.

You agreed with my previous post to some extent and the reason I am asking this question, is because I work with several Christians, whom have been Christians, and have been going to their various Churches for several years now. Then I became a Christian and I wanted to bring the fellowship into the work-place. Not getting into doctrinal issue, but by just reading some psalms together, maybe praying together, reading some passages from the Bible together or discuss what one has studied the night before, during our lunch break.

I directly said this to my other Christian colleagues, but no one wants to know.

Can you tell me why, people, only like to worship God, on a Sunday and don't glorify Him during the week?

This seems to be the biggest problem in South Africa, people are more in love with the church then the Almighty God.

My thirst for God is daily, not weekly.

 

[MavMin]

There is no 100% assurance as the tares will look like, smell like and act like and even do it better than some true Christians. We can inspect fruit and doctrine but there will always be few that get in under the radar. That is why we still have altar calls in our Church even whe it is all "home folk" and we have fairly good assurance everyone there is saved. At times though I have met professing Christians but my spirit does not witness to their spirit or I don't have real peace or I have questions rise up in me.

Obvious false doctrine and no fruit is a a dead give away if they are not saved but it does get really tough on those who profess salvation. As was pointed out some grow at different levels so you have to look close to see if the fruit is slow growing or rotted. Christians do get hurt or discouraged and sometimes "act out" from pain or a need for attention. A backslider may be that way for a short period or a long time. That is why we are enjoined to be careful so we don't tear up the wheat with the tares. While you can't get every weed I think that some get out of the congregation when you steadily preach sound doctrine. Moses had a mixed congregation and so has every preacher since then at least at one time or another. If you stick to the truth and not kow tow to crazy things that members bring up eventually I believe that you will see an exodus as they go off to fine greener pastures or as John said "they went out from us because they were not of us."

Now, does not mean everyone that leaves your church in a huff is a tare? No, but you have to look at the circumstances for leaving. In most caes, there are no good reasons for leaving a church unless it is a move out of town, a call to ministry or something of that nature. If you just go across town when there are no doctrinal or moral issues in the church then it may well be a move of the flesh not the spirit. If the person leaves in good will it may not be a wise move but it may not be because they are a tare. If they do leave in a nasty way for no reason or for something trivial then the spiritural fertilizer may have gotten too much for them and the tare tore out of there.

Dissension is a sign of trouble somewhere. The brethren are to dwell in unity and as we see in the epistles it is usually a tare or false teaching that starts it. I don't mean minor disagreements but a spirit of consistent criticism or disatisfaction that the person spreads to others and forms little groups that are usually very vocal in bsiness meetings. My tare alarm usually goes off around those kinds of folks.

Yes, I think we pick out the fake or tares if we are prayed up and discerning or else how do we try the spirits? Will we be 100% effective? No some of those angels of light will slip by the best of us but God can sort them out for us if we pray a hedge around us and our ministry.

 

[MavMin]

Now part 2 of your question. Some are not into the 24/7 thing because of their upbringing. Many are taught that religion/faith is a private thing and should be kept to oneself. They may have worked in a place that did not allow expression of faith and never switched over when they were at a different job that was more open. They may fear losing their job or exposing their ignorance of the Bible. Some just fear to pray openly with others because they are of a shy nature. Some were probably taught by word or action that what you want to do cheapens the worship experience and that we must be in some building with stained glass not just at a lunch table todo such things.

Find out what denomination or sect they are a part of and do a little study on the Net about their doctrine and if possible their practices and you may see what their hesitance comes from.

Tradition is a hard thing to break. I was raised sort of kinda a Methodist and my wife a sort of kinda Lutheran. When we were saved I had difficulty getting baptized because I thought I had that done when I was little. Finally God asked me what I owed the Methodists since I had not gotten saved there so I submitted to baptism and then later as I studied I realized that what I had as a child was only a ritual but not a biblical baptism.

If these folks have been taught since a child to say grace to yourself, pray in church and before you go to bed then you are going to have a hard time changing them. You might find some verses on prayer showing that all times of day are good and in various positions, standing, kneeling, on your bed. Even using, "Let the redeemed of the Lord say so" might help the fearful. Put one on a slip of paper and give it to them and another one the next day. If they fuss, stop and just pray for them that God might raise them up to be open warriors for Him. Pray that God would keep them from evil and make them to hunger and thirst as you do for Him and His Word. They may be saved and ignorant or undiscipled. Yet, you may find in the doctrinal stance of their church that they may well be religious but lost. In that case, share with joy verses you have found on the asurance of salvation and all that God did for us. Share your testimony. You may find them saying, "I have always gone to church, but I never asked to be saved. I thought my baptism, confirmation or something else did that for me." Then you know you have a lost fish that needs to be brought into the boat.

I hope this is some help for you and God will give you folks to read and pray with soon. Better yet, new babes in Christ!

 

[rossj.anderson]

As far as I'm concerned,if you don't believe it than you don't believe the Bible.

 

[MavMin]

Or you are just ignorant because you haven't had proper teaching. Some folks only get their Bible training via 5 minute devotionals at breakfast or the new pastor is telling them things that aren't true. There are various reasons that is why you ahve to work one on one with people as there is no one size fits all answer. There are some blanket answers taht will cover a lot of people but there are always a few foots whose feet will stick out of the blanket.

 

[Word of Life]

Thank you for your replies MavMin, it has given much too think about and to ponder over, and to do some further studies on.

I do feel, people are shy to talk about the Gospel in a public place and I think the reason for that is, and from my own experience, as one get's such hostile response back. I tried, and of course without much success, but the scripture's which always comes to my mind, are these one.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I must not fear what the world can do to me, the holy spirit is far much greater.

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Yes, some prayer time is private, which is between God and I, but there are other prayers, which one can pray together as a group, like praying for the lost, praying for some who may be sick etc.

And I agree, that we all want that special time alone with God, both my husband and I do exactly that, he has his prayer time and I have mine and it's done in private, each alone with God. I think the reason for that is, I know what hinders me, and I know my short-comings and at this stage and I expect most may think like this, I don't know, we are a bit ashamed of some of a sinful ways and what we struggle with. I speak for myself in that respect and not for others. The temptations are there, but the holy spirit helps and guides us away, from it. But sometimes it can be a battle and struggle.

A daily walk with our Father and our Lord Jesus and being born again in spirit, is most important. One cannot do this alone, but with God everything is possible.

I think also, most are carnal Christians and not spiritual Christians. Now my husband knows of this, because he was a carnal Christian, and it was only last year, he was born in spirit.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Circumcision of the heart is most important. One cannot be a Christian and still be the same and do the same, as what one did before. The old must go, as we are new creatures now. Old and new wine, cannot be together, one needs to get rid of the old wine. One can go through all the outward rituals of the church, but if one doesn't allow God to change us within and circumcise our hard hearts, than all that outward rules and rituals, which was done, was done in vain. Jesus said so himself, one washes the outside of a cup, but on the inside, is nothing but wickedness. This can be a painful process, and can take time. But with God with us, who can be against us.

After being cleaned on the inside, one will start to see, the fruits of God’s spirit in that person. It's only Spirit of God, which can change a person.

God bless you.

 

[rizen1]

Or you are just ignorant because you haven't had proper teaching

Name calling, robs the great message that follows.

 

[rossj.anderson]

Or you are just ignorant because you haven't had proper teaching. Some folks only get their Bible training via 5 minute devotionals at breakfast or the new pastor is telling them things that aren't true. There are various reasons that is why you ahve to work one on one with people as there is no one size fits all answer. There are some blanket answers taht will cover a lot of people but there are always a few foots whose feet will stick out of the blanket.

Dear Maverick,
I take your post was intended for me which I find very insulting.I have taught the Word of God most likely more years than what your age is.
You will notice that I said in my opinion and that I did not slam anyone.
Since we are Christians let's act like Christians.

 

[jiggyfly]

I am not sure but I don't think Mavmin meant to be insulting. I think when he used the word "ignorant" he meant it as uninformed or just lacking knowledge.

 

[rizen1]

I understand what you're saying Jiggyfly.

Accept my apology brother Mav if that was your intention, the word ignorant comes off strong ,and can touch the sensative nerve in others.

Maybe we can use the Synonym: simple

 

[jiggyfly]

When we are saved we are baptized into Christ and into the Spirit at the same time and then we do the ordinance of baptism in obedience and as an outward sign of what happened on the inside.

Please see my message on tongues on SermonCentral since I can't attach a file or post a link.

1. Some of it is merely emotional.
2. Some of it is a taught response.
3. Some of it is a vain repetition.
4. Some of it is demonic.
5. Much of it is disorderly or indecent.
6. Much of it lacks interpretation and thus unbiblical.
7. Many churches that claim to have the gift hold to other heretical doctrines.
8. If it is taught as a sign of salvation or special holiness it is unbiblical.
9. If it is anything but a human language it is unbiblical.
10. If the person loses control of himself it is unbiblical.

I was going back over this thread and got to this response and notice something here that I hadn't noticed before. there is plenty of what isn't speaking in tongues and absolutely none of what is speaking in tongues. I wonder why??? I have used this example in the past, the U.S. Treasury department trains it's agents to recognize counterfeits by studying and becoming very familiar with the real thing. They become so familiar with the real cuurency that when a counterfeit comes along they recognize it right off. I think the same applies here as well. If you don't know most definetly what is then you shouldn't be teaching what isn't. This is carnal and very useless instruction, plain and simple.

 

[Truedawn]

I have found this thread to be interesting. I could spend so much time on Talk Jesus just trying to read all the topics. I am glad for Talk Jesus.

 

[51_5_16-18]

I beleive it is possible to speak in toungue. With God all things are possible. but the bible also tells us to be careful of false profits and people who do miraculouse things but don't preach the ways of Jessu. I also agree with one of the other people that we each have out own gifts. That we don't all have to speak in toungues or have some "spechial" gift. All of the talents/ gifts God gives us are spechial and a needed part of the famil/ body of God. Wheather it is teaching, preaching, encouraging or whatever it is your good at. Just make sure you are doing it for God

 

[pebosworth]

I believe that the gift of tongues is not limited to certain Christians, but I also believe it is not something that can be practised. If you really desire it then pray for it, but nobody practised it in the Bible, it is something that just happened even without prayer for it. It is usually accompanied with baptism of the Holy Spirit, but evidence has shown this not to always be the case. It is possible though for anyone to speak in tongues for sure!

 

[Pentecostal]

Being Pentecostal I certainly believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost BUTGodsd word does NOT teach that the initial evidence of the proof of that Baptism is speaking in tongues.

Acts 1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The initial 'Proof' is the desire in the heart of the individual to witness to others about Jesus.

Speaking in tongues is a benefit which is an additional gift from God within the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

And for the individual who said in their post that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost wasn't for all Christians: That is an incorrect assumption on your part: Luke 11:13: If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

God is no respector of persons, his gifts are all available for anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, all one has to do is ask for the gift in faith, nothing doubting and he shall have whatsoever he has asked for.

(Mark 11:22-24)

 

[Stylez4Christ]

I have read someone here believed that Satanist can speak in tongues, which I meant people who are Satanist that speak in tongues right front of me which they seem very strange... There speaking in tongues sound very different and it sound very creepy may give a panic attack lol. Believed me I know, I believed Satan can do copy cating to what the Holy spirit dose but you will know the different if you have the spirit of discernments which is one of the gift of the spirit.

There are people that are not believer that will try to test God or doing it fake or just making fun of it. That is all. The end, just simple if you have deal with different people like I have deal with something with this particular gift from the holy spirit or may not be from the holy spirit. If God heal, then Satan can perform it also as the bible explain. But you’ll will know the different from this light gray color which is Satan coming as the angel of light, or from this white pure light which is God…

But yes i believed in speaking in tongues because also do too

If your against it then thats on you, I heard testiomony about people having tour to what hell is, there are preacher and pastor are sent down there because being against of speaking in tongues and so on. So be careful to the one who are against the gift of the holy spirit such as speaking in tongues and so forth...:secret: :shock:

 

[Richie]

Do You believe being baptised by the Holy Spirit and speaking in tounges?

Yes, I do believe, but we need to be careful with the gifts the Holy Spirit gives us because, the gifts can be misused by us.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is not just limited to the gifts He gives us. It is a lot lot more.

God bless you.

 

[Bw4tkn]

Speaking in in your Prayer language

Hey every one. When reading thru the book of Acts the disciples tell eachother to pray for new converts with laying on of hands and pray that they are filled with the Spirit and the evidence was speaking in tongues. So base your beliefs on what scripture says. Right?
If it is in the Word I believe!

 

[Coconut]

There are some blanket answers that will cover a lot of people but there are always a few foots whose feet will stick out of the blanket.

I had to grin! I love this observation!

...carry on ...:agree: