Holy Spirit

[Ignis_et_Lux]

Honestly, I don't know if I do believe in it or not. I would say I'm open minded. I don't feel personally as though it's required i.e. that you are a bad Christian if you've never spoken in tongues (I've encountered people like that). I myself have never experienced it, nor have I witnessed it in person.

 

[EphremHagos]

Do You believe being baptised by the Holy Spirit and speaking in tounges?

I believe in being baptized with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as strictly defined in the terms of the Scriptures which are completely different from their conventional usages today.

Specifically, the source of the Spirit is Jesus' pierced side from which poured out "the blood and the water" signifying the first and the last, perfect and diacritical death; and the Holy Spirit for our baptism, respectively, on which our knowledge of Jesus Christ and worship in Spirit and truth are exclusively based. (John 19: 30-37)

Significantly, the subject of speaking in tongues is nothing more or less than "the great things that God has done" in Christ's death on the cross communicated in people's own languages. (Acts 2)

 

[Stan53]

Speaking in tongues, as described in the Bible, is ALWAYS shown as the evidence that people have received the Holy Spirit. Jesus prophesied it so I accept it.

 

[EphremHagos]

"The evidence" on the specific work of the Holy Spirit, as admittedly taught and practised by Jesus himself, is now lost in Christian tradition; and, therefore, never talked about.

The counterfeiting and the misuse of the Holy Spirit including speaking in tongues, which began in Paul's day, are now full-blown in Christian circles. (2 Cor. 11: 1-15)

 

[EphremHagos]

Please do not rush into it. You will know the whole truth about the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues only if you study the Scriptures thoroughly and prayerfully with the purpose of gaining firsthand knowledge of Jesus Christ. Incidentally, the Spirit will never speak on his own authority as widely acknowledged today. (John 16: 5-15)

God bless you.

 

[Stan53]

Please do not rush into it. You will know the whole truth about the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues only if you study the Scriptures thoroughly and prayerfully with the purpose of gaining firsthand knowledge of Jesus Christ. Incidentally, the Spirit will never speak on his own authority as widely acknowledged today. (John 16: 5-15)

God bless you.

I'm not sure what you mean here, as the Holy Spirit IS God so He does speak on His authority. We also as the users of these gifts, have complete control over them. 1Cor 14:32; The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

 

[EphremHagos]

Scriptures and theology make dangerous cocktail. And one will surely lose one's way (like Simon Peter) with more than one teacher, a.k.a., Jesus Christ. (Matt. 17: 1-8)

Jesus says altruistically and in figures of speech, the following:

"When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all truth. He will not speak on his own authority, but he will of what he hears, and will tell you of things to come. He will give me glory, because he will take what I say and tell to you."

(John 16: 13-14; and vv. 25-26 on the little acknowledged use of figures of speech "about the Father")

Lastly, "complete control" over the gifts of proclaiming God's message is both a contradiction and an over-statement not found in 1 Cor. 14:32.

 

[Stan53]

Scriptures and theology make dangerous cocktail. And one will surely lose one's way (like Simon Peter) with more than one teacher, a.k.a., Jesus Christ. (Matt. 17: 1-8)

Jesus says altruistically and in figures of speech, the following:

"When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all truth. He will not speak on his own authority, but he will of what he hears, and will tell you of things to come. He will give me glory, because he will take what I say and tell to you."

(John 16: 13-14; and vv. 25-26 on the little acknowledged use of figures of speech "about the Father")

Lastly, "complete control" over the gifts of proclaiming God's message is both a contradiction and an over-statement not found in 1 Cor. 14:32.

Now I'm even more confused. What is your theology based on? Are you one of those that ONLY believe the Words of Jesus in the Bible?

What Jesus said here is NOT altruistic or a figure of speech, it is truth, as is ALL of the Bible. Please don't do the "mystical" thing OK. Matthew 17 has nothing to do with your opening statement.

John 16 is Jesus speaking to His desciples to foretell His crucification, death and resurrection. Just as the first Advocate, Jesus spoke God's will and Words, the second Advocate also speaks God's Word and will. Jesus didn't speak on His authority either, He spoke on His Father's authority. This is consistant in the Gospels.
Parables were always the way Jesus spoke, which He clearly told the disciples several times, although on two occasions, He did explain the parable to them.
Jesus also said in John 12:49; For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. God controls all things which should not be a surprise to anyone. How He does it is also very clear in scripture.
What 1Cor 14:32 says is clear and as you have not provided anything to refute that scripture I'd have to say your last statement is NOT valid at all.

 

[David777]

The gifts are for the common good of the
Church. Is teaching in Church still taking
place? Is there wisdom in the Church?
Is there knowledge in the Church?

Now read the script that God wrote!

1 Corinthians 12

Concerning Spiritual Gifts

1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.

2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.

3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.

5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.

6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[EphremHagos]

I do not have any theology whatsoever! Everything I know is learnt from the Holy Bible (as text-book) and from Jesus Christ (as my personal Teacher), after powerfully revealing himself to me in a way that I can certify from the Scriptures and also grow in his grace and knowledge. I know the way to witness about.

Even so, I am not one of those who only believe the words of Jesus in the Bible. I have also learnt to make the difference between his verbal lesser claims and his more conclusive and sustainable works which include baptism with the Holy Spirit at his death on the cross. I have also learnt that Jesus is independent of man's testimony. (John 5: 31-36)

The use of altruistic language is exactly how God speaks verbally about himself. There is none, whatsoever, who is more "gentle and humble in spirit" than Jesus (Matt. 11:29; Phil. 2: 5-11). Jesus himself said that he used "figures of speech" about the Father (John 16: 25-26). The consequences of the inevitable use of plain language by Jesus is are groundbreaking for a new order of worship! (Ibid, 16: 5-15)

That is why Jesus is, in principle and practice: "the way, the truth and the life", not by mere claim but by meritorious work of absolute Authority over death and life demonstrable in his self-revelation on the cross according to the Scripturtes and also verifiable by personal experience subject to a radical change in our way of thinking. (John 14:6, 18-21; 19: 30-37)

​

 

[Stan53]

I do not have any theology whatsoever! Everything I know is learnt from the Holy Bible (as text-book) and from Jesus Christ (as my personal Teacher), after powerfully revealing himself to me in a way that I can certify from the Scriptures and also grow in his grace and knowledge. I know the way to witness about. ​

Of course you have a theology...the word is Greek and means the study of God. The Bible is NOT just a text book. It is the inspired Word of God, given to ALL men. Let me also clarify that it is NOT Jesus that teaches us. John 14:26;

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
It is always alarming when people claim to have Jesus as their personal teacher. The only time that happened, was in the Gospels.

Even so, I am not one of those who only believe the words of Jesus in the Bible. I have also learnt to make the difference between his verbal lesser claims and his more conclusive and sustainable works which include baptism with the Holy Spirit at his death on the cross. I have also learnt that Jesus is independent of man's testimony. (John 5: 31-36)

Just exactly who did Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit when he died on the cross? It seems to me English may not be your mother tongue so I give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to explain this statement. Jesus did NOT say He was independant of man's testimony, He said He did not 'accept' it. Jesus was secure in who He was and in His own being, He did NOT need outward support or proof of who He was. John was appointed by God for a reason, to direct men to Jesus as the true Messiah. Jesus didn't need John's testimony to believe and know who He was Himself.

The use of altruistic language is exactly how God speaks verbally about himself. There is none, whatsoever, who is more "gentle and humble in spirit" than Jesus (Matt. 11:29; Phil. 2: 5-11). Jesus himself said that he used "figures of speech" about the Father (John 16: 25-26). The consequences of the inevitable use of plain language by Jesus is are groundbreaking for a new order of worship! (Ibid, 16: 5-15)

Again, 'altruistic' connotes limited dimension when applied to Jesus. He is God and is ALL things. More than altruistic, which is a single limited concept. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. John 14:6. Jesus said he speaks in parables. NOT the same as figures of speech. Matthew 13:10-11 & 35.

You will notice however that In John, there are no parables. So even though Jesus said He spoke in 'veiled' language, John did not record any. They are all recorded in the 'synoptic' gospels.

I don't know what Ibid 16:5-15 is so I have no idea what this "groundbreaking for a new order of worship!" you speak about is.

That is why Jesus is, in principle and practice: "the way, the truth and the life", not by mere claim but by meritorious work of absolute Authority over death and life demonstrable in his self-revelation on the cross according to the Scripturtes and also verifiable by personal experience subject to a radical change in our way of thinking. (John 14:6, 18-21; 19: 30-37

Yes of course Jesus did not merely claim. He spoke the truth. I really don't understand what you mean by self revelation?​

​

 

[EphremHagos]

[/I]
Of course you have a theology...the word is Greek and means the study of God. The Bible is NOT just a text book. It is the inspired Word of God, given to ALL men. Let me also clarify that it is NOT Jesus that teaches us. John 14:26;

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
It is always alarming when people claim to have Jesus as their personal teacher. The only time that happened, was in the Gospels.
God forbid that I ever have any theology, a.k.a., “the knowledge of what is good and what is bad”: a dangerous cocktail of the Scriptures, man’s self-reliant knowledge and death as made known from the very beginning.
Under the terms and seal of the “new covenant”, the Scriptures themselves do not claim to make up together more than a reliable road map directly to God, to whom they yield final authority in all matters of faith, teaching and worship. Their composition and definition also varied over time. This is fully acknowledged by the Apostles.





[/I]Just exactly who did Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit when he died on the cross? It seems to me English may not be your mother tongue so I give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to explain this statement. Jesus did NOT say He was independant of man's testimony, He said He did not 'accept' it. Jesus was secure in who He was and in His own being, He did NOT need outward support or proof of who He was. John was appointed by God for a reason, to direct men to Jesus as the true Messiah. Jesus didn't need John's testimony to believe and know who He was Himself.
Differences in competence in language are manageable. A much more serious and increasing difference to worry about is the one between haves and have-nots of the given “knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven”, a.k.a., the knowledge of Jesus Christ, for which the promised baptism with the Holy Spirit for all, with a specific maturity date, is mandatory although abandoned by Christianity today which itself is being abandoned. (Matt. 13: 11-12; John 3: 1-16)
Otherwise, Nicodemus et al. took Jesus at his word to be the first to be officially baptized and transformed (Ibid, 19: 25-42). The time has not expired.






[/I]Again, 'altruistic' connotes limited dimension when applied to Jesus. He is God and is ALL things. More than altruistic, which is a single limited concept. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. John 14:6. Jesus said he speaks in parables. NOT the same as figures of speech. Matthew 13:10-11 & 35.

You will notice however that In John, there are no parables. So even though Jesus said He spoke in 'veiled' language, John did not record any. They are all recorded in the 'synoptic' gospels.

I don't know what Ibid 16:5-15 is so I have no idea what this "groundbreaking for a new order of worship!" you speak about is.






Yes of course Jesus did not merely claim. He spoke the truth. I really don't understand what you mean by self revelation? [/INDENT][/COLOR]

​

The real proof of “the way, the truth and the life” is not in the claim but in Jesus’ typical self-revelation in his death on the cross just as precedented and promised in the Scriptures and finally delivered in the greatest vision of all to the whole world (John 14: 6, 18-21; 19: 30-37). By the grace of God, I have seen it; and it makes all the difference!

The “ground breaking new order of worship” refers to the tearing of the Temple curtain into two from top to bottom, i.e., the burning passion of Jesus Christ, signifying worship of a personally knowable God “as he really is” in Spirit and truth, a.k.a., “the opening of a new way, a living way into the Most Holy Place by means of the death of Jesus”. (John 2: 13-17; 4: 21-26; Matt. 27: 50-51; Heb. 10: 19-25)

Christ’s self-revelation refers to his visibly going back to the place where he was before, a.k.a., glory!

 

[Stan53]

The real proof of “the way, the truth and the life” is not in the claim but in Jesus’ typical self-revelation in his death on the cross just as precedented and promised in the Scriptures and finally delivered in the greatest vision of all to the whole world (John 14: 6, 18-21; 19: 30-37). By the grace of God, I have seen it; and it makes all the difference!

The “ground breaking new order of worship” refers to the tearing of the Temple curtain into two from top to bottom, i.e., the burning passion of Jesus Christ, signifying worship of a personally knowable God “as he really is” in Spirit and truth, a.k.a., “the opening of a new way, a living way into the Most Holy Place by means of the death of Jesus”. (John 2: 13-17; 4: 21-26; Matt. 27: 50-51; Heb. 10: 19-25)

Christ’s self-revelation refers to his visibly going back to the place where he was before, a.k.a., glory!

I guess it's just the way you speak English, but I find your vernacular odd.
Are you telling us you actually SAW Christ's crucifiction?

Nothing you are saying here is NEW as far as we are concerned. It is what the Good News has been since the time Jesus died and rose from the dead.

 

[EphremHagos]

You are absolutely correct to find my vernacular odd. This is confirmed by Paul who wrote, “we do not speak in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit or with words given by the Spirit.” (1 Cor. 2:13 suffixed with an alternate rendering)

Nothing could be odder than God’s personal self-revelation in Christ's death on the cross qualified by the following two witnesses.

1.“Call to me, and I will answer you; I will tell you wonderful and marvelous things that you know nothing about.” (Jer. 33:33)
2.“What no one ever saw or heard, what no one ever thought could happen is the very thing God prepared for those who love him.” (1 Cor. 1:9)

We cannot have the Spirit without seeing the source in the kind of death Christ suffered and was glorified. This is the stuff of NT perpetual vision, a.k.a., “the Good News from the glorious and blessed God”.


God bless you!

P.S. "Crucifiction" (a typo) is a popular Muslim vocabulary.

I guess it's just the way you speak English, but I find your vernacular odd.
Are you telling us you actually SAW Christ's crucifiction?

Nothing you are saying here is NEW as far as we are concerned. It is what the Good News has been since the time Jesus died and rose from the dead.

 

[Stan53]

You are absolutely correct to find my vernacular odd. This is confirmed by Paul who wrote, “we do not speak in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit or with words given by the Spirit.” (1 Cor. 2:13 suffixed with an alternate rendering)

Nothing could be odder than God’s personal self-revelation in Christ's death on the cross qualified by the following two witnesses.

1.“Call to me, and I will answer you; I will tell you wonderful and marvelous things that you know nothing about.” (Jer. 33:33)
2.“What no one ever saw or heard, what no one ever thought could happen is the very thing God prepared for those who love him.” (1 Cor. 1:9)

We cannot have the Spirit without seeing the source in the kind of death Christ suffered and was glorified. This is the stuff of NT perpetual vision, a.k.a., “the Good News from the glorious and blessed God”.


God bless you!

P.S. "Crucifiction" (a typo) is a popular Muslim vocabulary.

No, I meant what I said...I find YOUR vernacular odd. Not the Bible or how the Spirit talks. Words are what make a vernacular. I more than understand Jesus and Paul, and his conclusion in 1Cor 2:13; And we speak about these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. MOUNCE(without any added words like you have done)

God's written Word is clear my friend. It is YOU who are not. Instead of trying to, as I said before, SOUND mystical, try making sense or speaking straight forward.

Crucifixion is what happened to Jesus. It may be a word in the Muslim vocabulary but it is not a Muslim concept. It originated with the Romans.
Galatians 2:19-20; I have been crucified with Christ; and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
I'm sensing you have some strong feelings against Muslims. Are you part of the Orthodox church in Ethiopia?

 

[EphremHagos]

Here is where I stand.

Without the "deep secret truth" revealed in the Scriptures, in "the kind of death Jesus suffered" on the cross, (however it is described) we all are in the territory of "a different Jesus, a spirit and a gospel completely different from the Spirit and the gospel received" from the Apostles, a.k.a., a clever counterfeit in which "Satan, can disguise himself to look like the angel of light". (2 Cor. 11: 1-15)

No, I meant what I said...I find YOUR vernacular odd. Not the Bible or how the Spirit talks. Words are what make a vernacular. I more than understand Jesus and Paul, and his conclusion in 1Cor 2:13; And we speak about these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. MOUNCE(without any added words like you have done)

God's written Word is clear my friend. It is YOU who are not. Instead of trying to, as I said before, SOUND mystical, try making sense or speaking straight forward.

Crucifixion is what happened to Jesus. It may be a word in the Muslim vocabulary but it is not a Muslim concept. It originated with the Romans.
Galatians 2:19-20; I have been crucified with Christ;and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
I'm sensing you have some strong feelings against Muslims. Are you part of the Orthodox church in Ethiopia?

 

[Stan53]

Here is where I stand.

Without the "deep secret truth" revealed in the Scriptures, in "the kind of death Jesus suffered" on the cross, (however it is described) we all are in the territory of "a different Jesus, a spirit and a gospel completely different from the Spirit and the gospel received" from the Apostles, a.k.a., a clever counterfeit in which "Satan, can disguise himself to look like the angel of light". (2 Cor 11:1-15)

Well apparently you just want to maintain your 'mystical' rep so I won't bother going on about this with you. Enjoy your "Magical Mystery Tour"

 

[EphremHagos]

Going the extra mile, with the Scriptures, is my burden; the "real proof" God's in his self-revelation! Blessings.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

Jesus clearly taught that baptism of Holy Spirit is essential in John 3:5. Although the gift of tongues was only for 1st century Christians.

 

[Stan53]

Jesus clearly taught that baptism of Holy Spirit is essential in John 3:5. Although the gift of tongues was only for 1st century Christians.

This statement will require some scriptural support on your part. Nothing about the Holy Spirit was confined or restricted to the 1st century.