How is a man saved??

[Samson2020]

As Jesus once said, “I can of my own self do nothing” John 5:30

I say, “I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me”

How can I do all things when I can do nothing?

Because it is Jesus in me who is doing the works.

That’s not an answer that’s just deflecting the question.
You say you have the Holy Spirit but have no evidence to testify of such?
He always confirms His own so that they will know
And have a testimony.

 

[Charlie24]

Dude your conversing with a man who was born of the spirit over 20 yrs ago. Who has cast out the unclean, laid his hands on the sick and they recovered of heart failure and inoperable cancer. I speak in tongues whenever I desire. I have been sent by the Lord to speak to others. So yes I know His voice. I wa even scolded by Hum using the vocal cords of my wife while she was asleep. I know who I am in Him for he has confirmed it to me.

I’m not a target for salvation as I have already received it.

I’m not really sure what your attempting to gain by repeated attempts to push your ideology on me but like the Lord said My sheep know My voice and another they will not follow.

Ok, I can see that you're not going to man-up on your view of salvation being different than that of Paul's.

 

[complete]

Subject Heading:- How is a man saved?

'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

 

[Curtis]

That’s not an answer that’s just deflecting the question.
You say you have the Holy Spirit but have no evidence to testify of such?
He always confirms His own so that they will know
And have a testimony.

Is the evidence of speaking in tongues not enough? How about the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God? Romans 8:16 Or who ever does not have the Spirit of God he is none of his….

 

[Samson2020]

Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

One last point before this topic drops off the radar.

It has been my position that there is nothing that we can do to deserve being an elect.
The other position is that through ones own ACCEPTANCE of salvation, they have received it.

So which position is correct?

Since Jesus tells us "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." It would seem the first position is correct. Then we have James in
Jas 1:18 stating "Of His own will begat He us, through the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.

Who did the begatting? God or your choosing of Jesus? According to the verse it was Gods doing, not yours.

This next statement is for those who really are the elect of God and it comes from Rom 11 in the form of a warning.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part has happened to
Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches take heed, lest He also spare not thee.

In Pauls warning he is stating that do not be wise in your own conceits (conceited) because you have been grafted in (elected of God) as if you actually have anything
to brag about, because both you and those that do not believe at this time are no different. And that since there is no difference between you and them,
conceit may cause you to be broken back off the root.
Now what deception is he talking about that would cause one to be conceited?
None other than I accepted therefore I etc........... This is you establishing your own righteousness and therefore God owes you because of what you did,
accept the gift.
But what does Paul say about this, you have nothing to boast about because you were elected to believe. You like them were blinded and hard hearted
but thorough Gods mercy He softened your heart and took your blinders off so that you could understand the gospel of your salvation and believe.
That is the righteousness of God we are told to seek first.

Now the Devil knows the words of the book better than any of us so how might he deceive you concerning this matter? twist it 180 degrees to make it
all about your acceptance as opposed to your being elected by the Father. Would this be a reason of conceit, and possible breaking you off the root?
You decide. It is the Devils job to keep us from attaining unto life and small but lethal deceptions are everywhere. He has had a 2000 plus yr head start.

If you do not stand on the righteousness that was imputed to you, you risk being broken off through conceit.

 

[Samson2020]

2 Th 2:3............except there come a falling away first....................

Is it possible that this is one reason?

 

[complete]

One last point before this topic drops off the radar.​

​

It has been my position that there is nothing that we can do to deserve being an elect.​

The other position is that through ones own ACCEPTANCE of salvation, they have received it.​

​

So which position is correct?​

​

Since Jesus tells us "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." It would seem the first position is correct.​

'Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you,
and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My Name,
He may give it you.;
(Joh 15:16)

Hello @Samson2020,

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke the words (above) that you refer to, to His disciples, who were called for that purpose, and were the Lord's Apostles or sent ones. It applies specifically to them, and not to you and I.

Then we have James in​

Jas 1:18 stating "Of His own will begat He us, through the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.​

​

Who did the begatting? God or your choosing of Jesus? According to the verse it was Gods doing, not yours.​

* James is one of the believing remnant of Israel, so yes he was part of an election from an election. For Israel itself is also elect of God and precious.

This next statement is for those who really are the elect of God and it comes from Rom 11 in the form of a warning.​

​

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part has happened to​

Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.​

* Paul spoke these words to those Gentile believers during the Acts period, who had, by God's grace, been grafted into Israel's Olive tree.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches take heed, lest He also spare not thee.​

* Gentiles (or wild olive branches) were grafted into Israel's Olive Tree, which represents the nation of Israel and it's national privileges, in order to provoke Israel to jealousy, and thereby bring new life to an ailing tree. On that basis, if they themselves failed to believe, they too would lose their place in the Olive Tree of Israel.

In Pauls warning he is stating that do not be wise in your own conceits (conceited) because you have been grafted in (elected of God) as if you actually have anything​

to brag about, because both you and those that do not believe at this time are no different. And that since there is no difference between you and them,​

conceit may cause you to be broken back off the root.​

Now what deception is he talking about that would cause one to be conceited?​

None other than I accepted therefore I etc........... This is you establishing your own righteousness and therefore God owes you because of what you did,​

accept the gift.​

But what does Paul say about this, you have nothing to boast about because you were elected to believe. You like them were blinded and hard hearted​

but thorough Gods mercy He softened your heart and took your blinders off so that you could understand the gospel of your salvation and believe.​

That is the righteousness of God we are told to seek first.​

* Paul's warning is clear, that the gentiles who had been grafted in should not be conceited, for it was God who had grafted them in for His own purpose, and not of their choosing, and if they failed to continue in the faith, they too would lose their place in the Olive Tree of Israel.

* Forgive me, but you are handling the word of God deceitfully. (2 Corinthians 4:2)

Now the Devil knows the words of the book better than any of us so how might he deceive you concerning this matter? twist it 180 degrees to make it
all about your acceptance as opposed to your being elected by the Father. Would this be a reason of conceit, and possible breaking you off the root?
You decide. It is the Devils job to keep us from attaining unto life and small but lethal deceptions are everywhere. He has had a 2000 plus yr head start.

If you do not stand on the righteousness that was imputed to you, you risk being broken off through conceit.

* In AD70 (at the end of the Acts period), the nation of Israel was scattered among the nations, and ceased to be a nation, so the figure of the Olive Tree that Paul used to illustrate the reason for the inclusion of believing gentiles into the Olive Tree of Israel, ceased to apply.

* The righteousness which is of God by faith is available still for all who will receive it, by believing in the all-sufficiency of the sacrifice of God's own Beloved Son, to save us from sin and it's consequence, that we may receive the gift of God, which is eternal life, according to His amazing grace.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Samson2020]

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke the words (above) that you refer to, to His disciples, who were called for that purpose, and were the Lord's Apostles or sent ones. It applies specifically to them, and not to you and I.

Hows that if you were chosen as Paul to be a disciple. Paul wasn't there to hear that and neither was I but I know I have been chosen and so did He.

 

[Curtis]

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[complete]

Hows that if you were chosen as Paul to be a disciple. Paul wasn't there to hear that and neither was I but I know I have been chosen and so did He.

But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister
and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;'
(Act 26:16)

Hello @Samson2020,

Paul was very much aware of why the Lord had appeared unto him and saved Him, for he was told so by the risen Christ. Whereas, you (presumably) and I heard the word of salvation, and believed it, and thereby were saved by God's grace. We know it because we believe God will do what He says.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Samson2020]

Paul was very much aware of why the Lord had appeared unto him and saved Him, for he was told so by the risen Christ. Whereas, you (presumably) and I heard the word of salvation, and believed it, and thereby were saved by God's grace. We know it because we believe God will do what He says.

Don't really agree with you still on the part of having to hear it directly from Jesus to be a disciple. But rest assured if someone is truly sent then they heard it.
I know who I have heard and who begat me to be a kind of first fruits of His creation. I know who has sent me at times to proclaim what He was fixing to do
for an individual, similar to Ananias with Pauls sight. I know who it is that is day by day making me a better son than I was yesterday.
You can presume all you want but I don't just believe I KNOW.

Your salvation, which is a gift, gave you opportunity to BECOME a son of God. Your not meant to just go to heaven but to have authority, and power when you arrive.
For what?

 

[Samson2020]

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The only thing wrong with this is your interpretation of the furnace of fire.

Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.

Notice that in the time of Jesus there was darkness covering the earth and gross darkness the people. What is any different in that day then when the non elect are
cast into outer darkness?

Isa 31:9 And he shall pass over to his stronghold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the Lord, WHOSE FIRE IS IN ZION, AND HIS FURNACE
IN JERUSALEM.

Oba 1:21 Then saviors shall come to Mt Zion to judge the mountains of Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lords.

Mic 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to
the daughter of Jerusalem.

Daughter of Jerusalem is the first fruits who are given the first dominion along with Jesus. And if you will notice those saviors, have come to Mt Zion
which is where the fire is, and the furnace is in Jerusalem, and as the daughter is of Jerusalem in them also, So furnace and fire, but not to destroy the spirit
but to perfect by burning away the dross in the furnace of affliction in earthly life(judgement) as they are to become sons as well.
The words that Jesus spoke were spirit and life, and until you actually do understand them as such you will only see death and destruction.

Paul is the teacher of the New Covenant. I would suggest you read all of his letters 2-3 times minimum then come back to what Jesus taught.
The reason is that Jesus taught in riddles so that the people could not understand. It still has the same effect today. The culmination of the New Covenant
is what Paul preaches in somewhat plain non-riddle fashion. Have Pauls work and the HG show you what it really is instead of allowing presumptions
to rule your life. Just because 2 billion people say its Trinity, doesn't make the lie the truth. Just because the same say you have to accept in order to be
saved doesn't make that lie the truth either.

Jesus was a man that became a life giving spirit. 1 Co 15:45 One does not BECOME what one already is. That is to say if He was God in the flesh He
wouldn't need to become a life giving Spirit as God already and always was.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.
Where does your acceptance fit in this verse? It was according to His will that your blinded eyes and hardened heart, were softened and the blinders removed.
Where was your free will when you were blinded and hardened in heart? How was your free will exercised to be born on earth now and be male or female?
It is and always will be an election according to grace and no man can boast as having done anything to deserve it including I accepted. That is boasting
and conceit on the part of the person saying such. And as such risks being broken off the root.
There were men who were going to go buy and sell and get gain, Jesus said to them it would be better to say you will go buy and sell and get gain
IF GOD BE WILLING.
Free will out the window for even their livelyhood was/is controlled by the Father. And if the least of a mans doings are controlled by Him why in the world
would He allow something as important as salvation to be completely up to the individual?

Lies are lies and if you can't recognize one when you see it then the Devil got you right where he wants you. Deceived.

 

[Curtis]

The only thing wrong with this is your interpretation of the furnace of fire

This is not my interpretation it is what Jesus said.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Samson2020]

This is not my interpretation it is what Jesus said.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ok then what is the furnace of fire? And please do consider that His words are Spirit and life, not death and destruction.
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life. Are His words you quote literal or spiritual?
It would seem from your posts you see them as literal, which is from a carnal perspective, as the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit.

 

[Twistie]

How is a man saved?

There seems to be some misunderstanding amongst some of us as this issue keeps coming up in various threads so lets hash it out.

Is it not an election according to grace? Rom 11:5
Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

Ok so whether you want to say that the gift is grace or the faith is the gift or both or that salvation itself, being the end result, is the gift.
This is how a man is saved. Grace bestowed to believe by faith which is also given. So all the above grace, faith, and salvation gifts.
So salvation is as the verse says a gift.
Now is the gift according to anything that a man does or doesn't do?
No for a man is not allowed to boast as verse 9 states it is entirely Gods gift as 8 states.
And as it is a gift from God can it be taken away?
No because the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11:29

How does God decide which human He is going to gift salvation to?
The Bible tells us plainly that it is for those, in this dispensation, for whom He predestined to be saved in it. Rom 8:29-30 Eph 1:5 Eph 1:11
So as the election is according to grace and for those predestinated and has nothing to do with a mans desires or works what could it be called other than a gift?

Can we earn it? NO
Can we ask for it? Sure but unless you were predestinated as the scripture states you'll have to wait until it is your time.
Can we beg for it? Sure, but same answer as above.
What can we do to speed up the election of ourselves? Nothing because it is all in Gods good timing, since it is His gift to you, you will receive it when He gives it
to you.
Can you refuse it, sure but its still yours as He will never repent of giving it to you. You may end up as one of the least of His sons but its still yours.

Are many at this time deceived into thinking they have been born again but are still spiritually dead? Absolutely, this is one of the biggest deceptions I see.
And they are very busy at creating more of the same. Spiritually dead and in name only Christians.

If you see salvation as anything other than a gift that cannot be earned tell us here what your concept of "how a man is saved" is.

For by grace ye are saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift of Most High

Now faith is a substance of things hoped for the evidence of things that are not seen

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word Of Most High so things which are not seen were not made of things which do appear

But without Faith it is Impossible to please Most High for he that COMETH to Most High Must believe that He is and that He is the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him

For Most Holy Loved The world so much That He Gave His Only Begotten Son that so whom ever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal Life

Knowing this that the trying of your faith worketh patience

Even so Faith Without Works is dead

As it is all written...

 

[Curtis]

Ok then what is the furnace of fire? And please do consider that His words are Spirit and life, not death and destruction.
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life. Are His words you quote literal or spiritual?
It would seem from your posts you see them as literal, which is from a carnal perspective, as the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit.

You forget you are not debating me I am not Jesus, he said it not me. Ask him yourself.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Is this real or just made up to you?

 

[Samson2020]

Is this real or just made up to you?

Its spiritual language that only a spiritual person can see the meaning of. It isn't literally a fiery torture. Its a fiery processing with no fire at all as the fire is what is
burning out the impurities in you, to refine and make you white.
We who are going through this now are not being burned, but processed by the same fire. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE.

 

[Samson2020]

Its spiritual language that only a spiritual person can see the meaning of. It isn't literally a fiery torture. Its a fiery processing with no fire at all as the fire is what is
burning out the impurities in you, to refine and make you white.
We who are going through this now are not being burned, but processed by the same fire. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE.

I ran across this in Pauls letter to Timothy and thought I should share it.

1Ti 1:12-14 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; who was
before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And the GRACE of our LORD was exceeding abundant WITH FAITH AND LOVE which is in Christ Jesus.

14-NLT Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He FILLED ME WITH THE FAITH AND LOVE that come from Christ Jesus.

So even Paul agrees that it is Faith that was graced to Him.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe, for there is no difference.
Same thing, the faith is UPON all that believe, and is UNTO all but not necessarily UPON them yet.

 

[B-A-C]

Its spiritual language that only a spiritual person can see the meaning of. It isn't literally a fiery torture. Its a fiery processing with no fire at all as the fire is what is
burning out the impurities in you, to refine and make you white.

One big difference here. The Lake of Fire is the "second" death. You only go there after you are physically dead,.. and you go there forever.
The trails and fires of this current life can burn out the dross, that's true. But only while you are still physically alive.

Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

[Samson2020]

One big difference here. The Lake of Fire is the "second" death. You only go there after you are physically dead,.. and you go there forever.
The trails and fires of this current life can burn out the dross, that's true. But only while you are still physically alive.

Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

OK lets reason together as God says Isa 1:18
God made the world and the universes we see. Science says that they are several million years old. Assume close enough.
Adam was placed on the planet roughly 6,000yrs ago according to the Jews. Also assume close enough. So was God patient with the planet until it was ready to receive Adam? I'd say as the time difference was quite immense.
Given that you are predestined to become a son of God from before the forming of the world, has God lost His patience with us at the end of 6,000yrs?
I would say not hardly for He will have what He wills, and that is sons. They were predestined to be and they will be, the time frame is bigger than
just one TIME, there are multiple times.
He did not go through counting the costs to accomplish His will and only reveal the Mystery of salvation over the last 2,000 yrs to burn up everybody
that that mystery was hidden from over the first 4,000 yrs of mankind. He didn't do it so that He could roast like a marshmallow on a stick those
whom He blinded to the truth.
What is the point of provoking Israel unto jealousy if it only means a fiery eternal torture? That indeed would be pointless. However; we
do know that all Israel shall be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Rom 11:26 The only questions would be how are they
provoked to jealousy? And when do they enter into belief unto becoming a son? Every man in his own order. The gentiles have an order and they
are for the most part first, some Jews are part of the first fruits, Paul, Peter etc.... But if you will look closely at the order you will see this
The first(Israel) is last, and the last (Gentiles) are first. Does that shed any light on Jesus' comment
"But many that are first SHALL BE last ,and the LAST SHALL be first."Matt 19:39
So what was He saying? Most of Israel shall be last to enter into life, and the Gentile nations shall be first to enter into life. He used the word SHALL in both cases. That leaves no doubt for me.

If I were a guessing man you have not been empowered yet to begin the process of becoming a son for you would be able to hear at least some of
what I say.
1 Jo 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God, does not hear us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and
the spirit of error.

1 Ti 4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..........."speaking lies in hypocrisy" is just one aspect of what they do,
2 Ti 4:3-4

We all agree that the time is fast approaching when the door to the first time will be shut. What does the Spirit have to say about the doctrines of
this day? They are not correct, and anything in the majority, well you figure it out as there is only a remnant at this time that knows the truth.