Pre, Mid or Post

[NoHype]

Let me say something else, and it's about your quote in your signature:

"The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

That statement could easily be misconstrued to mean that the Old Testament Books no longer contain anything we as believers on Jesus Christ under the New Covenant need. i.e., wrong ideas that all things written in the Old Testament Books have already been fulfilled today. Well, they have not. Not yet. There is still much ... Bible prophecy written in the Old Testament Books that has yet to come to pass today, and even quite a bit written for after Christ's future thousand years reign and into the new heavens and a new earth timing!

As a matter of fact, there is a section of chapters in the Book of Isaiah that directly parallel the events of the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Revelation through Apostle John. There's even some chapters in Isaiah about God's future new heavens and a new earth timing.

And even greater, a good number of the parables our Lord Jesus gave at His first coming involve the very end of this world and thereafter, and their example of symbolic usage was first given by Him in the Old Testament prophets! Therefore it is vain to only refer back to the Old Testament Scripture just when reading an event being fulfilled in the New Testament Scripture, and then thinking that means to discard all the rest of the Old Testament Scriptures.

 

[DHC]

Hello NoHype.

Eschatology is a rather complex subject and a subject that is laden with inbuilt twists and turns.

Here is what you stated NoHype.

The signs our Lord Jesus was giving to His Apostles (and us) upon the Mount of Olives parallel the Seals of Revelation 6. The final sign He gave in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters was that of His second coming and gathering of His Church. So I do not believe it a coincidence that He gave those 7 signs while upon the Mount of Olives, since Acts 1 and Zech.14 declares that is where He is to return to when He comes. And since He made His Revelation a part of that Olivet Discourse by revealing more detail about those 7 signs for the end, and told Apostle John to write it down and give it to the seven Churches, that means that prophecy definitely is for His Church today.

There was a line that you wrote NoHype that did not seem to fit the discourse that Jesus gave on the Mount
of Olives.

that He gave those 7 signs while upon the Mount of Olives

May I ask what these seven signs are NoHype that Jesus gave to the apostles?

 

[norapture]

SuzanneA keep these scripture in mind .
Luke 17:26-30
When we read this, the Lord is telling us it will be like it was in the days of Noah. But something he makes very clear that the SAME DAY that Noah entered it the ark, the flood came and destroyed them all.
Just like Lot the SAME DAY, Lot went out of Sodom , it rain fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

So the SAME DAY the Church leaves then God will destroy them all the wicked.
Also when the Israelites came out of Egypt the red sea destroyed the Egyptian's , but where was Gods people when the plagues was happing
Amongst the wicked, but was protected from Gods plagues. But yet suffer from Pharaoh.Just like Gods people will have to suffer Satan's wrath during the tribulation.

Most people think the wrath is the tribulation. But you look in the scriptures the wrath of God comes on the last day. And no one can stand in his wrath. Rev.19:11-18 verse 15 wrath. Rev.14:19 wrath
Rev.19:15 again wrath, so you look when he returns that's the day of wrath.


Rev.14-20 this when the earth is reaped.
Matthew 13:37-43. OK look at this is also when the earth is reaped. See Jesus said he that soweth the good seed is the son of man, the field is the world, seed are the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the wicked, the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the End OF THE WORLD, angels are the reapers,
Rev.15:1-8 see verse 8 no man was able to enter in to the temple till after the seven last plagues
Mark 13:26-37 notice verse 37
And what I say unto you I say unto All watch.

 

[norapture]

SuzanneA That was Rev.14: 14-20 when the earth is reaped. I didnt post what verse's I hope you will look all the scriptures up and read them. Don't just read what I wrote, look them up and read them. In the King James version , that why most can't see the truth the words are change in most version's. No offense to the one who get offended. About the bible version.

 

[Chad]

In the King James version , that why most can't see the truth the words are change in most version's.

Nonsense. Be careful what you try to teach others here and anywhere. This is fruitless and not truthful. Don't tell me preachers like Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Derek Prince are preachers who can't see the truth.

 

[NoHype]

Hello NoHype.

Eschatology is a rather complex subject and a subject that is laden with inbuilt twists and turns.

Here is what you stated NoHype.

There was a line that you wrote NoHype that did not seem to fit the discourse that Jesus gave on the Mount
of Olives.

May I ask what these seven signs are NoHype that Jesus gave to the apostles?

God's Word is not... that difficult today for those who discipline theirselves in IT with His help by The Holy Spirit. There is probably no greater time than today when He has opened up His Word to us simply because of the last days that we are now in. So all this fancy eschatology reasoning is just more of the same 'leaven' of men that our Lord Jesus warned about for those who listen to Him.

If you want to discover what those 7 signs for the end our Lord Jesus gave there in His Olivet Discourse, study those Olivet Discourse chapters along with Revelation 6 asking our Heavenly Father and His Son to help you. This is by no means a private teaching. Many learned pastors are aware of that parallel, so do your own research, I'll not do it for you because of your attitude.

 

[NoHype]

SuzanneA keep these scripture in mind .
Luke 17:26-30
When we read this, the Lord is telling us it will be like it was in the days of Noah. But something he makes very clear that the SAME DAY that Noah entered it the ark, the flood came and destroyed them all.
Just like Lot the SAME DAY, Lot went out of Sodom , it rain fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

So the SAME DAY the Church leaves then God will destroy them all the wicked.
Also when the Israelites came out of Egypt the red sea destroyed the Egyptian's , but where was Gods people when the plagues was happing
Amongst the wicked, but was protected from Gods plagues. But yet suffer from Pharaoh.Just like Gods people will have to suffer Satan's wrath during the tribulation.

Most people think the wrath is the tribulation. But you look in the scriptures the wrath of God comes on the last day. And no one can stand in his wrath. Rev.19:11-18 verse 15 wrath. Rev.14:19 wrath
Rev.19:15 again wrath, so you look when he returns that's the day of wrath.


Rev.14-20 this when the earth is reaped.
Matthew 13:37-43. OK look at this is also when the earth is reaped. See Jesus said he that soweth the good seed is the son of man, the field is the world, seed are the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the wicked, the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the End OF THE WORLD, angels are the reapers,
Rev.15:1-8 see verse 8 no man was able to enter in to the temple till after the seven last plagues
Mark 13:26-37 notice verse 37
And what I say unto you I say unto All watch.

You and I finally agree on something.

 

[DHC]

Many learned pastors are aware of that parallel, so do your own research, I'll not do it for you because of your attitude.

Hello NoHype.

Your making the claim NoHype, that Jesus gave the apostles seven signs in regards to the last days.

All I am asking you NoHype, is that you list briefly these seven claims, which should support your
initial claim. The Forum Rules require you to list the seven signs!

If you make a claim then you need to justify that specific claim NoHype.

Anyone who makes a claim on Talk Jesus is required to justify the claim with the appropriate scripture.

FORUM RULES
6. Provide Scripture when making a biblical point

What are the seven signs in the Gospel (Matthew 24) you quoted, NoHype?

 

[NoHype]

Hello NoHype.

Your making the claim NoHype, that Jesus gave the apostles seven signs in regards to the last days.

All I am asking you NoHype, is that you list briefly these seven claims, which should support your
initial claim. The Forum Rules require you to list the seven signs!

If you make a claim then you need to justify that specific claim NoHype.

Anyone who makes a claim on Talk Jesus is required to justify the claim with the appropriate scripture.

What are the seven signs in the Gospel (Matthew 24) you quoted, NoHype?

Cannot you not read?

Mark 13:5-6 - Rev.6:2
Mark 13:7 - Rev.6:4
Mark 13:8 - Rev.6:5-6 and
Mark 13:8 - Rev.6:7-8
Mark 13:9-13 - Rev.6:9-11
Mark 13:14-23 - Rev.6:13
Mark 13:24-27 - Rev.6:14-17

FYI - the Forum Rules do NOT... require me to list those 7 signs, but ONLY the Scripture reference. I gave you more, but I doubt you'll take time to try and understand them. I recognize the ploy a Pre-tribber would have against me on this, simply because I know the Pre-trib school wrongly teaches that our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse is meant ONLY for Jews, which is ridiculous, since Jesus was speaking to His Apostles and disciples upon the Mount of Olives, and not 'unbelieving' Jews.

But I'll offer something more about Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse that He gave for the last day of this world. The event His Apostles asked Him about regarding the destruction of the temple upon the Temple Mount area they were looking at was not about the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy Jesus quoted there from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing temple there in Jerusalem for that prophecy to be fulfilled. None ever fulfilled that prophecy in Jerusalem after Jesus proclaimed that, even to this present day.

But the orthodox Jews, which some here no doubt support by sending funds to, have for years been preparing the temple materials and ritual articles to build another temple in Jerusalem in our times. That will... be required for the 2 Thess.2:4 prophecy to be fulfilled during the tribulation. The destruction of that latter temple in Jerusalem is what He was talking about to His Apostles in the first part of His Olivet Discourse. It is Day of The Lord timing, the day of His second coming and gathering of His Church.

 

[B-A-C]

I recognize the ploy a Pre-tribber would have against me on this, simply because I know the Pre-trib school wrongly teaches that our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse is meant ONLY for Jews, which is ridiculous, since Jesus was speaking to His Apostles and disciples upon the Mount of Olives, and not 'unbelieving' Jews.

No "pre-tribbers" I know of believe this. In fact if anything, Jesus was only speaking to 4 of of the disciples, (Peter, James, John and Andrew).

 

[Chad]

Cannot you not read?

Why should anyone listen to you with this kind of attitude?

Lose your tone, or lose your privilege to be here. Respect the members.

 

[DHC]

I gave you more, but I doubt you'll take time to try and understand them.

Hello NoHype.

Relax NoHype, try not to take any criticism of the eschatology your promoting in a personal way.

You said the following NoHype.

I recognize the ploy a Pre-tribber would have against me on this, simply because I know the Pre-trib school wrongly teaches that our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse is meant ONLY for Jews, which is ridiculous, since Jesus was speaking to His Apostles and disciples upon the Mount of Olives, and not 'unbelieving' Jews.

I do not subscribe to any eschatology NoHype, a post tribulation explanation is probably closer to the mark than a pre-tribulation view.

But I'll offer something more about Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse that He gave for the last day of this world. The event His Apostles asked Him about regarding the destruction of the temple upon the Temple Mount area they were looking at was not about the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy Jesus quoted there from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing temple there in Jerusalem for that prophecy to be fulfilled. None ever fulfilled that prophecy in Jerusalem after Jesus proclaimed that, even to this present day.

Your eschatology is very difficult to sustain NoHype, mainly because you are making claims that the scripture itself may contradict.
You then said the following.

The event His Apostles asked Him about regarding the destruction of the temple upon the Temple Mount area they were looking
at was not about the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.

The Gospel of Luke states that the destruction of the temple did occur in 70 AD, NoHype. This was precisely the answer that
Jesus gave to the apostles question about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Luke 21 (NKJV)
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her
depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

It is beyond any doubt that the temple was destroyed and so was Jerusalem in AD 70. The theocratic nation of Israel became
extinct in AD 70. There should be no hesitation in understanding that the Jews were 'led away captive into all nations'.

In addition we also have this important line NoHype.

"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

What you need to do NoHype, is to explain what the 'times of the Gentiles' means and when will this Gentile age be fulfilled.
Because your eschatology is based on a literal temple existing in a theocratic Jerusalem. For the life of me NoHype, I cannot
see the temple being rebuilt any time soon and especially not on the temple mount. The temple mount is the third most holy site
in Islam, and the Islamic world is not going to sit back quitely watching Israel building a temple on the temple mount.

Israel is a democracy and not a theocracy, the temple belongs to a theocratic nation.
Israel as a nation is endeavoring to survive in an ever increasing and dangerous Islamic world.
Israel is at war a continuous battle with Islam, Israel has been in this state for decades.

To elect a priesthood to govern Israel (theocracy) and to then rebuild the temple on the temple mount is a very extreme idea.

I'm not saying that your eschatology is erroneous NoHype, what I am saying is that you are stretching the canvas to paint an
almost impossible fulfillment of the scripture.

The Gospels of Matthew and Mark do not separate the prophecies concerning the destruction of Jerusalem from the end time
prophecies. The Gospel of Luke does make the distinction between these two scenarios.

One cannot omit the Gospel of Luke (Luke 21) from any eschatology.

 

[norapture]

Hello NoHype.

Relax NoHype, try not to take any criticism of the eschatology your promoting in a personal way.

You said the following NoHype.

I do not subscribe to any eschatology NoHype, a post tribulation explanation is probably closer to the mark than a pre-tribulation view.

Your eschatology is very difficult to sustain NoHype, mainly because you are making claims that the scripture itself may contradict.
You then said the following.

The Gospel of Luke states that the destruction of the temple did occur in 70 AD, NoHype. This was precisely the answer that
Jesus gave to the apostles question about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.[quot

(NKJV)
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her
depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

It is beyond any doubt that the temple was destroyed and so was Jerusalem in AD 70. The theocratic nation of Israel became
extinct in AD 70. There should be no hesitation in understanding that the Jews were 'led away captive into all nations'.

In addition we also have this important line NoHype.

"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

What you need to do NoHype, is to explain what the 'times of the Gentiles' means and when will this Gentile age be fulfilled.
Because your eschatology is based on a literal temple existing in a theocratic Jerusalem. For the life of me NoHype, I cannot
see the temple being rebuilt any time soon and especially not on the temple mount. The temple mount is the third most holy site
in Islam, and the Islamic world is not going to sit back quitely watching Israel building a temple on the temple mount.

Israel is a democracy and not a theocracy, the temple belongs to a theocratic nation.
Israel as a nation is endeavoring to survive in an ever increasing and dangerous Islamic world.
Israel is at war a continuous battle with Islam, Israel has been in this state for decades.

To elect a priesthood to govern Israel (theocracy) and to then rebuild the temple on the temple mount is a very extreme idea.

I'm not saying that your eschatology is erroneous NoHype, what I am saying is that you are stretching the canvas to paint an
almost impossible fulfillment of the scripture.

The Gospels of Matthew and Mark do not separate the prophecies concerning the destruction of Jerusalem from the end time
prophecies. The Gospel of Luke does make the distinction between these two scenarios.

One cannot omit the Gospel of Luke () from any eschatology.

DHC you said in Luke that it says the destruction of the temple happen in 70AD . I don't see where it says that. Just asking!

 

[norapture]

The Gospel of Luke states that the destruction of the temple did occur in 70 AD, NoHype. This was precisely the answer that
Jesus gave to the apostles question about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

DHC this very wrong . Just because the temple got destroyed in 70 AD does not make it the prophecy . There was still stones left on top of one another .

22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Do you believe that all things written was fulfilled in 70AD ? So I guess this means the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, has already happen. Because this is what will cause the desolation.





"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

If you read Daniel and Revelation, you will see this has not happen . This is a prophecy that's yet to come . They will be trample under foot for three and a half years. Its in Daniel and Revelation and both times it referring to the end.
I sure you won't believe me but look anyway.

 

[DHC]

DHC you said in Luke that it says the destruction of the temple happen in 70AD . I don't see where it says that. Just asking!

Hello NoRapture.

I apologise for not replying sooner to the statement you made in post #33.

You asked about the destruction of the temple in AD70, see below.

DHC you said in Luke that it says the destruction of the temple happen in 70AD . I don't see where it says that. Just asking!

The context of the whole chapter needs to be considered when reading the discourse that Jesus gave
in the twenty first chapter of Luke. Otherwise we may misunderstand what Jesus was talking about.

Luke 21
5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,
6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that
shall not be thrown down.”

People were speaking about how wonderful the temple appeared, Jesus directly addresses the audience
concerning the fate of this temple. Jesus is describing the destruction of this current temple in Jerusalem.

7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when
these things are about to take place?”

This is the question that was asked by those surrounding Jesus and this is the exact question Jesus answers.

Bible scholar Ray C. Stedman comments on the predictions of Jesus and their fulfillment in history a few decades later.

Forty years later the Roman armies under Titus came in and fulfilled the prediction to the very letter.
With Titus was a Jewish historian named Josephus who recorded the terrible story in minute detail...

"When at last the walls were breached Titus tried to preserve the Temple by giving orders to his soldiers
not to destroy or burn it. But the anger of the soldiers against the Jews was so intense that, maddened by
the resistance they encountered, they disobeyed the order of their general and set fire to the Temple.
There were great quantities of gold and silver there which had been placed in the Temple for safekeeping.
This melted and ran down between the rocks and into the cracks of the stones. When the soldiers captured
the Temple area, in their greed to obtain this gold and silver they took long bars and pried apart the massive
stones. Thus, quite literally, not one stone was left standing upon another. The Temple itself was totally
destroyed, though the wall supporting the area upon which the Temple was built was left partially intact
and a portion of it remains to this day, called the Western Wall".

Ray C. Stedman, What's This World Coming To?
(An expository study of Matthew 24-26, the Olivet Discourse).
Discovery Publications, 3505 Middlefield Rd., Palo Alto, CA 94306.

DHC this very wrong . Just because the temple got destroyed in 70 AD does not make it the prophecy.
There was still stones left on top of one another.

The temple was literally dismantled stone by stone, the only stones left in place belonged to a supporting wall.
The supporting wall was for the area that the temple was built on, the supporting wall was not part of the
temple itself. Josephus the Jewish historian tells us the temple was dismantled stone by stone, 'Thus, quite
literally, not one stone was left standing upon another'.

If you wish to dispute the account that Josephus gave, then you have moved beyond the historical account.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 by the Roman General Titus and his armies, historical fact.

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

This prophecy only concerns the residents of Judea, this prophecy is not an end time prophecy.

23...For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Jesus is clearly talking about the Jews in this verse 'and wrath upon this people'.

24...And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jerusalem was trampled by the Gentiles for two millennia and depending on how you view the current nation of Israel,
the Gentiles may still be trampling on Jerusalem!

The context of this chapter in Luke, the questions that were asked, and the answers that Jesus gave, leaves no room
for an alternative interpretation.

The destruction of the temple did occur in AD 70 and that is historical fact.

According to the eye witness account given the Jewish historian Josephus, the entire temple was taken apart stone by stone.

The context of the whole chapter in Luke's Gospel dictates that there was a literal fulfillment upon Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70.

 

[norapture]

DHC that's OK about taking awhile to get back.
Im just wandering in Matt.24:15, Mark 13:14 the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel.
Do you believe this is the same scriptures in Luke 21:15 , and also can you tell all the sign's Jesus gave in Luke 21, cause there is a lot of signs that has not took place yet.

 

[DHC]

Hello NoRapture.

In reply to your last post #36.

Im just wandering in Matt.24:15, Mark 13:14 the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel.
Do you believe this is the same scriptures in Luke 21:15, and also can you tell all the sign's Jesus gave in Luke 21;
cause there is a lot of signs that has not took place yet.

Here are three accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem which you cited NoRapture.

Matthew 24 (NKJV)
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea
flee to the mountains.

Mark 13
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing
where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart,
and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The account of Matthew and Mark have the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, mixed in
with the other end time events. If you read Matthew and Mark's accounts by themselves, then you
would probably be of the opinion that the destruction of Jerusalem is itself a key end time event.
But if you read Luke's account carefully then you would realize that these two scenarios, the destruction
of Jerusalem and the other end time events are separate from one another.

These three Gospel accounts are virtually identical, each of the accounts has the same statement,

'Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains'. Jesus is warning the Israelites to flee Jerusalem
before it is destroyed by the Romans.

Luke's Gospel is the only account that isolates the event above, the destruction of Jerusalem, from
the general end time events. NoRapture, you may need to look else where in the scripture to tie
Jerusalem into an end time scenario. Because Luke's account seems to put paid to the idea that
Israel is directly involved in these end time events.

If you wish to examine the prophetic accounts in Daniel and Revelations, then feel free to post the
verses.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:1-2; is Jesus talking about the temple.
Matt 24:3; all the way to Matt 25:46; is another discussion abut the end times.

Matt 24:3; As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

I think we can agree the temple isn't standing anymore.

Is it possible verses 5 through 7 are talking about the first century? Perhaps, but there really is no
record of many great earthquakes during this period. Also there was no great world war of nations against nations.
Rome was in control of the known world, and continued to be until the 5th century. Rome was sacked in 410 and in 455.
It took another 700 or 800 years for the rest of the Roman empire to fall. Particularly in Central Asia.

It we jump to verse 14, I think it's safe to say the gospel wasn't preached to the entire world in the first century. Not even most of the
Roman empire or "known" world. In fact 2,000 years later, it still isn't preached to the "whole" world.
In verse 15 it talks about the abomination of desolation, what this is, isn't exactly recorded in the Bible, but in Daniel 11 and 12, tradition holds that
Antiochus Epiphanes III sacrificed a swine on the altar of the temple. The book of Daniel was written roughly about 500 BC. It had to be sometimes after the reign of
Nebuchadnezzar II as he is mentioned frequently in Daniel. So this would have had to happen sometime between 33AD (when Jesus went back to heaven) and 70AD
(when the temple was destroyed). Yet there is no record of this happening. You can be sure something like this would have been recorded somewhere.

If we jump to verse 21 it says this will be the greatest tribulation period ever, that ever was or ever will be. The sacking of Jerusalem was hardly the greatest tribulation
in the world, many times since then have been much worse, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, WW I and WW II to name a few. If you believe the verses in Revelation
about a third of mankind dying, and then after that another fourth of mankind dying, it seems this event has not happened yet.

If we jump to verse 29, I think it's safe to say the sun and moon haven't been blacked out by anything longer than a solar eclipse. At least not yet.

Verses 30 and 31 definitely have not happened yet, I'm sure this would have been recorded in history. Besides if Jesus already came and raptured the church
the rest of us are in big trouble.

So if we jump all the back to verse 3, the disciples are specifically asking Jesus about his second coming and the end of the age. Neither of those has happened yet.

 

[NoHype]

Hello NoHype.

Relax NoHype, try not to take any criticism of the eschatology your promoting in a personal way.

You said the following NoHype.

I do not subscribe to any eschatology NoHype, a post tribulation explanation is probably closer to the mark than a pre-tribulation view.

Your eschatology is very difficult to sustain NoHype, mainly because you are making claims that the scripture itself may contradict.
You then said the following.

The Gospel of Luke states that the destruction of the temple did occur in 70 AD, NoHype. This was precisely the answer that
Jesus gave to the apostles question about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Luke 21 (NKJV)
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her
depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

It is beyond any doubt that the temple was destroyed and so was Jerusalem in AD 70. The theocratic nation of Israel became
extinct in AD 70. There should be no hesitation in understanding that the Jews were 'led away captive into all nations'.

In addition we also have this important line NoHype.

"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

What you need to do NoHype, is to explain what the 'times of the Gentiles' means and when will this Gentile age be fulfilled.
Because your eschatology is based on a literal temple existing in a theocratic Jerusalem. For the life of me NoHype, I cannot
see the temple being rebuilt any time soon and especially not on the temple mount. The temple mount is the third most holy site
in Islam, and the Islamic world is not going to sit back quitely watching Israel building a temple on the temple mount.

Israel is a democracy and not a theocracy, the temple belongs to a theocratic nation.
Israel as a nation is endeavoring to survive in an ever increasing and dangerous Islamic world.
Israel is at war a continuous battle with Islam, Israel has been in this state for decades.

To elect a priesthood to govern Israel (theocracy) and to then rebuild the temple on the temple mount is a very extreme idea.

I'm not saying that your eschatology is erroneous NoHype, what I am saying is that you are stretching the canvas to paint an
almost impossible fulfillment of the scripture.

The Gospels of Matthew and Mark do not separate the prophecies concerning the destruction of Jerusalem from the end time
prophecies. The Gospel of Luke does make the distinction between these two scenarios.

One cannot omit the Gospel of Luke (Luke 21) from any eschatology.

No contradiction, except with HOW you choose to interpret my statements, and Bible Scripture.

WITHIN the Matt.24 first section of verses, His answer revealing about the destruction of the temple was NOT about the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D., but the destruction of a final temple that will be standing in Jerusalem on the day of His return. That is why His Apostles knew there that He was giving a sign of the 'end of the world' and His coming...

Matt.24
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?


I know the blind Pharisees work overtime trying to create all kinds of loopholes with that simple reading so they fool God's people into believing all that was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Jerusalem, even to the point of world-play with that "end of the world" idea, but those don't work, for His disciples knew exactly what timing He was pointing to when they associated His second coming with it.

So, like I said, the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel, which Jesus quoted there as one of the signs for the end, REQUIRES... a standing temple there in Jerusalem for the "great tribulation" at the end of this present world. The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have the materials ready to build it, and do... plan to build it, and according to Bible prophecy they will build it, and it will be destroyed in final.

 

[DHC]

Matt 24:1-2; is Jesus talking about the temple.

Hello B-A-C.

You asked a question in your post and the question was as follows.

Matt 24:1-2; is Jesus talking about the temple.

When we read the text which I have printed below, it is safe to assume that Jesus is discussing
the visible temple.

Matthew 24
1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him
the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly,
I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Notice B-A-C that the prophetic prediction about the destruction of the temple was before the disciples
asked their questions!

After Jesus had predicted the destruction of the visible temple, the disciples came to Jesus privately and
asked the following questions.

Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these
things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

These are three questions asked by the disciples B-A-C, after the prediction concerning the temple.

1) Tell us when will these things be?
2) What will be the sign of your coming?
3) What will be the sign of the end of the age?


How about we ensure that we have the first verses in this chapter under our belt B-A-C.