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[DHC]

DHC thanks for for the reply.
So can we agree in the vision in Daniel 8:17&19 says its for the end of time. And this would mean the abomination of desolation is yet to happen in the end?

Hello NoRapture.

Not sure if the verse your referring to is in fact referring to the end of days. It may be referring to
the end of the nation of Israel, please read the earlier verses. Also you may need to also read the
following verse at the end of chapter eight.

Daniel 8
26 “And the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future.”

 

[norapture]

DHC what would you say is the abomination? That will cause the desolation. Daniel12;11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination THAT MAKETH DESOLATE set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290= Three and a half years)
Daniel 11:31 the abomination that maker desolate
Cause Daniels vision are about the Antichrist (beast) that shall come, that's what the abomination is. That's the reason Jesus says in Matthew 24:15 stand in the holy place. Even in Mark13:14 is says standing where it ought not.
It is what will cause the desolation.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-10
Verse 4 says: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the*most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hands; until a time =1 and time's=2 ,and dividing of time= a half. So three and half years.

In Daniels 8:11 trodden under foot

In Zachariah 14: 1-5 we can see here that Jerusalem will be taking, do you believe this at the end?
Also we can see in Revelation 11:2
See the times of the Gentiles (unbelievers) to trodden under foot is forty and to months
So do you believe the Antichrist happen in 70 AD. Cause this will be the abomination, which will make the city desolate.

 

[norapture]

DHC in Daniel 8:25 it says he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Jesus) but he shall be broken WITHOUT HANDS.
Do you think this happened in 70 AD ?
Or could this be what Paul was talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wiched be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his .
mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Not saying the temple didn't get destroyed in 70 AD. It just wasn't the time frame Jesus was talking about.
Even if man says it was because of history.
But when it comes to his word, we need to believe it over anything else. Cause what is written is written and it can not be broken.

Thanks DHC its been a real pleasure to reply with you about this, most seem to get up set or even angry when they don't agree with each other.
But I believe its about agreeing with his word. Thank for your time spent, I'm not say I'm done cause, I believe we should be there for one another to help each other. May God bless you .

 

[DHC]

Hello NoRapture.

The book of Daniel is very interesting and the interpretation of this book underlies many end time views.

I am somewhat familiar with the eschatology you follow NoRapture.

What I am curious about is how you interpret the following verses in Daniel?

Daniel 8
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking,
“How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving
of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three
hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

 

[norapture]

Hey DHC you ask how I interpret these scriptures.
Let me first say I try not to interpret scripture. Cause I don't want to lean to my understanding. So I always ask the Lord when Im not sure what they mean like in this these.
So in these verse's he is talking about two things, the daily sacrifice, and the transgression (abomination) of desolation.
He gives the time here from the time the daily sacrifice starts all the way to the end of the desolation, 2300 days.

Daniel 7:25 the second part (transgression of desolation ) for the time giving
When he begins to speak against our Lord , wear out the saints, think to change times and laws.
And they shall be given him until time=1
Times=2
And dividing of time = a half
So 1+2+half= 3 & half this is how he will trodden the city under foot.
Revelation 11:2 , forty and two months or 3 and half years.
Daniel 8:11
Daniel 9:27
So the rest of the 2300 days (daily sacrifice) will be peace for the first part. When the daily sacrifice in happening

 

[DHC]

Hey DHC you ask how I interpret these scriptures.
Let me first say I try not to interpret scripture. Cause I don't want to lean to my understanding. So I always ask the Lord when Im not sure what they mean like in this these.
So in these verse's he is talking about two things, the daily sacrifice, and the transgression (abomination) of desolation.
He gives the time here from the time the daily sacrifice starts all the way to the end of the desolation, 2300 days.

Hello NoRapture.

We were talking about verse thirteen NoRapture, verse thirteen is a question! A question about the
duration of the trampling underfoot of the temple (sanctuary) and the host. Here I will print the
two verses below for you, to save you looking them up.

Daniel 8
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking,
“How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the
giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

That is the question that was asked and the answer is given as follows.

14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The sacrifices were not occurring during the duration of the 2,300 days. The sacrifices cannot begin
until the temple and everything within the temple is cleansed. The duration of the Gentile trampling
is 2,300 days and that is what the text states. The cleansing takes place after 2,300 days.

You said the following which was puzzling.

He gives the time here from the time the daily sacrifice starts all the way to the end of the desolation, 2300 days.

Where did you get the idea that the sacrifices had started at the beginning of the 2,300 days?

Where does the text say that the sacrifices had started?

 

[norapture]

Hello NoRapture.

We were talking about verse thirteen NoRapture, verse thirteen is a question! A question about the
duration of the trampling underfoot of the temple (sanctuary) and the host. Here I will print the
two verses below for you, to save you looking them up.


13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking,
“How long will the vision be, concerning the((((( daily sacrifices))))AND the (((( transgression of desolation,)))) the
giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

DHC can you see where in verse 13 it says DAILY SACRIFICE.
So the question was about both the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation, not just about the desolation. So both are 2300 days not just the desolation, but also the daily sacrifice.


-----------you speak past tense-----
The sacrifices (were) not occurring during the duration of the 2,300 days. The sacrifices cannot begin
until the temple and everything within the temple is cleansed.

OK above you speak past tense this is the future it is something yet to happen.
You also made the statement ( The sacrifices cannot begin until the temple and everything within the temple is cleansed.)
But in Daniel 8:11 Yea he magnified himself even to the prince of host (Jesus) and by him ( Antichrist) the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
This shows that he will speak against God and the daily sacrifice will be taken away by the Antichrist.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part (Antichrist) ,and they shall (the Antichrist and his army) pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall TAKE AWAY the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Same here he takes away the daily sacrifice then place the abomination that maketh.
Also Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken
Away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED and NINETY days.
So my question where in the world did you come up with your idea, that the daily sacrifice was after the cleansing? Because the Antichrist takes away the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination.
Maybe from a book some man wrote or just history books.
But if you can show me in the scripture where it say his visions has happened.
And also show me a scripture that the daily sacrifice is after the cleansing.
Cause the cleansing is the coming of the Lord.


The duration of the Gentile trampling
is 2,300 days and that is what the text states. The cleansing takes place after 2,300 days.
Not so Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
DHC can you see that when the abomination is set up there is only 1290 days , so no way can just the desolation be 2300 days. But with the daily sacrifice counted with it ,is 2300 days.

You said the following which was puzzling.

Where did you get the idea that the sacrifices had started at the beginning of the 2,300 days?

By the Spirit of the Lord showing me in his word.

Where does the text say that the sacrifices had started?

If you will read the book, chapter, and verses you would know where. that this is in the future so I didn't say HAD started.
But they will before the desolation

DHC first of all its easy to see that you believe this has already happened.
You speak as everything in past tense and thats why you seem to be puzzled. Cause his vision is for the future and the end of time.

 

[Brian_32]

Hi everyone

I believe Isaiah 65 creates an interesting problem for the post-trib rapture position. This chapter speaks of people still dying in the Millennial Kingdom.

(Isaiah 65:17-25 [ESV]) For behold, I create new heavensand a new earth,and the former things shall not be rememberedor come into mind. But be glad and rejoice foreverin that which I create;for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,and her people to be a gladness. I will rejoice in Jerusalemand be glad in my people;no more shall be heard in it the sound of weepingand the cry of distress. No more shall there be in itan infant who lives but a few days,or an old man who does not fill out his days,for the young man shall die a hundred years old,and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them;they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit;they shall not plant and another eat;for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vainor bear children for calamity,for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD,and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer;while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall graze together;the lion shall eat straw like the ox,and dust shall be the serpent's food.They shall not hurt or destroyin all my holy mountain,says the LORD.

Paul makes it very clear that at the rapture we will receive imperishable bodies

(I Corinthians 15:51-53 [ESV]) Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

We also know that at the second coming all the wicked will be destroyed

(Matthew 24:38-39 [ESV]) For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

(II Thessalonians 1:7-8 [ESV]) and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

So, if the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation or simultaneously with the second coming, and believers receive imperishable bodies, and all the wicked are destroyed, who will be the people that populate the Millennial Kingdom in flesh bodies that are still capable of dying?

A pre-trib position can answer this. If the rapture occurs before the tribulation, then those who are saved during the tribulation will be the ones who enter into the Millennial Kingdom. They will not receive imperishable bodies at the second coming.

 

[norapture]

Hey Brian.

How many times would you say that Jesus is coming back? Maybe two, rapture and second coming.

 

[Brian_32]

Hey Brian.

How many times would you say that Jesus is coming back? Maybe two, rapture and second coming.

I guess it would be debatable if whether or not the rapture would be considered a "coming back" since Christ will not return to the earth, but only to receive believers in the air. I do favor the pre-trib position which has Jesus receiving his Church in the clouds before the tribulation, and then his return to the earth to setup the Millennial Kingdom after the tribulation.

I think its similar to how the Jews in the Old Testament (and even to this day) only seen one coming of Christ in the Scriptures. However, we know that the Old Testament spoke of two advents, and I also believe the New Testament speaks of "two phases", if you want to call it that, of Christ's second coming. Of course, many Christians disagree with that and think the rapture and the second coming happen together.

 

[norapture]

OK Brian so your not sure if the rapture is a coming ?
What is the rapture maybe the resurrection, or is the second coming the resurrection? But also know this if the rapture is a coming, then it would be the second , and then a 3rd coming would have to happen if they are not the same .
But I have not seen a 3rd in scripture.

 

[Brian_32]

OK Brian so your not sure if the rapture is a coming ?
What is the rapture maybe the resurrection, or is the second coming the resurrection? But also know this if the rapture is a coming, then it would be the second , and then a 3rd coming would have to happen if they are not the same .
But I have not seen a 3rd in scripture.

The rapture is definitely a "coming" for his Church but he is not "coming back" to earth until after the tribulation. There will be a resurrection at the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 , and I believe there will also be a resurrection at Christ's return to the earth after the tribulation Daniel 12:2

I think its important to recognize a distinction between Israel and the Church. If people don't make that distinction, then verses like Matthew 24:29 seem to destroy the pre-trib rapture (and would destroy it if Jesus is speaking to the Church) but I believe Israel is the focus of Matthew 24, not the Church. I believe it is speaking about Jews during the tribulation. For example, Jesus in Matthew 24:20 says "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day". Now, unless you are a Seventh Day Adventist, I doubt very seriously you would be concerned about your flight being on the sabbath, but a Jew might be. Jesus also says in Matthew 24:16 "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains". This is clearly a reference to Jews living in Israel at the time this all takes place. Why no instructions for where Christians everywhere else in the world are to flee to? How many Christians will even be in Judaea at that time? I dont believe these instructions from Jesus are referring to what happened in 70 AD, though I know some Christians will conclude that.

 

[norapture]

The rapture is definitely a "coming" for his Church but he is not "coming back" to earth until after the tribulation. There will be a resurrection at the rapture , and I believe there will also be a resurrection at Christ's return to the earth after the tribulation

I think its important to recognize a distinction between Israel and the Church. If people don't make that distinction, then verses like seem to destroy the pre-trib rapture (and would destroy it if Jesus is speaking to the Church) but I believe Israel is the focus of ; not the Church. I believe it is speaking about Jews during the tribulation. For example, Jesus in says "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day". Now, unless you are a Seventh Day Adventist, I doubt very seriously you would be concerned about your flight being on the sabbath, but a Jew might be. Jesus also says in "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains". This is clearly a reference to Jews living in Israel at the time this all takes place. Why no instructions for where Christians everywhere else in the world are to flee to? How many Christians will even be in Judaea at that time? I dont believe these instructions from Jesus are referring to what happened in 70 AD, though I know some Christians will conclude that.

Hey Brian just wandering how many comings you believe in and how many resurrection's.

You do know the gospel teaches there is no difference between Jew and Gentile anymore ? So why say we need to make the distinction between Israel and the church ? Jesus broke down the middle wall, so why would we want to build it back?

Would you say Matthew 24 is part of the gospel ? If so should we say this only for the Jews ?

Also would you say Mark 13 is talking
About the same as Matthew 24 ?

 

[Brian_32]

Hey Brian just wandering how many comings you believe in and how many resurrection's.

You do know the gospel teaches there is no difference between Jew and Gentile anymore ? So why say we need to make the distinction between Israel and the church ? Jesus broke down the middle wall, so why would we want to build it back?

Would you say Matthew 24 is part of the gospel ? If so should we say this only for the Jews ?

Also would you say Mark 13 is talking
About the same as Matthew 24 ?

Its my opinion that there will be two resurrections, but there will be three stages to the first. I believe the first stage included Jesus who was the firstfruits 1 Corinthians 15:20 and those in Matthew 27:52-53 . I believe the second stage will be at the rapture of Church when those who sleep in Christ will rise. And then there is the third stage when those who are martyred during the tribulation, and possibly Old Testament saints (this is debatable) are raised. In my opinion, all three stages will make up the first resurrection. Then I believe the second resurrection takes place after the Millennium. It may seem absurd to say there are three stages to the first resurrection, especially separated by so many years, but I think we have to conclude that there is at least two stages, because of Christ being the firstfruits and Matthew 27:52-53. So if there is two stages, then three doesn't really seem all that far fetched to me.

You are correct that in this dispensation there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. There is no distinction between us. However, I believe that after the rapture of the Church, things will change and God will continue his program with Israel. I feel that those verses I pointed out in Matthew 24 are referring to the tribulation, after the Church is already gone. Matthew 24 , like all Scripture, has application to the Church, but I don't not believe Jesus was addressing the Church.

In Mark 13 and Matthew 24 Jesus starts off by clearly making references to 70 AD. I think that's an inescapable conclusion, but I also believe without warning, he switches gears and begins talking about events that are still future, and I believe that is also an inescapable conclusion. We have sort of a dual prophecy where it is speaking of one thing, and then without warning, makes allusions to something else.

 

[norapture]

Brian have you read the early post in this thread ? Before you started posting.

 

[Brian_32]

Brian have you read the early post in this thread ? Before you started posting.

I went through the thread before posting. Though admittedly, I did speed read through the last 2 or 3 pages. Is there something I missed that you want to bring to my attention? Because I didn't come across anything that would change what I have said.

 

[norapture]

Hey Brian is your cup full ?
You said the events of Matthew happen in 70AD . But the abomination of desolation is about the Antichrist that is to come. Its a time at the end of the world.

 

[Brian_32]

Hey Brian is your cup full ?
You said the events of Matthew happen in 70AD . But the abomination of desolation is about the Antichrist that is to come. Its a time at the end of the world.

I didn't say that the events of Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD, I said I do believe Jesus made references to 70 AD in that Chapter. There are clearly many things in that chapter that could not have taken place in 70 AD. I wholeheartedly agree that the abomination of desolation is about the Antichrist, and is a future event.

 

[norapture]

OK I'm sorry. What was you referring to about 70 AD ? If you don't mine me asking .

 

[Brian_32]

OK I'm sorry. What was you referring to about 70 AD ? If you don't mine me asking .

I feel the first two verses of Matthew 24 are specifically speaking of 70 AD. Like someone in this thread pointed out before, Jesus says "See ye not all these things?", surely Jesus was speaking of the temple that was before them at that time. However, I do believe there is going to be a third temple in the future. Then of course his disciples ask "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?". Now, I believe from that point forward we are primarily dealing with future events, but I can't rule out the possibility that some of what Jesus is saying might have allusions to 70 AD. Like I said, its sort of a dual prophecy with possible allusions to 70 AD, but with a primary fulfillment in the future.