Brightfame52
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Has nothing to do with who God loved,His Elect/Chosen.
The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !
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KingJ
Loyal
It is not advisable to read a verse backwards. Read your verse as it is written! We draw close to God, then, he draws close to us. As also clarified in James 4.
James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
God's love is a very complex topic. God has a different love for all to the love He has for His children. As too is the definition of hate a complex topic with Him. We do not see evidence of 'hatred' from Him to ANY of His creation. Can you name an example?
God has a certain love for all. We see this in many scriptures. Example, 2 Tim 2:4 God wills all to be saved , Matt 8:28 when he casts 'evil' demons into swine and if you just read John 3:16, as is, without adding any inuendo's.
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Rhema
Active
If God did not love all men without exception, Christ's words in Mat. 28:19-20 would be meaningless:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Matthew 28:19-20 KJV)
Just curious on this one brother.
When did God start loving us, when did He stop, and did He restart loving us...or am I missing something in the telling?
Though I guess if you consider God outside of time, and everything for Him is "Now"...even my question along with your statement would probably be irrelevant to the asking....
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Brightfame52
Active
Jesus should have just said the Father loved you all
Brightfame52
Active
The Elect are within all nations Duh
Rhema
Active
All I said was... "He loves them for what he can make them to be."
There's no time referent in my statement to imply a starting or a stopping.
But if God loves the sinner the way they are, then there would be no need for them to repent and submit to the transformation of the Holy Spirit.... because "He loves them just the way they are." (I'm tempted to break out in song.
)Now one could infer a "starting" point at the Fall of Man, or even at the Creation of Man when it was good, possibly, even, the moment God had the idea of Man.
And whether saved or not, God still loves us for what He can make us to be. But can God make anyone to be anything if they rebel? If they reject the Gospel of Jesus? It would seem not.
Hope this clarifies.
Off on vacation soon,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
You add words into the scripture. The Lord rebuke you.
My apologies. I thought you could at least read what is actually written. I stand corrected.
B-A-C
Loyal
The "love" of God is not the same thing as the "salvation" of God.
God loves sinners, even un-saved sinners.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
God didn't send His Son and then love the world afterwards. He loved the world and then sent His Son afterwards.
Someone doesn't have to be saved in order for God to love them.
But now, say someone is saved, and then they fall away ( funny how these discussions always go back to OSAS )
Does God still love them if they reject Him and disobey Him?
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
These three verses say if you keep His commandments, He will love you. But what if you don't keep His commandments?
Does He still love you? Maybe, but there is no verse that specifically says so.
Some people say agape is unconditional love. But the definition of agape doesn't say it's unconditional.
ἀγαπάω
agapaō; of unc. or.; to love, show love:—
beloved(8), love(76), loved(38), loves(20), showed love(1).
agapaō
ag-ap-ah'-o
Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): - (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.
ἀγαπάω
agapaō
Thayer Definition:
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from agan (much) [or compare G5368]
Did God love Esau?
Heb 12:16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
Did God consider Esau "godless" before he sold his inheritance? There is no verse that says that.
God loves sinners, even un-saved sinners.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
God didn't send His Son and then love the world afterwards. He loved the world and then sent His Son afterwards.
Someone doesn't have to be saved in order for God to love them.
But now, say someone is saved, and then they fall away ( funny how these discussions always go back to OSAS )
Does God still love them if they reject Him and disobey Him?
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
These three verses say if you keep His commandments, He will love you. But what if you don't keep His commandments?
Does He still love you? Maybe, but there is no verse that specifically says so.
Some people say agape is unconditional love. But the definition of agape doesn't say it's unconditional.
ἀγαπάω
agapaō; of unc. or.; to love, show love:—
beloved(8), love(76), loved(38), loves(20), showed love(1).
agapaō
ag-ap-ah'-o
Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): - (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.
ἀγαπάω
agapaō
Thayer Definition:
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from agan (much) [or compare G5368]
Did God love Esau?
Heb 12:16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
Did God consider Esau "godless" before he sold his inheritance? There is no verse that says that.
I took it by your statement that the implication is that His Love is not current, and conditional on some future change.
Not at all. For God so loved the World...unless you believe that world does not include humanity...The love was not conditional, but rather the gift of death to life was. As the Creator, which the closest I can relate that to, is as a parent. That the love I have for my child is not conditional upon their behavior past, present or in the future. However, like any good parent He desires only the best for them and so provides the means for them to achieve it. If they so want too of course. Which is the love of which I try to have to others as well, even though it is more trying then with my own children.But if God loves the sinner the way they are, then there would be no need for them to repent and submit to the transformation of the Holy Spirit.... because "He loves them just the way they are." (I'm tempted to break out in song.
(I would love to hear you sing!) (I'm not sure if the wink is for the statement before or after it) As to the rest, it really has little to do with time. He loves us for that is who He is. \o/
Continuing to Pray for you my brother!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Curtis
Loyal
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The word, "love" in this scripture that you already quoted is "agape" which says we were not doing anything pleasing to God yet he still loved us while we were still sinners. Sounds pretty unconditional to me.
If God loves sinners which everyone is, then "how" He loves certain people is different.
He loves the world by not punishing them for their sins immediately and gives them mercy (Not giving to man what he deserves) for a time until judgment day.
He loves His sons by giving them grace (Giving us what we don't deserve) for eternal life (by revealing (manifesting) Himself to us) and new birth into His family.
What is eternal life?
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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KingJ
Loyal
I am truly so afraid for you on judgement day. Twisting the words of God as you do to portray Him as partial and evil. May God have mercy on your extremely ignorant soul!!!
Rhema
Active
"He loves." (Present, active, indicative) I did not say "he will love." Why does He love? Because of what He can make them to be - Righteous. That's what his love is for. He is loving them for the purpose of making them Righteous.
The love is not conditional, but that's the purpose of His love.
For God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 KJV~)"Should not perish," is the purpose of His love. Having "everlasting life" is the purpose of His love. Are those things conditional? (I'll let you answer that.)
Then again... they are conditional. Whosoever believeth. So the "believeth-ing" is a condition. But what is the "believeth-ing in him" to mean? That we believe his teachings. And how do we believe his teachings?
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(John 15:14 KJV)And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
(Luke 6:46 KJV)Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(Acts 13:38 KJV)Not through Abraham, not through Moses, (not through Paul), but it is through Jesus that one is taught how one's sins get forgiven.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(Matthew 6:12 KJV)And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.
(Luke 11:4 KJV)Forgiveness is granted by the mercies of the Father when we ask Him to (forgive us), by prayer in repentance. (No sacrifice is needed.)
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
(Mark 1:14 KJV)If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached (and nothing more).
And what did Jesus preach? (Of course you know....)
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(Mark 1:14-15 KJV)That sounds rather "conditional" doesn't it. Believe and DO.
That seems to be leaning towards Universalism. God's love is so great that he just saves everybody...
So then it IS conditional.... If they so want.
In the parable of the prodigal son, I've always been intrigued by the fact that the father did not go after his kid.
WARNING... DUCK AND COVER... INCOMING PM...
Rhema
B-A-C
Loyal
No one has eternal life yet. ( well, Jesus does ).
Mark 10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
IF keep_commandments THEN
abide_in_love
ELSE
not_abide_in_love
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Brightfame52
Active
This scripture and others like it prove that God does not Love all without exception Heb 12:6-8
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Notice, Christ says as many as I love..meaning He does not Love all without exception or this statement would be meaningless..
Those God Loves He chastens. Now does He chastens the whole world without exception ? No He does not.
There is a distinction between those God loves and chasten and the rest of the world He shall condemn 1 Cor 11:32
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Now that portion of mankind that shall be condemned at the Judgment, were not Chastened by the Lord, and scripture says, as many as the Lord Loves they are chasten, and they will not be condemned with the world..
So this is more scripture testimony that God does not Love all men without exception.
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Notice, Christ says as many as I love..meaning He does not Love all without exception or this statement would be meaningless..
Those God Loves He chastens. Now does He chastens the whole world without exception ? No He does not.
There is a distinction between those God loves and chasten and the rest of the world He shall condemn 1 Cor 11:32
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Now that portion of mankind that shall be condemned at the Judgment, were not Chastened by the Lord, and scripture says, as many as the Lord Loves they are chasten, and they will not be condemned with the world..
So this is more scripture testimony that God does not Love all men without exception.
KingJ
Loyal
*More evidence of cherry-picked verses read with a bias.
If you disagree, come join me on another site that does formal debates. There you cannot keep posting the same gunk and think you are keeping face. You are suffering from a serious case of ostrich syndrome.
Brightfame52
Active
To teach that God Loved all men without exception by faulty understanding of Jn 3:16, is to overlook that God's Love is grounded in Christ and not apart from Him..
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thats right, we must not understand Jn 3:16 apart from Rom 8:39..
Now, with this in mind, If God Loved all men without exception in Christ Jesus, then all men without exception could claim to be recipients of this declaration from the mouth of Christ Jn 17:23-24
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
This is a declaration that all True Believers in Christ were Loved by the Father in the same manner as He loved the Son, and that being before the foundation of the world...
Now, if those who recklessly teach that God Loves all men without exception, then they have all been loved to the same manner of extent as Christ has been loved even from before the foundation, and yet many of them so loved by God, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels..
And many of them so loved will hear Him whom they were Loved in before the foundation say these words Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or these words Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
They will be called ye cursed even though they had supposedly been Loved by God in Him, before the world began..
All these conclusions are merited because men will not bow to scripture testimony that God only loved some of mankind and not all. 2
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thats right, we must not understand Jn 3:16 apart from Rom 8:39..
Now, with this in mind, If God Loved all men without exception in Christ Jesus, then all men without exception could claim to be recipients of this declaration from the mouth of Christ Jn 17:23-24
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
This is a declaration that all True Believers in Christ were Loved by the Father in the same manner as He loved the Son, and that being before the foundation of the world...
Now, if those who recklessly teach that God Loves all men without exception, then they have all been loved to the same manner of extent as Christ has been loved even from before the foundation, and yet many of them so loved by God, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels..
And many of them so loved will hear Him whom they were Loved in before the foundation say these words Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or these words Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
They will be called ye cursed even though they had supposedly been Loved by God in Him, before the world began..
All these conclusions are merited because men will not bow to scripture testimony that God only loved some of mankind and not all. 2
KingJ
Loyal
What you need to do is take off your biased Calvinistic reading glasses and just read those verses as they are written in their context.
I read those same scriptures and am just shocked at how you purposely misread.
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Oh, by the way, God showed me a verse that confirms that you are not one of His chosen. He does not know you.
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love!
Imagine believing God does not love His creation. Imagine thinking God made many simply to burn in fire. Imagine thinking that love is giving one child a wonderful Christmas present (heaven) and another child a lethal injection (lake of fire).
------------------------
How do you feel knowing that you are NOT one of His chosen?
Brightfame52
Active
God does not Love all men without exception, because all whom He Loved are and will be more than conquerors, overcomer's through Christ.
Rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
The word through is the prep dia which means:
through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..
So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors. Which certainly cannot be the case.
Rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
The word through is the prep dia which means:
through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..
So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors. Which certainly cannot be the case.
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