The Sabbath

[jond]

Hi Jiggyfly
I think from reading ur reply that u may not realise that there is two laws in the old testament, there is the law of God ( 10 commandments) and also the laws of Moses, ( sacrificial system, which ended at the cross ). I do not believe that any of the ten commandments were done away with at the cross, they are to show us that we are sinners and need the blood of Jesus to cover us

gbu sister

Jond

 

[missi]

ok,, now before I present a whole set of verses, which happen to be the old set of verses plus some new ones, let me just point out one thing:

The two parties, *Sunday-ers and *Saturday-ers (4th Commandment Keepers), are not, I tell you, not arguing over the same subject, but on two totally different ones.

Why, might you ask?

-*Sunday-ers insist that the *Saturday-ers only obey the Law to be made right with God - to be justified - to be saved from eternal condemnation.

on the other hand,

-*Saturday-ers try to make the *Sunday-ers see that obedience to the Law is not for justification but obedience to the God of the Law, because He is our God.

Now, as a *Saturday-er, I must tell you that I keep the 4th commandment not because I do not think that grace alone from Jesus Christ is enough to save me -- no. I believe that -- and I know that no matter how righteous I can be, without the grace of the Lord, I am nothing but rabbit poop or worse. I keep the 4th Commandment, as the 4th Commandment was given by the Lord, because He is my Lord and my God. He is my Lord, meaning He is my master, meaning He is the one person I obey the most. He is my God, meaning He is superior over me in all manner, He is my King, He is my everything, without Him I am totally nothing.

Now if that don't seem logical enough for you people, and insist on a totally different subject, might I suggest we move that to a brand new thread entitled - 'Is Obedience to the Law Necessary for Complete Salvation?'.

It's pretty obvious that nowhere in the New Testament did the Lord say that the Sabbath has been changed nor has the Sabbath Day commandment been nullified and made void out of the grace of the Lord. For if it were so, pretty much the Lord would have allowed murder and fornication to run amock - so that the Lord would be consistent. Now that wouldn't seem logical nor right, now, would it?

What Law died on the Cross was not the Law - it was the curse of the Law - the curse that condemns all men to hell for just one tiny disobedience to the Law. God's standards are far too high for man to reach, which is why obedience to the Law cannot justify us, and therefore we do not obey the Law to be justified, but, instead, out of faith and love for our Lord God. Furthermore, the Law consists of the commandments. Mind you, commandments, not choices. We do not pick which we wish to follow for the Lord is our God, and not us.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and so therefore the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

I so totally don't remember which verse that is, but as the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath, our Lord Jesus Christ - we obey Him. We are not lord over the Lord of the Sabbath to control which day the Sabbath is, now, are we? The Lord Jesus said that out of context to the good thing He has done on the Sabbath - helping a poor man. It was not out of cancelling the Law of the Sabbath, but making it clear to man that the Sabbath is to be made holy for man's good - and good, meaning good according to the Word of the Lord, not a bunch of ritualistic strictness.


Matthew 22:36-40

36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

^^ great. Great. gReAt. The most important ever.

37And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

^^ first to fourth commandment.

38"This is the great and foremost commandment.

^^ from the lips of Christ.

39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

^^ fifth to tenth commandment.
40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

^^ yep.

So you see, *Saturday-ers ain't insisting that the grace of the Lord ain't enough for salvation. 4th Commandment Keepers are pretty much trying to show you what the Bible says about the Sabbath.

And, as you have been insisting that 4th Commanmdent Keepers are 'judging' you or telling you that 'you are condemned out of your disobedience to the Law and are not saved due the grace of the Lord alone', might you not consider thinking what is the matter why you think that of us? We are not judging you. We have no right to do that. I am no pharisee. Pharisees have no right to that either, even. I was but a mere sinner that was saved by the Lord by His grace and His grace alone, through His Son, Christ Jesus.

Please think about it. It's pretty apparent that the Lord is trying to talk to you but you are brushing Him off because you feel the guilt. I had felt the guilt when I was rebuked, and yes, I did brush Him off. But He did not give up on me.

So please, do not think that 4th Commandment Keepers are judging you. Since you are thinking that, there must be something wrong -- there ain't gonna be any smoke if there hadn't been no fire. I wouldn't be rebuked, for example, for something wrong I have done if I have not done that. I wouldn't feel guilty and get all defensive if I haven't done that.

Now I would leave you with the one more verse,

Proverbs 13:1
1A wise son accepts his father's discipline,
But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.


May God bless you and open your eyes.

~~~~
P.S.

This is isn't the original text I was supposed to post, because the original one went boom *Lucifer is to be blamed. Argh. Seriously, I, like, tried to post that for two to three times due the Lord's instruction, but failed all times.. Imma post them again.*

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi Jiggyfly
I think from reading ur reply that u may not realise that there is two laws in the old testament, there is the law of God ( 10 commandments) and also the laws of Moses, ( sacrificial system, which ended at the cross ). I do not believe that any of the ten commandments were done away with at the cross, they are to show us that we are sinners and need the blood of Jesus to cover us

gbu sister

Jond

Well firstly you might want to read the profile and find that I'm not a sister:shock:

Secondly, do you have any scriptures that state there is such a division in the old covenant law? I would be very interested in seeing it. I am very familiar with how sabbath keepers divide up the laws but have yet to see any credibility and witness with the scriptures and HolySpirit.

 

[Gracealone]

*Saturday-ers try to make the *Sunday-ers see that obedience to the Law is not for justification but obedience to the God of the Law, because He is our God.

What makes you think we don't walk in obedience to our Lord?or dont want to even.

In the new Testament the law is summed up in this, Love the Lord thy God,with all your heart, and with all thy soul, and thy neighbor as thy self. Matt.22:40

Also in Acts 15:1-29 we read these words, talking about the Gentile believers. Best to read the whole thing, but will put the basic message here......

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idles, and from blood. and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves
ye do well. Fare ye well.

In verse Acts 15: 23- 24 it reads And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The Apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria, and Cilicea:

For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls saying, Ye must be circumcises and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

Please give me your understanding of these words.

 

[jiggyfly]

Christ died because we do not qualify to pay the wages of sin that will bring us eternal life. Sin is the breaking of the law. This includes all ten commandments.

Yes, I am a COMMANDMENT KEEPER. I do keep the fourth commandment Sabbath. I try not to do secular things that can be done on other days on the Sabbath. Example: I do not shop on the Sabbath, but if I were visiting a home where no food is, I would go to the store and buy some. This is doing good on the Sabbath. I would not mop my floor on the Sabbath, but if someone vomited on the Sabbath, I would mop the floor. Ex. 20:8-11 says that we should do no work on the Sabbath. This refers to unnecessary work.
Consider the following:

[/I]

I do not see this being inline with the scriptures.

Exodus 20:8-11
8*“Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9*Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, 10*but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. 11*For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then he rested on the seventh day. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

I don't see any thing about necessary or unneccessary work.

What do you suppose the priests did on the sabbath?

Who worked in the temple on the sabbath making sacrifices?

Exodus 34:27&28
27*And the Lord said to Moses, “Write down all these instructions, for they represent the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.”
28*Moses was up on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he neither ate nor drank. At that time he wrote the terms of the covenant—the Ten Commandments—on the stone tablets.

Here the scriptures clearly place the "ten commandments within the covenant between God and Israel.

If you are still under the Law (ten commandments) what is the penalty for disobedience? Is the penalty the same as it was for Israel according to the scriptures? Isn't law without enforcement is useless?

Exodus 35:1-3
1*And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the Lord hath commanded, that ye should do them. 2*Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3*Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

I find the same kind of misrepresentaton concerning the rest of the old covenant.

The old covenant was full of shadows, types and illustrations of God's plan of reconciliation would be, but that is all they are, just illustrations. Now God has revealed His plan for reconciliation in His new covenant. In the old covenant He gave them His law but in the new covenant He has given us his Spirit. Why keep looking to the illustrations for guidance when now God has given us the Guide.

 

[missi]

What makes you think we don't walk in obedience to our Lord?or dont want to even.

I had said no such thing. It's pretty apparent that that is what you think what we think about you, when it totally isn't.

In the new Testament the law is summed up in this, Love the Lord thy God,with all your heart, and with all thy soul, and thy neighbor as thy self. Matt.22:40

Yeah, I kinda like posted that in my previous reply; the Love the Lord thy God part consisting of the first to the fourth commandment, and the thy neighbor as thyself part consisting of the fifth to the tenth.

Also in Acts 15:1-29 we read these words, talking about the Gentile believers. Best to read the whole thing, but will put the basic message here......

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idles, and from blood. and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves
ye do well. Fare ye well.

In verse Acts 15: 23- 24 it reads And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The Apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria, and Cilicea:

For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls saying, Ye must be circumcises and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

You do not have to make me read that as my King Himself told me to read the entire Acts of the Apostles a week ago.

He has made it clear to me that Gentiles have no need to keep kosher, or kashrut, which includes the clean and unclean foods etc. He has also made it clear to me that we do not need to have our males circumcised, for those things are part of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was created by the blood of Christ, so therefore establishing a bond between God and man who believes in His Son.

Anyway, He has also made it clear to me that the commandments He has given has never been, and never will be changed.

Luke 16:17
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

Those words came from Jesus Christ, Himself. Now since the Law that our King is referring to is the Law God has given Moses long ago, which contains the 10 Commandments, it is therefore unchangeable. Saturday is the Seventh Day. And the Seventh Day is the Shabbat/Sabbath Day. If it were not so, then Christ might have been lying, nullifying all things that He had initially wanted to achieve.

Furthermore, the Law of Moses contains a lot of things. It contains the entirety of the Torah: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. So pretty much, the unnecessary laws were the ones about kashrut, circumcision, etc -- but it did not contain the Law of the Sabbath Day.

If we were not to follow the Law and insist that Jesus Christ came to change all that for the mere convenience of man, then that don't seem right, now, do it? Christ came for spiritual salvation, not for man to live in luxury and comfort on Earth -- those are just bonuses. He came to cancel the curse of the Law - which does not include the Sabbath. The Sabbath is of the Law - it is 1/10th of the Law, and it most certainly isn't the curse.

Do you not see that Satan is having a field day whenever he sees Christians following all nine, yet missing out on one? I am not being a pharisee here, I am just trying to make you see so please do not flame me. I had been deceived myself, and the only way to get rid of it is to accept the truth and not insist on what is convenient for me.

Please read the text that you have given me yourself. It is pretty clear there that they did not mention the cancellation of the 4th Commandment. If they had, then it would have been logical to cancel all other commandments, especially thou shall not murder all the way to thou shall not covet because these commandments have several levels lower than the Sabbath Commandment. Man, oh man, Satan would then have the perfect field day!

You shall have no other gods before Me > You shall make no graven image > You shall not take My Name in vain > You shall keep the Sabbath holy > Honor your father and your mother > Do not murder > Do not commit adultery > Do not steal > Do not bear false witness > Do not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

If we cancel that, it's only correct to cancel all other commandments after it.

God has never said that He canceled that out, now, did He?

Please show me a verse that says He canceled it out, and please read the verse out of context, not just a verse on its own, because sometimes that could be very misleading.

 

[FinalCry]

The Sabbath Truth

The whole thing is to get rid of the seventh day Sabbath. In order to do it, one must get rid of the whole law. Who really believes that it is no longer a sin to steal?

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Who's calling Jesus a liar?

Matt. 15:9 says, " But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."

If the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from Saturday by man, then this text applies.

Who changed the Sabbath and why?

Those who refuse to obey what a six year old child can understand can do what they want to. I invite you to talk to God about it. If you are sincere, He will guide you.

I wonder how many fallen angels visit forums and post things to confuse people.

I think enough has been said to prove the point that sin is indeed the transgression of the law, just as 1st John 3:4 says.

And the wages of sin is death. There is nothing more to debate.

 

[jiggyfly]

God has never said that He canceled that out, now, did He?

Please show me a verse that says He canceled it out, and please read the verse out of context, not just a verse on its own, because sometimes that could be very misleading.

Hebrews 8:1-13
1*Here is the main point: Our High Priest sat down in the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. 2*There he ministers in the sacred tent, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands.
3*And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. 4*If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law of Moses. 5*They serve in a place of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the design I have shown you here on the mountain.”* 6*But our High Priest has been given a ministry that is far superior to the ministry of those who serve under the old laws, for he is the one who guarantees for us a better covenant with God, based on better promises.
7*If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8*But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:
“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9* This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10* But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11* And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12* And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13*When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

Here are some, if you want more I can post them.

 

[missi]

Hebrews
1*Here is the main point: Our High Priest sat down in the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. 2*There he ministers in the sacred tent, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands.
3*And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. 4*If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law of Moses. 5*They serve in a place of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the design I have shown you here on the mountain.”* 6*But our High Priest has been given a ministry that is far superior to the ministry of those who serve under the old laws, for he is the one who guarantees for us a better covenant with God, based on better promises.
7*If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8*But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:
“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9* This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10* But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11* And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12* And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13*When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

Here are some, if you want more I can post them.

err... what verse/s is/are that/those? please give me the verses with their locations, not summaries of what you think. =)

 

[jiggyfly]

The whole thing is to get rid of the seventh day Sabbath. In order to do it, one must get rid of the whole law. Who really believes that it is no longer a sin to steal?

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Who's calling Jesus a liar?

Matt. 15:9 says, " But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."

If the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from Saturday by man, then this text applies.

Who changed the Sabbath and why?

Those who refuse to obey what a six year old child can understand can do what they want to. I invite you to talk to God about it. If you are sincere, He will guide you.

I wonder how many fallen angels visit forums and post things to confuse people.

I think enough has been said to prove the point that sin is indeed the transgression of the law, just as 1st John 3:4 says.

And the wages of sin is death. There is nothing more to debate.

The law is God's requirement of the old covenant between God and Israel. Do you understand what a covenant is? It is a contract between two or more parties. The old contract or covenant was broken by Israel many times and legally was no longer binding to God but God is graceous and sent His Son to fulfill Israel's part of the contract so now God held up His end and their end also. It has been fulfilled now by Christ meaning all the requirements have been satisfied. Would you continue to make payments to the bank after repayment was fulfilled?

Now I know some will say that the ten commandments are not part of the old covenant but scriptures clearly state that the ten commandments are very much a part of the old covenant as I posted before.


Exodus 34:27&28
27*And the Lord said to Moses, “Write down all these instructions, for they represent the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.”
28*Moses was up on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he neither ate nor drank. At that time he wrote the terms of the covenant—the Ten Commandments—on the stone tablets.

 

[jiggyfly]

err... what verse/s is/are that/those? please give me the verses with their locations, not summaries of what you think. =)

Sorry my mistake I corrected it. It's Hebrews 8:1-13 and btw it is not a summary or commentary it is the New Living Translation.

 

[letusgo27]

I seriously don't get this why are people asking the same questions over and over again.

are there two laws?

A: Yes, the Ten Commandments were written with the finger of GOd the rest by man's hand.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

here is a scripture that seperates the two laws as mentioned in more detail in earlier post.

what is the law for? A: transgression

Transgression? 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

A: transgression is breaking the law there are other scriptures that make this clearer find them.

so the Law was added becasue of breaking of a law hmmm so there are two.

one law we transgressed and the other law was added becasue we transgressed but only till the seed shall come. (Jesus)

why do people quote all the texts in the new testament that talk about the law beeing done away with that we should not keep it and totally ignore the ones that say we should keep the law and honour it.

you have te either acknowledge that there is a major inconsistancy in the New Testament or there are in fact as galations says two seperate laws at least.

now the covonent New and Old. why is it that people fail to see the simplicity of the two covonents.

the Old was based on a law which was added because of breaking the ten commandments but only untill Jesus comes.

the new is Jesus who takes away our sin when we transgress the law. once Jesus came the laws that pointed to him that were about Him were done away with.

hebrews shows that it was by faith just like today that Abraham and moses etc were saved. faith in the comming of the promised seed or the new covonent. we have faith in the one who has come, Jesus Christ.

same faith just one before and one after Jesus.

are we under the law? A: no

those who follow Christ are under grace but that does not mean they dont obey Him rahter out of love which is the fullfiment of the law we uphold the law as Paul says.

Brothers and Sisters if we connect the ten commandments as only part of the old covonent then we have to get rid of all of them and no one in their right mind believes that.

my question is what do you have against the Sabbath that Jesus Gave you as a Gift. What is it that makes you fight so hard against it when it is a blessings to obey the Lord. why do you ignore all scripture that plainly shows the keeping of the Ten commandments not just nine but all ten. and hold to a few scriptures here and there that are in fact in line with what I am saying.

In Isaiah He calls the Sabbath a perpetual sighn meanng never ending sign.

Jesus said the Sabbath was for man not just jews.

the Sabbath was blessed and sanctified on the the 7th day of creation before a Jew existed.

Jesus said in matt 24 pray that your flight will not take place on the Sabbath which was pointing forward to 70 ad at the fall of jerusalem.

why would Jesus say this if the sabbath was done away with? A: he wouldent unless it was still in action.

why did paul keep the sabbath even when there was not synagog he still kept it.

The Ten commandments are the law of heaven they are promises not commands to a christian. if you love me you will not kill if you love me you will not steal. If you love me you will take joy in the day that I have blessed and made hoyl for you. etc

this is why they were stored under the mercy seat in the symbolic throne room of God. this is why it was called the ark of the testimony because the law of GOd was in it. the ark of the covonent because the mercy seat sat aobve it Jesus our mercy seat. why do we need Jesus because the law is still there and we are in constant need of the mercy of Jesus.

John saw in revelation speaking of the end when jesus comes back He saw the heaven opened and in there he saw the ark of the testimoney hmmm.

Brothers dont be fooled Jesus warned constantly and so did the apostles that we need to be carful that we dont decieve ourselves.

The antiChrist will seek to change times and laws says Daniel and thus the sabbath that is both time and a law has been changed by man. yet anyone who breakes the least of these commandments is guilty of all praise GOd for grace. not one jot or tittle has been taken away Says Jesus yet tyou go further and take a Whole commandment out. why?

what is it about the Sabbath of God that offends you?
why do you persist in your man made ways and make void tha law of GOd?

Brothers and Sisters whoever you obey that is who you serve so chose you this day weather to obey God or Man. for do we not speak of the Sabbath of GOd. has GOd not said remember to keep my Sabbath? on which is the 7th day. to be a sign between us for ever.

Do we not all serve the same Jesus who claimes to be Lord of the Sabbath? who lived by example and kept the whole ten commandment law and said that His obedienc pleased the Father for Jesus said I have kept all your commandments. and again He said If you love me you will keep my commandment and again if you keep my commandments then I will send the Holy Spirit to you.

blessings all please think about it pray about it search the scripture to see if what I am saying is true do not be decieved.

there are two classes in the end those who are against God who are angry at those who obey God and those who are with GOd here they are.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[jiggyfly]

I seriously don't get this why are people asking the same questions over and over again.
are there two laws?

A: Yes, the Ten Commandments were written with the finger of GOd the rest by man's hand.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

here is a scripture that seperates the two laws as mentioned in more detail in earlier post.

what is the law for? A: transgression

Transgression? 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

A: transgression is breaking the law there are other scriptures that make this clearer find them.

so the Law was added becasue of breaking of a law hmmm so there are two.

one law we transgressed and the other law was added becasue we transgressed but only till the seed shall come. (Jesus)

why do people quote all the texts in the new testament that talk about the law beeing done away with that we should not keep it and totally ignore the ones that say we should keep the law and honour it.

you have te either acknowledge that there is a major inconsistancy in the New Testament or there are in fact as galations says two seperate laws at least.

now the covonent New and Old. why is it that people fail to see the simplicity of the two covonents.

the Old was based on a law which was added because of breaking the ten commandments but only untill Jesus comes.

the new is Jesus who takes away our sin when we transgress the law. once Jesus came the laws that pointed to him that were about Him were done away with.

hebrews shows that it was by faith just like today that Abraham and moses etc were saved. faith in the comming of the promised seed or the new covonent. we have faith in the one who has come, Jesus Christ.

same faith just one before and one after Jesus.

are we under the law? A: no

those who follow Christ are under grace but that does not mean they dont obey Him rahter out of love which is the fullfiment of the law we uphold the law as Paul says.

Brothers and Sisters if we connect the ten commandments as only part of the old covonent then we have to get rid of all of them and no one in their right mind believes that.

my question is what do you have against the Sabbath that Jesus Gave you as a Gift. What is it that makes you fight so hard against it when it is a blessings to obey the Lord. why do you ignore all scripture that plainly shows the keeping of the Ten commandments not just nine but all ten. and hold to a few scriptures here and there that are in fact in line with what I am saying.

In Isaiah He calls the Sabbath a perpetual sighn meanng never ending sign.

Jesus said the Sabbath was for man not just jews.

the Sabbath was blessed and sanctified on the the 7th day of creation before a Jew existed.

Jesus said in matt 24 pray that your flight will not take place on the Sabbath which was pointing forward to 70 ad at the fall of jerusalem.

why would Jesus say this if the sabbath was done away with? A: he wouldent unless it was still in action.

why did paul keep the sabbath even when there was not synagog he still kept it.

The Ten commandments are the law of heaven they are promises not commands to a christian. if you love me you will not kill if you love me you will not steal. If you love me you will take joy in the day that I have blessed and made hoyl for you. etc

this is why they were stored under the mercy seat in the symbolic throne room of God. this is why it was called the ark of the testimony because the law of GOd was in it. the ark of the covonent because the mercy seat sat aobve it Jesus our mercy seat. why do we need Jesus because the law is still there and we are in constant need of the mercy of Jesus.

John saw in revelation speaking of the end when jesus comes back He saw the heaven opened and in there he saw the ark of the testimoney hmmm.

Brothers dont be fooled Jesus warned constantly and so did the apostles that we need to be carful that we dont decieve ourselves.

The antiChrist will seek to change times and laws says Daniel and thus the sabbath that is both time and a law has been changed by man. yet anyone who breakes the least of these commandments is guilty of all praise GOd for grace. not one jot or tittle has been taken away Says Jesus yet tyou go further and take a Whole commandment out. why?

what is it about the Sabbath of God that offends you?
why do you persist in your man made ways and make void tha law of GOd?

Brothers and Sisters whoever you obey that is who you serve so chose you this day weather to obey God or Man. for do we not speak of the Sabbath of GOd. has GOd not said remember to keep my Sabbath? on which is the 7th day. to be a sign between us for ever.

Do we not all serve the same Jesus who claimes to be Lord of the Sabbath? who lived by example and kept the whole ten commandment law and said that His obedienc pleased the Father for Jesus said I have kept all your commandments. and again He said If you love me you will keep my commandment and again if you keep my commandments then I will send the Holy Spirit to you.

blessings all please think about it pray about it search the scripture to see if what I am saying is true do not be decieved.

there are two classes in the end those who are against God who are angry at those who obey God and those who are with GOd here they are.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So you don't believe that God told Moses what to write down???? Do you believe that the scriptures are from God???

Here it is simply and clearly laid out in the scriptures. What law was etched in stone, again what law was etched in stone- the ten commandments, period.
2Corinthians 3:7-11
7*That old system of law etched in stone led to death, yet it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8*Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory when the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9*If the old covenant, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new covenant, which makes us right with God! 10*In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new covenant. 11*So if the old covenant, which has been set aside, was full of glory, then the new covenant, which remains forever, has far greater glory.


Let me post this just one more time.
Exodus 34:27&28
27*And the Lord said to Moses, “Write down all these instructions, for they represent the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.”
28*Moses was up on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he neither ate nor drank. At that time he wrote the terms of the covenant—the Ten Commandments—on the stone tablets.

I have nothing against the sabbath but I do recognize that it was but a mere symbol of something far greater and much more glorious.

 

[letusgo27]

So you don't believe that God told Moses what to write down???? Do you believe that the scriptures are from God???

Here it is simply and clearly laid out in the scriptures. What law was etched in stone, again what law was etched in stone- the ten commandments, period.
2Corinthians 3:7-11
7*That old system of law etched in stone led to death, yet it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8*Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory when the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9*If the old covenant, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new covenant, which makes us right with God! 10*In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new covenant. 11*So if the old covenant, which has been set aside, was full of glory, then the new covenant, which remains forever, has far greater glory.


Let me post this just one more time.
Exodus 34:27&28
27*And the Lord said to Moses, “Write down all these instructions, for they represent the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.”
28*Moses was up on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he neither ate nor drank. At that time he wrote the terms of the covenant—the Ten Commandments—on the stone tablets.

I have nothing against the sabbath but I do recognize that it was but a mere symbol of something far greater and much more glorious.

Yes I do believe what Moses wrote down all scripture is inspired.

its our understanding that differs for example I have no problem with the fact that it says the law on stone led to death because its clear that it did. that is why we need the grace of Jesus Christ so that we are no longer under the law but under CHrists grace. amen

this however does not mean that the law is gone it simply means that those who follow Jesus are no longer under its condemnation but grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

here is the point keeping the law is out of love for GOd it is not way to salvation because salvation is a gift of GOd. yet you are making the law void which is exactly what Paul spoke against.

ok now Exodus 34: 28

here is the problem and difference in understanding on this point. this is not the first appearence of the Ten commandments in fact the first was written by God Himself. now it was after this that Moses wrote the covanent.

now while the Ten commandments stand alone at first and then later the rest of the covanent was added to it as seen in galations. see the covanent was made because of the breaking or transgression of the law (Ten Commandments) therfore they are part of the covenent. in fact if we did not transgress the law we would not have needed a convenent at all.

this is why the Ten commandments are in the covenenat they are part of it the reason for it. and nothing has changed in the second in that respect. the second covenent is becasue of the Breaking of the law.
only its new and better not with the blood of animals that pointed to Jesus but with Jesus Himself. Hebrews

Honestly why would Jesus die in our place for a law that could simply be removed? He died becasue it was eternal. not one jot or tittle was abolished.

I hope I have made myself clear here but these two scripture references are totally in line with what I have already said in fact I have had to repeat myself to show that they fit.

you have not yet provided any scripture that goes against what I have said in fact it fits perfectly with my understanding of things and I question weather you are actually reading my posts or just refuting them whithout addressing the scriptures iv used. I have been trying to address your objections but then you just repeat them or bring new ones without addressing the very scriptures I am using.

why? if I am wrong then there must be a way of addressing the scriptures I have used directly. eg if I am wrong on this then I must be missing the context of the very scriptures I am using but you have not addressed them directly which makes me wonder if you can.

blessings

 

[jiggyfly]

Honestly why would Jesus die in our place for a law that could simply be removed? He died becasue it was eternal. not one jot or tittle was abolished.

I hope I have made myself clear here but these two scripture references are totally in line with what I have already said in fact I have had to repeat myself to show that they fit.

you have not yet provided any scripture that goes against what I have said in fact it fits perfectly with my understanding of things and I question weather you are actually reading my posts or just refuting them whithout addressing the scriptures iv used. I have been trying to address your objections but then you just repeat them or bring new ones without addressing the very scriptures I am using.

why? if I am wrong then there must be a way of addressing the scriptures I have used directly. eg if I am wrong on this then I must be missing the context of the very scriptures I am using but you have not addressed them directly which makes me wonder if you can.

blessings

Not a problem at all. First if you are addressing any of my posts or anyone elses for that matter, I suggest that you post the name of the person who posted it. It only causes confusion when you address a post without the poster's name.

I think you are confused about the old covenant go back and read it again the covenant was introduced with the first set of stone tablets.

Exodus 24:4-8
4*Then Moses carefully wrote down all the Lord’s instructions. Early the next morning he built an altar at the foot of the mountain. He also set up twelve pillars around the altar, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. 5*Then he sent some of the young men to sacrifice young bulls as burnt offerings and peace offerings to the Lord. 6*Moses took half the blood from these animals and drew it off into basins. The other half he splashed against the altar.
7*Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They all responded again, “We will do everything the Lord has commanded. We will obey.”
8*Then Moses sprinkled the blood from the basins over the people and said, “This blood confirms the covenant the Lord has made with you in giving you these laws.”

There were several weeks between the first set and second set of commandments.

 

[letusgo27]

Jiggyfly

Not a problem at all. First if you are addressing any of my posts or anyone elses for that matter, I suggest that you post the name of the person who posted it. It only causes confusion when you address a post without the poster's name.

I think you are confused about the old covenant go back and read it again the covenant was introduced with the first set of stone tablets.

Exodus 24:4-8
4*Then Moses carefully wrote down all the Lord’s instructions. Early the next morning he built an altar at the foot of the mountain. He also set up twelve pillars around the altar, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. 5*Then he sent some of the young men to sacrifice young bulls as burnt offerings and peace offerings to the Lord. 6*Moses took half the blood from these animals and drew it off into basins. The other half he splashed against the altar.
7*Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They all responded again, “We will do everything the Lord has commanded. We will obey.”
8*Then Moses sprinkled the blood from the basins over the people and said, “This blood confirms the covenant the Lord has made with you in giving you these laws.”

There were several weeks between the first set and second set of commandments.

OK well here is the problem I read what you have just said and I think wait a minut that still fits with my current understanding of the Law.

this is why I have asked you to address the very texts I have used because there are only two options.

1: I have used the texts I posted correctly therfore I am right on this subject.

2: I have used these texts out of context and unless someone addresses the very scriptures that I have used and shows me where I have gone wrong then why would I change?

it dosent matter how many new scriptures you keep bringing to me cause first of all I dont see them going against what I have said. so the ony way I will accept or see the possibility of being wrong, is if you can show me where I have made an error, with the texts I have used directly to form my beliefe on this subject as mentioned in earlier posts.

 

[jiggyfly]

OK well here is the problem I read what you have just said and I think wait a minut that still fits with my current understanding of the Law.

this is why I have asked you to address the very texts I have used because there are only two options.

1: I have used the texts I posted correctly therfore I am right on this subject.

2: I have used these texts out of context and unless someone addresses the very scriptures that I have used and shows me where I have gone wrong then why would I change?

it dosent matter how many new scriptures you keep bringing to me cause first of all I dont see them going against what I have said. so the ony way I will accept or see the possibility of being wrong, is if you can show me where I have made an error, with the texts I have used directly to form my beliefe on this subject as mentioned in earlier posts.

Well I am not sure if I can explain it any better then what I have already, but I will try.

You posted;

ok now Exodus 34: 28

here is the problem and difference in understanding on this point. this is not the first appearence of the Ten commandments in fact the first was written by God Himself. now it was after this that Moses wrote the covanent.

now while the Ten commandments stand alone at first and then later the rest of the covanent was added to it as seen in galations. see the covanent was made because of the breaking or transgression of the law (Ten Commandments) therfore they are part of the covenent. in fact if we did not transgress the law we would not have needed a convenent at all.

this is why the Ten commandments are in the covenenat they are part of it the reason for it. and nothing has changed in the second in that respect. the second covenent is becasue of the Breaking of the law.
only its new and better not with the blood of animals that pointed to Jesus but with Jesus Himself.

And in response to you claiming that the first issuing of the ten commandments were not part of any covenant and that moses wrote the covenant later I posted this;

Exodus 24:4-8
4*Then Moses carefully wrote down all the Lord’s instructions. Early the next morning he built an altar at the foot of the mountain. He also set up twelve pillars around the altar, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. 5*Then he sent some of the young men to sacrifice young bulls as burnt offerings and peace offerings to the Lord. 6*Moses took half the blood from these animals and drew it off into basins. The other half he splashed against the altar.
7*Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They all responded again, “We will do everything the Lord has commanded. We will obey.”
8*Then Moses sprinkled the blood from the basins over the people and said, “This blood confirms the covenant the Lord has made with you in giving you these laws.”

Which proves your theory of the ten commandments given outside of any covenant wrong.

It's a good idea when trying to make a point that you print out the
scripture in your posts to support your belief.

Now for this thread I am requiring that you print out every scripture that you are going to reference.

Now if there are any other points that you made and need to be addressed, it will be best if you can restate them again using scriptures and printed out. I apologize for any inconvenience.

 

[missi]

Yeah the Hebrews 8:1-13 it pretty much explains what I been tryin' to explain : the Law didn't die, but the never-ending sacrificial system, which happened to look like a joke in God's eyes because it started to become a religion, better known as Judaism, than a covenant between Him and man -- which was why He sent His Son, Christ Jesus, to establish a brand new covenant - which is why we have a personal relationship with the Lord.

those who follow Christ are under grace but that does not mean they dont obey Him rahter out of love which is the fullfiment of the law we uphold the law as Paul says.

Brothers and Sisters if we connect the ten commandments as only part of the old covonent then we have to get rid of all of them and no one in their right mind believes that.

Amen letusgo27.

Okay now I have to stop replying to you people. You already got FinalCry's replies, my replies, letusgo27's replies, and all other people's replies -- I can't continue replying anymore. It's turning into a debate and Satan's riding along with it. I don't want him to do that and get in between my relationship with the Lord. I just pray that the Lord may open your eyes. Please stop insisting that the Law has been done away with. Romans 3:31 explains that. Galatians 6:7 supports that. What has been done away with at the Cross was the sacrificial system and the eternal condemnation for those who miss out.

Please just please take into consideration that if we are free to disobey the Sabbath, it is only correct, and the Lord is a God of correctness, to also disobey the others after it -- which pretty much means we'd be allowed to murder other people.

God bless you.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yeah the Hebrews 8:1-13 it pretty much explains what I been tryin' to explain : the Law didn't die, but the never-ending sacrificial system, which happened to look like a joke in God's eyes because it started to become a religion, better known as Judaism, than a covenant between Him and man -- which was why He sent His Son, Christ Jesus, to establish a brand new covenant - which is why we have a personal relationship with the Lord.



Amen letusgo27.

Okay now I have to stop replying to you people. You already got FinalCry's replies, my replies, letusgo27's replies, and all other people's replies -- I can't continue replying anymore. It's turning into a debate and Satan's riding along with it. I don't want him to do that and get in between my relationship with the Lord. I just pray that the Lord may open your eyes. Please stop insisting that the Law has been done away with. Romans 3:31 explains that. Galatians 6:7 supports that. What has been done away with at the Cross was the sacrificial system and the eternal condemnation for those who miss out.

Please just please take into consideration that if we are free to disobey the Sabbath, it is only correct, and the Lord is a God of correctness, to also disobey the others after it -- which pretty much means we'd be allowed to murder other people.

God bless you.

I agree it has become a debate and it is obvious that at this point and time that some including yourself have chosen to ignore scriptures that contradict your position and that is sad. But I do however agree with you that it is best for you to stop replying here in this thread. Grow in the grace of our lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Gracealone]

The law is God's requirement of the old covenant between God and Israel. Do you understand what a covenant is? It is a contract between two or more parties. The old contract or covenant was broken by Israel many times and legally was no longer binding to God but God is graceous and sent His Son to fulfill Israel's part of the contract so now God held up His end and their end also. It has been fulfilled now by Christ meaning all the requirements have been satisfied. Would you continue to make payments to the bank after repayment was fulfilled?

Now I know some will say that the ten commandments are not part of the old covenant but scriptures clearly state that the ten commandments are very much a part of the old covenant as I posted before.


Exodus 34:27&28
27*And the Lord said to Moses, “Write down all these instructions, for they represent the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.”
28*Moses was up on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he neither ate nor drank. At that time he wrote the terms of the covenant—the Ten Commandments—on the stone tablets.

Amen jiggyfly

One point you made clear, and may be missed is the Law was a covenant between God, and Israel.......the gentiles are not included in that, but as I posted above, there was no such burden placed on them ,(the gentiles) but abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, abstain from blood, and fornication.......my paraphrase.... :embarasse
I would rather rest under the wings of my Lord, than revert back to an old covenant that wasn't even meant for me.

We keep his precepts because we love him, not out of a rule of thumb, as we use to say.