BROTHERSINARMST4G said:
This is how I explain it, without taking a whole century
http://www.loveofchrist.info/theology/trinity.html
Regards,
Paul
The Trinity - True or False
- Thread starter Nugget
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This is how I explain it, without taking a whole century
http://www.loveofchrist.info/theology/trinity.html
Regards,
Paul
Createdtoworship
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 90
i dont know about all that im no theologist or anything but this is what i know. when i say my prayers its not okay lord can i please talk to jesus now? no.. when im talking to one im talking to all three and i know that scripture in john1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with od and the word was god. jesus is the son of god and he is God made manifest. He lowered himself and was like us for the purpose of saving us. thats what i know. father,son and holy ghost.
RE: Trinity..true or false
Hello,
There are many books out there on thr origin of the trinity doctrine. Please find several and read them. Pagan egyptians long before the time of the Messiah believed in a trinity god, and a Christian trinity did not arise until hundreds of years after the time of the Apostles...and even then it was hotly debated.
I believe that if you give the Bible to someone who has never heard of the trinity, and ask them to read it thoroughly many times through, that person will not come away believing in a three-in-one God. And if the Bible does not teach this doctrine, then where has it come from?
Please consider the following passages:
John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
How could The Messiah truthfully say these statements if He Himself was also God?
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
God is Spirit, Jesus was flesh and anointed by God with His Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God, then what He told the Samaritan woman in John 4 above surely did not help teach that to her.
Mark 15
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
If Jesus is God, why is He praying, and is He praying to Himself? Also notice what He plainly says. Eternal life is to know that Yahweh, The Father, is the one and only true God. Amen!
Who did Paul believe was God?
Romans 15
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Notice that the title "Lord" does not mean "God". It can be used for God, but it mainly means "Master".
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Colossians 1
3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Paul believed there was one God, the Father Yahweh, and one Lord and Master, Jesus the Messiah. When Paul speaks he is talking of one or the other. He does not combine them them.
1 Timothy 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who did Peter beleive was God?
Acts 10
37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,
The Messiah was not God, but God was WITH the Messiah. And the Father Yahweh GAVE His Son His Holy Spirit and Power. If the Son was indeed God, then apparently Peter did not know this even after the Messiah arose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. If Peter did believe in a trinity, this surely is hard to tell that by what he says here.
Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Here, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit fills Peter and causes him to make a bold speech to a crowd. Does Peter tell the crowd about a trinity god? Does Peter explain with wisdom to these people that God is really three and they must worship a trinity? No. Nothing like that is mentioned. He says that God chose Jesus of Nazareth, approved of Him, appointed Him, anointed Him with power to do God’s work. If there was any truth to the trinity, surely Peter would have preached that here. Yet, many in this crowd believed what He preached, were baptized and received the Holy Spirit while believing that God is one, and that Jesus was the Messiah sent by God. This is very unlike churches today which force new converts to believe in a trinity before joining the church.
Several have mentioned in this thread about the Messiah saying that He and the Father are one, and therefore a trinity.
John 10
30 I and the Father are one.
When “two are one” in the Bible, it seems to mean that those two agree. It does not mean they are actually one being. When two are in complete agreement, they can act as one. They think alike and act alike, which describes the relationship between The Messiah, the Son, and Yahweh the Father.
1 John 5
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
If you still wonder if this is correct, we must remember that The Messiah prayed that all His followers become “one”:
John 17
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one;...
The Son and The Father are one, and we are one in Him…does that mean that we are all part of the trinity too? No, of course not. It means we all become in agreement, of one heart and mind, one true love for Yahweh our Creator.
Some have also mentioned th euse of the Hebrew word 'Elohim" in the book of Genesis. In the Old Testament the word “God” is translated from the Hebrew word “Elohim”, which is consdiered a plural form of “god” in Hebrew. Some people say that this proves that God is more than one person.
But, that certainly would not make sense. Why would a god who is plural describe Himself so often in the Scriptures as being “one”? Besides this, in Hebrew, many words are written in their plural form and yet do not mean more than one. They are plural in form, but not plural in meaning.
For instance, in 1 Samuel 5:7 the word used for God is “elohim”, but the word used for the false god dagon is “elohim” also. And that verse clearly is talking about the one god called dagon, and yet the plural form of the word “god” is used. So, saying that God considers Himself to be more than one, based on the use of the plural word elohim, does not stand. Furthermore, in Genesis, when God says “Let us make man in our image”, the plural pronouns us and our are added by the English translators. That verse could easily be translated as “I will make (from the Hebrew word Asah) man (Hebrew word Adam) in My image (Hebrew word tselem). So the translation does cause confusion. Even in Nehemiah 9:18, when the object spoken of is the ONE molten calf which is called “thy God”, the original word is elohim. So plural forms of Hebrew words obviously do not mean they are plural in meaning.
Even though the Messiah is not God, we are still to praise and honor Him.
John 5
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Acts 5
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
We are to honor The Messiah as we would honor The Father. But that does not mean The Son is God. We honor Him because God has given all authority over to Him. He is our High Priest and King and Savior!
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Hebrews 3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
So The Messiah is reigning now, but does He reign forever? His kingdom is forever but we are told by Paul that YAHWEH takes over at the end of time:
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
There are a lot of “he’s” used in this passage, but carefully keep track of them. The verse is about the Son and the Father. If The Son, The Messiah, is God Himself, why would the Messiah, who is reigning now, have to hand over His Kingdom to God at the time of the end? Why would the Son be subject unto God the Father if the Son was actually God? If the Son was God, then God would be reigning already and there would be no need for a change of hands.
Please study and pray about this carefully! The truth does matter!
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Romans 10
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
God wants us to know Him….in fact, if we are to be saved we must know Him. And He rewards those who seek after Him and worship Him in Spirit and Truth. By looking to The Messiah and learning from Him, we are learning about God. And we must not just say we have faith and rest idly on that. For The Messiah says that on judgment day many will call Him “Lord, Lord”, but He will not accept them into the eternal kingdom (Matthew 7:21-27). Why? Because He did not recognize them. And therefore, they must not have ever known Him nor the one true God YAHWEH, even though they paid Him lip service (Matthew 15:8).
Is it not interesting that in all the examples given in the New Testament of people believing in The Messiah and being converted to the true faith, there is no mention of them having to state that they believed in a trinity. The Apostles did not withhold a person from being baptized until after they claimed faith in the trinity. The new converts said they believed that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah sent from God, and they were baptized.
Yet today, the modern christian churches require people to state that they believe in a trinity before they can join their church. If this requirement is not in the Bible, and if the earliest church did not do it, then where did it come from?
In the Messiah's glorious name!
Hello,
There are many books out there on thr origin of the trinity doctrine. Please find several and read them. Pagan egyptians long before the time of the Messiah believed in a trinity god, and a Christian trinity did not arise until hundreds of years after the time of the Apostles...and even then it was hotly debated.
I believe that if you give the Bible to someone who has never heard of the trinity, and ask them to read it thoroughly many times through, that person will not come away believing in a three-in-one God. And if the Bible does not teach this doctrine, then where has it come from?
Please consider the following passages:
John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
How could The Messiah truthfully say these statements if He Himself was also God?
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
God is Spirit, Jesus was flesh and anointed by God with His Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God, then what He told the Samaritan woman in John 4 above surely did not help teach that to her.
Mark 15
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
If Jesus is God, why is He praying, and is He praying to Himself? Also notice what He plainly says. Eternal life is to know that Yahweh, The Father, is the one and only true God. Amen!
Who did Paul believe was God?
Romans 15
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Notice that the title "Lord" does not mean "God". It can be used for God, but it mainly means "Master".
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Colossians 1
3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Paul believed there was one God, the Father Yahweh, and one Lord and Master, Jesus the Messiah. When Paul speaks he is talking of one or the other. He does not combine them them.
1 Timothy 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who did Peter beleive was God?
Acts 10
37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,
The Messiah was not God, but God was WITH the Messiah. And the Father Yahweh GAVE His Son His Holy Spirit and Power. If the Son was indeed God, then apparently Peter did not know this even after the Messiah arose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. If Peter did believe in a trinity, this surely is hard to tell that by what he says here.
Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Here, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit fills Peter and causes him to make a bold speech to a crowd. Does Peter tell the crowd about a trinity god? Does Peter explain with wisdom to these people that God is really three and they must worship a trinity? No. Nothing like that is mentioned. He says that God chose Jesus of Nazareth, approved of Him, appointed Him, anointed Him with power to do God’s work. If there was any truth to the trinity, surely Peter would have preached that here. Yet, many in this crowd believed what He preached, were baptized and received the Holy Spirit while believing that God is one, and that Jesus was the Messiah sent by God. This is very unlike churches today which force new converts to believe in a trinity before joining the church.
Several have mentioned in this thread about the Messiah saying that He and the Father are one, and therefore a trinity.
John 10
30 I and the Father are one.
When “two are one” in the Bible, it seems to mean that those two agree. It does not mean they are actually one being. When two are in complete agreement, they can act as one. They think alike and act alike, which describes the relationship between The Messiah, the Son, and Yahweh the Father.
1 John 5
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
If you still wonder if this is correct, we must remember that The Messiah prayed that all His followers become “one”:
John 17
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one;...
The Son and The Father are one, and we are one in Him…does that mean that we are all part of the trinity too? No, of course not. It means we all become in agreement, of one heart and mind, one true love for Yahweh our Creator.
Some have also mentioned th euse of the Hebrew word 'Elohim" in the book of Genesis. In the Old Testament the word “God” is translated from the Hebrew word “Elohim”, which is consdiered a plural form of “god” in Hebrew. Some people say that this proves that God is more than one person.
But, that certainly would not make sense. Why would a god who is plural describe Himself so often in the Scriptures as being “one”? Besides this, in Hebrew, many words are written in their plural form and yet do not mean more than one. They are plural in form, but not plural in meaning.
For instance, in 1 Samuel 5:7 the word used for God is “elohim”, but the word used for the false god dagon is “elohim” also. And that verse clearly is talking about the one god called dagon, and yet the plural form of the word “god” is used. So, saying that God considers Himself to be more than one, based on the use of the plural word elohim, does not stand. Furthermore, in Genesis, when God says “Let us make man in our image”, the plural pronouns us and our are added by the English translators. That verse could easily be translated as “I will make (from the Hebrew word Asah) man (Hebrew word Adam) in My image (Hebrew word tselem). So the translation does cause confusion. Even in Nehemiah 9:18, when the object spoken of is the ONE molten calf which is called “thy God”, the original word is elohim. So plural forms of Hebrew words obviously do not mean they are plural in meaning.
Even though the Messiah is not God, we are still to praise and honor Him.
John 5
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Acts 5
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
We are to honor The Messiah as we would honor The Father. But that does not mean The Son is God. We honor Him because God has given all authority over to Him. He is our High Priest and King and Savior!
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Hebrews 3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
So The Messiah is reigning now, but does He reign forever? His kingdom is forever but we are told by Paul that YAHWEH takes over at the end of time:
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
There are a lot of “he’s” used in this passage, but carefully keep track of them. The verse is about the Son and the Father. If The Son, The Messiah, is God Himself, why would the Messiah, who is reigning now, have to hand over His Kingdom to God at the time of the end? Why would the Son be subject unto God the Father if the Son was actually God? If the Son was God, then God would be reigning already and there would be no need for a change of hands.
Please study and pray about this carefully! The truth does matter!
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Romans 10
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
God wants us to know Him….in fact, if we are to be saved we must know Him. And He rewards those who seek after Him and worship Him in Spirit and Truth. By looking to The Messiah and learning from Him, we are learning about God. And we must not just say we have faith and rest idly on that. For The Messiah says that on judgment day many will call Him “Lord, Lord”, but He will not accept them into the eternal kingdom (Matthew 7:21-27). Why? Because He did not recognize them. And therefore, they must not have ever known Him nor the one true God YAHWEH, even though they paid Him lip service (Matthew 15:8).
Is it not interesting that in all the examples given in the New Testament of people believing in The Messiah and being converted to the true faith, there is no mention of them having to state that they believed in a trinity. The Apostles did not withhold a person from being baptized until after they claimed faith in the trinity. The new converts said they believed that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah sent from God, and they were baptized.
Yet today, the modern christian churches require people to state that they believe in a trinity before they can join their church. If this requirement is not in the Bible, and if the earliest church did not do it, then where did it come from?
In the Messiah's glorious name!
God three in one? two examples of how that could be true!
Very interesting thread.
God being three persons in one??.........I will show how in these two examples;
Water, Ice and Steam- God is the Ice, Jesus is the water and the Holy Spirit is the steam. The three are in different forms but can become the same.
Ice can become water, water, when boiled turns to steam.Water can be frozen and turn back into ice.
Another example...Sun, Light and Warmth- God is the Sun, Jesus is the Light that comes from the sun and if you stand in the sun long enough, you can feel its warmth and that is like the Holy Spirit.
Now....notice in the first example water, ice and steam can become eachother
but yet they are 3 different forms. God(Ice) melted and became Jesus(water) but still the ice(God) remained in Heaven while Jesus dripped from Him as water onto the earth. When Jesus left the earth, the water remained and was boiled and so became steam(HolySpirit)
In the second example the Sun(God) can not change its form into light. It remains the same. The sun has one pupose, to give the seasons,night and day,to give light(Jesus) to the earth and to warm(Holy Spirit) the earth. So they, God, Jesus and the Holyspirit are not the same.They have different forms but have one purpose towards the earth and they all work in unison. The sun cannot give wamth without giving light and we wouldnt have either if the sun wasnt in the sky.
So which example describes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Where did the word trinity come from because it is not stated in the bible?
Was Jesus clearly God in the flesh?
Jesus says He is the Alpha and Omega. the beginning and the end
In colossians ch 1 v15 -19 it says, speaking of Jesus, everything was made through Him, By Him and for Him.He is the exact likeness of the unseen God. It also says He exsited before all things and in Him all things hold together
In Hebrews ch 1 it says that Jesus is the exact representation of the glory of God. He is the exact imprint and very image of Gods nature
But yet, He sits at the right hand of the Father, so it is clear that they are seperate.
My personal opinion?? I take the water, ice and steam example but others may see God more like the sun, light and warmth example
Who knows??? All i know is Jesus is my Lord and saviour and He was the sacrifice for my sin. I am saved by grace and i have put my faith in what i have heard the Holy Spirit say to me. He is the one that brings us into all truth.
I strongly believe we should only worship and pray to God in Jesus` name being led by the Spirit. We should not include our prayers to anyone else, for example, Mary, The saints or angels. We are to Worship God alone and put no idols before Him and love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
So what do you think of my interpretations and opinions??
Very interesting thread.
God being three persons in one??.........I will show how in these two examples;
Water, Ice and Steam- God is the Ice, Jesus is the water and the Holy Spirit is the steam. The three are in different forms but can become the same.
Ice can become water, water, when boiled turns to steam.Water can be frozen and turn back into ice.
Another example...Sun, Light and Warmth- God is the Sun, Jesus is the Light that comes from the sun and if you stand in the sun long enough, you can feel its warmth and that is like the Holy Spirit.
Now....notice in the first example water, ice and steam can become eachother
but yet they are 3 different forms. God(Ice) melted and became Jesus(water) but still the ice(God) remained in Heaven while Jesus dripped from Him as water onto the earth. When Jesus left the earth, the water remained and was boiled and so became steam(HolySpirit)
In the second example the Sun(God) can not change its form into light. It remains the same. The sun has one pupose, to give the seasons,night and day,to give light(Jesus) to the earth and to warm(Holy Spirit) the earth. So they, God, Jesus and the Holyspirit are not the same.They have different forms but have one purpose towards the earth and they all work in unison. The sun cannot give wamth without giving light and we wouldnt have either if the sun wasnt in the sky.
So which example describes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Where did the word trinity come from because it is not stated in the bible?
Was Jesus clearly God in the flesh?
Jesus says He is the Alpha and Omega. the beginning and the end
In colossians ch 1 v15 -19 it says, speaking of Jesus, everything was made through Him, By Him and for Him.He is the exact likeness of the unseen God. It also says He exsited before all things and in Him all things hold together
In Hebrews ch 1 it says that Jesus is the exact representation of the glory of God. He is the exact imprint and very image of Gods nature
But yet, He sits at the right hand of the Father, so it is clear that they are seperate.
My personal opinion?? I take the water, ice and steam example but others may see God more like the sun, light and warmth example
Who knows??? All i know is Jesus is my Lord and saviour and He was the sacrifice for my sin. I am saved by grace and i have put my faith in what i have heard the Holy Spirit say to me. He is the one that brings us into all truth.
I strongly believe we should only worship and pray to God in Jesus` name being led by the Spirit. We should not include our prayers to anyone else, for example, Mary, The saints or angels. We are to Worship God alone and put no idols before Him and love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
So what do you think of my interpretations and opinions??
Re:
Hello,
I do not believe in using examples taken from our planet to describe God. I am careful to allow Him to describe Himself through His prophets and the Messiah. So, even though water is a fascinating substance created by God, I will not make the stretch saying that therefore God is a trinity.
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after The Messiah.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 3
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
God gave Jesus His full and complete blessing of the Holy Spirit. It was without measure, without limit. Perhaps by being so anointed with the Holy Spirit, that is how Jesus reflects God the Father through Him. With God the Father’s Spirit so much at work in Jesus, that is how Jesus could say:
John 14
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Why does the fullness of the Godhead dwell in the Messiah? Because God GAVE HIM His Spirit without measure. The Messiah is God's representative to us.
Consider the following passage:
Deuteronomy 18
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Moses tells us that the Israelites were afraid to hear God speak directly to them. So, instead, God promised to send them a Prophet (Messiah) to speak for Him. Yahweh would put the words in His Prophet’s mouth. Not only this, but God would raise this Prophet out from among the people, and He would be like Moses. Now, if Jesus was God, then He certainly was not at all like Moses. The Jews expected a man to be raised from among them and be the anointed Prophet (Messiah) of God who would teach them about Yahweh (See John 4: 25 below). And if Jesus was God, then these verses make no sense because God (Jesus) would still be talking directly to the people, which is what He promised He would not do.
I believe we must allow God to describe Himself to us, and not try to make Him up ourselves. The Bible is very silent on the "trinity". Itd does not teach such a doctrine. So, that is the solid ground upon which I will stand. Some verses may seem to imply a trinity, if you are reading them with the intent to "prove" the trinity. But if you read it with an open mind, you will not find a trinity mentioned or described.
Yahweh is God. And Jesus is His Son the anointed Messiah our Savior. Hallelujah!
Hello,
I do not believe in using examples taken from our planet to describe God. I am careful to allow Him to describe Himself through His prophets and the Messiah. So, even though water is a fascinating substance created by God, I will not make the stretch saying that therefore God is a trinity.
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after The Messiah.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 3
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
God gave Jesus His full and complete blessing of the Holy Spirit. It was without measure, without limit. Perhaps by being so anointed with the Holy Spirit, that is how Jesus reflects God the Father through Him. With God the Father’s Spirit so much at work in Jesus, that is how Jesus could say:
John 14
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Why does the fullness of the Godhead dwell in the Messiah? Because God GAVE HIM His Spirit without measure. The Messiah is God's representative to us.
Consider the following passage:
Deuteronomy 18
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Moses tells us that the Israelites were afraid to hear God speak directly to them. So, instead, God promised to send them a Prophet (Messiah) to speak for Him. Yahweh would put the words in His Prophet’s mouth. Not only this, but God would raise this Prophet out from among the people, and He would be like Moses. Now, if Jesus was God, then He certainly was not at all like Moses. The Jews expected a man to be raised from among them and be the anointed Prophet (Messiah) of God who would teach them about Yahweh (See John 4: 25 below). And if Jesus was God, then these verses make no sense because God (Jesus) would still be talking directly to the people, which is what He promised He would not do.
I believe we must allow God to describe Himself to us, and not try to make Him up ourselves. The Bible is very silent on the "trinity". Itd does not teach such a doctrine. So, that is the solid ground upon which I will stand. Some verses may seem to imply a trinity, if you are reading them with the intent to "prove" the trinity. But if you read it with an open mind, you will not find a trinity mentioned or described.
Yahweh is God. And Jesus is His Son the anointed Messiah our Savior. Hallelujah!
I was in no way trying to make up God for myself.. How did you get that out of just an opinion???. I used examples in the natural to expalin the spiritual. Jesus did that all the time! It was an idea, an example, my imagination......It was not a theory or a fact! Nor was it a philosophy or vain deciet...just a thought.
Jesus uttered mystries called PARABLES. A parable is a story that has a spiritual meaning.He used the natural (eg.the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed) to expain the spiritual and that is all i was doing with the two examples. How could we liken God the creator to his creation?? If you read my post properly you would see that i said.I dont know.......but i do know Jesus as my Lord and saviour and He was the sacrifice for my sin. Who could we ever explain God?? Has anyone seen Him??? I know i havent, so i dont know......... is the trinity false or true???? maybe we will have to wait to find out when we get to heaven, unless someone finds the real Truth. I agree with you, that the trinity isnt in the bible, (the word trinity that is).........i asked 3 questions in my last post. who can answer them???
I would love to know the truth on this subject.....but who knows what the truth is??
Jesus uttered mystries called PARABLES. A parable is a story that has a spiritual meaning.He used the natural (eg.the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed) to expain the spiritual and that is all i was doing with the two examples. How could we liken God the creator to his creation?? If you read my post properly you would see that i said.I dont know.......but i do know Jesus as my Lord and saviour and He was the sacrifice for my sin. Who could we ever explain God?? Has anyone seen Him??? I know i havent, so i dont know......... is the trinity false or true???? maybe we will have to wait to find out when we get to heaven, unless someone finds the real Truth. I agree with you, that the trinity isnt in the bible, (the word trinity that is).........i asked 3 questions in my last post. who can answer them???
I would love to know the truth on this subject.....but who knows what the truth is??
jcluvsnannas
Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2005
- Messages
- 3
M Paul,,,,,,, wow what a great link you posted ,I recomend ALL to click and have a read. Cleared up a few questions and as always when reading or talking about God now I have fifty new questions. God Bless
Thanx MPaul..............after reading that great link...............i now have alot of my questions answered...i agree with what was written.
Although the word, trinity is not in the bible........everything said makes sense on that website. No one has ever really explained it to me like that before. Thats why in my last post i said.i dont really know, but gave two examples of how i kind of see that God could be 3 in one , yet the same.......Yes i believe Jesus was God in the flesh.......the main thing that really sparked me was that when the angel visited Mary.....he said, and you shall name him Jesus.....Emanuel..........God is with us.(I knew that.but the penny just dropped
That couldnt be more clear to me..........so do i think the trinity is true? YEP!!!!!!!!!
Although the word, trinity is not in the bible........everything said makes sense on that website. No one has ever really explained it to me like that before. Thats why in my last post i said.i dont really know, but gave two examples of how i kind of see that God could be 3 in one , yet the same.......Yes i believe Jesus was God in the flesh.......the main thing that really sparked me was that when the angel visited Mary.....he said, and you shall name him Jesus.....Emanuel..........God is with us.(I knew that.but the penny just dropped
That couldnt be more clear to me..........so do i think the trinity is true? YEP!!!!!!!!!
Re:
Hello,
Sorry, I thought I did answer your questions. God anointed the Messiah with His Holy Spirit beyond measure. Jesus lived a perfect life of obedience to God. By observing the Messiah, we learn about God. Therefore, it can be said that the Messiah is the perfect image of God. Notice the wording again...He is called the perfect image...He is not God Himself.
God knows the truth, and His desire is for us to know it also. And if He does so desire, then He would have revealed it to us so that we would have the opportunity to know it. And if He did this, then why are so many still wondering about who God is? God is not the author of confusion.
We learn about God by learning how He describes Himself. I trust Him more than I trust others. If we discount what has been written and set off to come up with other ideas to complement it or overrule it, then we are indeed making up our own god. Why would we think God needs to keep writing or proving Himself to us throughout all generations. He has done it once already. It is all written down in the original scriptures. The Messiah said it Himself:
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God is spirit, but the Messiah was flash and blood as we are. The Messiah said He could do nothing apart from His Father. God empowered Him, and He completely submitted Himself to Yahweh’s will.
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Yahweh is God, and the Messiah whom God sent is our King and Master. There were many opportunities for Jesus and the Apostles to educate the people about a trinity, but the scriptures only describe them teaching about one God and one Messiah, the man who is mediator between God and Man (1 Tim 2:5).
One of the best overall passages from the Bible which sheds light on this topic is found in the book of Psalms:
Psalm 89
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
I believe this long passage is God talking about His anointed Son, Jesus The Messiah. Notice the verses in bold. The Messiah is the Chosen One OUT of the people. The passage says that he Messiah will cry to Yahweh His Father and call Him His rock of salvation. If the Messiah was God, why would He need a rock of salvation?
Verse 27 speaks of The Father’s Firstborn…and notice how "first" is used? "First does not mean first chronologically, it means prominence. He is first, meaning that He is the greatest.
Later verses speak of how the Israelites will treat the Messiah, shortening the days of His life while still being a young Man…all this clearly shows that Yahweh is speaking of His Messiah in this passage. And from this passage we see another hint that the Messiah is not God, but actually a man called out of the people and specially anointed by God the Father to be His Messiah.
Another passage to look to is shown below:
Ezekiel 34
23And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken. 25"I will make with them a covenant of peace and banish wild beasts from the land, so that they may dwell securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Yahweh will be God and His chosen Shepherd, the Messiah, will be a Prince AMONG them. The Messiah will not and is not God, but He will be the Prince of Yahweh’s people. That says much, and that is directly from God.
1 Corinthians 14
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
If the doctrine of the trinity is truly from God, why is it so confusing??? If the trinity doctrine were true, it should be evident in the scriptures, and most likely stated often, just as it is stated that Jesus The Messiah is the Son of God over and over. Could it be that this is just trying to make the Bible “fit” a man-made doctrine after all?
You are asking me to believe that they just forgot to mention the trinity, or that the person writing this down neglected to include it? Or that everyone believed it back then so there was no need for them to explain it???
You agree that the word “trinity” is not used in the Bible…but those who believe in the trinity try to “read it into” the Bible nonetheless. In between the lines it is “implied”...we are told.
But what is our safest choice : Believe the plain statements of the Bible which say “God is One” or the confusing doctrinal statement of today’s churches which say “god is three and one”? God wants us to use our reason, not our imagination.
Isaiah 1:18
18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD…
Hello,
Sorry, I thought I did answer your questions. God anointed the Messiah with His Holy Spirit beyond measure. Jesus lived a perfect life of obedience to God. By observing the Messiah, we learn about God. Therefore, it can be said that the Messiah is the perfect image of God. Notice the wording again...He is called the perfect image...He is not God Himself.
God knows the truth, and His desire is for us to know it also. And if He does so desire, then He would have revealed it to us so that we would have the opportunity to know it. And if He did this, then why are so many still wondering about who God is? God is not the author of confusion.
We learn about God by learning how He describes Himself. I trust Him more than I trust others. If we discount what has been written and set off to come up with other ideas to complement it or overrule it, then we are indeed making up our own god. Why would we think God needs to keep writing or proving Himself to us throughout all generations. He has done it once already. It is all written down in the original scriptures. The Messiah said it Himself:
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God is spirit, but the Messiah was flash and blood as we are. The Messiah said He could do nothing apart from His Father. God empowered Him, and He completely submitted Himself to Yahweh’s will.
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Yahweh is God, and the Messiah whom God sent is our King and Master. There were many opportunities for Jesus and the Apostles to educate the people about a trinity, but the scriptures only describe them teaching about one God and one Messiah, the man who is mediator between God and Man (1 Tim 2:5).
One of the best overall passages from the Bible which sheds light on this topic is found in the book of Psalms:
Psalm 89
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
I believe this long passage is God talking about His anointed Son, Jesus The Messiah. Notice the verses in bold. The Messiah is the Chosen One OUT of the people. The passage says that he Messiah will cry to Yahweh His Father and call Him His rock of salvation. If the Messiah was God, why would He need a rock of salvation?
Verse 27 speaks of The Father’s Firstborn…and notice how "first" is used? "First does not mean first chronologically, it means prominence. He is first, meaning that He is the greatest.
Later verses speak of how the Israelites will treat the Messiah, shortening the days of His life while still being a young Man…all this clearly shows that Yahweh is speaking of His Messiah in this passage. And from this passage we see another hint that the Messiah is not God, but actually a man called out of the people and specially anointed by God the Father to be His Messiah.
Another passage to look to is shown below:
Ezekiel 34
23And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken. 25"I will make with them a covenant of peace and banish wild beasts from the land, so that they may dwell securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Yahweh will be God and His chosen Shepherd, the Messiah, will be a Prince AMONG them. The Messiah will not and is not God, but He will be the Prince of Yahweh’s people. That says much, and that is directly from God.
1 Corinthians 14
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
If the doctrine of the trinity is truly from God, why is it so confusing??? If the trinity doctrine were true, it should be evident in the scriptures, and most likely stated often, just as it is stated that Jesus The Messiah is the Son of God over and over. Could it be that this is just trying to make the Bible “fit” a man-made doctrine after all?
You are asking me to believe that they just forgot to mention the trinity, or that the person writing this down neglected to include it? Or that everyone believed it back then so there was no need for them to explain it???
You agree that the word “trinity” is not used in the Bible…but those who believe in the trinity try to “read it into” the Bible nonetheless. In between the lines it is “implied”...we are told.
But what is our safest choice : Believe the plain statements of the Bible which say “God is One” or the confusing doctrinal statement of today’s churches which say “god is three and one”? God wants us to use our reason, not our imagination.
Isaiah 1:18
18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD…
You Darin, have made it more confusing. I have read the link that M Paul gave in his post, and that makes more sense than your posts. Why was Jesus called Emmanuel? Which means God with us? I simply believe. IF SOMETHING SIMPLE BOTHERS YOU IT IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO COMPLICATE THINGS. JESUS SPOKE THE SIMPLE TRUTH BUT THE ONES THAT COMPLICATED EVERYTHING, SUCH AS THE PHARISSEES COULD NOT UNDERSTAND HIM.
Okay....do you believe in the rapture of the saints? Can you find that word in the bible? If there is no word rapture, where did that come from?
Who is Jesus to you then, if he is not God? why does Isaiah prophecy AND HE SHALL BE CALLED WONDERFUL COUNSELLOR, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE? i see God, Jesus and the holy spirit all mentioned in this verse.Can you?
Let the holy spirit led you into all truth Darin, and stop complicating what God made simple...........JUST SIMPLY BELIEVE IN FAITH, HE IS WHO HE SAID HE IS- I AM- said by God in the old testiment and Jesus in the new testiment.
God bless you Darin
Okay....do you believe in the rapture of the saints? Can you find that word in the bible? If there is no word rapture, where did that come from?
Who is Jesus to you then, if he is not God? why does Isaiah prophecy AND HE SHALL BE CALLED WONDERFUL COUNSELLOR, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE? i see God, Jesus and the holy spirit all mentioned in this verse.Can you?
Let the holy spirit led you into all truth Darin, and stop complicating what God made simple...........JUST SIMPLY BELIEVE IN FAITH, HE IS WHO HE SAID HE IS- I AM- said by God in the old testiment and Jesus in the new testiment.
God bless you Darin
Re:
Hello,
Some of the verses you had brought up are answered in posts by others found on this website. But I will address a few here anyway.
Do I believe in a gathering together of the saints upon the Messiah's triumphant and glorious return to this world? Yes I do. Is the word rapture used specifically in the Bible? No. But the details are still described there plainly. And there are no other verses which contradict this gathering together of the saints in any way, so I believe it will happen and do not question it.
John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Because The Messiah used the phrase “I Am” was He claiming to be God? The Messiah was talking of His pre-eminence over Abraham, not His pre-existence as God the Almighty. His mission was known before hand. He was foreordained before the world began. And God showed Abraham glimpses of what The Messiah and His Kingdom would be like. Some say that because The Messiah said “I Am” that He was hinting that He was YAHWEH because YAHWEH told Moses “I Am”. But the phrase “I Am” is used frequently throughout scripture by people and angels. See Judges 13:11, 2 Samuel 20:17, 1 Kings 13:14, John 9:9. What the Messiah was saying here was that “I am He”, I am the One God promised to Abraham and even before Abraham...I am The promised Messiah, and you must believe in Me in order to be saved (See John 8:28).
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
This verse speaks of the coming Messiah.
As mentioned in previous posts I made, God gave Jesus everything, and Jesus, although being the Son, reflected the attributes of God the Father perfectly, so that by looking at Jesus the Son, we can know what God the Father is like. This does not make Jesus God the Almighty, though.
Notice that the verse tells us what The Messiah will be called. To the Hebrews, they often named or gave titles to children and places (many times the names were never really intended to be used on an everyday basis, it was just a statement) using names that encompassed something about God and His attributes. See Isaiah 8: 3-4, Genesis 32: 28, Jeremiah 33: 16. The Messiah would be God's perfect representative on earth. He would teach the truth and always do God's will. Hence, His mighty "name" as described in this passage.
Also, we must make a point of how the term “father” is used in the Bible. It does not have a fixed definition of sorts. Paul called himself the father of those who became followers through his preaching of the gospel:
1 Corinthians 4
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in The Messiah, yet have ye not many fathers: for in The Messiah Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Philippians 2
22 But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.
And John wrote the same way:
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus The Messiah the righteous:
So, it was no blasphemy or stretch for the Apostles to call other Believers their “children”, and likewise if the Bible does call Jesus the Father of us in this Isaiah 9 passage shown above, that makes sense as well in light of how the term is used elsewhere in the Bible.
What helps me understand is to think of a business. Let's say you own a restaurant. You hire a few workers and you manage everything. But after awhile you want to hire a general manager to run everything for you. So you, the owner, hire a manager to act as your representative. To the other workers, this manager is you. Whatever he says goes and they must listen to him and do what he says. You still own the business and you still are the top guy and ultimately call the shots, but you have allowed your manager to take over in your place because you trust that he will do what you want him to do. That is how I picture God and Jesus the Messiah. Jesus is our King and High Priest, and God loves Him and trusts Jesus to do everything that God wants Him to do. So, Jesus is doing God's business in the God's Name, but God is still the Owner. The Messiah is acting like God's Agent or representative.
The Hebrews of 2,000 years ago spoke differently than we do today. Studying the Bible makes that clear. They used words differently and they described things differently. One thing we can learn from the Bible is the role of the servant, how he is an agent for the one who he serves.
Here is an example:
John 4
1 When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
The Pharisees heard that Jesus baptized many people. But actually, what that means is that the followers of Jesus baptized using the authority of Jesus. Jesus Himself did not baptize, but those disciples acting in His Name did the baptizing, and it was told as if Jesus Himself actually baptized.
Apparently, back in Bible times, when someone of authority sent a servant out to do something, it was considered as if the master did it, since the servant was only doing that which his master commanded of him. So, in the Bible, we are told that Jesus performed miracles and the Holy Spirit spoke, etc., but we are also told that God sent them both. What it all means is that, by the authority and power of God the Almighty, Jesus His Son and His Holy Spirit worked many great works and spoke many great things on God's behalf.
John 10
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Exodus 7
1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Ezekiel 31
11 I will even deliver him into the hand of the mighty one of the nations; he shall surely deal with him; I have driven him out for his wickedness.
The term “mighty one” is translated from the Hebrew word “El” which means God. ”. In Ezekiel 32:21 the word “El” is translated as “The strong”. So, in those times, people and Yahweh used the word “god” to also describe people or things that were strong and powerful over others.
So, my point of listing this passages is that we must make an effort to understand how the Herbew people spoke back then.
Here is something more from Paul. Let us see how he describes God to some pagans:
Acts 17
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
Paul taught these people about the one true God. Did he mention any concept at all that would lead these people to believe in a trinity? No. He described God, and then he warned them that they must repent or be judged by THE MAN that God appointed to be judge. God showed the world His power and promise of eternal life by raising THAT MAN, the Messiah, from the dead. Paul describes two separate beings...there is God, and the MAN whom God anointed and appointed to be the Messiah and judge.
I have posted many straight-forward examples of verses including the ones above and shown below. How are they confusing?
John 4
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus The Messiah, whom thou hast sent.
John 3
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
1 Timothy 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Acts 10
37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Mark 12
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
These should at least cause one be a bit uncomfortable and to wonder how the trinity could be true. And next, one would probably want to read books about the history of the trinity and discover where it came from and how it came to be so popular (by force). And then with much prayer and meditation on it, come to a faithful and thought-out conclusion. Faith is believing what God says He is.
So I hope that others reading these posts will consider this. And instead of reading the Bible searching for "proof" of a trinity, allow scripture to speak for itself.
1 Thessalonians 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Mark 7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,...
This shall be my last post on this thread.
Thank you.
In Yahweh and His dear Son's name, my High Priest and Savior.
Hello,
Some of the verses you had brought up are answered in posts by others found on this website. But I will address a few here anyway.
Do I believe in a gathering together of the saints upon the Messiah's triumphant and glorious return to this world? Yes I do. Is the word rapture used specifically in the Bible? No. But the details are still described there plainly. And there are no other verses which contradict this gathering together of the saints in any way, so I believe it will happen and do not question it.
John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Because The Messiah used the phrase “I Am” was He claiming to be God? The Messiah was talking of His pre-eminence over Abraham, not His pre-existence as God the Almighty. His mission was known before hand. He was foreordained before the world began. And God showed Abraham glimpses of what The Messiah and His Kingdom would be like. Some say that because The Messiah said “I Am” that He was hinting that He was YAHWEH because YAHWEH told Moses “I Am”. But the phrase “I Am” is used frequently throughout scripture by people and angels. See Judges 13:11, 2 Samuel 20:17, 1 Kings 13:14, John 9:9. What the Messiah was saying here was that “I am He”, I am the One God promised to Abraham and even before Abraham...I am The promised Messiah, and you must believe in Me in order to be saved (See John 8:28).
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
This verse speaks of the coming Messiah.
As mentioned in previous posts I made, God gave Jesus everything, and Jesus, although being the Son, reflected the attributes of God the Father perfectly, so that by looking at Jesus the Son, we can know what God the Father is like. This does not make Jesus God the Almighty, though.
Notice that the verse tells us what The Messiah will be called. To the Hebrews, they often named or gave titles to children and places (many times the names were never really intended to be used on an everyday basis, it was just a statement) using names that encompassed something about God and His attributes. See Isaiah 8: 3-4, Genesis 32: 28, Jeremiah 33: 16. The Messiah would be God's perfect representative on earth. He would teach the truth and always do God's will. Hence, His mighty "name" as described in this passage.
Also, we must make a point of how the term “father” is used in the Bible. It does not have a fixed definition of sorts. Paul called himself the father of those who became followers through his preaching of the gospel:
1 Corinthians 4
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in The Messiah, yet have ye not many fathers: for in The Messiah Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Philippians 2
22 But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.
And John wrote the same way:
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus The Messiah the righteous:
So, it was no blasphemy or stretch for the Apostles to call other Believers their “children”, and likewise if the Bible does call Jesus the Father of us in this Isaiah 9 passage shown above, that makes sense as well in light of how the term is used elsewhere in the Bible.
What helps me understand is to think of a business. Let's say you own a restaurant. You hire a few workers and you manage everything. But after awhile you want to hire a general manager to run everything for you. So you, the owner, hire a manager to act as your representative. To the other workers, this manager is you. Whatever he says goes and they must listen to him and do what he says. You still own the business and you still are the top guy and ultimately call the shots, but you have allowed your manager to take over in your place because you trust that he will do what you want him to do. That is how I picture God and Jesus the Messiah. Jesus is our King and High Priest, and God loves Him and trusts Jesus to do everything that God wants Him to do. So, Jesus is doing God's business in the God's Name, but God is still the Owner. The Messiah is acting like God's Agent or representative.
The Hebrews of 2,000 years ago spoke differently than we do today. Studying the Bible makes that clear. They used words differently and they described things differently. One thing we can learn from the Bible is the role of the servant, how he is an agent for the one who he serves.
Here is an example:
John 4
1 When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
The Pharisees heard that Jesus baptized many people. But actually, what that means is that the followers of Jesus baptized using the authority of Jesus. Jesus Himself did not baptize, but those disciples acting in His Name did the baptizing, and it was told as if Jesus Himself actually baptized.
Apparently, back in Bible times, when someone of authority sent a servant out to do something, it was considered as if the master did it, since the servant was only doing that which his master commanded of him. So, in the Bible, we are told that Jesus performed miracles and the Holy Spirit spoke, etc., but we are also told that God sent them both. What it all means is that, by the authority and power of God the Almighty, Jesus His Son and His Holy Spirit worked many great works and spoke many great things on God's behalf.
John 10
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Exodus 7
1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Ezekiel 31
11 I will even deliver him into the hand of the mighty one of the nations; he shall surely deal with him; I have driven him out for his wickedness.
The term “mighty one” is translated from the Hebrew word “El” which means God. ”. In Ezekiel 32:21 the word “El” is translated as “The strong”. So, in those times, people and Yahweh used the word “god” to also describe people or things that were strong and powerful over others.
So, my point of listing this passages is that we must make an effort to understand how the Herbew people spoke back then.
Here is something more from Paul. Let us see how he describes God to some pagans:
Acts 17
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
Paul taught these people about the one true God. Did he mention any concept at all that would lead these people to believe in a trinity? No. He described God, and then he warned them that they must repent or be judged by THE MAN that God appointed to be judge. God showed the world His power and promise of eternal life by raising THAT MAN, the Messiah, from the dead. Paul describes two separate beings...there is God, and the MAN whom God anointed and appointed to be the Messiah and judge.
I have posted many straight-forward examples of verses including the ones above and shown below. How are they confusing?
John 4
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus The Messiah, whom thou hast sent.
John 3
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
1 Timothy 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Acts 10
37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Mark 12
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
These should at least cause one be a bit uncomfortable and to wonder how the trinity could be true. And next, one would probably want to read books about the history of the trinity and discover where it came from and how it came to be so popular (by force). And then with much prayer and meditation on it, come to a faithful and thought-out conclusion. Faith is believing what God says He is.
So I hope that others reading these posts will consider this. And instead of reading the Bible searching for "proof" of a trinity, allow scripture to speak for itself.
1 Thessalonians 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Mark 7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,...
This shall be my last post on this thread.
Thank you.
In Yahweh and His dear Son's name, my High Priest and Savior.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
No man has seen space at any time; only matter, begotten out of space, which is in-existed by and exists throught space declares its dementionality. Energy and motion, which constitute matter, presupose space: motion assumes change of locality. Time comes from mater in motion. As material events move from locality to locality through space temperal duration is sent forth. This universe requires first space, the source or fountain out of which matter is the begotten in its bossom. Physical time too is co-eval with space and matter, and its whole durative reality writ in God's book befor it began. The universe exists in a triune fashion: each property is rightly a whole of the physical universe and yet not the other properties at the same time. Remove space: mater and time are gone. Remove time: matter and space are gone. Remove matter: space and time are gone. Space is a triunity: each deminsion is all of space but not the other 2: remove any one and space is gone. Matter is a triunity: energy is not seen; it is revealed in motion ceating physical change tracked over time. Time is triune: in the beginning the future was all that time is, the present is all that time is, and the past is all that time is. If a future did not exist, a present could not manafest it, nor could a past proceed from the future through the present and give it history. How 3 can be 1, co-eval and co-equil and yet not be each other in their very essence as to how they exist is not a mystery; it is clearly seen.
I believe in the trinity, not because of the above, but I recognised the above because I believed in the trinity....its as good physics as it is theology. ...DGB
No man has seen space at any time; only matter, begotten out of space, which is in-existed by and exists throught space declares its dementionality. Energy and motion, which constitute matter, presupose space: motion assumes change of locality. Time comes from mater in motion. As material events move from locality to locality through space temperal duration is sent forth. This universe requires first space, the source or fountain out of which matter is the begotten in its bossom. Physical time too is co-eval with space and matter, and its whole durative reality writ in God's book befor it began. The universe exists in a triune fashion: each property is rightly a whole of the physical universe and yet not the other properties at the same time. Remove space: mater and time are gone. Remove time: matter and space are gone. Remove matter: space and time are gone. Space is a triunity: each deminsion is all of space but not the other 2: remove any one and space is gone. Matter is a triunity: energy is not seen; it is revealed in motion ceating physical change tracked over time. Time is triune: in the beginning the future was all that time is, the present is all that time is, and the past is all that time is. If a future did not exist, a present could not manafest it, nor could a past proceed from the future through the present and give it history. How 3 can be 1, co-eval and co-equil and yet not be each other in their very essence as to how they exist is not a mystery; it is clearly seen.
I believe in the trinity, not because of the above, but I recognised the above because I believed in the trinity....its as good physics as it is theology. ...DGB
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CleanHeart
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Yes, I believe!
rosewolf18
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This is truly interesting. The points you brought up are good ones. You are trying to comprehend God with logical thinking. Our humans brains were not created to understand everything that God is. There is not logical explaination to the Trinity. Or the virgin birth. or the resurecction. Hosea marrying the prostitute. The end times. The Elizabeth's and Sarah's pregnancy. Evil things in the world... There is so much that I cannot bring to mind that doesnt make sense.
This, my friend, is why we call it faith. I dont have to understand it with my finite mind. I dont have to understand everything about God. I just have to believe that the bible is from God. If it is written there, why should I doubt it? You may think I am following blindly, but agian, that is faith.
I liked this poll. It made me think hard. And search myself.
This, my friend, is why we call it faith. I dont have to understand it with my finite mind. I dont have to understand everything about God. I just have to believe that the bible is from God. If it is written there, why should I doubt it? You may think I am following blindly, but agian, that is faith.
I liked this poll. It made me think hard. And search myself.
Word of Life
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- 558
I have done a lot of study on this subject and I agree with Darin on this one.
Joh 14:28 Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, I go up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, Why do you say I am good? no one is good but one, and that is God.
Mat 12:46 While he was still talking to the people, his mother and his brothers came, desiring to have talk with him.
Mat 12:47 And one said to him, See, your mother and your brothers are outside, desiring to have talk with you.
Mat 12:48 But he in answer said to him who gave the news, Who is my mother and who are my brothers?
Mat 12:49 And he put out his hand to his disciples and said, See, my mother and my brothers!
Mat 12:50 For whoever does the pleasure of my Father in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Constantine the great and the Nicaean Council
The Council of Nicaea formulated mainstrean christian thought for the next 1700 years. What rile did the unbaptized, opportunistic Emperor Constantine play?
By 325 C.E. the Christian church had deteriorated into a number of groups, each holding differing views. One of the main areas of contention was with regard to the nature of Jesus Christ. Was Jesus really God or was he the son of God? To try to solve the problem Roman Emperor Constantine summoned all of the bishops in the Empire to a great Council to be held at Nicaea. About 300 of them showed up. This was a small fraction of those invited.
Constantine was not a Christian. He was only baptised as one as he lay on his death bed. Like his father before him, Constantine was a worshipper of the Unconquered Sun. His acceptance of Christianity and it’s promotion as the state religion was primarily a matter of military pragmatism. He had earlier won a stunning victory against his opponent Maxentius in the Battle of Milvian Bridge outside Rome with the aid, or so he believed, of the Christian Cross. From then on he became convinced that the religion of the Christ could bring him victory. His comprehension of Christian doctrine, however, was never developed.
Despite his lack of understanding of Christian matters, however, Emperor Constantine presided over the Nicaean Council. He actively involved himself in the discussions, guiding the conclusions. The bishops were naturally overawed at having their Emperor in their midst, and were unable to engage in a free and impartial debate. However, the bishops were unable to reach much consensus. After two months of logger heads over the nature of Jesus Christ, Constantine , who had basically no understanding of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology, decided the issue of Christ’s deity in favor of those who claimed that Jesus was, in fact, God. What was Constantine’s motivation in this? He was acutely aware that religious division was a real and serious threat to the established order of the Empire and was determined not to let this take place. His coming down in favor of those who saw Jesus as God was, then, a matter of Political expediency rather than theological reasoning.
The Council of Nicaea was to produce a document which was to become a basic doctrine of Christendom. It was called the Nicaean Creed and it spelled out the relationship of God to Christ as decided upon at that Council. A comment with regard to it in the fourth Century ‘History of the Greek Nation’ gives an interesting perspective on the value of the Nicaean Creed. It states, “ It ( the Nicaean Creed) shows Constantine’s indifference to doctrinal matters . . . his stubborn insistence in trying to restore unity within the church at any cost, and finally his conviction that as bishop of those outside the church he had the final say about any religious matter.’
The debates about the nature of Jesus continued long after the Nicaean Council. Those in the Church who did not uphold Christ’s Godship were even back in favor for a time. In 381 C.E. a second council was held, this time in Constantinople. Under the headship of Emperor Theodosius it confirmed the Nicaean Creed.
Joh 14:28 Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, I go up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, Why do you say I am good? no one is good but one, and that is God.
Mat 12:46 While he was still talking to the people, his mother and his brothers came, desiring to have talk with him.
Mat 12:47 And one said to him, See, your mother and your brothers are outside, desiring to have talk with you.
Mat 12:48 But he in answer said to him who gave the news, Who is my mother and who are my brothers?
Mat 12:49 And he put out his hand to his disciples and said, See, my mother and my brothers!
Mat 12:50 For whoever does the pleasure of my Father in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Constantine the great and the Nicaean Council
The Council of Nicaea formulated mainstrean christian thought for the next 1700 years. What rile did the unbaptized, opportunistic Emperor Constantine play?
By 325 C.E. the Christian church had deteriorated into a number of groups, each holding differing views. One of the main areas of contention was with regard to the nature of Jesus Christ. Was Jesus really God or was he the son of God? To try to solve the problem Roman Emperor Constantine summoned all of the bishops in the Empire to a great Council to be held at Nicaea. About 300 of them showed up. This was a small fraction of those invited.
Constantine was not a Christian. He was only baptised as one as he lay on his death bed. Like his father before him, Constantine was a worshipper of the Unconquered Sun. His acceptance of Christianity and it’s promotion as the state religion was primarily a matter of military pragmatism. He had earlier won a stunning victory against his opponent Maxentius in the Battle of Milvian Bridge outside Rome with the aid, or so he believed, of the Christian Cross. From then on he became convinced that the religion of the Christ could bring him victory. His comprehension of Christian doctrine, however, was never developed.
Despite his lack of understanding of Christian matters, however, Emperor Constantine presided over the Nicaean Council. He actively involved himself in the discussions, guiding the conclusions. The bishops were naturally overawed at having their Emperor in their midst, and were unable to engage in a free and impartial debate. However, the bishops were unable to reach much consensus. After two months of logger heads over the nature of Jesus Christ, Constantine , who had basically no understanding of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology, decided the issue of Christ’s deity in favor of those who claimed that Jesus was, in fact, God. What was Constantine’s motivation in this? He was acutely aware that religious division was a real and serious threat to the established order of the Empire and was determined not to let this take place. His coming down in favor of those who saw Jesus as God was, then, a matter of Political expediency rather than theological reasoning.
The Council of Nicaea was to produce a document which was to become a basic doctrine of Christendom. It was called the Nicaean Creed and it spelled out the relationship of God to Christ as decided upon at that Council. A comment with regard to it in the fourth Century ‘History of the Greek Nation’ gives an interesting perspective on the value of the Nicaean Creed. It states, “ It ( the Nicaean Creed) shows Constantine’s indifference to doctrinal matters . . . his stubborn insistence in trying to restore unity within the church at any cost, and finally his conviction that as bishop of those outside the church he had the final say about any religious matter.’
The debates about the nature of Jesus continued long after the Nicaean Council. Those in the Church who did not uphold Christ’s Godship were even back in favor for a time. In 381 C.E. a second council was held, this time in Constantinople. Under the headship of Emperor Theodosius it confirmed the Nicaean Creed.
rosewolf18
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- Dec 12, 2005
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I believe that the Word of God is from God. So this is what I found when I did some research with some friends of mine.
Eight verses above one you gave me...
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you."
John 14:20
"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps the earth."
Genisis 1:26
"And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, 'Son, your sins are forgiven.' But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 'Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?' Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, 'Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven'; or to say 'Get up and pick up your pallet and walk'? But so that you know the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'- He said to the paralytic, 'I say to you, get up, pick up you pallet and go home.'"
Mark 2:5-11
This is what I found... in scripture... the thing I believe first and foremost.
Eight verses above one you gave me...
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you."
John 14:20
"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps the earth."
Genisis 1:26
"And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, 'Son, your sins are forgiven.' But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 'Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?' Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, 'Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven'; or to say 'Get up and pick up your pallet and walk'? But so that you know the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'- He said to the paralytic, 'I say to you, get up, pick up you pallet and go home.'"
Mark 2:5-11
This is what I found... in scripture... the thing I believe first and foremost.
Jonah2005bt
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- Oct 16, 2005
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- 617
Why argue about the Trinity?
Why do people argue about the Trinity?
As long as we believe in The Almighty GOD, Christ Jesus & The Holy Spirit, isn't that all that really matters? So what if people call it The Trinity & so what if the don't.
We all know there's a Holy Spirit, we know that Jesus excisted & that the Holy Spirit From The Almighty GOD excist in Jesus.
Wouldn't Jesus or even The Almighty GOD want us to be more concern with fact that we Worship HIM & obey the teachings, such as it is said in Matthew & in John?
Matthew 22:36-40
" `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.''
John 14:23-24
Jesus answered him, "if anyone believes in me & obeys my teachings, my Father will love him. We will come & live with him. The person who does not love me will not obey my teachings. This message that you are now hearing is not from me, but from The FATHER, who sent me."
Please, forgive me if I am wrong, I do mean well as all of you do. But I find this kind of sad, GOD has tatooed HIS loving laws into our hearts souls & minds & yet it seems as though all we do is bicker.
But please, do forgive me if I am wrong. For I too, am not perfect. It's just - it doesn't make sense to me. *genesis!
Why do people argue about the Trinity?
As long as we believe in The Almighty GOD, Christ Jesus & The Holy Spirit, isn't that all that really matters? So what if people call it The Trinity & so what if the don't.
We all know there's a Holy Spirit, we know that Jesus excisted & that the Holy Spirit From The Almighty GOD excist in Jesus.
Wouldn't Jesus or even The Almighty GOD want us to be more concern with fact that we Worship HIM & obey the teachings, such as it is said in Matthew & in John?
Matthew 22:36-40
" `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.''
John 14:23-24
Jesus answered him, "if anyone believes in me & obeys my teachings, my Father will love him. We will come & live with him. The person who does not love me will not obey my teachings. This message that you are now hearing is not from me, but from The FATHER, who sent me."
Please, forgive me if I am wrong, I do mean well as all of you do. But I find this kind of sad, GOD has tatooed HIS loving laws into our hearts souls & minds & yet it seems as though all we do is bicker.
But please, do forgive me if I am wrong. For I too, am not perfect. It's just - it doesn't make sense to me. *genesis!
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
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I agree with you Jonah. Its a shame that people argue agains the Trinity. Real shame. The proof is there that there is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Guess what? Each of the 3 amazing persons of GOD confirmed the othe persons as well!
If people would just read and study the Scriptures, it speaks for itself. The audacity to argue, debate or dare question against Scripture is hateful against GOD. To seek wisdom is to love GOD
If people would just read and study the Scriptures, it speaks for itself. The audacity to argue, debate or dare question against Scripture is hateful against GOD. To seek wisdom is to love GOD
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