What do you believe?

[KingJ]

N I can't see anyone steering away from YH then to make Him a mushy pushover..
His Wrath is as Holy As His Love

(⁠*⁠・⁠～⁠・⁠*⁠)

So your belief is that God must torture the wicked to not be a 'mushy pushover'?

That is like saying a prison warden must pull out the fingernails of inmates to prove he is not a pushover. I don't think your mind is on the topic.

 

[Twistie]

So your belief is that God must torture the wicked to not be a 'mushy pushover'?

That is like saying a prison warden must pull out the fingernails of inmates to prove he is not a pushover. I don't think your mind is on the topic.

It's my belief that God is God n He can do whatever He wants with His creation just like you can do with what ever you create..
I have no clue what He will do but I know He created and if He chooses He can destroy but He doesn't say He gonna destroy not even the the devil seems to me the devil n those who r not of God are all gonna be in the same boat so to say n I do believe Abba is very wrought with satan for messing up His kingdom.. I know most won't even seek Abba outside the books in the Bible that man put together n I do know that in one of the other books one of the angels said he felt great pity for what is instored for them..

Very simple follow Him (Immanuel ) n it'll all be good

I don't try n guess what Abba will do or won't for He said His ways n thoughts are not like ours n to try to even imagine wouldn't do Him no Justice frfr

He is all Holy plain n simple...

I can't imagine the wrath that's coming

╏⁠ ⁠”⁠ ⁠⊚⁠ ͟⁠ʖ⁠ ⁠⊚⁠ ⁠”⁠ ⁠╏

 

[amateurscholar]

This thread is to share your core personal beliefs and reasoning for them. Hoping for a fruitful and edifying discussion and a chance to learn a bit more about each other.

Please, no attacking and mocking anyone's beliefs.

I will start with mine. In no specific order.

My Denomination:

I am a Protestant, enjoy teaching from Baptist churches, member of the assemblies of God church in South Africa.

My core beliefs:

1. Jesus is the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father but by Him John 14:6
2. Saving faith to believe in Jesus being Lord is not something mustered up, it is a gift from God 1 Cor 12:3.
3. There are three ways to receive this saving faith from God. A Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17, B. Sincere servitude James 1:27 and or C. Martyrdom Rev 2:10.4
4. Scripture is the infallible word of God. Catholic bible too, the extra inclusions I believe are of God.
5. I respect all Christian denominations. Catholics too. I feel many attack with ignorance.
6. I do not believe you can be a member of the LGBTQIA++ community and expect to be in heaven one day with a God that hates sexual sin like this.
7. I believe there are mortal and venial sins and that anyone who teaches ''sin is sin, full stop'' are guilty of teaching a half truth. False teaching.
8. We are forever covered by the blood of Jesus from the moment we are born again. I am a firm believer in Once Saved Always Saved.
9. I believe the difference between someone in heaven and someone in hell is their love and or hatred of what is evil John 3:19, Rom 12:9. You will not repent, serve or die as a martyr for someone who hates what is evil when you love it.
10. Because of 9, I believe all in hell will be unrepentant sinners who love what is evil.
11. I believe hell is eternal separation and punishment. It will be as nice a place as possible from God's doing. It will be a terrible place because of who is there, and the necessary punishment sin requires from a righteous God. As such I do believe there will be many activities and even 'parties' in hell. But good luck inviting nice, caring, kind people to your parties. There are no such people in hell. All are unrepentant sinners.
12. I believe all mentally handicapped, babies who never grew up and children under the age of twenty who died, will come back and live on earth in the millennium. They will all live for a thousand years as Jesus and us saints will reign over them and ensure they receive very clean water and air. The devil will test them at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:7.
13. I believe all contentious scripture needs to be filtered through verses from prophets that defined God, prophets who knew Him much better than you or I. Namely, He is a good God Psalm 136:1, He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5, He is just, and it is unthinkable that He is wicked or will pervert justice Job 34:12.
14. If anyone's message from scripture portrays God as evil, they need to better explain themselves to clarify how they are not, or else it is a given that they are indeed a false teacher.

Teaching that highly frustrates me:

1. 5-Point Calvinism. I have extreme dislike for their message. Cherry pick and manipulate scripture to represent God as a partial Being. Portraying Him as an evil God to the lost. One of the sickest perversions around. I believe all who teach this need to take swimming lessons, as God expects them to drown themselves in the deep ocean Matt 18:6..

2. Eternal torture. God does not and never has tortured anyone who is sold out to a love of what is evil. He has only come close to those 'almost' sold out. As we see with plagues. There is no way to defend God as a good God if you teach that he tortures His enemy in hell for all eternity. Christians that teach this to a great disservice to God and Christianity. As better explained here Discussion on Torture.

3. Catholicism is evil. As explained here So tired of all the ignorant bashing of Catholics with my grievances that I believe are the only real grievances any should have, here PROBLEMS WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

4. False teachers who say sin is sin. So many do simply not care about the importance of sticking to scripture on a topic. There are many who teach that it is fine to divorce your spouse for example as 'sin is sin', and we all sin. Abandoning your spouse and messing up your children's lives is simply only another 'sin'. Sin has degrees and if you don't think so, give me a call to come to your house. I will bring a big knife, then we can test how you feel about me thinking of cutting your head off verse actually doing it.

I find your post thoughtful and refreshingly nuanced, particularly your point #5 about respecting all Christian denominations. Your willingness to defend Catholics against unfair criticism is especially noteworthy, as religious discourse often lacks such charitable understanding.

Historically I appreciate your recognition of the Catholic Bible's validity in point #4. The deuterocanonical books were part of Christian scripture for the first 1,500 years of Church history, and their removal was a relatively recent development.

Your psychological insight about hell in points #9-##Is intriguing. The concept that hell's nature stems from the character of its inhabitants rather than from divine vindictiveness aligns with classical Catholic theology about hell being, at its core, a state of chosen separation from God.

But I would respectfully offer a different perspective on point #8 (Once Saved Always Saved). I must note that this doctrine emerged relatively late in Christian history. The Catholic understanding of salvation as a process rather than a single moment has deep historical roots in early Christian thought.

Your point #13 about interpreting difficult passages through the lens of God's fundamental goodness is excellent theological methodology. This approach has been advocated by numerous Church Fathers and doctors of the Church.

Although we might differ on some theological points, your framework for understanding and discussing faith shows a genuine attempt to engage with scripture and tradition thoughtfully. I particularly appreciate your emphasis on God's goodness and justice, as this understanding can be crucial for healthy spiritual development.

Would you be interested in discussing further how early Church writings addressed some of these topics, particularly regarding the nature of salvation and divine justice?

 

[KingJ]

But I would respectfully offer a different perspective on point #8 (Once Saved Always Saved). I must note that this doctrine emerged relatively late in Christian history. The Catholic understanding of salvation as a process rather than a single moment has deep historical roots in early Christian thought.

Four things to consider on this disagreement.

1. OSAS is only true from God's perspective. Only God can judge the heart and mind at depths of intent Jer 17:9-12. God is not a fool that grafts a devil into heaven or a fool that removes a devil from heaven.

We are the fools. We can think we are saved when we are not. As 1 Cor 10:12 clearly states

1 Cor 10:12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

2. An anti - OSAS belief grossly incriminates God.

Thief next to Jesus on the cross, repents of his sins and is promised eternal bliss.

@B-A-C repents of his sins, serves God faithfully for fifty years and because he falls into mortal sin in year fifty one, he goes to eternal hell.

This is a gross perversion of justice. Why did God not 'take' BAC in year 49 of servitude? He did a lot more than the criminal next to Jesus.

Job 34:12 is crystal clear that God does not pervert justice. Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

3. An anti - OSAS belief among fundamentalists can make them mad.

A - If you truly believe you can lose your salvation, you should take up skydiving and pray someone gives you a dud parachute so that you can die early. This increases your odds of eternal bliss. The longer you live and serve the greater the chance of falling into sin.

B - If you truly believe you can lose your salvation, you should avoid preaching to sinners like prostitutes. They can tempt you into sin a lot easier than other sinners.

4. Only Catholics can keep face with an anti - OSAS belief.

By believing in Purgatory, you eliminate 'God perverting justice' in that someone like David for example, after his two mortal sins, could still come right with God.

Would you be interested in discussing further how early Church writings addressed some of these topics, particularly regarding the nature of salvation and divine justice?

Sure, post what's on your mind.

 

[KingJ]

I must note that this doctrine emerged relatively late in Christian history.

I disagree. A belief does not only start when you give it a name.

God is a God who will never leave nor forsake us Deut 31:8. And as a Christian, you are judged into heaven just as the devil was judged out of heaven. As explained here So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!.

 

[bowwow]

It's easier to post what I don't believe.
Trinity, pre-trib, and literal 6-day creationism

 

[Rhema]

It's easier to post what I don't believe.
Trinity, pre-trib, and literal 6-day creationism

Arianist or Modalist?

Just an FYI, discussion of the Trinity on this forum is... frowned upon.

So consider the question rhetorical or send a PM if need be.

Rhema

 

[Garee]

This thread is to share your core personal beliefs and reasoning for them. Hoping for a fruitful and edifying discussion and a chance to learn a bit more about each other.

Please, no attacking and mocking anyone's beliefs.

I will start with mine. In no specific order.

My Denomination:

I am a Protestant, enjoy teaching from Baptist churches, member of the assemblies of God church in South Africa.

My core beliefs:

1. Jesus is the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father but by Him John 14:6
2. Saving faith to believe in Jesus being Lord is not something mustered up, it is a gift from God 1 Cor 12:3.
3. There are three ways to receive this saving faith from God. A Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17, B. Sincere servitude James 1:27 and or C. Martyrdom Rev 2:10.4
4. Scripture is the infallible word of God. Catholic bible too, the extra inclusions I believe are of God.
5. I respect all Christian denominations. Catholics too. I feel many attack with ignorance.
6. I do not believe you can be a member of the LGBTQIA++ community and expect to be in heaven one day with a God that hates sexual sin like this.
7. I believe there are mortal and venial sins and that anyone who teaches ''sin is sin, full stop'' are guilty of teaching a half truth. False teaching.
8. We are forever covered by the blood of Jesus from the moment we are born again. I am a firm believer in Once Saved Always Saved.
9. I believe the difference between someone in heaven and someone in hell is their love and or hatred of what is evil John 3:19, Rom 12:9. You will not repent, serve or die as a martyr for someone who hates what is evil when you love it.
10. Because of 9, I believe all in hell will be unrepentant sinners who love what is evil.
11. I believe hell is eternal separation and punishment. It will be as nice a place as possible from God's doing. It will be a terrible place because of who is there, and the necessary punishment sin requires from a righteous God. As such I do believe there will be many activities and even 'parties' in hell. But good luck inviting nice, caring, kind people to your parties. There are no such people in hell. All are unrepentant sinners.
12. I believe all mentally handicapped, babies who never grew up and children under the age of twenty who died, will come back and live on earth in the millennium. They will all live for a thousand years as Jesus and us saints will reign over them and ensure they receive very clean water and air. The devil will test them at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:7.
13. I believe all contentious scripture needs to be filtered through verses from prophets that defined God, prophets who knew Him much better than you or I. Namely, He is a good God Psalm 136:1, He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5, He is just, and it is unthinkable that He is wicked or will pervert justice Job 34:12.
14. If anyone's message from scripture portrays God as evil, they need to better explain themselves to clarify how they are not, or else it is a given that they are indeed a false teacher.

Teaching that highly frustrates me:

1. 5-Point Calvinism. I have extreme dislike for their message. Cherry pick and manipulate scripture to represent God as a partial Being. Portraying Him as an evil God to the lost. One of the sickest perversions around. I believe all who teach this need to take swimming lessons, as God expects them to drown themselves in the deep ocean Matt 18:6..

2. Eternal torture. God does not and never has tortured anyone who is sold out to a love of what is evil. He has only come close to those 'almost' sold out. As we see with plagues. There is no way to defend God as a good God if you teach that he tortures His enemy in hell for all eternity. Christians that teach this to a great disservice to God and Christianity. As better explained here Discussion on Torture.

3. Catholicism is evil. As explained here So tired of all the ignorant bashing of Catholics with my grievances that I believe are the only real grievances any should have, here PROBLEMS WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

4. False teachers who say sin is sin. So many do simply not care about the importance of sticking to scripture on a topic. There are many who teach that it is fine to divorce your spouse for example as 'sin is sin', and we all sin. Abandoning your spouse and messing up your children's lives is simply only another 'sin'. Sin has degrees and if you don't think so, give me a call to come to your house. I will bring a big knife, then we can test how you feel about me thinking of cutting your head off verse actually doing it.

To be continued...................

I would think first and foremost. Who do you believe then what does each individual believe. Always two walking together in agree to one with power. Jesus the Son of man demonstrating the unseen power of the father that works in sons of God born again believers.

Satan is quick to snatch the seed of light. causes some to stumble in the dark private interpretation (personal commentaries) or called heresies.

The light that teaches Emanuel working in and with us. by his grace following the living loving commandment. That can strengthen us to seek the approval of Him not seen

The loving living commandment.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In that way some were venerating the flesh of the dying apostles above the authority of sola scriptura as if they were the teaching masters and not the unseen Father.

Apostle beautiful feet can preach prophecy. Christ the one good teaching master.

His name is Jealous he will not share his glory with dying flesh and blood under the curse of death never to rise.

In that way why Seach after the private interpretations as personal commentaries. Som good things can be gleaned to show the power of the father. In that way never attribute the works of our invisible God to dying mankind

Believers today have the same one spirit of faith (Christ's) as it is written working in us as that faithfully worked in them.

2 Corinthians 4:12-14So then death worketh in us, but life in you.; We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;;Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Christ the one Spirit of unity

 

[KingJ]

It's easier to post what I don't believe.
Trinity, pre-trib, and literal 6-day creationism

Could you provide your reasoning for not believing in these. Just a simple rational line, no need for too much detail.

My thoughts on the three are as follows:

1 - Trinity

By not believing Jesus is Lord, you make Him out to be some random person / creation who drew the shortest straw. Teaching all that it is not God that loves them but rather that He is a bit mad in that He requires the blood of some unknown random being for our salvation.

John 15:13 says that the greatest act of love is to lay your life down. This is exactly what God did as He wants a union at the maximum depth of intent with all mankind. God can do anything, even make Himself flesh, submit and subject Himself to all the temptations and pains we experience.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Please understand that I have been in many debates on this topic and know all the scripture cherry picked to support the belief, I will not be discussing that scripture here, I only wish to make the simple point that high level, it is very irrational. Hoping you can see that and reciprocate by posting a rational rebuttal.

2 - Pre-trib

Most believe this as they believe Christians will endure suffering and assume 'pre-tribbers' believe they won't.

Christians have never escaped suffering at the hand of evil people. So there will be suffering experienced whether pre-trib or mid - trib rapture. The tribulation period however is not going to be at the hands of evil people, but rather satan in the form of his creation the antichrist.

I don't believe pre-trib for these reasons.

A. It is grossly improbable and illogical to think of God abandoning us. Jesus said He will not leave us and left us with the Holy Spirit John 14:16-17. Imagine after saying that and Christianity experiencing the day of Pentecost, ordering the Holy Spirit to leave us 2 Thess 2:7 with a visible devil.

B. The criteria to come to God has changed from faith in Jesus (being Lord per 1 Cor 12:3) and His resurrection Rom 10:9 to martyrdom Rev 2:10 and rejection of the mark of the beast Rev 14:9-11. It does not matter if you shout from the mountain tops that you believe Jesus is Lord!

Please understand that I have been in many debates on this topic and know all the scripture cherry picked to support the belief, I will not be discussing that scripture here, I only wish to make the simple point that high level, it is very irrational. Hoping you can see that and reciprocate by posting a rational rebuttal.

3. 6 - Day creationism

I agree.

Whilst it did take Him 6 days to create what we have on earth. I do not believe this was day one of the earth existing. God's spirit hovered over the waters Gen 1:2.

It seems logical and rational that there be a dinosaur era before mankind. You cannot have a T-Rex with a Lion!! Imagine that.

Fallen angels are very similar to us Heb 2:7. Their fall from grace could also have involved a session on earth. We see they are able to interact with 'flesh' with something like the Nephilim.

I do believe there were random 'large animals' pre-flood as the air must have been amazing back then for people to live hundreds of years. Animals could grow really large. But certainly not a mass herd dinosaur era.

 

[Garee]

1 - Trinity

By not believing Jesus is Lord, you make Him out to be some random person / creation who drew the shortest straw. Teaching all that it is not God that loves them but rather that He is a bit mad in that He requires the blood of some unknown random being for our salvation.

John 15:13 says that the greatest act of love is to lay your life down. This is exactly what God did as He wants a union at the maximum depth of intent with all mankind. God can do anything, even make Himself flesh, submit and subject Himself to all the temptations and pains we experience.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Please understand that I have been in many debates on this topic and know all the scripture cherry picked to support the belief, I will not be discussing that scripture here, I only wish to make the simple point that high level, it is very irrational. Hoping you can see that and reciprocate by posting a rational rebuttal.

I would offer.

The Father (Creator) and Son( creation) .The dynamic dual .The "let there be" (#1)and the flesh was "God alone good "(#2) as if one work

The us in Genesis 1:26

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Not 3500 and rising his and hers gods in the likeness of dying mankind .Some call patron saints

The Father not seen pouring out his Holy Spirit life on dying flesh and blood in jeapordy of his own Spirt life.

There is no need to to try and create a earthly family .

God is not a man dying mankind) and neither is there any infalible interpreter like a Pope(daysman) set as a umpire between our Holy Father not seen and dying mankind seen

Jesus is not ashamed to call us brother sister and mother. Cal no man on earth Holy Father (Pope)

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[bowwow]

1 - Trinity

By not believing Jesus is Lord, you make Him out to be some random person / creation who drew the shortest straw. Teaching all that it is not God that loves them but rather that He is a bit mad in that He requires the blood of some unknown random being for our salvation.

That's because Jesus was fully human. I keep repeating myself on this issue. Don't expect a one-liner to exclaim the Trinitarian heresy.

Reason #1.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

What you need to realize is the hypostatic union destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says he was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that, "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

#2. The word firstborn.

Strong's... "who came into being through God prior to the entire universe of created things (R. V. the firstborn of all creation)"
firstborn - of man or beast - of Christ, the first born of all creation

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"firstborn" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."

#3. The fabricated Hypostatic Union.

This diabolical idea came in the 4th century. Trinitarians DENY the facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD381 at the council of Constantinople.

3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.

The Holy Spirit is the power of God. Consider how nonsensical this appears when one believes in trinity.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

My bible says Jesus' ministry began "in the power of the Spirit."

In Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit is identified as "the power of the Highest."

Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..." (Acts 1:8).

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Another verses...
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

If you would do a little footwork you would also see that the word HE was added by translators. The interlinear words it like this, "it-shall-be-guiding" - and 'it-shall be - speaking - and it -shall be - hearing! That's correct - IT! You can't dispute it. The KJV adds and removes more than you think.

https://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh16.pdf

Whenever the power of the holy is present, a divine being angel is also often present to administer this POWER.

I'll cover pre-trib in a bit.

 

[bowwow]

Please understand that I have been in many debates on this topic and know all the scripture cherry picked to support the belief, I will not be discussing that scripture here, I only wish to make the simple point that high level, it is very irrational. Hoping you can see that and reciprocate by posting a rational rebuttal.

Understand this and the same is true with pre-trib. I've posted this before...


Trinitarians will never come clean. There are millions of TRINITARIAN authors who over the course of 1,700 years have written countless books and articles on TRINITY. Today’s notable Trinitarians like MacArthur, Barnett, and thousands of others would NEVER admit Trinity is clearly FALSE and come out of the Trinitarian closet. Christians DO NOT admit mistakes! If they were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that throws the ‘authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors under the bus!

Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the diabolical Trinitarian closet. They did everything they did to destroy his character and reputation. E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand, his works would have never been published.

Trinity is the most divisive, destructive, and contradictory doctrine in Christianity. I believe it was devised by demons to divide the church. Thousands have been tortured and murdered for rejecting it. The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) The Protestants, many of whom label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot and/or the beast, simply adopted it into their theology.
Trinity has become a cult within Christianity. Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. That's why they, "Close the Crash Doors" and shame and shun people....just like pre-trib!

This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving millions OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity!
_____________________________________

Trinitarians have had a history of shutting down books of nontrinitarians. Over the years they've made sure to suppress any book in opposition to Trinity. Their books just didn't get published. Do you know why that is? It's more sinister than you think. They're in too deep.

More than the doctrine itself, it's about upholding their reputation and the reputation of thousands of highly respected theologians. Over the last 1,600 years the number of books, articles written, and number messages taught and preached by these highly respected and educated Theologians supporting Trinity is in the millions!

Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. They've "Closed the Crash Doors" by shunning and shaming people.

E.W Bullinger and T.D. Jakes are perfect examples. Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation.

E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would never have been published.

Bottom line...

Christians DO NOT admit mistakes. If the 'big shots' were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors!

The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have.

In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!

 

[bowwow]

3. 6 - Day creationism

I agree.

Whilst it did take Him 6 days to create what we have on earth. I do not believe this was day one of the earth existing. God's spirit hovered over the waters Gen 1:2.

It seems logical and rational that there be a dinosaur era before mankind. You cannot have a T-Rex with a Lion!! Imagine that.

Fallen angels are very similar to us Heb 2:7. Their fall from grace could also have involved a session on earth. We see they are able to interact with 'flesh' with something like the Nephilim.

I do believe there were random 'large animals' pre-flood as the air must have been amazing back then for people to live hundreds of years. Animals could grow really large. But certainly not a mass herd dinosaur era.

Most literal 6-day creationist like John Macarthur claim Noah put Dino on the ark!

 

[bowwow]

Jesus is not ashamed to call us brother sister and mother. Cal no man on earth Holy Father (Pope)

Again - let me fix this dilemma for you.

The pope has nothing to do with this.

What does "call no man father" mean - and WHO was it directed to? Does that mean I can't call my father - father? Does it mean I can't call my pastor 'pastor?' Look at who Jesus is talking about - the Scribes and Pharisees. Look at what Jesus says about them and put this all in context.

Jesus said to Jewish believers -

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

He's telling them that they should respect the scribes and the Pharisees - not because of their conduct, but because they "sit in Moses’ seat". In other words they should be respected because they hold an office of authority, ordained by God and goes on to say the Pharisees are bad examples.

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments - And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

So what's the message Jesus is getting at? The Scribes and Pharisees acted religious and loved to be seen sitting at the most honored seats in Jewish banquets, festivals, and in the synagogue. They loved titles of honor like "Rabbi and father." They loved it when people admired their 'spirituality'.

We have to put all of this in the context of what Jesus says between verses 8 - 12.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Is Jesus contradicting himself from what he said in Verse 3?

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Better translated - "Whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do."

So what is Jesus' message? Jesus is warning Jewish believers NOT to put the honor of men - (specifically the Pharisees), He is saying NOT to give excessive spiritual honor to people in authority because human honor is NOT above the honor that belongs to the Father - God.

Jesus was called Rabbi, Paul called himself father.

The message -

“But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Rhema]

1. Jesus became God in AD325 at the council of Nicaea.

Technically... Jesus was confirmed to be God. The idea was held long before 325AD by certain of the Church Fathers. It was just never expressed well under the term "Trinity" nor was it established as a central and inviolable doctrine before then. (And yet Constantine II embraced Arianism. Go figure.)

Within ten years of the Council of Nicaea, though, Constantine became convinced that Arius’s ideas fell within the pale of orthodoxy, though the exact details of Arius’s position—at least as represented to the emperor in the years following Nicaea—remain somewhat murky. What is clear, though, is that neither Constantine nor later sons such as Constans and Constantius were skilled biblical interpreters or theologians. These Roman emperors were more concemed to preserve the unity of the church than to engage in prolonged debates over what to them often seemed theological nitpicking. Manlio Simonetti, for instance, comments that Constantine was “convinced that religious peace could be assured only by a broad concentration of moderate elements” and “was as averse to some of Arius’s more radical opponents as he had been to the radicalism of the Anans.” Both Arius and Athanasius experienced Constantine’s displeasure. It was Constantine who in A.D. 335 ordered the first of Athanasius’s five exiles—the same year Arius regained the favor of the Roman emperor.​

​

In addition to the help they got from the emperors, Arius’s ideas were deeply attractive because they offered a rationally satisfying model of the relationship between the Father and the Son. Arius began with the fundamental presupposition that the divine essence is an indivisible unity, not a substance that can be divided or distributed like helpings of mashed potatoes. If this was true, how could one argue coherently that God could be divided into persons? It was impossible for God to “beget” a divine Son, for such a begetting or generation would involve dividing the inherently indivisible.​

​

Thus, the Son must be created rather than uncreated. If we were to draw a line between the uncreated divinity and all creatures—however exalted those creatures may be— the Son would necessarily be included with all other creatures. Though Arius did not question the Son’s exalted status over all creation, he could not be eternal in the same sense as the Father. “There was a time when he was not,” Arius said.​

- LINK

 

[Rhema]

Jesus said to Jewish believers -

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

He's telling them that they should respect the scribes and the Pharisees - not because of their conduct, but because they "sit in Moses’ seat".

Actually no. This is wrong. I shall be starting a thread within a couple of weeks to address this very issue.

There is a LITERAL Moses' seat in the synagogue. This is the seat in which the person who reads Moses to the congregation sits.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid (λέγω - SAY) to you (when reading MOSES from that seat) observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

(Matthew 23:2-3 KJV)

This is an instruction by Jesus to observe and do Moses.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[th1bill]

The world is crazy! Yehovah created us "in their image" and we recently die the natural or death of the Natural Man but a thourough study of all scripture reveals there is a Spirit Being that is the real person.. That spiritual person accepted the Presence and submitted to the will of Ruah over my life and because I Did that I will live forever in the Perfect Body. Our God is faithful and He is the Only Awsome Being to ever exist.

And then there is that Second Death that is promised to all who will not obey.

This condition is not chosen by Yehovah for them, they choose it for theselves because it is the Default Choice when we refuse to obey our Creator God.

 

[bowwow]

Actually no. This is wrong. I shall be starting a thread within a couple of weeks to address this very issue.

There is a LITERAL Moses' seat in the synagogue. This is the seat in which the person who reads Moses to the congregation sits.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid (λέγω - SAY) to you (when reading MOSES from that seat) observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

(Matthew 23:2-3 KJV)

This is an instruction by Jesus to observe and do Moses.

Kindly,
Rhema

Yes and pretty much what I said here...

"He's telling them that they should respect the scribes and the Pharisees - not because of their conduct, but because they "sit in Moses’ seat".

 

[Rhema]

Yes and pretty much what I said here...

"He's telling them that they should respect the scribes and the Pharisees - not because of their conduct, but because they "sit in Moses’ seat".

Sorry if I misunderstood, but your words hadn't seemed to differ from the normal Christian perspective that such "respect" means that the people should do whatever the scribes and Pharisees tell them to do.

There is a LITERAL Moses seat in the synagogues. It's not a rank or position like bishop or chairman. The person who reads Moses sits there, and only the words of Moses are read from that seat.

The word "respect" is NOT in the scripture at all.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid (λέγω - SAY) to you (when reading MOSES from that seat) observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

(Matthew 23:2-3 KJV)

This is an instruction by Jesus to observe and do Moses. It has nothing about respect because of any position.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid (λέγω - SAY) to you (when reading MOSES from that seat) observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

(Matthew 23:2-3 KJV)

They SAY Moses (Torah) but do NOT. This is clarified in the Hebrew text of Matthew, known as the Shem Tob.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The world is crazy! Yehovah created us "in their image"

Only from your perspective, Bill. Some people think the "created in their image" phrase means that God actually has a physical body because we do.

Isn't that crazy? Or do you believe that too?

Thanks,
Rhema