What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[Bill]

What sin did Judas commit? Did he steal a baby's popcorn? His betrayal must have been far worse then Peter's denial of Jesus as Jesus never said that of Peter.

I am just hammering this fact as this thread has gone in the direction of all sin is sin and we are perfect, like God. Do you believe that?

We are perfect because of Jesus. We will never be perfect / good like God Mark 10:18.

I like you already. A good challenge. (Off topic, one person who welcomed me said i would not find much debate here. Lol)
The Sin Judas commited, is that he willingly knew what he was doing, not out of fear of the crowd, as with Peter.

There are two levels of sin here. Think of it like this, in a crowd of friends at a bar, maybe you get hammered, maybe you hear an offensive story about your nieghbor, maybe your mind lingers on some hot girl. These are all verying sins. Yet none are as bad as someone who choses to be gay. Especially if you come from a Christian backround. You know it is an afront to God. You know it is against scripture and you still chose to do it. A person like this is in danger of hell.

 

[Bill]

1. Peace believes he has not sinned since being saved.

2. Agree completely with the rest of your post.

I hope he reads this. Im not saying it is not possible. All we have to do is look at my dad and Enoch. My dad walked with Jesus. And Jesus worked many miricles through my dad. My dad never took any credit. His whole heart and focus was being in love with God.

And we know the story of Enoch, Enoch loved God, and He took him.

But i am not my dad. Nor am i Enoch. I am a sinner and i know it. This might sound strange, but for myself, im glad im a sinner. For me, with the work the Lord has me doing. Knowing im a sinner keeps me grounded. I stuggle with pride.

 

[Dave M]

I like you already. A good challenge. (Off topic, one person who welcomed me said i would not find much debate here. Lol)
The Sin Judas commited, is that he willingly knew what he was doing, not out of fear of the crowd, as with Peter.

There are two levels of sin here. Think of it like this, in a crowd of friends at a bar, maybe you get hammered, maybe you hear an offensive story about your nieghbor, maybe your mind lingers on some hot girl. These are all verying sins. Yet none are as bad as someone who choses to be gay. Especially if you come from a Christian backround. You know it is an afront to God. You know it is against scripture and you still chose to do it. A person like this is in danger of hell.

Not sure I agree with you on getting hammered at the bar being a low level sin. according to scripture it is right up there with sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

 

[Born Again 2004]

How can one resist something that doesn't happen?
Can I be credited with resisting the temptation to...hijack a plane, if I never fly?

Sorry, you honesty, make no sense with that analogy.

 

[Bill]

Not sure I agree with you on getting hammered at the bar being a low level sin. according to scripture it is right up there with sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Yes, true. I wont argue with scripture. But there are different reasons why people get drunk in the first place.

There are people who write in these collumns who know about parents and family, who drink and become belligerent. And there are those who are depressed and try to drink thier sarrows away. Im not making excuses for drinking, as both become someone else for a while. And it is a wilful act as well.

Lol, ive talked myself out of my own thoughts.

Going back to Judas versus Peter. It is all in the intent. Intentions make a big difference even in Gods work i do. And also if the person regrets and seeks forgiveness. Something Peter did that Judas did not.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

How did Jesus answer?
"No, I am not going to lust after food or wealth or power?"
OR
by the Word of God (from Scripture)

Therefore, what was the actual temptation?
The food the money and the power?
OR
to do exactly as Adam did, and many others since, and disobey what God had said?
for example, 1Samuel 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which He commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

All sorts of talk about whether Jesus lusted or was enticed. I suggest that He remembered the Word of God by the Spirit, and immediately confessed it (spoke it) rather than to rebel against it and thereby sell out for the sake of carnal things.

For us, nude woman in front of face, reaction is, the Lord says, thou shalt not commit adultery, in a twinkling of the eye and we respond to that, not the hormones or urge or whatever.
A fat wad of money is hanging out of someone's pocket in a crowd of people, reaction is, the Lord says/it is written/the Lord commands thou shall not steal, in the twinkling of the eye and we respond to that, whether in obedience or in rebellion/disobedience/lawlessness.
The flesh screams out take it! think of the goodies you could buy, the help it would be!!! The Spirit whispers the word of God. As soon as the Word of God is spoken to us it ceases from being about lust and 'sin' and it is immediately about listening to, hearkening to, obeying the Word of God or .... not. If we are so stupid to rebel against the goodness of God in His provision for us to escape the temptation, it is then we begin to lust, after we have silenced the Word from our conscience.
I have yet to meet a Christian who does not know the small still voice of the Spirit at a time of temptation and who would deny that the battle is fought and won on obedience or lost through disobedience and brushing off the promptings of the Spirit.

Sin is not the problem but the result of disobedience. Sin is not the act of doing the wrong thing but the act of disobeying the Word and commandments of God. The doing wrong follows disobedience, where ever it leads.

Hereby you will be known if you love God, you will keep His commandments, you will be obedient.
You will not be guilty of rebellion and no man will be able ever to judge you of sin. By the Spirit, because of the Word, you can and will judge, righteously.

The flesh that is spoken of is the mind that has decided to follow carnal things. It will not follow Jesus.
The mind of the flesh has no interest in following and keeping and obeying the commandments of God and is incapable of hearing the things that the Spirit hears. The flesh will only ever hear things of the flesh. The Spirit speaks only of God and the things of God.
The flesh mind will consider doing things to get the gift of God and will proceed with works.
The Spirit will hear the Word of God and obey because that is what God has commanded. No other reasoning comes into it, no amount of logic can sway it nor increase it's position.

We are told to grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
At every moment and every breath, He is with us and will show us and lead us in the Way everlasting. Obey Him, for this is the Way, walk ye in it!

It is not right to blame a sinful nature for ones act of disobedience and it will not ever hold up in the court of God. Using the sinful nature talk is a cop out. We are/were sinners because we sinned. Every time we reason against the Word of God, we sin as a result. The reasoning against the word is rebellion against Him. The flesh does that sort of reasoning. The flesh fights and wars against the Spirit but thanks be to God Who has given us the victory! Never will a temptation come at any of His children without Him providing an escape via and with His Word. Not denying Him, obeying Him, is the victory. Fighting off the urge for something with every bit of strength and reason we might have will not give you the victory. It is the flesh mentality that will try that on you. Be obedient to the Spirit Who will and DOES remind you of the Word of God. It is the same victory no matter what carnal enticement might arise. It doesn't matter if it is adultery, lies, coveting, murder or theft, in any size, shape or proportion, venial, practised, thought, big or small, the victory is in obedience,

Take these thoughts with you and read some Scripture and see if they fit and open up the Word more clearly to you.
There have been a lot of lies spread around the world and in this day of the flesh and self promotion, it is no surprise to see so many Christians being fed the lies against the Spirit and the Word of God.

Jesus was obedient unto death, for us.
Now it's our turn.


Bless you all ....><>

 

[At Peace]

As do all of us here.

Sin is also done of one's free will.

When last did you sin? For how long have you been saved?

12/2004.
My salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
My repentance from sin was done in 12/2004.

 

[At Peace]

I find that question to be a little silly, "when did you last sin" . We can strive to be perfect all day long, and if you can do that GREAT. But i dont sweat it too much. The little stuff that is. I strive to do Gods will, and seek His "sponge bath" to cleanse me of those stupid moments.

But those sins that i knowingly do. Well i try my best not to.

I have fallen out of grace more times than i care to mention. Yet God still uses me for His purpose. When i would fall flat on my face, the Father would say to me. "Get up, you have work to do". And i would tell Him what a sinner i am. He would say, "We will talk later".

How long will it be before you have a REAL turn from sin?
You know, where you decide you will never sin again?

 

[At Peace]

What sin did Judas commit? Did he steal a baby's popcorn? His betrayal must have been far worse then Peter's denial of Jesus as Jesus never said that of Peter.

After repenting of his betrayal of Jesus, he killed himself.
There is no repentance of suicide.

I am just hammering this fact as this thread has gone in the direction of all sin is sin and we are perfect, like God. Do you believe that?

I believe that all sin IS sin, and that those who do turn from sin are perfect.
Those who have yet to have a REAL "turn from" sin are not yet perfect.

We are perfect because of Jesus. We will never be perfect / good like God Mark 10:18.

Wasn't Jesus perfect/good like God?
As Jesus commanded us to be perfect...like God, (Matt 5:48), we should obey.

 

[At Peace]

1. Peace believes he has not sinned since being saved.
2. Agree completely with the rest of your post.

This reminds me of Phil' 1:18..."What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."

 

[Bill]

How long will it be before you have a REAL turn from sin?
You know, where you decide you will never sin again?

My friend, i never try to sin.

Paul, who after his conversion states, "I am the worst of sinners".

I used to think that was a prideful statement. But i know better now. I know what sin does to God, i know what sin looks like. And still i fail. I can easily state, i am the worst of sinners. Much has been given to me. I have tons of authority. Yet still i fail. Not because i want to. But because it happens. This is why God gives me a sponge bath, everyday. Both inside and out. I know you dont fully understand now. In the future you will.

 

[At Peace]

My friend, i never try to sin.

Scripture gives a different conclusion.
James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
There is no sin without temptation, lust, and enticement.
No sin is accidental, so every sin committed is "tried"...done on purpose.

Paul, who after his conversion states, "I am the worst of sinners".

the scripture you site reads..."This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)
Paul is acknowledging that he is the worst of those saved by Christ, not that he still commits sin,,,much less is the worst of those who have not "turned from" sin.

I used to think that was a prideful statement. But i know better now. I know what sin does to God, i know what sin looks like. And still i fail. I can easily state, i am the worst of sinners. Much has been given to me. I have tons of authority. Yet still i fail. Not because i want to. But because it happens. This is why God gives me a sponge bath, everyday. Both inside and out. I know you dont fully understand now. In the future you will.

I have no need of understanding what I have left behind.
God offered me a way to quit committing sin, and I took that way. (Acts 2:38)
Turn from sin.
Get washed in the blood of Christ for the remission of past sins....and kill the flesh, bury it, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Now, without the old flesh, affections and lusts, I can conquer every temptation.
Thanks be to God, of whose seed I have been regenerated. (1 John 3:9).

As Jesus' blood is the only thing that can wash away sin, your "sponge bath" is of Christ's blood.
Scripture says..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.(Heb 6:4-6)
The shedding again of the blood of Christ for your bath puts Christ to shame.
Quit sinning once and for all.
That is a REAL repentance from sin.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

There are two levels of sin here. Think of it like this, in a crowd of friends at a bar, maybe you get hammered, maybe you hear an offensive story about your nieghbor, maybe your mind lingers on some hot girl. These are all verying sins. Yet none are as bad as someone who choses to be gay. Especially if you come from a Christian backround. You know it is an afront to God. You know it is against scripture and you still chose to do it. A person like this is in danger of hell.

Unto God, Sin is Sin.

 

[KingJ]

Unto God, Sin is Sin.

Prove it.

Not to be rude. But, I disagree 100% :wink:.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Prove it.

Not to be rude. But, I disagree 100% :wink:.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice it does not say some sin or certain sin but sin in general.

It is man who makes certain sins worse then others.
Example a murderer may say well at least I ain't one of those stinken adulters.

People tend to judge their action (sin) against others.
Example well at least I am not as bad as so and so.

To say a drunkered is not as bad as a homosexual is simply human reasoning .

Pocketing office supplies compared to robbing a store is far worse in human reasoning ....
BUT BOTH IS STEALING and stealing is a sin.

God said let there be no sexual sin found amongst you. So if a couple keeps their clothes on and have the same results as the couple who had no clothes.....is one worse then the other?

To God No but to man yes
Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice it does not say some sin or certain sin but sin in general.

That verse is true and an excellent stand alone verse. But you are misusing it.

I have two points to make on why:

1. Being chosen to be in God's presence VS being worthy of being in God's presence are two completely different issues. This verse speaks to the latter. I have asked you to debunk levels of sin which speaks to the former.

If we look at God in the OT. We see punishments for sins among the Jews differing between stoned to death, excommunication and warnings among others.

If we look at God in the NT / Jesus. Many who believe sin is sin quote Jesus In Matt 5:28 ''thought - adultery''. But miss Matt 5:32 ''actual adultery = grounds for divorce''.

If we look at Paul's teaching in the NT. We see 1 Cor 5 starting off with '''there is a sinner here whose sin is so terrible that not even the unsaved do it''.

You need to provide examples in scripture where a person thinking of murder is stoned to death as an actual murderer was. Or you need to debunk Paul in 1 Cor 6, where the first eight scriptures explain how we must judge disputes among ourselves properly / as we will judge the world and angels one-day. IE Do you think Paul will be impressed with ''your'' judgment skills if you said ''this guy stole that guys car, but because this guy thought of stealing the others first, they are even''.

2. ''Death'' needs to be better defined.

It simply means out of God's presence. It does not mean hell. All sin gets us out of God's presence. Some sin gets us into hell.

We know, a few OT prophets were taken to heaven. We know there was an Abraham's bosom so that someone like David would not need to live with the Canaanites / Goliath.

You cannot ignore from this discussion the ''fact'' that there was a separation of sinners in the OT. Sodom was not destroyed because people thought about adultery, murder and sexual immorality.


Why this is important to harp on:

We stumble the homosexual. We stumble the adulterer. We stumble a person fighting with a thought life. We are to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 / work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. You are creating a feel god stumbling block to many a sinner. Guilty of the second part of Prov 27:6 Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.

This is on par with Calvinists believing God is partial from Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion''. When the rest of scripture is God trying to explain that He is not partial. You need to consider the rest of scripture with Rom 6:23.

It is man who makes certain sins worse then others.

Man does. God does to. So why do some Christians not? Thoughts = sin and wages of sin = death is a separate issue / subject.

Example a murderer may say well at least I ain't one of those stinken adulters.

People tend to judge their action (sin) against others.
Example well at least I am not as bad as so and so.

To say a drunkered is not as bad as a homosexual is simply human reasoning .

Pocketing office supplies compared to robbing a store is far worse in human reasoning ....
BUT BOTH IS STEALING and stealing is a sin.

God said let there be no sexual sin found amongst you. So if a couple keeps their clothes on and have the same results as the couple who had no clothes.....is one worse then the other?

To God No but to man yes

Rom 2:6 God will repay each according to what they have done.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Being chosen to be in God's presence VS being worthy of being in God's presence are two completely different issues. This verse speaks to the latter. I have asked you to debunk levels of sin which speaks to the former.

This is one in the same.
God chose us
Christ made us worthy

Rom 2:6 God will repay eachaccording to what they have done.

Let's add 2:7 - 10 as well

6 kjv
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 kjv
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 kjv
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 kjv
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

You mentioned using a verse as a stand alone verse.
Funny how that worked out.

KJ
I am not concerned with Old Covenant ways. I live under the New Covenant between God and Man.

If you wish to categorise the levels of sin as not that bad to very bad that is your choice.

I am for one not going to approach the Father and tell Him this one is not that bad but the one Joe did, oh that's bad.

2. ''Death'' needs to be better defined.

It simply means out of God's presence. It does not mean hell. All sin gets us out of God's presence. Some sin gets us into hell.

Death is death.
It is appointed for man to die one death . That's the natural death.
However there is a second death which is separation from the Father and that ultamently leaves one he'll bound.

Repentance will cover any sin.
Sin does not get you to hell.
The worse sinner does not go to hell for his sins BUT REJECTING CHRIST is what gets you into hell.

Any way I have said all I care to say on this. I can not see any profit on debating the pecking order of sin.

Have a great week
Blessings to you

 

[Dave M]

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


then there is sin that keeps you from heaven

1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

 

[Bill]

Scripture gives a different conclusion.
James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
There is no sin without temptation, lust, and enticement.
No sin is accidental, so every sin committed is "tried"...done on purpose.


the scripture you site reads..."This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)
Paul is acknowledging that he is the worst of those saved by Christ, not that he still commits sin,,,much less is the worst of those who have not "turned from" sin.


I have no need of understanding what I have left behind.
God offered me a way to quit committing sin, and I took that way. (Acts 2:38)
Turn from sin.
Get washed in the blood of Christ for the remission of past sins....and kill the flesh, bury it, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Now, without the old flesh, affections and lusts, I can conquer every temptation.
Thanks be to God, of whose seed I have been regenerated. (1 John 3:9).

As Jesus' blood is the only thing that can wash away sin, your "sponge bath" is of Christ's blood.
Scripture says..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.(Heb 6:4-6)
The shedding again of the blood of Christ for your bath puts Christ to shame.
Quit sinning once and for all.
That is a REAL repentance from sin.

Then i am glad for you my friend. I think i wrote earlier, but i may have said it to anothsr. My dad was that way as well. He lived his life perfect in Jesus. Sinless.

It isnt impossible to be this way, i know a few others who walk the same path.

In my own life, as i said before, i am glad to be a sinner. I know it sounds odd. But i fear becoming proud. The Lord has given me so much. Let me just share a little. Spiritual warefare. I am deeply involved. I see and hear Angels.

I cant talk a lot about many things because it is plainly too deep for most. Thier faith cant handle it. I know, ive tried.

 

[Bill]

Unto God, Sin is Sin.

It is true that sin is sin. Yet not all sin is alike.

During the time of Christ. Many people were sinning. Jesus said he was a doctor. He came to help the sick. "Which is easier, to say be healed, or your sins are forgiven".
Yet he comdemned Judas before he died.

In our own world, there is human trafficing. A man who willingly buys and sells other people for his own profit is in danger of hell. A teenager who cusses the Lords name when he smacks his finger with a hammer, is not in danger of going to hell.

These are two examples of sin.

God will not punish these at the same level.