What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[KingJ]

What would we be tempted with?
No banks to rob.
No marriages to break up.
No drugs to use.
God provides all our needs.
What evil lusts could you have in heaven while you stand in front of the Father?

You assume a lot. You have yet to spend even 5 minutes meditating on free will. You don't need banks to rob, marriages to break up, drugs to use.....you just need disobedience to something God says.

I for one will refuse to live next to annoying people in heaven. You really think God will stop some from being annoying?

God is not hands on management like a tyrant. 'He let's us be'. You speak as though you will stop being a human in heaven. Do you evolve into a demigod?

In heaven a horse is a horse. A dog is a dog. A cat is a cat. An angel is an angel. A human is a human. Do you know what a human is?

 

[KingJ]

Are you opining that continuing to serve sin instead of obedience to God is NOT pride?
Are you opining that in spite of sin you are in good standing with God?
Are you opining that a false repentance from sin will amount to eternal life with God?

As you consider obedience to God as "new age teaching", do you consider continued justification of a sinful life as "old age teaching''.
.

What is opining? :wink:.

I don't consider obedience to God new age teaching. I consider humans believing they are demigods satanism in Christianity.

A Christian doesn't go on sinning in God's eyes. Christians cannot sin in God's eyes because He looks at us covered by the blood of Jesus / we are grafted in / we are children of God. This does not mean we are perfectly obedient.

You need to try understand what it takes be a child / to be a Christian. This is where you are missing the boat.

What happened to the disobedient who left Egypt?
How about to the kingdom of Israel who turned from God?
How about those who crucified Jesus?
Did they not all lose their right to abide in the promised land?
Why would you expect a better outcome this time?

In all these instances you assume a lot. God had to make examples of sinful Jews as they were His chosen people. That murderer who repented truthfully was still stoned to death. Not all who left Egypt and died in the desert went to / deserved Hades. That is like saying at the time of the flood, all except for Noah and his family went to Hades. Every child and baby deserved it? Those who crucified Jesus? Jesus forgave them.

You"re teaching us that continuation in the OT will be sufficient to gain eternal life: that continual sin, repentance, sin, repentance, sin, repentance is the normal disposition of the converted.

It is important to differentiate between mortal and venial sins. Imagine when Abraham was asking God why He was destroying Sodom, God said '''because some people stole candy from the candy store''. Why did God feel the need to drown Pharaoh and his army? A. Because this one time on band camp they ate unsanctified pigs feet, or B. They wanted to murder many innocent, abused for 400 years, upstanding people?

We sin, repent, sin, repent on venial sins. If someone commits a mortal sin, we have to grasp the depth of intent for that deed. A mortal sin shows a great depth of intent for hatred of what is good.

Where is Christ in that mess?
How come your god doesn't have the power to allow you to quit telling lies and murdering your neighbors?
To think you can sin without consequences is arrogance against God.

Why do you group lies and murdering? Have you read 1 Cor 6? Matt 5:32 vs Matt 5:28? 1 Cor 6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

If you adopted a child and the child stole an apple or told a white lie, would you say you made a mistake adopting the child? If the adopted child murdered a brother, sure.

 

[KingJ]

To think you can sin without consequences is arrogance against God.

To think you live without sin as only God does, is to make yourself equal with God.

If when you get on your knees to pray, you feel you have nothing to repent of, you need better discernment.

Perfect to God is getting on knees and repenting / chewing on what and where you can improve / better serve Him. Humans will never be perfect like God. Only ever perfect to God. Striving to be perfect like Him. Only because we love Him and want to be on that path toward Him. Which, never ends. Because we are forever a ...human. A creation. Never a god.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

perhaps all would benefit by considering whether sin is the cause or the symptom?

It might be that if you saw sin as a fruit, you could discuss this together rather than divided?

Grace and Peace ....><>

 

[Dave M]

I think not, as I don't think Jesus' nature was sinful...especially after receiving the Holy Ghost after baptism.
The devil will prey on old memories though, in his attempts to lure us away from Godliness.


Good topic for a new thread.


What would we be tempted with?
No banks to rob.
No marriages to break up.
No drugs to use.
God provides all our needs.
What evil lusts could you have in heaven while you stand in front of the Father?

@At Peace I think things like pride wear people think they are far better then they are would come to mind in your question.

I think things like failing to loving one another as we love our selfs, you see you do not have to be a killer or a bank robber to have sinned DO you know why Mosses was not allowed to go into the promise land and God took his life, just by giving himself along with God credit for bringing water out of a rock.

Jesus was the only sinless person in the bible, he was made perfect the second he was borned IMO everyone else in the bible was a sinner just like you and me. Only the pharisees went around claiming to be sinless and we know how Jesus felt aabout that.


Simpy by not loving your neighbor as yourself you have sinned, do you have any idea what that really looks like?? are you willing to lay down your life for a complete stranger that you may not even know??

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

perhaps all would benefit by considering whether sin is the cause or the symptom?

It might be that if you saw sin as a fruit, you could discuss this together rather than divided?

Grace and Peace ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

DO you know why Mosses was not allowed to go into the promise land

because he disobeyed, Dave. That's all.

about Jesus,
And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:8

 

[Br. Bear]

I'll only answer the multiple choice. (I do realize its not a question)
What we are now is B and D. We are not sinners saved by grace....We were sinners, and then we got saved by grace... and we are not sinners now...There is no way we can be a sinner and be 'the righteousness of God...'at the same time.
We are D because when we were born again, the man who was a sinner died. Then we were born again a brand new creation...The new creation was totally sinless, and this has no prior convictions.
Of course it does not say we cannot fall down, but if we do, we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (restore us to righteousness.)

@Bendito
thank you for your reply

 

[Born Again 2004]

You don't think that food was enticing after a forty day fast?

You have no clue! That is why he was perfect and you are not!

 

[Born Again 2004]

You are playing with semantics.

No, I am taking God at his word that Jesus was perfect and I'm working backwards!

 

[Br. Bear]

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1

Greetings,

Webster's definition of tempted is: have an urge or inclination to do something

While Mr Webster provided a very useful dictionary, it was and is still a book about the English language. Being a foreign tongue one needs either some Greek (in this case) or the gift of interpretation.

from Matthew 4:1
to be tempted
πειρασθηναι
peirasthēnai
to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt

πειρασθηναι verb - aorist passive middle or passive deponent
peirazo pi-rad'-zo: to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline -- assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.

◄ 3985. peirazó ►
Strong's Concordance
peirazó: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Original Word: πειράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peirazó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-rad'-zo)
Short Definition: I try, tempt, test
Definition: I try, tempt, test.

Sometimes it help a little to know what the word means as intended, not as more modern and rather loose definitions of a word are.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Post #111 contained the following..."

• Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted the devil.
• To be tempted by the Devil,,,NOT , that he was tempted!"

You seem to distance "tempted by" from "was tempted".
.Is that a defense for Jesus ?
Are you intimating that Jesus had no lusts?
James wrote..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:14)
The devil used what was in Jesus to try to get Him to sin, including a want of power, protection, and sustenance.
Jesus needs no after the fact defense, as He showed by His refusal to submit to the devil.

Being tempted is not a sign of imperfection, but it is a sign of the devil's desperation to drag one into darkness.

• So I had type-o!
• Matthew 4:1 is "highlighted"...click on it and you get the proper verse.
• Look, you seem to be inclined to say Jesus was not perfect...why?
• If Jesus was not perfect, the unblemished Lamb of God...."the perfect sacrifice"....then all is lie and we don't exist when we die! Except you, of-course, because you are perfect.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1

Greetings,

Born Again 2004 said:
Webster's definition of tempted is: have an urge or inclination to do something

While Mr Webster provided a very useful dictionary, it was and is still a book about the English language. Being a foreign tongue one needs either some Greek (in this case) or the gift of interpretation.

from Matthew 4:1
to be tempted
πειρασθηναι
peirasthēnai
to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt

πειρασθηναι verb - aorist passive middle or passive deponent
peirazo pi-rad'-zo: to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline -- assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.

◄ 3985. peirazó ►
Strong's Concordance
peirazó: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Original Word: πειράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peirazó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-rad'-zo)
Short Definition: I try, tempt, test
Definition: I try, tempt, test.

Sometimes it help a little to know what the word means as intended, not as more modern and rather loose definitions of a word are.


Bless you ....><>

• That is very good and correct but not actually needed.
• If you are a believer, then you say Jesus was perfect.
• With the Matthew 4:1 verse, clearly Jesus was "to be tempted" by Satin , not that Jesus was tempted!
• Take the stance that Jesus was perfect first and then work backwards, he therefore could not have been tempted!
• As you say above, The Devil (to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt) tempted Jesus!

 

[Br. Bear]

But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:9-10

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

may I ask how it is that Jesus can be the Son of Man and our representative in the New Covenant if He was not first tempted?
But, what really was the temptation? Saying no to something only grants you a draw not a victory. Jesus gained the victory for us. How?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Bill]

Greetings,

as the title says, what is 'Perfect' or what is 'Perfection'?

If I asked you to describe it to me, how would you do so?
When Abram was a tender 90 years old, the LORD said unto him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, and be thou perfect." from Genesis 17:1 KJV
Did Abram have trouble working out what the LORD was talking about? Perhaps Abram would be perfect if he walked before the LORD? or was being perfect another thing all together?

There is no record of Abram reading this in any written language, so how did he interpret the meaning of the LORD's words? Was it an order, as in a commandment which also can be translated or understood as being a law or if we go forward a few hundred years, Torah.

Back then the language took on a quite different form when written at all. Much like the Egyptian hieroglyphics, the Hebrew language was written in pictographs.
Perfect was written with four pictures, a cross, waves like water, an arm and hand and more water. Given that the people back then thought and spoke and lived differently to the western mindset of communicating, the whole concept of perfect and perfection would be able to be easily understood because it would be in a tangible expression of life rather than a mere abstract word that left the hearer and reader to decide for themselves depending on their own imagination.

, 'Perfect' - a cross, water, an arm and hand, water. Sounds perfect to me. How about you?

What does it mean to be perfect? And can you please explain it to me in terms that aren't abstract?


Bless you ....><>



I like using Jesus Speaks to look up Scripture... try it today!

I like to think of walking with God as just plainly reaching out with my heart, loving.

My children is a good example of that. I am always loving them, even when i have to correct them.

 

[B-A-C]

may I ask how it is that Jesus can be the Son of Man and our representative in the New Covenant if He was not first tempted?
But, what really was the temptation? Saying no to something only grants you a draw not a victory. Jesus gained the victory for us. How?

The Bible says Jesus was tempted, it doesn't say Satan "tried" to tempt Him anywhere.

Heb 2:18; For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Heb 4:15; For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

It says here, He could not be our representative unless He was tempted. Because he was tempted... He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Because He was tempted, He can sympathize with our weaknesses. Because He was tempted He can be our advocate.

Being tempted is not a sin!! It doesn't mean you are imperfect in any way. Show me a single verse in the Bible that says temptation is a sin.

Jesus had His own will, which wasn't always the Father's will.
Matt 26:39; And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Did that make Him a sinner? No. Because in the end He was obedient.

What was Jesus victory... ultimately overcoming death.. but how did He do this? If the wages of sin is death.... and Jesus never sinned... death had no power over Him.
So His victory was also in overcoming sin.

Rev 3:21; 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

If Jesus wasn't tempted, He didn't overcome sin.

 

[Br. Bear]

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 15:57

 

[Born Again 2004]

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1

Greetings,



While Mr Webster provided a very useful dictionary, it was and is still a book about the English language. Being a foreign tongue one needs either some Greek (in this case) or the gift of interpretation.

from Matthew 4:1
to be tempted
πειρασθηναι
peirasthēnai
to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt

πειρασθηναι verb - aorist passive middle or passive deponent
peirazo pi-rad'-zo: to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline -- assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.

◄ 3985. peirazó ►
Strong's Concordance
peirazó: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Original Word: πειράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peirazó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-rad'-zo)
Short Definition: I try, tempt, test
Definition: I try, tempt, test.

Sometimes it help a little to know what the word means as intended, not as more modern and rather loose definitions of a word are.


Bless you ....><>

The outcome is still the same...Satin tempted Jesus, Jesus was not tempted by Satin's temptations!

 

[Born Again 2004]

The Bible says Jesus was tempted, it doesn't say Satan "tried" to tempt Him anywhere.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

• "to be tempted" a temptation to occur in the future...by the Bible we know that it did occur and Jesus wasn't tempted to take any of the devil's temptations.
• " to be tempted by the devil"......If that is not Satin trying to temp Jesus, I don't know what is!
• Was Jesus the Lamb of God and the perfect sacrifice or not? Why don't you recognize that he was perfect in every way!