@ Ivar,
We know there is no profit in circumcision because Jesus finished the work of circumcision. Israel was given the oracle of the Mosaic Law; this is what they were taught. This is also why they were struggling to understand the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ (2Cor. 11:13). This needed milk instead of meat as they were use to the Mosaic teachings.
I'm writing a post entitled, "Must believers keep the Torah"
Hi regibassman57! Make sure your post entitled "Must believers keep the Torah" accounts for the 66 objections I've raised against your viewpoint on this subject.
If you don't account for those 66 objections, then your post will be incomplete.
Looking forward to seeing it!
blessings...
PS I'll re-post, here, those 66 objections, just in case you misplaced them....
66 PROBLEMS WITH YOUR POSITION
1. You oppose obedience to Torah. But Jesus said such opposition puts you at risk of being called least in the forthcoming kingdom (
Mt. 5:19).
2. You are a religious person who opposes Torah. But Jesus said that religious people opposed to Torah will be cast away (
Mt. 7:21-23).
3. You oppose obedience to Torah. And the consequences of Torah-lessness in
Mt. 13:41-42 are too awful for me to even think about.
4. You oppose obedience to the Torah which came form God's mouth. But Jesus said we live by EVERY word from God's mouth (
Mt. 4:4).
5. Jesus said that we should love (
Mt. 22:37) according to
Dt. 6:4-5, in which context, we learn that we should love in obedience to ALL Torah (
Dt. 6:25).
6. You claim to be "dead" to all Torah, yet Jeremiah places that very Torah into the New Covenant (
Jer. 31:33;
Heb. 8:10;
10:15-16).
7. You claim to be "dead" to Torah, yet Jesus applies Torah directly to YOU (
Mt. 22:37,
39 citing
Dt. 6:4-5 and
Lev. 19:18).
8. You claim to uphold the 10 Commandments, but obedience to the 1st commandment entails obedience to ALL the rest of Torah (yet you oppose that very Torah).
9. You routinely cite Pauline Scripture, yet you disregard the many Biblical considerations which confirm that Paul obeyed Torah and taught others to do the same.
10. The prophets (Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) routinely uphold Torah-obedience, yet you oppose the prophets by opposing the Torah which they uphold.
11. The proverbs routinely uphold Torah-obedience, thus you stand in opposition to the Proverbs as well, even though Peter and Paul quote the Proverbs as Scripture which applies to us.
12. Paul said those who obey Torah will be justified (
Rom. 2:13). You oppose Torah-obedience.
13. Paul upholds the legitimacy of Gentiles who obey Torah (
Rom. 2:27). You oppose Gentile Torah-obedience.
14. Paul said we should obey God's commands (
1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (
1 Ki. 2:3), yet you oppose many of God's commands.
15. Paul upholds the Psalms which uphold Torah, yet you oppose the Psalms and, thus, you oppose Paul's upholding of the Torah-obedient Psalms.
16. Paul says ALL Scripture (thus, including all TORAH) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior (
2 Ti. 3:16), yet you oppose that very Torah which Paul applies to you.
17. Paul believes (thus obeys) all Torah (
Ac. 24:14), but you oppose (and promote disobeying) that Torah.
18. Paul believes (thus obeys) everything in the Prophets, and the Prophets routinely uphold Torah-obedience. But you oppose that Torah-obedience which Paul modeled.
19. Paul opposed sin (
Rom. 6:15); Torah-disobedience is sin (
Rom. 3:20;
7:7); thus, Paul opposed Torah-disobedience; thus, Paul taught Torah-OBEDIENCE. But you oppose Paul here too.
20. Paul said we should live by faithfulness ("emunah" in
Hab. 2:4, cited in
Gal. 3:11), and the way of "emunah" is Torah-obedience (see "emunah" in
Ps. 119:30,
86,
138). But you oppose Torah.
21. Paul condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he walked "orderly according to the law" (
Ac. 21). You oppose such law-obedience.
22. Paul said that Torah-obedience from the heart IS THE WORD OF FAITH WHICH HE PREACHED (
Dt. 30:14 cited at
Rom. 10:8). But you oppose this Torah-obedient word Paul preached.
23. Paul affirms the New Covenant (
1 Cor. 11:25) in which Torah is to be written upon our hearts (
Jer. 31:33) so that we would obey it (
Dt. 30:14 cited in
Rom.10:8). But you oppose New-Covenant Torah which Paul affirmed.
24. Paul said we are in the flesh or in the spirit (
Rom. 8:5). The flesh DISOBEYS Torah (
Rom. 8:7). The Spirit, by contrast, leads us to OBEY Torah (confirmed, also, in
Heb. 10:15-16 and
Eze. 36:27). But you oppose the Spirit here.
25. John said we should obey God's commands (
1 Jn. 5:3) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (
1 Ki. 2:3). But you oppose obedience to such commands.
26. Stephen (full of the Spirit and wisdom, grace, power, wonders, and signs,
Ac. 6) was falsely accused of being anti-Torah (
Ac. 6:13). Thus, Stephen was truly pro-Torah. Yet you oppose this Spirit-authenticated New-Covenant-era testimony of the martyr Stephen.
27. Peter applied
Lev. 11 to Christians (
1 Pe. 1:16), but you evidently oppose this too.
28. Jesus stated that Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (
Lk. 10:25-28), but you have chosen to disagree with Jesus.
29. Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Gr. "grammateus",
Mt. 23:34) to properly represent his Torah-upholding Torah-teaching ministry. You, however, oppose Torah-teachers sent by Jesus.
30. Our DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon",
Col. 2:14) is cancelled, not TORAH. Torah is not debt. "Torah" is "nomos" (in Greek), not "cheirographon". You have not proven that Torah is debt. Thus, you have not justified your interpretation of
Col. 2:14.
31. Of COURSE Jesus fulfilled the Torah! But that's not an excuse to disobey it! "Fulfilled" does not entail "canceled" or "terminated" or "no longer in force". You haven't justified your interpretation of "fulfilled". You can fulfill your marriage covenant today, and does that fulfillment TERMINATE the marriage? Of course not! The marriage goes on!
32. Of COURSE a permanent once-for-all sacrifice (
Heb. 10:10) is superior to animal sacrifices, but Torah STILL requires that they be offered (
Heb. 10:8), and that same Torah passes directly into the NEW Covenant (
Heb. 10:15-16).
33. Of COURSE the Old Covenant (which is obsolete,
Heb. 8:13) is taken away and replaced with the second (NEW) Covenant (
Heb. 10:9). But the SAME Torah passes into the New Covenant (
Jer. 31:33;
Heb. 8:10;
10:15-16).
34. You evidently oppose Torah-sanctioned Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activity, but some of the 1st-century believers were animal-sacrificing priests! (
Ac. 6:7). Thus, you oppose 1st-century church practice.
35. You evidently oppose Torah-sanctioned Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activity, but THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers were zealous for Torah (
Ac. 21), thus zealous for Torah sacrifices. Again, you oppose 1st-century church practice.
36. Jesus desired that the temple be a house of prayer for all nations (
Mk. 11:17), citing
Is. 56:7 which entails Torah-sanctioned animal sacrifices. Yet you evidently oppose those sacrifices which Jesus desires.
37.
Dt. 30:1-8 is a FUTURE prophecy of 100% full Torah-obedience. Sadly, you oppose this prophecy too.
38. Ezekiel says the Spirit properly compels people to OBEY Torah (
Eze. 36:27). Sadly, you oppose this function of the Spirit.
39. Ezekiel says a future temple will be replete with animal sacrifices (
Eze. 40-47). Sadly, you evidently oppose this ceremonial/Levitical/sacrificial activity God guarantees for the future.
40. Isaiah says Levitical activity will be restored in the future (
Is. 66). Sadly, you apparently oppose this prophecy too.
41. Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (
Mal. 3). Sadly, you evidently oppose restoration of Levitical Torah service which Jesus comes to restore.
42. The Davidic Covenant absolutely assures the restoration of fully functioning Levitical activity (
Jer. 33). Sadly, you evidently oppose this prophecy too.
43. The entire PLANET will (in the FUTURE) be required to send people to participate in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (
Zec. 14). Evidently you oppose this prophecy too.
44. You wrongly assume that the character of Christ is expressed in the 10 commandments (but not the written Torah of Moses).
45. You have wrongly identified the nature of the fruit of the Spirit and its relationship to Torah. You have also evidently not addressed this problem with your position.
46. You claim "The second is not according to the first." Indeed! We Israelites widely DISOBEYED Torah in the Old Covenant (
Heb. 8:9), but we will OBEY Torah from the heart (
Heb. 8:10) in the New Covenant. Different covenants, same Torah! (
Jer. 31:33)
47. Nothing in
Ac. 15 states that believers should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER being saved through the grace of Jesus. The four rules are an entrance requirement (
Ac. 15:20), not an exit exam! And, Paul (present in
Ac. 15) taught and obeyed Torah (as I've shown), which you oppose, sadly.
48. Of COURSE you do well to obey
Lev. 19:18 (
Jas. 2:8). But James ALSO said that God's grace extends to those who are HUMBLE (
Jas. 4:6); and humble people OBEY Torah (
Nu. 12:3;
Ps. 25:9;
Zep. 2:3). But you oppose Torah.
49. Of COURSE we are justified by the blood of Christ (
Rom. 5:9). But that same Christ (and His apostles) teach us to obey Torah....yet you oppose Torah.
50. You have not shown me a single good reason to suppose a single law of Torah has been "done away with". And,
Mt. 5:19 plainly says that if you "do away" with even the smallest of Torah commands, then you may be LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom (
Mt. 5:19). I don't understand why you would want to do that.
51. You say: "We as believers are dead to all the Mosaic Law (the Torah) "except" the Commandments of Love " But that's a contradiction! LOVE for God (
Dt. 6:4-5) entails obedience to ALL Torah (
Dt. 6:25); John agrees (
1 Jn. 5:3).
52. Love for Jesus entails obedience to His commands (
Jn. 14:15), and Jesus commanded obedience to His teachings (
Mt. 28:19-20) which include TORAH-Teachings (
Mt. 4:4;
5:19;
7:21-23;
22:37;
23:2-3,
23,
34;
Lk. 10:25-28). But you oppose this Torah-obedient love which Jesus commands.
53. Of COURSE we are dead to the law of sin and death (
Rom. 8:2) because we already died in Christ (
Rom. 7:4) to that law (
Gal. 2:19). But that's no excuse to ignore the Torah of righteousness (
Dt. 6:25) and life (
Dt. 30:19) which Paul applies to you (citing
Dt. 30 at
Rom. 10:8) and which is taught and commanded by that same Christ, as I've shown here.
54. Torah is holy (
Rom. 7:12); we should be holy (
1 Pe. 1:16). Thus we should obey Torah. But you oppose this Torah holiness.
55. Torah is righteous (
Rom. 7:12); we should DO righteousness (
1 Jn. 2:29;
3:7). Thus, we should do Torah. But you oppose this Torah righteousness.
56. Torah is good (
Rom. 7:12); we should do good (
Gal. 6:10); thus we should do good in obedience to Torah. But you oppose this Torah goodness.
57. Nothing in
Rom. 7 states that all Christians should ignore all Torah except the "love" command. Such an interpretation fails to account for all pertinent Pauline data, as I've shown. And, the "love" command (e.g.,
Dt. 6:4-25) entails obedience to all Torah anyway! You must interpret ALL Pauline data consistently, not just a few passages (and then ignore others).
58. You wrote: "You are teaching righteousness comes by the law. Jesus is not teaching this." Then read
Mt. 5:20 again! Our works of Torah-obedient righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees so as to enter the forthcoming kingdom.
And again, Jesus APPLIES
Dt. 6 to you (which states that Torah-obedience is righteousness which we DO). Sadly, you missed this context of
Dt. 6.
59. Of COURSE righteousness does not come by FAITHLESS works of law (
Gal. 2:16,
21). But that's no excuse to neglect your duty to FAITHFULLY do works of Torah-obedience, as required in Scripture, even by Paul (
Dt. 30:14 cited in
Rom. 10:8).
60. Of COURSE we oppose adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (
Gal. 5:2-3), because it's not even commanded by God (
1 Cor. 7:19). But that's no excuse to ignore infant circumcision which Paul never opposed (
Lev. 12:3).
61. Of COURSE those who seek to be justified by law (
Gal. 5:4) without faith (
Gal. 5:5) are wrong! But, that's no excuse to not walk in FAITHFUL obedience to the Torah of the New Covenant in which you participate, as required by Paul (
Dt. 30:14 cited by Paul in
Rom. 10:8).
62. You uphold the doctrine of Christ (
2 Jn. 1:9), yet that SAME CONTEXT upholds obedience to God's commands (
2 Jn. 1:6) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (
1 Ki. 2:3) which you, tragically, oppose. Thus, you don't even interpret the broader context of that passage consistently.
63. You wrote: "The "doctrine of Christ" is not teaching believer are required to keep the whole Law of Moses." So Jesus was just joking in
Mt. 5:19, applying the very SMALLEST of Torah commands to you? Of course Jesus was not joking! Why do you refuse to address this passage?
64. You do try to pick a few passages from Scripture to seek to support your position, but unless you address all my Biblical objections to your interpretations, and unless you address these other problems in your position (detailed here in this post), then you have NOT done a good job of setting forth a more comprehensive and consistent Biblical theological position, relative to mine.
65. You claim our discussion is "fruitless". However, bad fruit (
Mt. 7) is likened unto lawlessness (
Mt. 7:21-23). Good fruit (e.g., "pistis",
Gal. 5:22-23) is from TORAH ("pistis" in
Mt. 23:23, commanded by Jesus). So, I set before you the FRUITFUL benefits of growing in faithful obedience to Torah, as required by God, the Messiah, the Spirit, the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles, Gospels, Hebrews, even in Revelation.
666. The antichrist desires Torah-lessness (
2 Th. 2:3). You also seek to promote an anti-Torah viewpoint. Yikes! Please stop working for the wrong team!
