Who goes through the tribulation?

[Hekuran]

Somehow we have drifted from "who goes thru it"... to "what is it".

Direct answer then: most Christians throughout the ages including our time -- until Jesus returns.

 

[Sue D.]

You're talking about the 7 yr. Tribulation time that is in the future. The rapture will take place 1st so that all born-again believers will be up and out of here .

 

[B-A-C]

You're talking about the 7 yr. Tribulation time that is in the future. The rapture will take place 1st so that all born-again believers will be up and out of here .

Why does some one persist in saying exactly the opposite of what the Bible says?

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

"after the tribulation" ... AFTER ... not before. There is no passage in the Bible anywhere that says before. But here are two that specifically say .. "after".
.. after the tribulation.. then He will gather up the elect.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

The first tribulation is to the Jews, then after “the tribulation of those days” begins God’s wrath on the entire world.

I wrote a thread on it below….

2 separate tribulation periods

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world. But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture. In Romans 2:9 we...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[B-A-C]

Direct answer then: most Christians throughout the ages including our time -- until Jesus returns.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will happen again.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

It's just my way of thinking, is something is "the worst it's ever been". Then it's not the same as every other day.
If I say, this is the hottest week we've ever had, but the same temperature it's been for the last 300 years, well then it's not really any different from any other time.

But if it really is different, if it really is hotter.. well then it's not the same as the last 300 years.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

B.A.C. I noticed in your first few posts you included Matthew and Marks accounts but you did not include the account in Luke.

The account in Luke is Key to understanding when “the tribulation of those days” starts and ends in connection with the “fullness of the Gentiles” and the 6th seal signs.

This is where the wrath of God begins on the whole world.

You are doing a good job in piecing this mystery together, you just need a few more pieces in order to see the whole picture. Peace

 

[Sue D.]

The first tribulation is to the Jews, then after “the tribulation of those days” begins God’s wrath on the entire world.

I wrote a thread on it below….

2 separate tribulation periods

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world. But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture. In Romans 2:9 we...

www.talkjesus.com

Where do you find that in scripture that the 1st tribulation is for the Jews? And especially why does God pour out His wrath on the entire world ?!

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Where do you find that in scripture that the 1st tribulation is for the Jews? And especially why does God pour out His wrath on the entire world ?!

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

God pours out His wrath upon the world because it is evil.

 

[Hekuran]

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will happen again.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

It's just my way of thinking, is something is "the worst it's ever been". Then it's not the same as every other day.
If I say, this is the hottest week we've ever had, but the same temperature it's been for the last 300 years, well then it's not really any different from any other time.

But if it really is different, if it really is hotter.. well then it's not the same as the last 300 years.

I believe this is prophetic hyperbole -- describing events in over-the-top terms for dramatic effect. You can see similar in Isaiah 34, the prophecy of the destruction of Edom. Edom was destroyed, but stars did not literally dissolve and the smoke of its destruction has long since passed.

Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
The Lord is angry with all nations;
his wrath is on all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will stink;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.
The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.

For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there

In Matthew's gospel Jesus is prophesying the 70ad judgement of Jerusalem in similar terms.

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 21:10; Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
Luke 21:11; and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
Luke 21:12; "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
Luke 21:13; "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
Luke 21:14; "So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves;
Luke 21:15; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.
Luke 21:16; "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,
Luke 21:17; and you will be hated by all because of My name.
Luke 21:18; "Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
Luke 21:19; "By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Luke 21:20; "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Luke 21:21; "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
Luke 21:22; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23; "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
Luke 21:24; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:25; "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Luke 21:26; men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luke 21:27; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28; "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

I don't have a problem with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70ad. But it is far from the worst thing to happen in the world. Things have happened just this year alone worse than the fall of Jerusalem.
One medium sized city in Israel, is a relatively minor event in the last two millennia. It is important in prophecy yes. But it isn't a global event by any means.

The two phrases missing in this passage... "gather up His elect". No mention of gathering up here.
..and the "greatest tribulation that the world has ever seen since the beginning of the world, and never be another as great after this". ( my paraphrase )

In any case... Jesus did not come back "in a cloud with power and great glory" ( verse 27 above ) in 70ad, or any time after that... at least not yet.

There is some debate about verse 24, did that end in 1948? Or is it still happening today?

 

[B-A-C]

I believe this is prophetic hyperbole -- describing events in over-the-top terms for dramatic effect. You can see similar in Isaiah 34, the prophecy of the destruction of Edom. Edom was destroyed, but stars did not literally dissolve and the smoke of its destruction has long since passed.

When exactly did the smoke if it's destruction pass?

Isa 34:1; Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples! Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
Isa 34:2; For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.
Isa 34:3; So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.
Isa 34:4; And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5; For My sword is satiated in heaven, Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
Isa 34:6; The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
Isa 34:7; Wild oxen will also fall with them And young bulls with strong ones; Thus their land will be soaked with blood, And their dust become greasy with fat.
Isa 34:8; For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Isa 34:9; Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10; It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
Isa 34:11; But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.
Isa 34:12; Its nobles—there is no one there Whom they may proclaim king—And all its princes will be nothing.

Edom the descendants of Esau, modern day Jordan, possibly the Southern part of Israel. There have been wars in that part of the world. But it has never been totally destroyed.
I would say this passage has yet to happen. At best it is a dual prophecy of two different events.

I've never been to the middle east or Jordan, but it's my understanding parts are green and beautiful.

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www.enicbcmed.eu

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Luke 21:10; Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
Luke 21:11; and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
Luke 21:12; "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.

It is important to note in verse 21 where Jesus says “But before all these things” Jesus is showing what will happen to the Jews before those end time events happen.

Luke 21:13; "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
Luke 21:14; "So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves;
Luke 21:15; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.
Luke 21:16; "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,
Luke 21:17; and you will be hated by all because of My name.
Luke 21:18; "Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
Luke 21:19; "By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Luke 21:20; "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Luke 21:21; "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
Luke 21:22; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23; "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
Luke 21:24; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Notice the start point happens at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad and runs all the way to the fullness of the Gentiles. This tribulation period above is to the Jews as Jesus said.

Luke 21:25; "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Luke 21:26; men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

This is the 6th seal signs that happen “after the tribulation of those days” which was first to Jew as Paul said. This also marks the fullness of the Gentiles, and the beginning point of Gods wrath on the whole world.

Luke 21:27; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28; "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

I don't have a problem with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70ad. But it is far from the worst thing to happen in the world. Things have happened just this year alone worse than the fall of Jerusalem.
One medium sized city in Israel, is a relatively minor event in the last two millennia. It is important in prophecy yes. But it isn't a global event by any means.

The two phrases missing in this passage... "gather up His elect". No mention of gathering up here.
..and the "greatest tribulation that the world has ever seen since the beginning of the world, and never be another as great after this". ( my paraphrase )

Here is what you need to keep in mind. Not all tribulation is physical. For instance the war on many of the saints and them being overcome by Satan is spiritual.
Also some mix the two separate tribulations into one single event. There is a time of trouble still to come, such as has never been seen. Notice in Daniel…
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

We know this event is still future because it speaks of the saints being resurrected at that time.

In any case... Jesus did not come back "in a cloud with power and great glory" ( verse 27 above ) in 70ad, or any time after that... at least not yet.

There is some debate about verse 24, did that end in 1948? Or is it still happening today?

Verse 24 speaks of the tribulation of the Jews “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. This is what Paul called the “fullness of the Gentiles” after which ungodliness shall be removed from Jacob.

We know this has not happened yet because the event will be marked by the 6th seal signs, with the sun, moon and stars as Jesus said.

And don’t let the time of 42 months throw you off course, because it is a sign of time. God uses a very symbolic language, even when describing time.

You are on the right track, just ask the Lord to give you understanding in it and He will. If I can be of any assistance just let me know. Peace.

 

[Hekuran]

I don't have a problem with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70ad. But it is far from the worst thing to happen in the world. Things have happened just this year alone worse than the fall of Jerusalem.

Yes, that's why I believe it's Jesus using deliberately overblown language to make his warning clear. I've shown that this was a well known prophetic literary style.

I've read these gospel passages many, many times and I've never found a way of putting it all together so that every piece fits neatly. Remember Jesus said "this generation will not pass until all these things are accomplished."

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 16:8-11 . .Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, causing it t
scorch everyone with its fire. Everyone was burned by this blast of heat, and they
cursed the name of God, who sent all of these plagues. They did not repent and
give him glory.

. . .Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his
kingdom was plunged into darkness. And his subjects ground their teeth in anguish,
and they cursed the God of heaven for their pains and sores. But they refused to
repent of all their evil deeds.

Pharaoh stiffened his resolve during those miraculous events in the book of Exodus,
but to my knowledge he never once cursed God. Well these folks in Revelation
show just how hostile and militant the human heart can really be in its resistance to
God's demands. Pretty amazing.
_

 

[B-A-C]

Remember Jesus said "this generation will not pass until all these things are accomplished."

I find it interesting, the way you separate figurative hyperbole and literal verses.
Did "this generation" literally mean within the next 30-35 years?

GENERATION, LENGTH OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

How Many Years Is A Jewish Generation?

Aaron, the first High Priest of Israel, represents the 26th generation from Adam, and the 40 notional "generations" of 100 years each represent the 26th generation.Table of contents1. how many years is a generation?2. how long is 14 generations...

www.chicagojewishnews.com

How long is a generation in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

How long is a generation in the Bible? Is a generation in the Bible 40 years? What are the different uses of the word generation in the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

..which in that case, if He was "only" talking about the destruction of Jerusalem... He missed His prophecy by 7 or 8 years.

 

[Dave M]

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"immediately "AFTER" the tribulation, Jesus will send forth His angels to gather up the elect. It would seem if you aren't one of the elect, you won't be gathered up.

I have read this verse a thousand times probably and not until recently did I wonder does Jesus come before the start of the Great Tribulation?? I always thought we were gathered up at the end right before the battle. But the battle does not happen until after the great tribulation.

My understanding is first 3.5 is the tribulation

second 3.5 years is the great tribulation

Jesus even makes this distinguishing
Revelation 2:22+ ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

So if Jesus comes and gathers up his elect at the end of the tribulation is that at the midway point of the 7 years, is now my question?

because if we look at the great multitude that is coming out of the tribulation in revelation it makes sense that these people were raptured out maybe
Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and races and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;


A lot of people say we are not to face God's wrath, I agree,. But these same people say God's wrath is the tribulation, I disagree to a point. God's wrath is not mentioned until Seal 7 in chapter 6. And God has and can will protect his people from his wrath.


And one that thing I hear all the time that drives me crazy is people say the great hope is pre trib rapture, THat takes the glory away from Jesus. My great hope is in Jesus no matter when he comes or what I have to go through my hope remains in Jesus. And I hope he gives me the power strength and will to Die for him if if comes down to that.

 

[Hekuran]

I find it interesting, the way you separate figurative hyperbole and literal verses.
Did "this generation" literally mean within the next 30-35 years?

GENERATION, LENGTH OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

How Many Years Is A Jewish Generation?

Aaron, the first High Priest of Israel, represents the 26th generation from Adam, and the 40 notional "generations" of 100 years each represent the 26th generation.Table of contents1. how many years is a generation?2. how long is 14 generations...

www.chicagojewishnews.com

How long is a generation in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

How long is a generation in the Bible? Is a generation in the Bible 40 years? What are the different uses of the word generation in the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

..which in that case, if He was "only" talking about the destruction of Jerusalem... He missed His prophecy by 7 or 8 years.

I believe that in Hebrew thought a generation was 40 years, derived from the 40 years wandering in the desert. But tbh I've nothing to back that up.

Maybe better to take it to mean something like "many of you will see these things in your lifetime."

Not pretending I have all the answers here.

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 16:12 . . And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river
Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the
east might be prepared.

That is curious because in modern warfare; rivers, and even oceans, present no
obstacle to military aircraft. But where are the airplanes in Revelation; and where
are all the mechanized conveyances? Well; there are none, and in point of fact, war
in Revelation is portrayed as fought on horseback and armies move on foot. I have
an uneasy feeling that the way of life with which us modern folks are accustomed is
coming to an end.
_

 

[B-A-C]

where
are all the mechanized conveyances? Well; there are none, and in point of fact, war
in Revelation is portrayed as fought on horseback and armies move on foot. I have
an uneasy feeling that the way of life with which us modern folks are accustomed is
coming to an end.

Perhaps you are right, the other thought here is... there really were no words to describe jeeps, tanks, at that time.
Perhaps the flying scorpions ( Rev 9 ) are drones? Perhaps the 200 million horsemen that breathe fire are military ATVs ? Maybe the tails are gun barrels ?
.. but I honestly don't know.

 

[B-A-C]

My understanding is first 3.5 is the tribulation

second 3.5 years is the great tribulation

I think this is the predominant teaching currently. The verses below are commonly used to divide the two periods into roughly 3 1/2 years each.

Rev 11:2; "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 13:5; There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 12:6; Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Dan 7:25; 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 12:7; I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Rev 12:14; But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Dan 12:11; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

This last verse, that talks about the length of time the abomination of desolation is in place could be a clue. Jesus says it will happen again.
Matt 24:15; Mark 13:14; which in Dan 12:11 is a little longer than 3 1/2 years. Except there's one big problem here. The temple in Jerusalem didn't keep standing for 3 1/2 years.
Most scholars think the siege was about five months. -- Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) - Wikipedia
...and besides there is no record of any Roman officials sacrificing anything in the temple in 70ad ( or the next 2 1/2 years afterward ).