Rhema
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Which one?
Calling lightning down from the sky?
Exorcising a critter out of a man in deep distress?
Raising one from the dead?
Any one of the healings?
This should not be done in open forum.
Rhema
Can i not be Christian and Saved?
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Calling lightning down from the sky?
Exorcising a critter out of a man in deep distress?
Raising one from the dead?
Any one of the healings?
This should not be done in open forum.
Rhema
Rhema
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Well that's a SOL God. Unable to send anybody else.... too bad. God loses again.
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Subject Heading:- 'Can I not be Christian and Saved?'
Almost thou persuadest me
to be a Christian.'
(Acts 26:28)
'Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.'
(1 Peter4:16)
' Then Agrippa said unto Paul,
Almost thou persuadest me
to be a Christian.'
(Acts 26:28)
'Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.'
(1 Peter4:16)
Thanks for the reply. .
I am repeating . They knew not of eating "doing the will" . Hearing it is not doing it. They had the rest of their lives to learn how to rightly divide the parables and understand what it means to eat meat as a spiritual understanding.
John 4:33-35 King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (the hidden manna spoken of in Revelation 2:17
I am not accusing you of doing it but making it aware. All believers are in a special class (born again) all receive the same reward "eternal life." . .
The word apostle simply means "sent messengers". Sent with thoughts not of their own self .. .called prophecy .
God forbids we give them any credit for the work he performs in them . There are still apostles (sent ones) today.
Apostles are considered as nothing no power (faith). The first listed apostle and martyr was Abel in Genesis 4
It would be no different then sending a young person to a store with a list and ask him not to add or subtract from it.
God causes the growth or increase if any .(1 Corinthian 3
we receive nothing from the apostles moved by God. I use gold as the good or golden measure. . Not literal seen as the measure of men .It represents the hidden manna spoken of in Revelations 2 :17. or the ark in Deuteronomy. . . when the Bible was placed on the outside revealing the hidden manna inside . Aaron's rod and stones. written on both sides with no room for the oral traditions of mankind.
God knew beforehand that when Moses died men who play who is the greatest making the words of God as it is written to no effect.
Deuteronomy.31: 25-26 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?
No such thing as apostolic succession, a successional dying mankind.
Right from the foundation in a parable a picture using rivers to represent the gospel going out into the whole world . . 4 corners north, south, east and west . a city used to represent the bride of Christ encompassed with gold.
Genesis 2: 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison (Scattered seed Christ ): that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah,(city of pearls city of many nations) where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium (gates of pearl) and the onyx stone.
After each day God pronouncing his good approval . . .and it was good .
Gold is the only element set aside as a metaphor in parables to represent the unseen hidden things of the faith power) of Christ the golden power of God .
He gives us little of that power and calls us of "little faith" .Just enough to please him, Peter declared increase it or empower us.
Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
144,000 the golden number no man could count. the golden reed . Not the Menards or Home Depot (not what the eyes see. .) But what the parable reveals. .
I would offer. The golden measure is his immeasurable unfailing love of for us working in all born again from above.. he must increase . .
.
Bill
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I think Bro Bear was in referance to me, as i am a truck driver.
Rhema, it isn't that i am against confermations, rather, only against confirmations when the confirmations takes the place of faith. How is one supposed to grow up in wisdom if all they ever do is look at the past for answers. We learn from the past, aply it to today, but we also move on.
If we only live in the past, then eye for an eye is the only thing we comprehend.
If living in the past, looking for confirmations only, is our livelyhood. Then the planet is flat, and any other thinking is a heresy.
Operations, we can not do those. Nor space exploration. Nor new medicine. And transportation, horses only please.
We are surrounded with new creations all the time. God is a constant. Our Creator is a constent. But He did not create us to be stagnant.
How do we fix the delema for those who think they hear God, versus those who do hear God.
Discernment ........ a major area .... Gift of the Holy Spirit . Doesn't happen over night. People have to learn how to listen, and recognize the peace of God in thier hearts.
All hog wash to you, maybe. Many Christian's claim to have the Gifts of the Spirit. Including Charismatics, but many do not. And worse, choose to not use them if they do.
Sometimes, instant use of the Gifts happens. But the vast majority toss it aside. Like learning auto mechanics, or cooking. Does not happen over night. Takes time to learn.
Christians make huge errors because no one bothers. I can guarantee, few bother to tell thier pastors, pre-trib rapture, is not of the Lord. Once saved, always saved --- not of the Lord. The "Done" teaching ... not of the Lord. Catholics .... are thier brothers and sisters in the Lord.
All avalible to those who choose to listen to what the Holy Spirit tells them.
That person you spoke of, who killed because God told them so. We know killing is against God's commandments. When the "voice" you hear contradicts the scripture itself. Thou Shall not kill. Then it should be seriously questioned. Conformations, definately.
Many Christians would argue, Catholics. Not of the Lord. I would only ask them. What does Jesus and the Holy Spirit tell us about Mary ( Jesus Mother) [i say Jesus, as all Christains will tell you, Jesus is the auther of the Bible. The inspired writings of many]
Scripture States, Mary was inspired by the Holy Spirit to say, "From this day forward, all nations will call me Blessed."
Catholics refer to Mary as the Blessed Mother (of Jesus).
Jesus teaches His deciples to bless the bread and wine, saying "this Is my body", "this Is my blood". And then says, "do this in rememberance of me". Not only every Sunday, but every day priests say the mass, and repeat the blessing and breaking of the bread.
So even after all this time, Catholics still follow the bible
So going back to the beginning of all this. Discernment is a must. And trusting, putting our faith into the Holy Spirit, is also a must.
Bill
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I will come back to this letter later tonight. But i have a question. How do you classify the Two Witnesses of Revelations. They are called prophets by God, and yet are given authority to do as they wish?Thanks for the reply. .
I am repeating . They knew not of eating "doing the will" . Hearing it is not doing it. They had the rest of their lives to learn how to rightly divide the parables and understand what it means to eat meat as a spiritual understanding.
John 4:33-35 King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (the hidden manna spoken of in Revelation 2:17
I am not accusing you of doing it but making it aware. All believers are in a special class (born again) all receive the same reward "eternal life." . .
The word apostle simply means "sent messengers". Sent with thoughts not of their own self .. .called prophecy .
God forbids we give them any credit for the work he performs in them . There are still apostles (sent ones) today.
Apostles are considered as nothing no power (faith). The first listed apostle and martyr was Abel in Genesis 4
It would be no different then sending a young person to a store with a list and ask him not to add or subtract from it.
God causes the growth or increase if any .(1 Corinthian 3
I use gold as the good or golden measure. . Not literal seen as the measure of men .It represents the hidden manna spoken of in Revelations 2 :17. or the ark in Deuteronomy. . . when the Bible was placed on the outside revealing the hidden manna inside . Aaron's rod and stones. written on both sides with no room for the oral traditions of mankind.
God knew beforehand that when Moses died men who play who is the greatest making the words of God as it is written to no effect.
Deuteronomy.31: 25-26 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?
No such thing as apostolic succession, a successional dying mankind.
Right from the foundation in a parable a picture using rivers to represent the gospel going out into the whole world . . 4 corners north, south, east and west . a city used to represent the bride of Christ encompassed with gold.
Genesis 2: 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison (Scattered seed Christ ): that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah,(city of pearls city of many nations) where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium (gates of pearl) and the onyx stone.
After each day God pronouncing his good approval . . .and it was good .
Gold is the only element set aside as a metaphor in parables to represent the unseen hidden things of the faith power) of Christ the golden power of God .
He gives us little of that power and calls us of "little faith" .Just enough to please him, Peter declared increase it or empower us.
Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
144,000 the golden number no man could count. the golden reed . Not the Menards or Home Depot (not what the eyes see. .) But what the parable reveals. .
I would offer. The golden measure is his immeasurable unfailing love of for us working in all born again from above.. he must increase . .
.
I am interested in your answer.
Sincerely Bill
Bill
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Not all believers are born again. Just because a person is baptized in the water, does not mean that that person is also born again. For a person to be born again he must be baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is not the same as the water baptism.Thanks for the reply. .
I am repeating . They knew not of eating "doing the will" . Hearing it is not doing it. They had the rest of their lives to learn how to rightly divide the parables and understand what it means to eat meat as a spiritual understanding.
John 4:33-35 King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (the hidden manna spoken of in Revelation 2:17
I am not accusing you of doing it but making it aware. All believers are in a special class (born again) all receive the same reward "eternal life." . .
The word apostle simply means "sent messengers". Sent with thoughts not of their own self .. .called prophecy .
God forbids we give them any credit for the work he performs in them . There are still apostles (sent ones) today.
Apostles are considered as nothing no power (faith). The first listed apostle and martyr was Abel in Genesis 4
It would be no different then sending a young person to a store with a list and ask him not to add or subtract from it.
God causes the growth or increase if any .(1 Corinthian 3
I use gold as the good or golden measure. . Not literal seen as the measure of men .It represents the hidden manna spoken of in Revelations 2 :17. or the ark in Deuteronomy. . . when the Bible was placed on the outside revealing the hidden manna inside . Aaron's rod and stones. written on both sides with no room for the oral traditions of mankind.
God knew beforehand that when Moses died men who play who is the greatest making the words of God as it is written to no effect.
Deuteronomy.31: 25-26 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?
No such thing as apostolic succession, a successional dying mankind.
Right from the foundation in a parable a picture using rivers to represent the gospel going out into the whole world . . 4 corners north, south, east and west . a city used to represent the bride of Christ encompassed with gold.
Genesis 2: 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison (Scattered seed Christ ): that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah,(city of pearls city of many nations) where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium (gates of pearl) and the onyx stone.
After each day God pronouncing his good approval . . .and it was good .
Gold is the only element set aside as a metaphor in parables to represent the unseen hidden things of the faith power) of Christ the golden power of God .
He gives us little of that power and calls us of "little faith" .Just enough to please him, Peter declared increase it or empower us.
Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
144,000 the golden number no man could count. the golden reed . Not the Menards or Home Depot (not what the eyes see. .) But what the parable reveals. .
I would offer. The golden measure is his immeasurable unfailing love of for us working in all born again from above.. he must increase . .
.
John the Baptist stated I baptize you with water but there is one coming after me who will baptize you with fire and Power.
There are different types of Apostles just like there are different types of Christians. There are some who called themselves Apostles but are not, and there are those who are Apostles as you say sent. And then there are those who are the ones that God calls apostles, and these are much more than just sent. As they are servants, Shepherds, stewards, of the Lord.
The only problem i see in your post, the reference of the Apostolic succession. Please note, for 1500 years, there was no problem with it. And it was vigorously debated. Only when division came, and that division was over unrelated issues. It was after, some couple hundred years later, when everything Catholic was attacked.
So it is all among the modern thinking the attacks continue. Past 75 yrs.
Has there been any attempt in any of the churches to come together, other than the Catholics? Because our God is not a God of Division, but Unity. 3 individual entities that are 1. And are in harmony in thinking.
Let us be as our Father is. In unity with Him.
Bill
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I write an open forum because there is nothing to hide. And even if it were in closed space with God nothing is hidden.
I can tell you that for myself the Lord has had me remove demons out of people over the years, all of my experiences I've written down in a journal and have shared with certain people.
I have also helped others, priests and ministers, who have been having trouble with removing particular spirits because I am able to see and experience things that many others cannot.
There is more than one form of possession, but the most common problems are not The Possession itself but the person that is being worked on. It is often a matter of forgiveness, to be forgiven and to forgive. As this will be a huge Factor whether or not the spirit will be able to hold you or not.
R h e m a if you want to send me a PM that is fine. But I have nothing to hide
Thanks for the reply . Yes unity as it is written (sola scriptura)
I would agree not all Christians are Christians that say they are born again of the Holy Spirit . Just as not all Israel is not born again Israel. Or a true Jew is not one outwardly according to the flesh but one inwardly spirituality of the new born gain heart.
Born again of the Spirit of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit not water or fire that signifies the power of God. H20 of itself has no power to raise those for the dead. At the most it can is get a person wet and they will dry.
The word apostle "sent messenger" like that of the first listed apostle Abel. The word does not have different meanings or two kinds .
One kind of messenger sent by God with messages from God .
Not coming from the dying creation that would make them false prophets sent as false messengers.(false apostles) . The two kinds.
Light or Darkness? Two is the number that denotes God has spoken . He sent his messengers out two by two. called them into the ark two by two. Two by two represent the work of #1 our unseen father as God working in demonstrated by #2 the Son of man Jesus. The government of two a loving father as God working with strengthening the willing submissive Son Jesus to create the peace of God that surpaess our human reasoning ability Him freeling giving us his understanding
Abel a born again member of the bride of Christ the church. Abel is the first listed martyr alao during the first murder of the father of lies. His blood cries out today like all born again saints..
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, (Abel) and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
One thing we should be aware of I have observed is the use of the word kinds. In that way God would say created after kinds . What God calls one . . .the father of lies multiplies. What God calls two the lying tongue of the devil calls it all a one.
Satan the Legion of gods that some call patron saints turns things upside down as if inspired from dying earth. Their is one kind of true prophet (as it is written) sent as a messenger (apostle) .
In one way you could say Abel is still preaching. it was not his eternal words he did speak . Those thoughts of God looked ahead of the sufferings three days and nights demonstration to the glory . Jesus declaring yoked with the father "it is finished"
Faith the power of God not seen
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
I would offer throughout the Bible the word number two is used to denote God has spoken .Just as seven represent perfect or complete.
I think it has to do more with the law or interpretation power of faith . called the "law of faith" .
Like many doctrines satan calls what God calls one. . two or more. . . and what God calls multiples he reduces to one . He is the one god of this world know by legion . many false gods , prophets as false apostles.
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Faith representing the power of God Let there be and the good testimony the Light was good.
The two witnesses in Revelation are the same two spoken of in Mark 9.
Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.. . . (the father communing with the Son) .
The witness of the father using Moses to represent the the law as it is written .and the power of its good testimony the prophets as the light unto the path was very good .God good.
The two witnesses the father working in Jesus the son man .
God will send a thirst for hearing the gospel for a short while , then he will send rain. . the hearing. . represented by the two prophets .
Same loving principle found in Isaiah 8:20 . The law written by Moses . Elias represent the power to do it to the good pleasure of the father. . the good testimony.
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word,(one) it is because there is no light in them.
The dynamic dual the just (Moses) and the justifier (Elias )
Another example same doctrine (no man can serve two good teaching master as Lord of lords. King of kings ,Father of fathers .
Luke 16: 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; (the whole law) let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,(sola scriptura) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Bill
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I never refered to any apostle who are called to that as anti-apostle. I just said the is a difference between those called to be an apostle ( with a small 'a' and those called to be 'the' Apostles with a big 'A')
Bill
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I do not think you understand, God creates each of us, individually. With purpose, to become all that we can be in Him. But mankind also are free to choose. And that persons mother choose to abort her child. Murder an innocent.
Not sure what kind of difference you are asking "a" or "A" ? One sent is one sent. if another is sent it would seem to be anti. another kind
Bill
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Are you going to tell me that someone in your church that's called an apostle that is given title as apostle by the pastor or maybe even the pastor calls himself Apostle of God is going to equate himself to the 12 apostles I think not
Let me think so being an apostle means just to be sent wow that's a easy path right there. Maybe you should think about what the apostles did more than being sent preaching teaching being the servant and God knows all the other stuff being beaten whipped courage crucified upside down you going to tell me that your Apostles are willing to do all that too. I don't think so very few
Bill
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There are those who are mechanics , and others who really know mechanics
Hi Thanks. . Apostle, from my experience one of the most misunderstood, misinterpreted deceiving words in the Bible .
The father of lies clearly taking away the intended meaning "sent ones" .turning it into "highly venerable or puffed up ones." . that lord it over the faith of the non venerable .. we are warned of those who would seduce us to believe we do need a man seen to teach us. . a wile of the devil. (1 John 2:26-27)
The calling is not of one's Pastor. God calls those he is yoked with . . sends as apostles even today.
Twelve throughout the Bible is used to represent the authority of God's will. Twelve is a remnant of all God sends out two by two .Twelve apostles . . set aside for another doctrine.
The first sent one (apostle) began in the garden of Eden with Abel the first martyr.
And no it means more than being sent . it includes being sent with the gospel as it is written.The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Those sent with it add nothing to it or take anything away from it. . God is not served by human dying hands
All glory belongs to God he will not share his glory with those he sends . Its how beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel of peace ....again the power of God not power of the apostles.
The word apostle is defined in 1 Corinthians 3
1 Corinthians3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Even as the Lord gave to every man. Not as he gave to the twelve apostles alone.
1 Corinthians3: 6-9 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
It would seem to include oneself if given a desire by God through his living abiding word. we labor with them. . .both were given power to believe and please God the sender.
I think it saints in the past with us increases build up the gospel . . God's building .
It reminds me that not only is God our teacher comforter and guide but last not least as in first things first . . . "the gift of memory". He brings to each one's memory that which he has previously taught.(no self -taught man ) And will not move on until he gives his understanding to his children of light..
Coming from a slow learner like myself I dropped out .I was to embarrassed to raise my hand. I have some confidence today . I think ? LOL
John 14:25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
His memory the eternal hard drive.
Bill
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Has God created all things then all numbers are also important because he created them.
For myself I'm not really hung up on all the numbers. I mean there are some numbers that I think our substantial like specifically stating 153 for the number of fish that were caught by the apostles. I found out later that there were 153 species of fish in that lake or the Sea of Galilee.
And of course there are numbers like two and seven and six in a variety of other numbers that I used in Scripture that have certain meanings on but as far as really getting into it it's not really my cup of tea.
Some people get into numerology which I am not into, and there are others that are in the numbers and they play the games like whoa Ronald Reagan's name is 666 he must be the devil which is bologna. Jumping to conclusions over silly things.
If we use the number two for everything that has to do with the witnesses or Apostles or whatever then you would say well the second commandment must be about the witnesses and the second book of John and the second book of Peter and second Corinthians because those all have number twos to them.
Well like I said I'm just not into all the numbers. All I'm interested in doing is talking about the importance of God's love that everybody dismisses, and yet is more important than your faith. Because without it you're not going into heaven
Hi thanks
I am familiar with a few also . . (two )represents God who is pure (seven) has spoken as to the end of a matter (three). (Four)time of trial or four corners of the earth universal .Thousand an unknown or concealed... etc
I don't think of it as being hung up rather than built up on numbers using metaphors in the signified tongue of God as parables . Which without Christ spoke not beginning in Genesis through Revelation..
Again parables do not destroy the simplicity of salvation .(Christ having mercy mixed with grace empowering us ) . But as honey it does enrich the gospel our daily bread, called hidden manna in Revelation 2:17 he warns us not to eat too much or he will spew us out. and hide the hidden manna the mysteries made know by parables. .
A little honey can aid for a quick pick me upper. (energy drink)
1 Samuel 14:27 But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.
Again don't get to carried away but again without parable using number words as metaphors Christ spoke not .
Its not the same as numerology
Bill
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Is that all you got out of what i wrote ?
Sorry no . Usually from my experience people do not look to numbers used as metaphors in parables . I think it is because of how they are used if they do not understanding the meaning many give up and look to the historical as a literal understanding. .They must be mixed when looking for pearls of God's wisdom.
Believers that are revealed the understanding can know God has hidden it from lost .In that way he desires disciples that will learn as he reveals the meanings. . . giving us ears to hear.
I agree with what you said . But you did say; as far as really getting into it it's not really my cup of tea.
Two represents God has thought, the witness God has spoken. . and therefore spoke and the unseen will was reveal. The law of faith. Christ working in with Christians .
Two does not represent literal numbers in parables. Not second commandment or second book
Like two heads of a coin one seen the other hidden . That parable . . give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to the lord what it his speaks of wisdom. One that falls like rain and produces life. the other earthly of the devil the spirit of death. .
Two a ministry (family nation) . The father and the Son the government of God. Two the husband and the wife, the earthly government of dying mankind..
John 8:17-19 King James VersionIt is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also
No Son of man (temporal seen.) . . no father (eternal unseen ). . . . . . . no witness. . . no creation. No God that bears witness.
