Can i not be Christian and Saved?

[Bill]

Hi Bill,

Perhaps you could start a thread and give some examples. ( I find the TPT ... the "Passion Translation" to be pretty problematic.)

Thanks,
Rhema

( If you do, let me know.)

I will have to dig into my mom's library lol. She has bibles from the 1800's

 

[Curtis]

With all due respect, @Curtis, there were and there still are in the Church today people who have taken the time to become well educated and actually do have a "better knowledge" than anyone else

Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God in faith, and he will give it to them. Higher knowledge is not earned it is freely given by Godby His Spirit.

 

[Curtis]

Certainly Paul can be said to teach "a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, and emotional approach to truth without using the scriptures," since he wrote most of them.

No amount of "mystical, intuitive, subjective, or inward emotional" truth comes from God because the Church walks by faith, not by sight.

 

[Rhema]

There is a series of books out titled the Sunday Sermons of the Founding Fathers. It is an old series. Do not know if they have been reprinted in recent years. However, these are a collection of sermons that were written down during the first 100 years of the church.

Written in Latin or Greek?

You are right to say, there are different kinds of faith.

My apologies, I'm not sure that's what I meant.

In saying that the word faith, as used today, has five different definitions, I mean that various people have differing definitions of the word... today.

PISTIS (the Greek transliteration) is the noun form of PISTEUW, the verb form, of the same concept (BELIEVE, BELIEF). {I'm sure you know this.}

Most people today would not see "faith" to mean the exact same thing as "Belief," but that was the definition 2,000 years ago. Belief is that which people believe. And yet there are reasons why one should believe, which is why the Gospel named Matthew readily points to the fulfillment of certain prophecies and John says look at these miracles.

The introduction of the English word "faith" created all sorts of accretion of meanings that just didn't exist at the time of Xhrist.

I have an essay here somewhere... maybe I'll actually start a thread.

Rhema

Nice to see you back btw.

Well, health and other obligations are still taking up a lot of time. I'll get to the rest of it soon. Thank you.

 

[Rhema]

Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

This seem to imply that you believe there was a single form of Gnosticism. There was not. There were many types of Gnostic Christian sects, similar to Josephus stating that there were Four types of Judaism at the time of Xhrist (and I'm not sure he included Philo).

Lost Christianities

The early Christian Church was a chaos of contending beliefs. Some groups of Christians claimed that there was not one God but two or twelve or thirty. Some believed that the world had not been created by God but by a lesser, ignorant deity. Certain sects maintained that Jesus was human but not...

global.oup.com

From my studies, your claim that the Gnostic Christians believed themselves to be a "privileged class" and "elevated" above others is simply incorrect. Might you have accredited sources to support that claim?

Most non-Charismatics or non-Pentecostals utter that same kind of slur against the Charismatics or Pentecostals when indeed, Charismatics and Pentecostals just have a completely different experience that leads them to a different understanding of Christianity. I'm not trying to open that discussion, but am merely using this as an example to state that Gnostic Christianities (plural) have a different "take" on what various scriptures mean.

And YES, Gnostic Sects did indeed have scripture (cf. the entire Nag Hammadi library), which is ultimately what led the Proto-Orthodox to champion their own canon (cf. pg. 77 The Canon of the New Testament; Bruce M. Metzger; Oxford reprint 2009).

Are you sure that you can "suss out" the depth of meaning of the teachings of Jesus by using your brain alone?

If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God in faith, and he will give it to them. Higher knowledge is not earned it is freely given by Godby His Spirit.

That begs the question, just what the hey do you mean by "Higher knowledge" ?? Wisdom ?? (Hardly....) SOPHIA and GNOSIS are not the same concepts, although one might make a case that SOPHIA is about how best to apply GNOSIS.

I've NEVER known of anyone to have been miraculously given an understanding of Greek without having studied the language, which is why the Passion Translation is extremely problematic. (The translator claims God given GNOSIS of Koine Greek.)

Kindly,
Rhema
Although I am a bit disappointed that you've decided to not address my questions. And indeed, they were questions.

No amount of "mystical, intuitive, subjective, or inward emotional" truth comes from God because the Church walks by faith, not by sight.

BINGO... and right there we see the Kierkegaardian definition of faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago. And... Jesus might disagree with you...

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.​

(John 10:38 KJV)​

 

[Bill]

No amount of "mystical, intuitive, subjective, or inward emotional" truth comes from God because the Church walks by faith, not by sight.

Curtis usually I agree with a lot of things that you say but this one, that the church walks by faith, is not accurate for most of its members. If we consider everyone that goes to church as members of THE church.

I have argued the point in the past, that most Christians today do not even know what faith really is. That the church itself is not a faith-based church, rather it is a confirmation based Church.

There are few believers in this day and age, that recognize God's voice within them, and do the will of God, without looking for some confirmation that it was God in the first place. In other words if God tells you the sky is blue, do you then ask someone else first " is the sky blue" before believing what God has already told you.

What happens then, is that you are putting God in a backseat, and believing in the confirmation versus The Creator.

 

[Bill]

No amount of "mystical, intuitive, subjective, or inward emotional" truth comes from God because the Church walks by faith, not by sight.

Also in my own personal experience, which is mostly spiritual. Everything and I do mean everything I do is based on faith. I don't get the luxury of seeing things so clearly with my own eyes like I see a van or a person or a store as if it were my own eyes, rather I see you with my heart and my mind. And those images that I see I know in my heart are real, and I can recognize the colors of what I see and the shapes of what I see with my heart and mind but it is all interior just as God's voice comes to me from the interior. There's no real way to explain the voice of God if you don't experience Him.

 

[complete]

I see people hear professing to be saved by the grace of God.
But then say they are not christian,that they dont act like chrristians,and even that they hate christians.
The way scripture reads,i would think if claim not to be christian,dont act like a christian,dont like christians period.....you are lost and undone and a fearful judgments awaits.

Hello @lentz,

Some believers take exception to the title, 'Christian'. A word is of no consequence where salvation by grace through faith in the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ is concerned. It is a work of God in Christ Jesus, and is above such trivialities.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

I would offer first and foremost faith is a work of God in us..

Gnosticism is simply the work of adding oral traditions as private interpretations of so called venerable mankind . Called a "law of the fathers" in the new testament.. Those who oppose sola scriptura all things written in the law with or and the prophets .

In doing so it takes away the faith as Christ's labor of love. Faith as the power of God is a work of God.

I would repeat. . . Faith the power of God (let there be) is a work of Christ that works in us to "both" (the key) #1 reveal the will of God and #2 empower us to perform it to his good pleasure .

Below the gospel in a nutshell. Again " both" . . . two, reveal and empower to do Christ's good pleasure .

Jesus the Son of man did the will of the father with delight . . .some like Jonas were dragged vomited out of the mouth fish and wanted to die when moved to perform the good will of our Father .

Philippians 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

In that way no man can serve two good teaching masters coming from one God as Lord of lords .

Like all doctrines we must search for the "foundation" of the matter. . . the why for ?????

Destroy the foundation of a matter. . a new foundation as a oral tradition can begin making the first without effect. .

Exodus 31:17-18 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.


Exodus 32;1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, ( plural) which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him

God hewn out two stones and with his finger as a will. He declared his will on both sides purposely leaving no room for the oral traditions of dying mankind .

Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

Mentioning it twice to emphasize (it is written ) or to the law #1 and its testimony 2# it was good as the declared labor of His love. .

Having been made to no effect the oral tradition of those who gathered themselves together as a oral tradition (not called by God)

God moved Moses to destroy the first copy confirming they were made to no effect by the oral traditions (Gnosticism) The second witness this time he moved Moses to hew out two tablets. . . two = one . . . Again two is the witness God has spoken ( Let there be and it was good ) developing the law of faith .Not a theory of faith as a oral tradition of mankind..


Exodus 34:1-4 King James Version And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount. And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

 

[Curtis]

Curtis usually I agree with a lot of things that you say but this one, that the church walks by faith, is not accurate for most of its members.

Faith must be the very bases of Christianity for without faith it is impossible to please God, and everything we say or do that is not of faith is a sin.
God always confirms his word when we have true faith in signs (works) in our life or in the life of others around us.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[Curtis]

BINGO... and right there we see the Kierkegaardian definition of faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago. And... Jesus might disagree with you...

Gal 1:11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning.
Gal 1:12 I received my message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it by direct revelation from Jesus Christ. (NLT)

2Pe 1:20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding,
2Pe 1:21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (NLT)

 

[Bill]

Faith must be the very bases of Christianity for without faith it is impossible to please God, and everything we say or do that is not of faith is a sin.
God always confirms his word when we have true faith in signs (works) in our life or in the life of others around us.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

It depends how you reguard faith, because faith without Love is nothing.

You could have all the faith in the world, but without love, you have nothing. Because the love from your heart, compassion, comes from God.

Scripture does not say God is faith. It says God is Love.

It is the Holy Spirit that gives faith. The Holy Spirit Always leads us to Jesus, and our faith always leads to our salvation which is Jesus. But you have to recieve Jesus into your heart, to go to the Father who is in Heaven

 

[Bill]

Faith must be the very bases of Christianity for without faith it is impossible to please God, and everything we say or do that is not of faith is a sin.
God always confirms his word when we have true faith in signs (works) in our life or in the life of others around us.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

There are some who please God, not by faith but by love. Pagans, who do not know scripture, yet do what scripture says. Love your nieghbor as yourself, and in some cases lay down thier lives for others they do not know. Thier names are already written in heaven.

 

[Br. Bear]

@Rhema

Greetings,

Most people today would not see "faith" to mean the exact same thing as "Belief," but that was the definition 2,000 years ago. Belief is that which people believe.

that word, 'belief' is in itself quite 'interesting', especially in the Light of the Gospel.

a bit like 'love' being a doing word.... in fact, if one looks at the places where we get that word [faith] in English, we find 'love' to be it's 'root'.

Something nice about Jesus being the vine, is there not?


Bless you and yours ....><>

 

[Curtis]

There are some who please God, not by faith but by love.

Heb 11:6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. (NLT)

 

[Curtis]

Scripture does not say God is faith. It says God is Love.

It is impossible to please God (love, God is love) without faith because faith works by love (God)

It is impossible to please love (God, God is love) without faith. (Heb 11:6)

 

[Garee]

@Rhema

Greetings,



that word, 'belief' is in itself quite 'interesting', especially in the Light of the Gospel.

a bit like 'love' being a doing word.... in fact, if one looks at the places where we get that word [faith] in English, we find 'love' to be it's 'root'.

Something nice about Jesus being the vine, is there not?


Bless you and yours ....><>

Exactly . . God lovingly doing work. . a labor. referred to as the "law of faith" (law of understanding) given to mankind . "Let there be" and the fruit of the labor what the eyes see it was the things seen and it was good . (God alone good)
God is love and not that he can as a labor work it out faithfully.the power of all who bless the truth as it is written.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Christ love faithfully working in us to both will and do His good pleasure . Same love of God we can have towards each other.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

His patience as the first attribute of his love. His love conditionally builds up. If not patient "long sufferings" it can't be kind . God keeps no record of wrong suffered in a hope of leading to the end love believes all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

We can Love Him because he first empowers us .The power of Love to save and keep saved till the end.. . .

Revelation 2:2-7 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (believe God not seen) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes,(believe mankind seen) which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[Bill]

Heb 11:6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. (NLT)

True enough. Can't argue with that.

Maybe I should have said that pagans who do things out of love and do not know Christ as we do, experience the grace of God in a way that we do not fully understand

 

[Rhema]

There are few believers in this day and age, that recognize God's voice within them, and do the will of God, without looking for some confirmation that it was God in the first place. In other words if God tells you the sky is blue, do you then ask someone else first " is the sky blue" before believing what God has already told you.

I'd appreciate a better example, if you could be so kind.

Rhema

Some people "that recognize god's voice within them" hear him saying shoot these random people, e.g. the mass shooter in Philadelphia a few days ago. In other words, if god told him to go shoot those people, you SHOULD WANT him to ask someone else first before believing what god had already told him.

Because war is managed by due ordering: and there shall be safety where there are many counsels.​

(Proverbs 24:6 DRB)​

 

[Rhema]

Gal 1:11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning.
Gal 1:12 I received my message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it by direct revelation from Jesus Christ. (NLT)

2Pe 1:20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding,
2Pe 1:21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (NLT)

PFFFT...

G4102 πίστις PISTIS does not mean "Faith." It's an exceedingly poor word choice. And the way you used that word (faith) in that post is pure Kierkegaardian in nature.

Own it.

Rhema

(Do you really think that weaponizing scripture against me has any impact whatsoever? Pffft.)